about to become the longest in american history, president trump has repeated his claim that only a wall on the mexican border can protect the us from illegal immigrants and crime. on a visit to southern texas, he again threatened to declare a national emergency. felix tshisekedi has been declared winner of the presidential elections in the democratic republic of congo. the highly influential catholic church, which posted thousands of election observers, says its own tally doesn't match the official result. the runner—up, martin fayulu, called the result a scam and told the bbc he would mount a legal challenge. british tennis player andy murray, who had hip surgery a year ago, has said next week's australian open could be his last tournament. an emotional murray told reporters in australia he had been in a lot of pain for about 20 months. now on bbc news, it is hardtalk, with stephen sackur. welcome to hardtalk,

i'm stephen sackur. brexit is tearing at the fabric of british politics. prime minister theresa may's proposed deal is hated by many in her conservative party. it may well be rejected in a parliamentary vote next week. but the opposition labour party is riven by division too. a clear majority of labour members seem to want a second referendum as a pathway to reversing brexit. but party leaderjeremy corbyn says brexit can't be stopped. my guest is that the leader of unite, britain's biggest trade union and biggest donor to labour, len mccluskey. could brexit break the left apart? len mccluskey, welcome to hardtalk.

thank you. i think nobody would argue that brexit is the defining issue in britain today, perhaps the biggest decision the country has had to make for a generation and more. would you agree it has proved to be extraordinarily difficult to find a coherent position in the left, the labour movement? well, i think the reality, stephen, is, of course, two and a half years ago your question was spot on, the decision which the british people were asked to make was a defining decision. my union campaigned strongly, more than anybody else, more money, more resources, on the platform of remain and reform.

unfortunately, we lost, and therefore we have a situation where the british people have decided that they want to leave the european union. the big issue therefore is not that it's the end of the world, because it isn't, but what kind of agreement can you strike in order to leave the european union? unfortunately, we have had a conservative government that has effectively wasted two years arguing among itself. well, let's go through this step—by—step. not so long ago, in an interview with a german magazine, just actually before christmas, jeremy corbyn said brexit cannot be stopped, quite boldly and simply. yeah. do you agree? i think he was making the point... but would you agree? i think he was making the point that the electorate, having decided that we should leave, article 50 having been triggered, he was effectively saying, we have to get on with it, it can't be stopped and we need now to concentrate our energies, all our energies in trying to strike a deal that can be acceptable to our nation. but, of course, it can be stopped,

you know it can be stopped, everybody knows it can be stopped, it can be stopped because the british government could unilaterally revoke article 50, which would mean that we stay in the eu, the european courts have already ruled on that, or indeed the british government could seek a delay of the leaving of the european union to give time, for example, for a second referendum. so to say it can't be stopped is factually wrong. well, they can certainly delay the question of article 50. and it's my view that they should delay it. at the moment we're in a position where it looks as though the prime minister's deal is going to be defeated in parliament. and then there's a number of sequences that we have to go through, a vote of no confidence, a vote by parliament as to whether or not it's acceptable for a no deal, which would be catastrophic in my opinion. and therefore there needs to be a solution and a way out of this.

i'm hoping that the government will accept that there needs to be an extension of article 50 to give more time for debate and discussion. so did corbyn misspeak then, when he said brexit can't be stopped ? i don't think he did. no, i don't think he did, and the first question you asked me was, is there any cohesion in a policy on the left for brexit? well, 18 months ago, jeremy corbyn put to the british people a manifesto that gave a way out, he came within touching distance of power, had corbyn won that election, i believe now we would be out of the european union, or by the 29th of march, but we would have an agreement, an agreement that united the nation, both the 48% and the 52%. well, let's just pick away at that a little bit. jeremy corbyn says he has the basis for an agreement with the eu 27. he says, frankly, if he were in power, he could deliver it very quickly. that patently is not credible, because we had the president of the commission, jean—claude juncker, and every single head of government

of the eu 27 saying that the deal that theresa may, after tortured negotiation, the deal she finally struck with the eu 27 was notjust the best deal available, but the only deal available. no, i don't accept that. i mean, the reality is that, had labour won the last election, then i believe we would now have an agreement, because there was a different approach from corbyn than theresa may. if you recall back then, theresa may took a very aggressive stance, as though we were going to tell the 27... you can't rewrite history, mr mccluskey, and as i say to you, in the last weeks and months the message from europe's been simple, this is the best deal, this is the only deal. so that is where we are. so when labour says, oh well, we'll go back to brussels, we'll negotiate a completely different deal... i think they can. patently they can't, not only because the eu... you're making the mistake of assuming that europe would treat a labour party and a labour government in a different way that they treated

a conservative government, and that's rewriting history. because when you say that this deal is being thrashed out after torturous negotiations, that's patent nonsense. we didn't have any negotiations. we had no negotiations at all, which was a clarity, other than a conservative government who were trying to be aggressive, and we finally are told that, in the final weeks, as we ran up and ran out of time, they'd thrashed out 2a hours a day, working hard to thrash out a deal, a deal that isn't a deal. what labour would have done, had they been in power, they would have approached europe and said, our people have decided we want to come out and we want to respect that, but we want a close relationship to you. we want access — stephen, let me make this point, we want access to a tariff free single market, so do europe!

