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tv   Dateline London  BBC News  January 21, 2019 3:30am-4:00am GMT

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compared to the same time a year ago. it reflects the continued slowing of the world's second—biggest economy, which is feeling the effects of a global slowdown and is also embroiled in a trade war with the united states. theresa may will unveil her latest plans for brexit later, after the withdrawal agreement was voted down by the house of commons last week. the british prime minister has already updated her cabinet on talks with mps from rival parties and factions. riot police and extreme right—wing activists in greece have been involved in clashes for several hours that left 25 police officers and an unknown number of protesters injured. they were protesting at plans to recognise greece's northern neighbour as the republic of north macedonia. now on bbc news, dateline london.
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in prospect? 5? 5-351; iii??? e55 el??? and brian o'connell, irish writer and broadcaster. a warm welcome to you all. two—and—a—half years in the making and last week the british parliament finally got to vote on the government's eu withdrawal bill. european observers called it a shipwreck, a shambles and some other things not fit to repeat. what do our panel think? steve, you've been reporting british politics for most
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of your adult life. you first. all of my adult life. this is the most extraordinary junction. everyone involved in politics in any form say this is the most extraordinary moment of their lifetime. for many reasons. one, most fundamentally, i do a one—man show about politics. i was at the edinburgh festival last august and i opened it by saying that anybody who told me that the august before we were meant to leave in march, no one knew what form brexit would take wouldn't believe them. four weeks before we're meant to be leaving and we still don't know that answer. but also the scale of the defeat in the parliament on theresa may deal for brexit was astonishing. a few months ago when things seemed abnormal but not as abnormal as now i assumed if she lost that vote she would have to go. she lost it by over 200 and she's still in place.
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that too is astonishing and the reason she is still in place is partly there is no time to replace her. on who should replace her. it's almost as if the drama erupting around her, she can somehow distance herself from it and just carry on as if she is apart from this extraordinary turbulence. i could go on for the rest of the programme on why this is an extraordinary moment but there are a few examples. annalisa, what strikes you? is it the scale of the defeat, the uncertainty, is there something extraordinary emerging about the character of theresa may at the heart of this? i think the most extraordinary feature looking from outside britain is to see the falling apart of one of the most admired political systems in the world. this is what is really leaving the rest of the world completely speechless, beyond their
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usual kind ofjoke. the point is that the british political system is falling apart and there is a staggering absence of responsible leadership. this is something that has been pointed out byjohn major today and there needs to be a moment in which there is someone taking at heart the national interest and taking leadership. and it doesn't seem to be there at the moment. bari, seen from an arab perspective, is it an absence of leadership? is it the falling apart of an admired political system? i believe it is both, the people in the middle east are shocked and usually they characterise british governments, british people, is very, you know, you can say
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visionary, you can say calculating. looking for the interest of the country. and suddenly there is no charismatic leadership. the government is not strong enough, there is no decisive decision. it is uncertainty, as you mentioned. ok, you want to stay in the european union, 0k. you want to leave the european union, 0k. you must have a vision. two years, theresa may trying to reach a deal and suddenly in less than three days the whole deal collapsed. and she was all the time caring about the interest of her party, the interest of herself, not the interest of the people. so i believe now, 0k, where is the exit? until now we cannot see the exit from this mess.
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what are they waiting for? a new deal? there wouldn't be a new deal. 230 mps voted against her deal. i don't think any deal which she can bring in would be acceptable. very quickly, this is the fundamental problem. two responses you have had, what are the interests of the people in inverted commas? what is the national interest, as you described it? no—one can agree. so for example the former labour leader ed miliband asked theresa may this week, please be the servant of this parliament, but she said, i am the servant of the people. and she has convinced herself that her duty is to deliver that 2016 referendum result. but that referendum result didn't tell anyone what form brexit should take and many people now see that as not being
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in the national interest. so the fundamental problem has been this act of direct democracy, which we don't usually do in britain but david cameron, the then pm did, not because he discovered a love of direct democracy but because he thought it would keep his party together and that he would win. that he lost and most of the house of commons think that was the wrong outcome is the fundamental problem and that is not easy to solve. brian, in a few words, what struck you about last week? well, it is how afraid the british democratic process has become. constitutional conventions in this country are very different to a lot of other european countries where they have written constitutions. ireland, for example, as well. but what steve says actually goes to the nub of it, the direct democracy, the exercise of direct democracy
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is not something with which british leaders are very well acquainted. just to draw a couple of examples from ireland, the recent abortion referendum and equal marriage referendum, what they both did then was everybody knew what they were voting for, unlike the 2016 brexit referendum, because in advance you had constitutional conventions, citizen's forums, whatever you want to call them, there are various ways to do it, but these things go on ad nauseam for most people in the country. but at least they know more or less notjust whether you tick yes or no but also what the consequences of ticking that box will mean. and there were various consequences obviously. yeah, but, we all agree on this, britain is not used to referendums, ireland and italy and other countries are. but that is only part of the problem. that was the wrong question with the wrong preparation, but now what really needs to happen is for someone to say the truth.
