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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  January 22, 2019 4:30am-5:00am GMT

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the president of zimbabwe, emmerson mnangagwa, has cut short a state visit to russia and flown home to address an economic crisis which has sparked angry protests and a brutal crackdown by his security forces. opponents, campaigning against the doubling of fuel prices, question why soldiers are using live ammunition, beating protesters, and arresting many in their homes. britain's prime minister has told parliament she will go back to brussels to try to win more concessions from the european union, on brexit. she hopes for movement on the contentious issue of the backstop, intended to keep an open border on the island of ireland. whatsapp is limiting its users to forwarding any single message no more than 5 times. the aim is to prevent the spread of false information, so—called fake news. whatsapp, owned by facebook, already introduced the policy in india six months ago. it is 4:30am in the morning. it is
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time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. tanzania is one of africa's fastest—growing nations economically and demographically as well. it is also governed by one of the continent's most controversial leaders, presidentjohn magafuli, otherwise known as the ‘bulldozer‘. my guest today is one of his leading domestic opponents, tundu lissu. at least he was until gunmen pumped more than 20 bullets into his body in 2017. tundu lissu survived and he has rejoined the fight against a ruler he describes as a petty dictator. but maybe ta nzanians like strongman rule? somehow, miraculously, you survived an assassination attempt that saw 20 bullets pumped into your body.
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how are you today? i am very well. very well compared to what i was 1a months ago. as you say, i was shot multiple times. i was shot 16 times to be exact. i guess some bullets hit the car rather than you because they sprayed... those that hit me were 16 bullets. those that sprayed the car, i'm told were 38. wow. so 16 hits and 22 surgeries later and here i am. you seem to believe that there was a definite political intent to that attack upon you. yes. absolutely. what is your proof? the proof is in the circumstances leading up to the attack. you see, for about six weeks before i was shot there were people following me, following my
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car everywhere i went. there were, you know, they were everywhere i went there would be a car tailing me. but that could have been anybody. for those who don't know, you were quite a public figure in tanzania, not just because you are a senior opposition party member, the opposition whip in parliament, but you are also the head of the legal association. the national bar association. so, probably, there were many people, i dare say, some them bad people, who may have had an animus against you — you can't be sure who. those we have proof of having a bad animus against me is the government. for one year preceding the attack on me in september 2017, i was arrested eight times,
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charged in court with this or that offence of sedition. this is a free—speech offence, 6 times. there were open calls by people who we know to be members of the ruling party who called openly for my assassination after i had denounced the president, after i had revealed that one of his pet projects, the acquisition of new aircraft for air tanzania, had been seized in canada because of his breach of contract while he was serving as minister of public works. you made a series of serious allegations of corruption and the president has, of course, denied and dismissed all of them. equally, it should be said, that in the intervening months, the 1a or 15 months since the assassination attempt the government and the authorities in tanzania have come up with no evidence pointing to any association with the government in terms of this attack.
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but you don't have the evidence. listen, stephen. i am the chief whip of the official opposition. i'm a parliamentary leader. i live in a government housing compound that is heavily guarded 2a hours, seven days a week. every apartment block inside that compound is guarded 2a—hours, seven days a week. and on the day of the attack, in broad daylight, it was one o'clock in the afternoon during the lunch break. during the parliamentary sessions. gunmen followed me from parliament into this heavily guarded government housing compound where ministers and members of parliament, the deputy speaker, so on and so forth, where they all live, and there was absolutely no protection. no guard at the gate. there was no security whatsoever. i understand all that.
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but i am also mindful of legal niceties here and the president did say, afterthe attack! and he called immediately on law enforcement to catch the president, he has never ever spoken in public about this attempted assassination. never. there was a tweet, there was a tweet, a very small very quick tweet and it disappeared. but the president has never ever publicly spoken about the assassination attempt. the president — and this comes from the speaker of parliament — the president has blocked efforts to have me treated at the cost of parliament. which is my statutory right.
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just again, to keep people informed of what has happened since, in the year or more since the attack you have had to have medical treatment first in kenya but extensive treatment and rehabilitation in belgium. so you have been based in belgium for quite a while and you have had a lot of time to reflect. when you think of some of the things you said in the lead up to the summer of 2017, before the assassination attempt, you called the president a petty dictator. at one point you called on the international community to treat tanzania, and i quote you directly, as the skunk of the world. and now that you have had time to reflect, do you think you went over the top? governments that kill their citizens, governments that use the security forces to target their political opponents, governments that prohibit political rights which are protected by the constitution,
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governments that cause civilians to be abducted and disappear like it was with those obnoxious latin american dictatorships of the 60s and 70s, the governments that have occasioned loss of lives, that destroy innocent lives in the world, those governments deserve to be described how disappointed are you that the tanzanian people, they listen to you, they listen to the president, they weigh up the different messages, but the president enjoys an approval rating of over 50%, reaching 70% in some areas. there is every sign that he and the ruling party will win and win big in the next round of elections. mr sackur, i will say this.