let's talk about where we are today. there's no point either of us dwelling too much on what might have happened in the past. where we are today is that there is an extraordinary rift developing between people such as yourself and jeremy corbyn, the most influential figures at the top of the leadership of the labour movement, and the memberships, both of your union and the labour party, who, poll after poll, revealed in the last few weeks, want a second referendum, they want the chance, now that they've seen what deals are available, they want the chance to vote now on whether to push ahead with brexit or not. well, what opinion polls are we talking about? are these the same opinion polls that said that remain would win comfortably? are these the same opinion polls has said that labour would be annihilated 18 months ago, and it might be the end of the labour party? the problem with opinion polls is that they have no credibility anymore. don't they, in your view, no credibility? when all of the polling agencies, i'm just looking at one, the most recent one i've seen, january two, yougov poll of 1,034 members, 72% support

a second referendum. jyust18%, it's not even close, 18%. .. but you've just seen another opinion poll this week indicating that 56% of labour members are happy with the manner in — in the way that corbyn has dealt with this whole situation, so... you represent unite, you've got more than i million members, you are the biggest trade union in britain. listen to one young unite member, elsie greenwood, who wrote this open letter to you: "members that len mccluskey is meant to represent, a big majority of them, young people such as myself, think our union should back a people's vote. it is clear that decisions regarding brexit go past party lines." stephen. hang on. it's important to finish this. "unitejobs, my union members, colleagues, members‘jobs are at risk, and it is a fact that people, including len,

need to recognise. " i am delighted that someone like elsie is a member of my union and is active. more power to her elbow. i have 1.4 million members, and so reading that... again, as far as we can tell, from all of the evidence, a clear majority of your members wanta... that's not true! well, it is true. no, it isn't true! i'm the bestjudge of what our members want, because we do constantly, over two years, not an opinion poll, i don't know who that was, we have had a brexit watch since the referendum results. and at that time, and right through, there doesn't appear to be any great movement within what our members say. last year at my policy conference, 2.5 hours of debate, high—level contributions, and we arrived at a particular policy. our policy desperately is to have a general election, that's the people's vote that i want. a general election that will enable the british people to make a judgement on going forward,

including on the question of brexit. yeah, but as you know, going back to the world of reality, it is not like the labour party and other opposition members of parliament can force a general election. i don't know that that's true yet, stephen, i do not know that that's true. there are sequences to go through. there will be votes of no—confidence. we don't know what the dup are saying if this deal is being forced through. we don't know whether they will withdraw their support for the government, and that will make it impossible for the government to continue. you ‘re right, we're in the realm of uncertainty, but again, i want to pick away at the way in which the labour movement has been divided on this issue, so let's move away from opinion polls, let'sjust look at what other people in similar positions to yours have concluded. for example, tuc leader, that is, the amalgamation of trade unions in the uk, frances o'grady, she in her new year's message made it quite plain that as far as she was concerned,

britain's workers need a second referendum. that is the only way, she said, to protect members‘ jobs. some of the biggest unions, your colleagues in the gmb, for example, have now made it their official union policy that there should be a second referendum. why is your conclusion so different from all of theirs? because both the gmb and the tuc and unite have a common policy that we want a people's vote, and we're calling it a general election, and that's precisely what the tuc policies is, and my colleagues in the gmb, i'm very close to their leader, want exactly the same thing. now, you have to go through a number of sequential steps in order to see whether or not that should happen. the truth of the matter is, i don't often agree with jacob rees—mogg, but he said just a few weeks back, when nearly 40% of conservative mps voted against the prime minister, he said it would be normal convention for the prime minister to step down. i believe that is still an issue. the prime minister has lost authority, credibility, and her government has lost

the right to govern. now, in those circumstances, labour has to pursue its policies. sure, but if labour cannot deliver on a general election... then, then... ..then you surely are duty—bound to consider the other option. of course, of course. but unlike many of your colleagues, you do not want to talk about a second referendum on... no, stephen, that's not strictly true. i wrote an article just recently saying that a second referendum now looks very likely. it's not the preferred option for our movement. but my policy... a second referendum for you now looks very likely? in terms of the political developments, i made a statement that that is emerging. my union's policy is, and i have... hang on, can i stop you just for a sec, because if you think a second referendum is very

likely, your phrase, now, what would unite's position be going into a second referendum? if there was a referendum, if there was a referendum requiring people to vote on remaining in the european union, my union's position would be to remain in europe. but the reality at the moment... so... no... well, this is... no, stephen, well, what i'm saying is really important for me. labour ran an election 18 months ago, and the manifesto was clear, it would accept the democratic vote of the referendum and it would take us out of europe, but it would negotiate a deal. the mess that we are in is because this government, and theresa may clinging onto power, has put us into this situation. there's a vacuum. colleagues are now talking about norway plus. because of the vacuum, people are desperate. the one thing that unites everybody at the moment, or two things, firstly, that the deal is not good enough, and secondly, there should not be a no deal.

