a saudi prince tells the bbc donald trumps decision to pull us troops out of syria is a negative developement. prince turki al—faisal made the comments as the us secretary of state mike pompeo arrived in riyadh to discuss the pullout as part of a tour of middle east allies. exceptionally heavy snowy in central europe is expected to continue causing severe disruption. in austria, an avalanche killed three german tourists, and a fourth person is missing. and this story is trending on bbc.com. the singer robbie williams has reportedly been accused of blasting his next door neighbour — led zeppelin‘sjimmy page — with heavy metal music, including black sabbath and deep purple. the two fell out over williams‘ plans to build a basement swimming pool at his home. that's all. stay with bbc world news. now on bbc news, hardtalk‘s stephen sackur speaks to writerjonathan coe. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen

sackur. in case you hadn't noticed, britain is in the grip of a protracted melt down known as brexit. to leave or to remain? it has divided families, generations and communities. everyone seems to be shouting. no—one seems to be listening. well, that's not quite true. my guest today, jonathan coe, has been listening to and writing compelling fiction about contemporary britain the decades. so can this novelist help us understand ourselves and brexit rather than a parliament full of politicians? jonathan coe, welcome to hardtalk.

thank you. your latest novel is called middle england. now, it is not just about brexit, called middle england. now, it is notjust about brexit, at brexit sits at the centre of the story. —— but brexit. was that by design and intent, or was it simply that you couldn't avoid it, even if you want to do? i'd think with the kind of novel i had already told myself i was going to write there was no avoiding brexit. it is a novel which features characters from two of my earlier looks, the rotters club and closed circle. closed circle was published in 2004, i haven't written about these characters in 12 years, they were at the back of my mind. i

a lwa ys they were at the back of my mind. i always say that when i put the final piece of punctuation in a novel, the characters are dead to me, and i don't think about them again. that didn't happen with these characters, especially the central one, benjamin trotter. i started to think i wanted to revisit them. i wanted to put them in contemporary britain and see how they were getting on. i knew they would be in their mid— 50s by now. so those thoughts were kind of flitting through my mind in the early months of 2016. and then, you know, david cameron called the referendum, the referendum took lace, everything changed, the government went into meltdown, and suddenly, if i was going to write about these characters at this moment, there was no avoiding brexit. it would have been absurd to try to write a novel which didn't deal with it at all. it does preoccupy the nation. what i find interesting about even that description of how you came to it, you are continuing a journey to these characters which began, well,

we have seen them going all the way back to the 19705 and 19805. so they have lived their british live5, back to the 19705 and 19805. so they have lived their british lives, and it has culminated, at least for now, in brexit. there is a continuity there. i wonder if that is your thought about brexit itself. we are tempted to see it as a phenomenon that began with the referendum, or the decision to call the referendum, in 2015, 2016, you place the roots and origins of its much further back. well, a novel begins -- the novel begins in may 30 ten with the general election of that year. —— may 20 ten. it seems like ancient history to talk about a general election which was david cameron versu5 election which was david cameron ver5u5 gordon brown, and which ended in britain's first coalition government. time5 in britain's first coalition government. times are moving so fast and so dramatically that this seems like a long time ago. but it was kind ofan like a long time ago. but it was kind of an arbitrary decision, really. it struck me as a significant moment, in many ways, because it was just after the

financial crisis. it was just after the mp5 expenses scandal of 2009, which i actually think played quite an important part in laying the groundwork for brexit, although it doesn't get talked about very much. and there was also that kind of historical moment when gordon brown me55ed historical moment when gordon brown messed up while his microphone wa5 5till messed up while his microphone wa5 still on, and referred to a potential voter is a sort of bigoted woman. . . potential voter is a sort of bigoted woman... a woman who didn't like immigration, and she came out and said, that bigoted woman. i want to pick up on that. what you describe in this novel, in your characters, are british people who no longer have, it seems to me, any commonality, any common ground or any sense of common identity or purpose. immigration i5 any sense of common identity or purpose. immigration is one of the keyi55ue5 purpose. immigration is one of the key issues over which they look at each other from key issues over which they look at each otherfrom time key issues over which they look at each other from time to time. i am thinking of two female characters, sophie, the academic who wants to be london—based but isn't, and her