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during the first year of president magafuli's tenure we were told his approval rating was in the high 80s. one year later, last year, last year, early last year, one of those pollsters came out with polling that showed that the president's approval rating had dropped to 61%. do you know what happened? the managing director of that polling firm had his citizenship questioned, his passport seized and for all intents and purposes they will never do it again because now, immediately after, a new statistics law was passed which says that if you bring out statistics that put the government in a bad light, you are a criminal. on this matter of whether the president is seen by his people to be doing a good job,
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can we just consider a few of the achievements of this administration. the magafuli administration. he promised to cut out much of the corruption in the country. in the first few weeks and months of his administration thousands of ghost workers were removed from the pay role. we saw senior figures be removed from the port authority and revenue service because they had been systematically corrupt. if you ask tanzanians today, according to all the evidence, they feel their country is cleaner and less corrupt than it was when he took office. in africa, that is quite an achievement. we also saw the president building a brand—new airport in his home village, like mobutu sese soku in the middle of the forest somewhere in the congo. we saw the president... and they say it openly, that the president is purchasing
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aircraft for air tanzania corporation. that is not the president'sjob. you point to specific examples but i point to systems. the tax and revenue service is bringing in more today — $913; thsfggbgutr- why? hang on. you say he attacked private investors. he said he would get tougher
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with them and he has delivered and the tanzanian people, again i return to the polling evidence, it seems they like what he has done. whose polling are we talking about here? when the president and his party and his government passed laws that inhibit independent verification of the statistics provided publicly, who is there to say... well, i don't want to stick to polls. let's take the analysis of a respected independent observer of tanzania, dan paget, who writes on tanzania and affairs at oxford university. he says the magafuli has defied the assumption that african states cannot take on big multinational corporations and win. he sought out a confrontation with the mining companies that eventually led to barrick gold and others agreeing a deal that involves substantial
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concessions to tanzania. are you seriously saying you do not like that? barric has not agreed any deal. we are told by the president himself that barrick had agreed to pay $300 million as... i don't know what you would call it, like a golden handshake. but the president himself made a statement that they have agreed to make a payment, an immediate payment of $300 million. they have not paid a penny. not a penny. they were slapped with a tax bill of $194 billion. they have not paid a penny. not a penny. it seems you don't even want the government to take on the big foreign corporates. you have been complaining, saying that we must be nicer to them. i have not said that at all.
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i spent 19 years from 1999 when everybody, magafuli included, were singing the praises of these investors in the mining sector ripping us off. 19 years as the sole voice to the contrary. if i may say, if it is so clear that magafuli is failing the people, why is it in the last year, a substantial number — at least six, possibly depending on how you read it, ten members of the official opposition in parliament — and, of course, there are various parties in the opposition — but at least ten members it seems have defected to the government's side, including some of the most senior figures who were leading the opposition to magafuli are now on his side? there has been a major threat, a major commercial enterprise in politics in tanzania over the past one year.