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and the truth is that there is no better deal than the deal that britain currently has. it has become obvious in the past two years. the reason why the deal has been voted down so loudly is that it's a bad deal. so there needs to be someone brave enough, a politician that says there is no better deal than what we had. i want to come back briefly to brian on this, because one thing that brexiteers are saying at this point is, well, it will be a better deal if we get rid of the backstop. we would get more votes behind it. that would be worrying to the republic of ireland, brian. yes, i mean, the irish government are not going to say to the european commission, 0k, well, we agree to take the backstop out. that is not going to happen. i mean, just for the sake of clarity, the backstop is there to ensure that the border between northern ireland and the republic of ireland remains open because of all
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the considerations that came to the fore in the good friday agreement and to prevent the return of conflict and so on. but as long as mrs may maintains her red lines, immigration, customs union and the european union, she is not going to be able to get very far with the big tent politics that she is trying to do at the moment. even ifjeremy corbyn does agree. but sticking with the republic, no movement you think from dublin, but even if not from dublin what about the rest of europe? well, if example there was movement... this is the only chink of light i can possibly conceive of and it is a very, very small chink, would be that if there were some movement maybe on the customs union, and theresa may were to go back to brussels and say, ok, let's talk about customs union. well, then that might then mean that you could look at the backstop, that guarantee of an open border in a slightly different light
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if britain and northern ireland were to remain in the customs union forever or if that became part of the future trade agreements and so on in some way, maybe that might help in changing the idea of the backstop as a permanent guarantee. annalisa is shaking her head. that is kicking the can down the road, we have seen this now for two years. it is obvious now that there is no solution to a hard border in northern ireland that will not imply something that is unacceptable to the hard brexiteer. we have seen this overand overagain. the time for dithering is over. i think if british democracy was a mature democracy, it should now go back to the voters and say these are the options. that comes to bari's point, we are talking about something several hundred years old and it's not a mature democracy! let us admit that this country
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is in a deep crisis. we are talking about something in the past, why we reach this crisis. but nobody is trying to say how can we get out of it. there are three options, the first option for theresa may the second option is to go to the parliament, the people to go but the first two of those don't solve anything actually. if theresa may went tomorrow, the problem is exactly the same for whoever takes over. the general election doesn't necessarily solve anything because it could be another hung parliament and all the problems remain.
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now, the third way might be a route through. i think you mentioned john major. it is possible, for example, he suggests that in effect parliament takes control of this and theresa may offers to become in effect a facilitator of parliament. and the house of commons vote on all the options, if a majority emerges she facilitates it. if no majority emerges, paralysis accepted and you have a referendum. the problem with that is partly if she is capable of being in effect reduced to a facilitator. she is surprising, some say it is dutiful, others would say stubborn. and i think she would find it very difficult to move. at the problem with her other customs you, admittedly she says things that prove, if i could put it politely, not to be the case very quickly afterwards.
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but she has said since that historic defeat that she is still committed to the uk having an independent trade policy, the right to negotiate its own trade deals, which in effect rules out a customs union. if she moves on that, that clearly opens up lots of doors because that move so closer to labour pots theoretical position which is to support customs union. but again it is a massively for her, there would be cabinet resignations and so on. let's just nailed this point about what could happen monday, she's not going to come forward with such a suggestion next week, is she? on monday, she has to come forward with something. at this moment in time, it's not at all clear what she will say, but for sure these talks that she is having, this open—door thing with other party leaders cannot lead to a consensus because she's had people in who believe in wholly
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different routes, in other words she has spoken to the brexit hardliners, she has spoken to the leader of the liberal democrats of the leader of the greens, who want a referendum and to stay in. now, there is no way there is a consensus through all of that. so, she has got a big call to make as to what she says on monday. and it's not clear yet what route she is going to take. the vote itself on whatever emerges through all of this is the following week, so next week will be very important. does parliament in effect seize the initiative? or does she refuse, because she could do, =§4§lflm the interesting thing is that theresa may and facilitator do not trip off the tongue! that's why i'm very
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pessimistic about what's going to happen next week. so, do you see next week as being a kind of breathing new life into the deal? no, i don't. it was very interesting that when john major was outlining his proposal today about can we get a majority around one or other of these ideas, he used the term "tribal politics" and that is what we're down to here. it is a very confrontational tribal politics. so, if you say something about customs union, ok, but labour won't vote for that. but we're beyond that now. it doesn't matter who's in downing street. look, there are 70—odd days between now and the time at the end of march britain is due to leave. about half of those are parliamentary sitting days. there is such agreement... that is the prerequisite for anything that we've been discussing today. but we have other problems.