mother—in—law, helena, whose provincial, small sea conservative and deeply against immigration. the5e and deeply against immigration. these two women look at each other and simply cannot understand or even really talk to each other in the 5ame really talk to each other in the same language. is that your view of what has happened to britain?” think everybody, certainly everybody i know, has had this kind of terrible conversations with friends 01’ terrible conversations with friends orfamily over the terrible conversations with friends or family over the last few years, even before the brexit referendum, where certain issues come up and the conver5ation ju5t grinds to a halt. and the absence of common ground and the depth of feeling with which they cling to their positions, or inhabit their positions, is very, very powerful. immigration i5 their positions, is very, very powerful. immigration is one of them. helena, the elderly mother—in—law in middle england's, 5ay5 mother—in—law in middle england's, says straightout at one point, which i5a says straightout at one point, which is a phrase that i have heard from many people over the last few decades, 5he

many people over the last few decades, she says, enoch wa5 many people over the last few decades, she says, enoch was right. referring to enoch powell. yes, enoch powell and the rivers of a 5peech enoch powell and the rivers of a speech in 1968. suddenly sophie, who a5 speech in 1968. suddenly sophie, who as you say, is from a different generation, different background, a whole different outlook on life, ju5t whole different outlook on life, just kind of freezers in her seat and thinks, how can this conver5ation and thinks, how can this conversation even and thinks, how can this conver5ation even proceed ? and thinks, how can this conver5ation even proceed? —— freezes. tho5e conver5ation even proceed? —— freezes. those are the sorts of divides... i have jotted down, it is so divides... i have jotted down, it is so telling. you say, they look at each other, they live cheek byjowl in the same country but they live in different univer5e5, universes 5eparated different univer5e5, universes separated by war, infinitely higher, in permeable, and wall built out of fear and 5u5picion. i wonder at you a5 fear and 5u5picion. i wonder at you asa fear and 5u5picion. i wonder at you a5 a novel is, if you feel that this book and your ruminations on britain today about tried to break down that wall, or to mix the metaphor, to build 5ome wall, or to mix the metaphor, to build some sort of bridge between two 5ize build some sort of bridge between two size which, frankly, if you look at parliament today, just yell at each other and have no ability to li5ten each other and have no ability to listen and find common ground. yeah. i don't know. i am skip tickell

about the direct political fact that fiction can have. —— sceptical. i am 5ceptical that people really changed their minds very radically change their minds very radically change their beliefs are very radically after reading a novel. but fiction can do something, 5everal after reading a novel. but fiction can do something, several things, actually, whichjournalism can do something, several things, actually, which journalism can't can do something, several things, actually, whichjournalism can't do, which political speeches can't do. the muscle that it makes us exercise is our imaginative muscle. it makes you more imaginative, to read novels. and imaginatively crossing over and trying to inhabit the mindsets of people with whom you disagree, that is one of the most important tasks we face, i think. wien britain right now are less able to make imaginative leaps then we used to be. —— we in britain. because we are now so consumed used to be. —— we in britain. because we are now so consumed by this tribalism, in rout, saw them, black or white. it may be a failure

of imagination. it may be, you know, a failure of the public discourse or the online discourse, a kind of online way of thinking which reduces everything to like or dislike, to binary oppositions. i am not sure what it is, really. but i feel that a novel has, can have, a constructive role to play, even if not a transformative role. where do you, jonathan coe, sitting all of this? iam you, jonathan coe, sitting all of this? i am mindful of your background. you call the book middle england, and specifically it is about england rather than britain. ina sense, about england rather than britain. in a sense, itjuxtaposes london metropolitan is with provincialism, as identified in the second city of learning, which isjust down as identified in the second city of learning, which is just down the motorway from london. —— london metropolitanism. you are personally from the birmingham area. you know the provinces very well, and i guess the provinces very well, and i guess the books you have written suggest you understand the province is pretty well. but you have actually

