tv HAR Dtalk BBC News January 21, 2019 12:30am-1:00am GMT
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our top story. the british prime minister, theresa may prepares to unveil her latest brexit proposals, after her deal was rejected by mps last week. a cross—party group of mps have been discussing how parliament could take control of the process and stop a ‘no deal‘ brexit happening. the government have accused them of trying to "hijack brexit". that's the key finding of a new report from the us defense intelligence agency. and this story is trending on bbc.com — police say they've spoken to the duke of edinburgh after he was spotted not wearing a seatbelt — just two days after being involved in a car crash. that's all. stay with bbc world news. now on bbc news, stephen sackur talks to the tanzanian opposition mp tundu lissu on hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen
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sackur. tanzania is one of africa's fastest—growing nations economically and demographically as well. it is also governed by one of the continent ‘s most controversial leaders. presidentjohn magafuli, otherwise known as the bulldozer. my guest today is one of his leading domestic opponents, tundu lissu. at least it was until gunmen pumped more than 20 bullets into his body in 2017. tundu lissu survived and he has rejoined the fight against a ruler he describes as a petty dictator. but maybe, tanzanians like strongman rule? tundu lissu, welcome to hardtalk. thank you so much for having me. we are pleased to have you here, not least because 16 months ago it looked as though you
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we re months ago it looked as though you were probably dying. somehow, miraculously, you survived an assassination attempt that saw 20 bullets pumped into your body. how wide you today? i am very well. very well compared to what i was 1a months ago. as you say, i was short multiple times. i was short 16 times to be precise. i guess some bullets hit the car rather than you because they spread... those that hit me we re they spread... those that hit me were 16 bullets. those that spread the car, i'm told were 38. wow. so 16 hits and two surgeries later and here i am. you seem to believe that there was a definite political intent to that attack upon you. yes. absolutely. what is your proof? the
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proof is in the circumstances leading up to the attack. you see, for about six weeks before i was short there were people following me, following my car everywhere i went. there were, you know, they we re everywhere went. there were, you know, they were everywhere i went there would bea cartailing were everywhere i went there would be a car tailing me. beat could have been anybody. for those who don't know, you were quite a public figure in tanzania, not just know, you were quite a public figure in tanzania, notjust because you area in tanzania, notjust because you are a senior opposition party member but you will also be head of the legal association. the but you will also be head of the legalassociation. the national but you will also be head of the legal association. the national bar association. so, probably, there we re association. so, probably, there were many people, i dare say, some them bad people, who may have had an animus against student you can't be sure who. those we have proof of
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having a bad animus against me is the government. for one year preceding the attack on me in september 2017, i was arrested eight times, charged in court with the offence of sedition. this is a free—speech offence. there were open calls by people who we know to be members of the ruling party who called openly for my assassination after i had denounced the president, after i had denounced the president, after i had revealed that one of his pet project, the acquisition of new aircraft for air tanzania, had been seized in canada because of his reach of contract while he was serving as minister of public works. you made a series of serious allegations of corruption and the president has, of course, denied and dismissed all of them. equally, it
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should be said, that in the intervening months since the assassination attempt the government and the authorities in tanzania have come up with no evidence pointing to any association with the government in terms of this attack. so you seem to me to be making some allegations and connections and claims that a highly inflammatory in today's tanzania that you don't have the evidence. listen, stephen. iam tanzania that you don't have the evidence. listen, stephen. i am the chief whip of the official opposition. 0ma parliamentary leader. i live in a government housing compound that is heavily guarded 2a hour was, seven days a week. every apartment block inside that compound is guided 24—hour was, seven days a week. and on the day of the attack, in broad daylight, it was one o'clock in the afternoon during the lunch break. during the parliamentary sessions. gunmen
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followed me from parliament into this heavily guarded government housing compound where ministers and members of parliament, the deputy speaker, so on and so forth, where they all live, and there was absolutely no protection. no guard at the gate. there was no security whatsoever. i understand all that. but i am also mindful of legal niceties here and the president did say, after the attack, that he utterly condemned it and he called immediately on law enforcement to catch and am punished... the president, he has never ever spoken in public about this attempted assassination. never. there was a tweet, there was a tweet, a small quick tweet and it disappeared. but the president has never ever publicly spoken about the assassination attempt. the
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president, and this comes from the speaker of parliament, the president has locked efforts to have me treated at the cost of parliament. which is my stature or write. just a game, to keep people informed of what has happened since, in the year 01’ more what has happened since, in the year or more since the attack you have had to have medical treatment first in kenya but extensive treatment and rehabilitation in belgium. so you have been based in belgium for quite a while and you have had a lot of time to read late. when you think of some of the things you said in the lead up to the summer of 2017, before the assassination attempt, you called the president a petty dictator. at one point you called on the international community to treat tanzania, andi the international community to treat tanzania, and i quote you directly, as the skunk of the world. and now that you have had time to reflect, did you go over the top? governments