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there will be european parliament elections in may. is britain going to participate in elections or not? the focus on finding a solution now to this deal, which is a dead parrot, is dead, is clearly dead, is wrong because you have to consider all the other things. even if this went through, then there is a problem with the european parliament and there is another ten years of unpicking this possible deal, customs union. so, it doesn't end the approval of the deal. that is where a responsible leader should say let's go to the public and start being honest about what is good to happen. and yet the one option that we haven't spoken about and i just want to finish with very briefly. we have seen europe this past week ramping up its preparations for no deal on march 29th. is that because they really
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believe now that that is a serious possibility? absolutely. let's make no mistake, eight weeks from march 29th, the default option is that britain will crash out of the european union with extraordinary consequences for britain and the rest of europe. there is a calculation that it is going to cost up to 1% of the european union budget. this is apocalypse. sojust very quickly, we heard borisjohnson saying on friday, oh, well, the europeans, when it gets close to the mark, they will compromise. is that a bold game of bluff that the uk should now be playing or is that misjudging europe? borisjohnson has been misjudging europe and a lot of other things! i completely agree, no deal is the default position and emphatically should not be ruled out as to what might happen considering the complete paralysis. however, historians will look back on that with complete fascination if that does happen. a majority of mps, a leader, prime minister all to be opposed to no deal, for it to happen would be extraordinary,
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but it might. on that extraordinary point, we will leave that topic, but no doubt we will be back with it over the coming weeks. now to a topic which vexes relations between the european union, the united states and their mutual friends in the middle east, and that topic is iran. last year, president trump abandoned his predecessor's nuclear deal with tehran and reimposed economic sanctions unilaterally. europe had been reluctant to follow suit. but the us hasjust begun herding allies for a global summit on middle east security next month, focused heavily on iran, and that is set to take place in warsaw. barry, let's come to you first. i want to ask you first about trump's sanctions on iran because we haven't given those as much attention as they deserve. the impact inside iran. he says we'ave had a miraculous effect, we're forcing tehran to think again. just how hard are those sanctions biting? we were talking about the british mess, but now we are going to a global mess, which is coming very, very soon because of
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president trump's position. his strategy is dividing people, to be honest. he is dividing the middle east, he is dividing europe, he is dividing the international community. but there are two developments, two very important developments. the trip to the middle east. security of state. he went there, mike pompeo, and he went to mobilise the arabs in the gulf states, egypt and jordan, to establish an arab nato to confront iran. this is one thing. the second thing — he called for middle east peace and security conference in warsaw, poland. so, he created problems on both sides because many people in the middle east, the six gulf countries, they are divided. three of them would like to join trump in his adventure against iran. the three others are reluctant, egypt are also reluctant to do so. the other worrying point — he said we are moving now from containing iran, the containment of iran, to actually attacking iran. so, what he means is — because john bolton, the national security adviser, he wanted a regime change in iran. are they capable to do so? i don't know. so, he created problems on both
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sides because many people in the middle east, the six gulf countries, they are divided. three of them would like to join trump in his adventure against iran. the three others are reluctant, egypt are also reluctant to do so. the other worrying point — he said we are moving now from containing iran, the containment of iran, to actually attacking iran. so, what he means is — because john bolton, the national security adviser, he wanted a regime change in iran. are they capable to do so? i don't know. tell me, how tough is the situation in iran right now? definitely there is a sanction against iran imposed
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by the united states. so, it's biting and causing economic pain? there is pain now, the currency is collapsing, the standard of living is actually very high. food, other goods have been rocketing in price, iranian people are not actually coping with that. so, do they blame the own government? they are divided. part of the iranians say the government policy is responsible, why are we involved in syria? why we are involved in iraq? why we are involved in yemen? other people say, no, i think it is the americans who are putting pressure on us. what i want to say is that because president trump and his policy is not working, it is making a lot of confusion among the iranian people. when he imposed a sanction, suddenly he changed his mind, he exempted eight countries from actually importing iranians oil. so, the problem is now the iranians are exporting oil. let's get a european perspective
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because barry is saying that the gulf allies are divided on how they respond to this trump move against iran. what about europe? this conference is taking place in warsaw in eastern europe. of course not. you have to understand that iran is the biggest point of division and confrontation between europe and president trump. so, after years of painstakingly putting together the iran nuclear deal, the europeans saw president trump withdrawing unilaterally and putting sanctions in place unilaterally. so, their biggest guarantors of this deal are britain, france, germany and the european union as a whole. what the europeans are saying basically is that we are not going to be bullied by america into putting sanctions because we don't believe they are right. they don't believe that it is a constructive way. they basely want to continue
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with their current carrots and sticks policy? yes, what the europeans have done is they have put in place in an alternative payment system, the special purpose vehicle, which should be approved next monday. so, the timing is a reaction to that and the europeans are saying we are going to be able to pay iran and to kind of soften the american sanctions with our own system. and yet, a lot of european companies are already abiding, as i understand it, by american sanctions because they're worried about the possibility of damage to their business in america if they don't. absolutely, so it is not going to be easy, but it is a massive confrontation. absolutely, so it is not going to be easy, but it is a massive confrontation.