chosen to live your life in the heart of metabolic in chelsea in london. yes. so who are you? i am both, which i think is what puts me ina both, which i think is what puts me in a position to be able to write this book. probably the only advantageous position that my background will ever give me, i suspect. 0ne background will ever give me, i suspect. one of the most influential things on my thinking that i read when i was preparing this book was anthony barnett‘s book about brexit. the lure of greatness. he divides the united kingdom up to five entities. northern ireland, scotland, wales, england without london, and london. and he says that brexit was won by england without london. i thought, brexit was won by england without london. ithought, right, that is the area i want to write about. not just write about, but set in some kind of opposition to london itself. you feel a loyalty to that england beyond london? is it is where you are from. yes, i do. not where you now live. you have said, i don't wa nt to

now live. you have said, i don't want to get particularly into your views on brexit and the politics of now, but you have said that he voted remain, you are a remainer, and i am just wondering, whether you feel out of love about england that you knew asa of love about england that you knew as a boy, as a young man, that you left behind, in a way? well, it has taken me a long time to describe myself as a londoner. i have lived in london for 32 years. and actually, it is really listens the referendum that i have started to identify as a londoner, and to think, yes, this is where i feel most comfortable now. but, you know, the midlands, the provincial midlands, they are what formed me. that is where i grew up. and the attitudes that i observed and imbibed when i was growing up, not all of which by any means are reactionary or unprogressive, you know, have formed me and stayed with me. and when i go back there, which

do quite often because my mother still lives in the same house where i grew still lives in the same house where igrew up, still lives in the same house where i grew up, and i dined visitor fairly regularly, then i feel a kind of homecoming. —— i go and visit her fairly regularly. a different kind of homecoming and i feel when fairly regularly. a different kind of homecoming and ifeel when i returned to london, but it is still a homecoming. so i feel absolutely rooted in both places. and in a way... there is an ambivalence in you. there is a great ambivalence. ina way, you. there is a great ambivalence. in a way, i wrote middle england to try to reconcile those two things, those two aspects of my personality. let me about your writing in a somewhat different way, to get away from brexit specifically. just talk about your style. you use humour. your books are funny. but it seems to me something has happened in the last few years, that writers who use humourand last few years, that writers who use humour and satire, such as yourself, are beginning to wonder whether, given everything that is happening around the world, whether it be brexit or donald trump or the rise of nativism and populism in so many

parts of the world, whether satire really is sufficient any more. is that the best way of registering descent from what is happening around the world, or should there be more outrage involved ? around the world, or should there be more outrage involved? —— dissent. well, i think the british, and again, let's talk about the english specifically, have a great, take a great ride in a sense of humour, and a great pride in their ability to deal in the kind of self—mockery. this has always been one of the selling points of britain, ifind, when i go abroad. and my books in particular, readers say we love your books, because they are so english and the sense of humour in them is so english. levity can ever really define what they mean by this, but they say it. —— nobody. yet actually, in my books, i have moved away from satirical humour, i think. i wrote a novel a couple of decades

ago called what a carve up! which was a savage attack on thatcherism and the politics of the 19805. rather naively at the time, i thought people would read this book and hit their brows and say, i've been wrong about thatcher is all this time. satire can make a difference. here is a quote for you, i suspect whether you wonder this was still true, because amanda emql was still true, because amanda emoji, a great writer of comic film and fiction, he said this recently. he said, "any attempt to present a fictional version of today's events would never be as crazy as the real thing. the truth in washington, london or moscow is much more demented than fiction". and that represents a crisis the comedy writers. yes. i think that is true. particularly in the case of the kind of comedy that armando deals and, because what he is so brilliant that is observing the mechanics of all editions in action, and the backroom scenes among spin doctors and

policymakers. that kind of thing. my focus is different. i don't write about those people much because i don't know them and i don't move in those circles. i write more about our politics impacts upon would marry people, for want of a better word, everyday life. little will be the humour in middle england of which there is a lot, not just kind of satirical humour which is designed to change the reader ‘5 mind about anything, it's more of a relief, a safety valve that the characters retreat to. just to cope with daily reality. it's more in this book. it's interesting how you describe it. humour is diffusing angen describe it. humour is diffusing anger. it was bought from george 0rwell, anger. it was bought from george 0 rwell, every anger. it was bought from george 0rwell, every joke is anger. it was bought from george 0rwell, everyjoke is a tiny revolution. that would be covering the notion that by telling jokes, you are doing something interesting and important in terms of dissent.