now, in the situation where, day by day, things change, my union will look at these developments very closely. that's our policy. yes, so, so... and we will make decisions. my executive will make... if i may say so, you have made a major change. i'm looking at september 2018, you declared that remaining in the eu must not be an option in any new referendum. are you telling me today that you think a referendum is very likely and if it does come, your union will advocate remain? is if we have a referendum. and the likelihood of it changes, you are quoting me in september, the likelihood of it now being a referendum has waned dramatically. if by some...

surely you mean not waned but increased? you don't think the referendum chances have increased? i think what is happening is that the government stance has shifted dramatically as well. i think where we are at is that the sequencing of what we are going through will reach a point where the deal is rejected, there will be a number of other options including today we're talking about an amendment to the finance bill that means you can not have a no deal brexit. that has to bring with it an extension of article 50 and then debate and discussion must take place in relation to what the options are. an option of a general election is still very much on the cards. is it not the truth that behind all of this detail and the complications, and you are absolutely right — there is so much uncertainty — isn't the truth that you and your close ally jeremy corbyn actually do not want written to be in the eu at all? you should have come with me on the campaign during the referendum.

i went all over the country, as did jeremy corbyn on the same platform, remain and reform. the idea that europe is a panacea for working people is not true. but that is my point. you and jeremy corbyn feel that you can do deliver your socialist project for britain much more effectively outside the eu. the reality is what we argued for was a reformed europe. and we have been vindicated. we have the rise of the fascist and neofascist right wing right across europe. we have austria, italy, and neofascist running their governments now. our appeal to our european counterparts was austerity, which is crippling the whole of europe including britain, needs to be changed, otherwise people will look for... if you are suggesting that the political colour of the eu

is increasingly right and centre right and antipathetic to the interests of the labour movement and you are also telling me that you see no sign of the eu prepared to take on what you would regard as necessary reform , we come back to this point, and jeremy corbyn put it in a guardian interview recently where he said "i do not want to be told by somebody else," meaning the eu, "that we can not use state aid in order to develop industry in this country." so why not be honest and say you know what? we are done with the eu. it is overfor us. obviously we have had a referendum result that tells us we are done with the eu and we are coming out from it. we very rarely have referendums. referendums are not like general elections. a referendum is a specific question on the specific issue. we have had that and therefore saying that we are out of the eu does not negate the fact that what labour would have done is take

us out of the eu but we would have negotiated a deal that would have united the nation. what is totally disingenuous at the moment is the prime minister trying to say she is just carrying out the wishes of the british people. she has done nothing to placate the 52% who voted leave for two main reasons, the forgotten towns and cities that have been de—industrialised. the conservative government says nothing about investing into those communities. and the whole issue of migrant labour, the second issue that caused people to vote, the conservative party have said absolutely nothing about it. let's stick with that for a moment. i know you are not so keen on polling evidence but a lot of evidence suggests that one of the key reasons that the uk voted to leave the eu was that they were worried about migration. they felt too many people were coming into the country,

not least from the eu, and wanted to do something about it. so you are saying that the tories are offering nothing on that, what is labour offering? labour offers labour market regulations. jeremy corbyn has said when we come out of europe, if labour were in government, the free movement of labour would stop. however, it will be replaced by mobility of labour. because if you are negotiating access to a tariff—free single market then you have to deal with one of the other fundamentals of the eu, the free movement of labour. call it a mobility of labour agreement but it would be based on labour market regulations. at the moment it is not migrant workers who are to blame, they are like you and me, they want to make a better life for themselves and their family. it is the greedy bosses who use migrant labour to undercut pay and conditions and caused so much distress amongst our communities. you want to be in the closest of close relationships with the single market but you want to completely end the principle of free movement of labour. i struggle to see how the eu would buy that. of course it would. i remember a discussion, i don't often quote tony blair, but i remember an interview he did

a few months back when he said look, we can stay in europe because we can still reach an agreement over the free movement of labour. i have spoken to many european leaders about it. the reality is of course you can have labour market regulations. if you negotiate that in the deal. i want to keep this as simple as possible. in a socialist corbyn—led labour government would there be a pledge to cut migration numbers? it is not about cutting migration. so no pledge? what pledge has a government ever given on immigration that it has ever come anywhere near to? it is dishonest. on the one thing aboutjeremy corbyn is that he is not dishonest. the situation will be under a labour