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that kill their citizens, governance that kill their citizens, governance that use the security forces to target their political opponents, governments that prohibit political rights which are protected by the constitution at governments that cause civilians to be abducted and disappear like it was with those of noxious latin american dictatorships of the 60s and 70s, the government ‘s that have occasioned loss of lives, that destroy innocent lives in the world, both governments deserve to be described as the skunk of the world. how disappointed are you that the tanzania and people, they listen to you, they listened to be president, they weigh up the different messages that the president enjoys an approval measure
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of reaching 70% in some areas. there is every sign that he and the ruling party will win and win big in the next round of elections. party will win and win big in the next round of electionslj party will win and win big in the next round of elections. i will say this. during the first year of president magafuli's tenure we were told his approval rating was in the high 80s. 0ne told his approval rating was in the high 80s. one year later, last year, last year, high 80s. one year later, last year, last yea r, early last high 80s. one year later, last year, last year, early last year, one of those polls came out with polling that showed that the president's approval rating had dropped to 61%. do you know what happened? the managing director of that polling firm had his citizenship question, his passport seized and for all intents and purposes they will never do it again because now, immediately after, a new statistics law was passed which says that if you bring
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out statistics that put the government in a bad light, you are a criminal. on this matter of whether the president is seen by his people to be doing a good job, can wejust considering few of the achievement of this administration. the magafuli administration. he promised to cut out much of the corruption in the country. in the first few weeks and months of his administration thousands of ghost workers were removed from the pay wall. we saw seniorfigures be removed from the port authority and revenue service because they had been systematically corrupt. if you ask tanzanians today, according to all the evidence, they feel their country is cleaner and less corrupt than i was when he took office. in africa, that is quite an achievement. we also saw the president building and brand—new airport in his home village, in the middle of the forest somewhere in
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the congo. we saw the president... and they - an opening the congo. we saw the president... and they. an opening —— it and they say an opening —— it openly, but the is openly, but the president is purchasing aircraft for air tanzania. is not the president ‘s job. you point to examples but i point to systems. the tax and revenue service is bringing in more today than i was before magafuli came to power. he has delivered on his promise to make tanzanians pay their taxes to be a more efficient and responsible society and are quietly. on the contrary. there was a spike. and increase in tax revenue during the first year in 2016 — 2017. and then, revenue, tax revenue for the government has gone down. why? because the president has attacked the breathless community. he has attacked private investors,
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investment is drying up... hang on. you say he attacked private investors. what he has done, a gain, is deliver on a promise made to get a little tougher with the foreign corporations including the huge mining companies who have been making vast profit from the natural resources of tanzania for years. he said he would get tougher with he has delivered and the he has people, 1 and the he has people, again, 1e he has people, again, see and to tanzanians people, again, see and to suggest they like what he has done. whose polling we talking about here however? when the president and his party and his government passed laws that inhibit independent verification of the statistics provided publicly, who is there to say... well, i don't want to stick to pulse. let's take the analysis of respected independent observer of tanzania who writes on tanzania and affairs at oxford university. he
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says the magafuli has defied the assumption that african states cannot on big multinational corporations and win. he sought out a confrontation with the mining companies that eventually led to companies that eventually led to companies agreeing a deal that involves substantial concessions to tanzania. are you seriously saying you do not like that? the mining company has nodded read on any deal. we are told by the president himself that the company had agreed to pay $300 million as... i don't know what you would call it, like a golden handshake. but the president himself made a statement that they have agreed to make a payment, an immediate and payment of $300 million. that they have not paid a penny. not a penny. there were slapped with a tax bill of $191; billion. they have not paid a penny. not a penny. it seems you don't even wa nt not a penny. it seems you don't even want the government to take on the
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big foreign corporate. you have been complaining in saying that we must be nicer to them i have not said that at all. i spent 19 years from 1999 when everybody, magafuli included, were singing the praises of these investors in the mining sector ripping us off. 19 years as the sole voice to the contrary. ifi if i may say if it is so clear that magafuli is failing the people, why is it in the last year a substantial number, at least six and possibly depending how you read it that members of the official opposition in parliament and of course there are various parties in the opposition but less than members that seems to have defected to the government ‘s side, including of the most seniorfigures who government ‘s side, including of the most senior figures who were leading the opposition to magafuli and out on his side. there has been a major threat, a major commercial enterprise in politics in tanzania over the past one year. what do you