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we are talking about the major european countries saying we are not going to abide by american sanction, so there is a challenge to america in the economic world system, so it's very, very significant. the warsaw summit is an attempt to split europe and to put the eastern europeans against other countries in europe. and i believe it's a very ill—judged attempt and is not going to bring anything positive. because what is the point of having a middle east summit in warsaw without the european union and without the main, major european countries? what's the answer that question? i get the impression that the polls would rather they have the summit somewhere else.
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they are more worried about russia than they are about iran. poland would rather have the summit somewhere else. they want the americans to build a big military base on polish soil. but, yes, i mean, we're at the third birthday of the nuclear deal. it took ten years to negotiate. america has been out of it now for a year. the whole thing is on life support, a lot of european companies have been leaving in droves, there are still a few hanging in there. but if you're told by trump, you ain't going to do business with the us if you do business with iran, of course you're going to go. they are trying to split up european partners and it is really the united states, israel and saudi arabia who want to adopt the... your thought on this, steve?
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i was offered one when i had no thoughts, i haven't been following the detail, i've been so immersed in brexit. the utter incoherence of american foreign policy makes it so difficult to respond rationally to any initiatives. you have trump appeasing north korea but being hawkish in iran. two, i did follow very closely the embryonic european union approach to iran. i think it happened quite soon after the war in iraq, actually, and it was an example of a highly effective act of diplomacy involving in the uk, having been so hawkish in iraq. and it looked as if it was having a very positive, constructive impact. you then have the tragedy of trump, but also britain pulling out of the european union at a moment when, which is very rarely powerful, was powerful. which brings us full circle. i'm afraid we have to leave it. that's it from dateline london for the week.
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we are back same time next week. hello. monday gets off to a quiet, frosty start to many of us, things will be quite different, though, by the end of the day as we see quite a vigorous weather system moving in from the north—west. the map of scotla nd from the north—west. the map of scotland and northern ireland quite quickly will bring gusts of about 60 miles per hour on the denials and
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here is the brain into western scotla nd here is the brain into western scotland through the afternoon. hill snow in scotland and much of england and wales will stay dry. maybe the odd shower, wales and the south—west. this is the weather with snow to the hills in scotland, northern england sweeps south among the evening and night. gusty winds with that, maybe a bit of wet snow. wintry showers followed towards the north—west as well. temperatures dipped low enough to touch of frost. tuesday, the showers to northern and western scotland, wales, the west of england, maybe not just western scotland, wales, the west of england, maybe notjust in the hills, pushing a little bit further east across england during the day and it will be quite a cold day, especially in that north—west of england. welcome to bbc news, broadcasting to viewers
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in north america and around the globe. i'm reged ahmad. our top stories: affected by the global slowdown and a trade war with the us, latest data shows china's economy is slowing at a rate not seen for almost three decades. what next for brexit? theresa may prepares to unveil her latest proposals to parliament, but the divisions remain. what we are now getting are some of those who were always absolutely opposed to the result of the referendum trying to hijack brexit, and in fact steal the result from the people. tear gas and clashes in greece as thousands rally against the macedonia name deal. and the stargazing treat set to dazzle the night sky. the lunar eclipse worth waiting up for.
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