government there will be labour market regulations that would stop the abuse of working people including migrant workers. the result of that, in my opinion is a reduction of migrant labour coming into the country because if greedy bosses can't use and abuse them, they will not call upon them. just another thought about the future of a notional corbyn—led socialist labour government in a post—brexit britain. you say that is inevitable, brexit will happen. every single economic analysis run by the bank of england, imf, whoever, all independent analysts say that whatever form it takes, brexit will be a net negative to the uk economy. it will be smaller after brexit than it would have been had brexit not happen. in that context, how does john mcdonell, the putative chancellor, deliver on all the spending promises, the socialist building infrastructure and investment programmes that he has promised? john gave the best answer when he was asked that question. he said he found the magic money

tree that was planted in the cayman islands. he was going to uproot it and return it to the uk. that is £40 billion a year robbed from you and i, from the treasury, by greedy fatcats. .. and that will build a socialist britain? of course it would. really? £40 billion a year? damn right it would. and the reality is that labour has given promises that ordinary working people are interested in. a disorderly no deal brexit could cost up to 8 or 9% of gdp over the next ten years. how all $40 billion from offshore tax accounts going to solve that? i agree, a disorderly brexit would be catastrophic. that is why we oppose it. we do not want a no deal brexit.

but the stance of the labour party today makes that all the more likely. you could be the enablers of such a brexit. that is so facile an accusation. it amazes me. the reality is that a conservative prime minister gave us the referendum and a conservative prime minister, david cameron, that did it in a short term of time — 12 weeks — when we were telling him "give us a lot longer." in scotland they had 18 months. it is a conservative prime minister in terms of theresa may who has now wasted two years with internal divisions and suddenly commentators want to try and blamejeremy corbyn for bringing about brexit. it is unfair and wrong. if labour was in power now we would have an agreement with europe that would unite our nation and would make certain that our economy, rather than slipping backwards with the investment and regional investment banks and national investment banks with the ability to invest on manufacturing, we would have an economy that was growing with real and decent jobs, well—paid jobs and not the precarious race to the bottom that we currently have. we have run out of time but i thank you very much for being on hardtalk. hello there.

it won't be as cold to start this morning as it has been recent mornings. it will still be chilly, temperatures close to freezing in a few spots but not the widespread frost that we've had this week. and actually with high pressure close by, it looks mostly dry with a little bit of sunshine, but we've changed the air across the uk so behind this warm weather front on thursday, we had the arrival of some slightly milder atlantic air. but that weather front is pushing towards the alpine regions to give more heavy snow through the day ahead. there are red warnings out for the alps, that's the highest level warning, and indeed parts of norway, but across our shores, it's a generally milder air mass, if you like, during the next couple of days. which means that for most of us, it won't start quite as chilly. the fog will take a wee while to clear this morning. as i say, it is largely frost—free. those temperatures are not too many degrees away from freezing so it will still be chilly, the odd spot of frost out in the countryside and the fog to lift, low cloud as well sitting on the hills courtesy of that weak weather front.

there'll still be a weak front around the northern isles with drizzle here and patchy rain and drizzle in the north and west but there will be brighter skies coming through, perhaps southern and eastern scotland, the north—east of england and temperatures in the south in particular will be 3 or 4 degrees higher than during the day on thursday. temperatures hold up through the coming night because we've got these weather fronts edging southwards. quite substantial rain in the north and it peters off as it comes southwards. it does hold the temperatures up above frost levels again. but the wind picks up and the wind will be a feature as we go through the weekend. the wind coming in from the west or north—west maintains relatively mild weather for this time of year but there will be rain initially in the south and then showers or longer spells of rain following in the north and west but very little rain coming further southwards. that brisk north—west wind becomes quite strong, particularly in the north, taking the edge of temperatures which otherwise are, as you can see, well up from what they have been in recent days, but there could be quite a lot of rain coming in through friday night, saturday. saturday night and sunday across northern and western

parts of scotland. it looks quite wet here. this low pressure accelerating across the north sea, it will just tighten those isobars and strengthen the wind. we could fairly widespread gales over the coasts and hills. quite a blustery old day. and more rain to come. again, even though the wind is blowing further south, it should blow some holes in the cloud and again temperatures at 11 or12, taking the edge offjust a little by the brisk wind. bye for now. this is the briefing — i'm david eades. our top stories: a tearful andy murray says next week's australian open could be his last tournament — he says he's in too much pain after hip surgery. praise from the german to the greek as angela merkel commends alexis tsipras

for leading his country out of a very difficult period after nine years of austerity. at least 16 people are killed — and there's more brutal winter weather ahead for parts of central and eastern europe. in business, no pay day today. hundreds of thousands of us goverment staff won't get their wages today as the budget standoff stretches