john 0'farrell recently turn that on his head and said, i think these days every joke is his head and said, i think these days everyjoke is instead of a tiny revolution. yes, i think i'm kind of mori climbed to agree withjohnno barrel on this one. freud, if we are going to get deep into the psychology of humour, bought that thejoke psychology of humour, bought that the joke was psychology of humour, bought that thejoke was a psychology of humour, bought that the joke was a mental shortcut. it took it from to z but instead of taking you through b, c, d, and key, it whisked you from one place to another and the energy saved expels itself in laughter and you have a great sense of release. that energy that gets released a political humour. if the conversation around it was serious. but you are not a man who would ever complicate —— contemplate going to the barricades was in my not at the moment, though. we ask you something

else about the divisions that are so apparent in contemporary society. we talked about brexit but i want to talked about brexit but i want to talk to about something else which you made a point of writing about which is gender and the whole debate about gender identity, sexuality, you say that actually, this is an issue upon which you've noticed deep and real divisions even within your own family, the mindset you bring to it in the mindset of your children. i'm interested. well, there appears to bea i'm interested. well, there appears to be a revolution taking place in the way that we think about gender and the way in which young people think about gender in particular. and i don't want to be one of these people who gets more reactionary as i get older. you think there is a danger of that? there was always a danger of that? there was always a danger in that, you get set in your ways of thinking and i try to be

progressive in most areas i think i am but something i've noticed, but don't disagree with but not on the same wavelength instinctively as my teenage daughters is gender, where they are much more comfortable with fluid non—in —— non— binary concepts of gender than my generation and i think we can come around to their point of view and see things their way, but it's a generational divide at the moment. it's interesting because this is an important debate in the fields of creativity and academia and if i can generalise crudely about it, on the one hand you have perhaps predominantly young people particularly on campuses who describe themselves as work, concerned and militant about not allowing language that offends particular groups to be used and

defend people and we interviewed another person, jordan peterson, the canadian academic, with the movement of people who think pc culture and identity —— identity politics and what he calls cultural marxism have gone too far and are repressing free—speech. where do you sit on all of that as a writer? as a writer, my job is to listen to these debates and observe them and dramatise them as best i can as i do in middle england where my academic character, sophie, makes what she thinks is a perfectly innocent yet rather gauche and awkward joke to a transgender student and suddenly finds that a twitter storm has erupted, that her seminars and lectures are being boycotted and she loses herjob, basically. she gets it back again

eventually. it's interesting because you couldn't entertainingly about sophie but is that partly about jonathan coe himself having to police ‘5 own language and writing, to use a phrase your kids might use, check your entitlement? it's interesting the kind of vocabulary you get into. you talk about policing your language. already it has a kind of slightly repressive, slightly authoritarian ring to it.” wa nt to slightly authoritarian ring to it.” want to know if you look deep down inside yourself, do you do it now?” wouldn't use the word police but i think much more carefully about what i wrote on certain issues than i would have done decades or even yea rs would have done decades or even years ago. can you give me an example? there is a novel! years ago. can you give me an example? there is a novel i wrote more than 20 years ago called the house of sleep which i am scared to reread now because it's about, among

other things, a man who decides to change gender and the reason he does it is because he's in love with a 93v it is because he's in love with a gay woman and he wants to sleep with her, he wants to be in a with her. that is a much thorny subject. today, that it was in 1997. to be blunt about it, are you saying that if you had a blank piece of paper today, you don't think you would be able to write the novel that you wrote 20 years ago? i'm sure i wouldn't write it in exactly the same way and i be more careful. i know there are some novelists who maintain that kind of carefulness, what you referred to as self policing is the enemy of creativity. i don't think it is necessarily. creativity is extremely bound up

with carefulness as far as i'm concerned. every aspect of writing a novel you have to be careful about. and making sure that you not don't offend people, but treat the point offend people, but treat the point of view of every character in your novel with respect, which is what this ball is down to. that's part of the novelists job from the word go. you referred in talking about the way in which these things have become so controversial, in academia and sometimes in the literary world, you referred to twitter and the role of social media. how people can pile on when somebody says something offensive. howard jacobson, another leading writer who was on this show, he says he finds the world of the internet and the constant 24—7 information flow and the screen being a compulsive beecher, he finds it completely negative and says, quote, twitter will make children