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mean? i mean precisely that, that people have been given money to change sides, people have been promised that if you change sides, it will ensure that you will return asa it will ensure that you will return as a candidate and will use whatever force we have in our capacity to make sure that you win and that is exactly what happened! you are a very senior lawyer so you know better than either and it is very dangerous to bandy about these allegations when you don't have a civic evidence when of course people who you are making allegations against, some senior figures who you are making allegations against, some seniorfigures in who you are making allegations against, some senior figures in the opposition, are not here to defend themselves back they could categorically deny the charges you have put at their door. the home affairs ministerfor a have put at their door. the home affairs minister for a while have put at their door. the home affairs ministerfor a while became the opponent of matter fully. —— magafuli and was hard on magafuli but in recent times has decided that what he sees from magafuli is actually quite positive and he says while you may not always agree with
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the president and the way he does things his heart is in the right place and he is having an impact on the lives of everyday tanzanians. place and he is having an impact on the lives of everyday tanzaniansm the lives of everyday tanzaniansm the three years since president magafuli came to office, 380 civilians, villagers, in various villages south of darussalam have disappeared. what it has been found floating in rivers, in the indian 0cean, teachers. this is unprecedented in our history. we have not seen anything like this. in three years political opponents of the government and his party have been murdered with complete impunity. no investigation. no arrest. but even suspicion. martyred in broad daylight. this is unprecedented. now this is the price we must pay in order to have less corruption? is this the 10th of the aid you want where the language
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being used, and the allegations being used, and the allegations being made, are getting ever more inflammatory? the government clearly is worried by this and have passed a raft of measures and proposed a more which many would say repress freedom of speech. they say it is because they are so very worried that freedom of speech in tanzania is being abused but people spreading false allegations, making up stories, that is why they have put new controls on social media, on bloggers, on also from time to time closing down newspapers, radio stations. i just closing down newspapers, radio stations. ijust wonder closing down newspapers, radio stations. i just wonder whether, again, on reflection you feel that the way you were making your political arguments is fanning the fla mes political arguments is fanning the flames or actually calling tensions. steven, what i have said about the killings of civilians in the area, the disappearances of political opponents, what i have said about
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the crackdown on the press, what i have said about you know individual bloggers or people sending this message is on whatsapp groups and so on and so forth has been said with more all less the same vehemence by the charges, the press will have been spoken in parliament, they have been spoken in parliament, they have been said by the international community, they have been repeated basically by the european union in their recent resolution. so what i'm saying, what i'm saying is nothing, absolutely nothing new. for those who know what has been happening in tanzania. for the past few years. the government, even with the latest legislation where it wants to repeal the political parties act to make it much for difficult opposition political parties to conduct what is being called activism on the streets, you then face a choice —
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are you going to confront this government and its repressive legislation openly, and it could of course lead to violence? 0r legislation openly, and it could of course lead to violence? or are you going to find ways which are feasible rather than potentially confrontational? we have always, we have always fought political battles peacefully. we have never, ever, supported the use of violence as a political weapon. let's talk specifically about the reasons why the international community in the last few months has expressed grave concerns about what is happening in tanzania and what the magafuli administration is doing. they are particularly focused on some of the highly controversial conservative social messages and actions being made by the government, in particular the world bank cancelled a $300 million loan to tanzania after the country, the government, reiterated its policy of banning pregnant girls from going to school.
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the eu withdrew its ambassador and it voiced particular concern about the government's determination, it seems, to root out homosexuality and impose prison sentences of up to 30 yea rs. impose prison sentences of up to 30 years. but has been the law for quite sometime. i know, but the government has said it wants new measures to identify and punish homosexuals to my question to you with is a key figure in the opposition are you prepared to speak out loudly against these repressive social measures of the current government? we are on record that theissue government? we are on record that the issue of pregnant schoolgirls continuing with their education is a government policy. it is magafuli's in government policy. it is in their own party manifesto. it is in their party documents. it is part of our law. so for the president, the to
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stand up and say "we will no longer educate schoolgirls because they are preg na nt" educate schoolgirls because they are pregna nt" is educate schoolgirls because they are pregnant" is going not only against the law, it is also going against the law, it is also going against the state and party policy of his own party. you are clear on that, you his stand on that. what about his defence of the punitive laws on homosexuality? would you as a leading opposition figure here on hardtalk speak out against those united flaws? resident magafuli has said this and... i am not asking, we know he is deeply socially conservative. we have to get the record straight, stephen! the president, the foreign minister, has said that whatever actions we are taking by the regional commission for das alarm, those are not government policy. that is not government policy. that is not government policy! i want to know andi government policy! i want to know and i did so many people around the world would like to know is a senior african opposition politician
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repaired in public to say" these laws that we have currently in our country on homosexuality, punishment of up to 30 years in prison, are utterly u na cce pta ble of up to 30 years in prison, are utterly unacceptable and if i achieve power we will urge rid of those laws". every individual is entitled to their privacy. we should never allow the government to start peeping into people ‘s bedrooms. never allow the government to start peeping into people '5 bedroomsm you would eliminate these laws that provides homosexuality? b, b... please. would eliminate the door —— laws that... if they violate and they violate the privacy, the privacy that is protected by the constitution, then those laws are definitely unconstitutional and by the constitution of tanzania, not talking about any other constitution, our constitution says these are private matters and they should remain private matters. in the course of this interview you have outlined so many different areas where you said the president
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is taking tanzania in the wrong direction. yes. it had accused him ofan direction. yes. it had accused him of an awful lot of bad stuff during oui’ conversation. of an awful lot of bad stuff during our conversation. yes. having had all the operations in surgery and rehabilitation are you now ready to go back to tanzania to fight this president politically, would your name on the ballot for the next presidential election? my treatment is still ongoing. but i have stated that when the doctors declare me fit to go, i will go to tanzania. that is why am i am not in exile, i am in belgium because i was shot 16 times and doctors have had to operate on me. are you prepared to go back to tanzania without specific security and safety guarantees?” tanzania without specific security and safety guarantees? i will go back to tanzania when i am fully fit. and the president and his government will have to tell the world whether returning home to tanzania i will be protected by the
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government, as i should. the government, as i should. the government has a responsibility to make sure that i am safe. i'm still a member of parliament. i will go back to continue the work that i was chosen to do. and spoke about the ballot, i have stated, if the people of tanzania if the members of the party believes that on the correct person to face president magafuli in 2020, i'm more than ready to do so. tundu lissu, we will keep watching that story. thank you very much. thank you so much, steven. thank you so thank you so much, steven. thank you so much, steven. hello.
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eyes to the skies for the total lunar eclipse. there are some areas of cloud around england and wales, some high cloud in scotland and northern ireland that may limit the views, so good luck. the blue indicating where there is a frost around. in fact, more widespread frost to start monday compared with sunday so is indicative of that. there are some breaks in the cloud, allowing temperatures to drop away for quite a widespread frost then for the start of monday. underneath this ridge of high pressure, giving this first half of the day for most of us some quiet weather but things are going to change. a more vigorous weather system is approaching from the north—west. that quite quickly is going to thicken the cloud even further in scotland and northern ireland. the winds pick up as well — gusts eventually towards 60 miles an hour i think in the western isles — and then here comes the wet weather, moving into northern ireland, into western scotland through the afternoon and into the evening. some hill snow again, especially in scotland. ahead of that, though, much of eastern scotland, much of england and wales — at least the during daylight hours — will stay dry.
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quite a bit of cloud around, some hazy brightness here and there. probably some good sunshine in kent. it is a cold day though, around 4—8 degrees. this wet weather pushes south then monday evening and night. snow to the hills in scotland, the pennines, maybe some snow to lower levels, some wet snow and heavier bursts. squally winds as that moves south as well. clearing behind it, notice some wintry showers coming in towards the north—west for the start of tuesday — a sign of things to come on tuesday. temperatures dipping again behind this weather system to get a touch of frost going into tuesday morning. so that weather system pushes away early on tuesday from the far south—east and a flow of quite cold air coming in from the north—west on which we will see these wintry showers. some sunshine too, but the showers into northern and western scotland, northern ireland, wales, western england. snow notjust on hills out of these. get a heavy shower, even to lower levels, you could see a brief covering, and it will start to drift a little bit further eastwards on through tuesday on that north—westerly wind, which will make it feel colder. now, as we look ahead to wednesday, still a few of these showers running in towards the west. quite a bit of sunshine elsewhere. could start to pick up some showers
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too towards east anglia and south—west england going into wednesday night early thursday. that could give a little bit of snow in places so aware of that potential. but actually the second half of the week, there is quite a bit of dry weather around. some sunshine at times, frosty nights. by friday, the atlantic weather system brings thicker cloud towards parts of scotland and northern ireland but at that stage, it becomes a little less cold and the end of the week looks like it turns colder again next weekend. much of this week, though, is cold, sunshine and wintry showers with snow in places and some frosty nights to come. hello, you're watching newsday. i'm babita sharma in london. the headlines: what next for brexit? theresa may prepares to unveil her latest proposals to parliament, but the divisions remain. what we are now getting are some of those who were always absolutely opposed to the result of the referendum trying to hijack brexit, and in fact steal the result from the people.
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china's growing military might. we examine the us report that warns of beijing's high—tech capabilities. and i'm sharanjit leyl in singapore. also in the programme: pressure on the palace over the duke of edinburgh's car crash. police speak to the prince after he is seen driving without a seatbelt. and the stargazing treat that is set to dazzle the night sky. we will have the latest on a rare lunar event.
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