illiterate in 20 years. are you worried by what is happening with the internet and with screens? i'm not as pessimistic as howard jacobson sounds about it. i kind of envy people who can turn their back on all out. have you tried? no, because i'm as addictive as anybody. apart from anything else, ifind because i'm as addictive as anybody. apart from anything else, i find the internet and incredible information source and social resource. i like being in dialogue with my readers on twitter and that's kind of thing. it's become a very important part of my working life in my career. you don't feel it is sucking up creative energies you otherwise might have employed writing 3000 words of the next novel? don't think so. this is a word novel i wrote in ten months andi a word novel i wrote in ten months and i was on twitter the whole time. qed, i rest my case. final port view

and we talked a lot about your own right —— your own identity and your rootedness. you have won a lot of prizes outside of britain, more so than in britain and you have a loyal audience but you seem to have a certain amount of self hate the writer ‘5 life. engine in potter, one of your most famous characters, is an absurd figure in a way. —— benjamin. the whole world of literary prizes, you mock it mercilessly. are you sick of being a writer and is it time to do something else? i can't do anything else. why not? i don't have the option, i have no other skills. i've written books since i was eight yea rs written books since i was eight years old, my first full—length novel at 16 and it's the only thing i seem to have any time for, really. i could teach but i run into people every day were much better teachers than i would be. sitting in a room listening to imaginary conversations and putting them down on paper is

what i do and it's a kind of absurd way from man to spend his life really but somehow i kind of spun it out a career. i might as well see it through. jonathan coe, we must end it there but thank you very much for being on hardtalk. hello again. it's been a mild winter so far and one thing we've not seen a great deal of is snow. however, over the last few hours, behind this cold front, we have seen some snow showers pushing across shetland so if heading outside soon, you might see more of these coming and going, some clear spells between, and a cold wind.

scotland, cold enough for patches of frost but otherwise there is too much wind and cloud around, showers too, so it's not especially cold for england and wales and northern ireland, temperatures for most between 6 and 8 celsius for the early rises. the first part of monday, still a lot of cloud around and passing showers, probably sunshine for scotland but a frosty start here before thicker cloud works in the west and we see rain arriving. also some of that rain getting into shetland. mildest weather across western and southern parts, temperatures into double figures but noticeably cooler across eastern parts of the uk, temperatures 3 in lerwick and 5 in aberdeen. the cold weather doesn't last long, a warm front pushing through on monday night and tuesday, this weather front targeting western scotland, bringing heavy rain to the highlands. here, 50—100 millimetres of rain over the mountains, quite a wet spell of weather. elsewhere, a lot of cloud and a few limited sunny spells but it's milder.

temperatures for most of us between 10 and 11 celsius. notice those temperatures coming up in shetland so the threat of any snow receding with that milder weather arriving. tuesday night, the slow—moving weather front bringing rain in scotland will eventually push southwards, bringing the wet weather from scotland into northern ireland across parts of england and wales as well. to the south of our weather front, the cold front which continues to move in during wednesday, we should see some reasonable temperatures in the south with highs expected to reach about 10 celsius or so, but noticeably colder further north, cold enough for some hill snow there across northern parts of scotland with single—figure temperatures. that colder air moves southwards wednesday night and by thursday, winds coming down from the arctic and with that a lot of dry weather and sunshine but cold with a sharp frost and showers around as well. those showers are likely to be wintry with snow showers

into the north of mainland scotland and the odd bit of sleet in the showers down the north sea coast as well. a cold day, temperatures between 3 and 7 degrees celsius. that's your latest weather. goodbye. i'm sharanjit leyl in singapore, the headlines: us secretary of state mike pompeo has arrived in riyadh. high on the agenda — the us decision to withdraw troops from syria. a senior member of the saudi royal family tells the bbc the pullout is "very negative." it will further entrench not only the iranians are also the russians and the shah arla side. —— and bashar al—assad parts of europe grapple with the worst winter in years —

more than 20 people have died and entire villages are buried under