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what do you mean? i mean precisely that — that people have been given money to change sides, people have been promised that if you change sides, we will ensure that you will return as a candidate and we will use whatever force we have in our capacity to make sure that you win! and that's exactly what happened! you're a very senior lawyer so you know better than i that it's very dangerous to bandy about these allegations when you don't have specific evidence when, of course, the people who you're making the allegations against — i.e some seniorfigures in the opposition — are not here to defend themselves and they absolutely categorically deny all the charges you've just laid at their door. let's take one example. lawrence masha — he was home affairs minister in the government of kikwete for a while, then he became an opponent of magafuli's — was very hard on magafuli — but in recent times has decided what he sees from magafuli is actually quite positive. he says "while you may not always agree with the president and the way he does things, his heart
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is in the right place. he is having an impact on the lives of everyday ta nzanians. " mr sackur, in the three years since president magafuli came to office, 380 civilians, villagers, in various villages in kibiti, —— to office, 380 civilians, villagers, in kibiti, rufiji and mkuranga district, just south of dar es salaam, have disappeared. bodies have been washed up, found floating in river rufiji, in the indian ocean, beaches. this is unprecedented in the history of tanzania, we have never seen anything like this! we've seen, in those three years, political opponents of the government and his party being murdered with complete impunity. no investigation. no arrest. not even suspicion. martyred in broad daylight! this is unprecedented. now, is this the price that we must pay in order to have less corruption? is this the tanzania you want, where the language being used and the allegations being made are getting ever more inflammatory? the government, clearly,
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is worried by this. they've passed a whole raft of measures and proposed some more, which many would say repress freedom of speech. they say it's because they are so very worried that freedom of speech in tanzania is being abused by people spreading false allegations, making up stories. that's why they have put new controls on social media, on bloggers, they've also, from time to time, closed down newspapers, radio stations. ijust wonder whether, again, on reflection, you feel that the way you're making your political arguments is fanning the flames or actually calling tensions. —— cooling tensions. stephen, what i have said about the killings of civilians in the rufiji area, what i have said about the disappearances
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of political opponents, what i have said about the crackdown on the press, what i have said about, you know, individual bloggers or people sending these messages on whatsapp groups and so on and so forth, has been said with more or less the same vehemence by the charges, by the press, that have been spoken in parliament, they have been said by the international community, they have been repeated basically by the european union in their recent resolution. so what i'm saying — what i'm saying is nothing absolutely nothing new for those who know what has been happening in tanzania for the past three years. it faces you with a choice, though. because the government, even with its latest legislation where it wants to repeal the political parties act to make it much for difficult opposition political parties to conduct what is being called activism on the streets, you then face a choice. are you going to confront this government and its repressive legislation openly? and that could, of course,
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lead to violence? or are you going to find ways which are peaceable rather than potentially confrontational? we have always — we have always fought political battles peacefully. we have never, ever, advocated the use of violence as a political weapon. let's talk specifically about the reasons why the international community, in the last few months, has expressed grave concerns about what is happening in tanzania and what the magafuli administration is doing. they are particularly focused on some of the highly controversial conservative social messages and actions being made by the government. in particular, the world bank cancelled a $300 million loan to tanzania after the country, the government, reiterated its policy of banning pregnant girls from going to school. the eu withdrew its ambassador and it voiced particular concern about the government's
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determination, it seems, to root out homosexuality and impose prison sentences of up to 30 years. that has been the law for quite some time. it is not magafuli's... i know, but the government now is saying that it wants new measures to identify and punish homosexuals. so my question to you is, as a key figure in the opposition, are you prepared to speak out loudly against these repressive social measures of the current government? we are on record that the issue of pregnant schoolgirls continuing with their education is a government policy. it is magafuli's own government policy. it is in their own party manifesto. it is in their party documents. it is part of our law. so for the president, for the president to stand up and say "we will no longer educate schoolgirls because they are pregnant"
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is going not only against the law, it is also going against the stated party policy of his own party. so you're clear on that. you absolutely reject his stand on that. what about his defence of the punitive laws on homosexuality? would you, as a leading opposition figure, here on hardtalk, speak out against those punitive laws? president magafuli has said this and... i'm not asking what he — we know he's deeply socially conservative on these issues. he hasn't — we have to get the record straight, steve! the president, the foreign minister, dr mahiga, has said that whatever actions were taken by the regional commissionerfor dar es salaam, those are not government policy. that is not government policy! alright? i want to know — and i dare say many people around the world would like to know — is a senior african opposition
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politician prepared, in public, to say "these laws that we have currently in our country on homosexuality, punishment of up to 30 years in prison, are utterly unacceptable, and if i achieve power, we will get rid of those laws"? every individual is entitled to their privacy. we should never allow the government to start peeping into people's bedrooms. matters... so you would eliminate all of these laws which criminalise homosexuality? let me, let me put my... please. yes, because we're out of time almost. would you eliminate the laws that criminalise and punish homosexuality. if they violate, and i think they violate the privacy, the right to privacy that is protected by the constitution, then those laws are definitely unconstitutional. by the constitution of tanzania, i'm not talking about any other constitution. 0ur constitution says these are private matters and they should remain private matters. in the course of this interview, you've outlined so many different areas where you say the president is taking tanzania in the wrong direction.
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yes. you've accused him of an awful lot of bad stuff during our conversation. yes. are you, having had your — all of your operations, your surgery and your rehabilitation, are you now ready to go back to tanzania to fight this president politically, put your name on the ballot for the next presidential election? my treatment is still ongoing. but i have stated clearly that when the doctors declare me fit to go, i will go to tanzania. that is why. i am not in exile. i'm in belgium because i was shot 16 times and doctors have had to operate on me. so are you prepared to go back to tanzania without specific security and safety guarantees? i will go back to tanzania when i'm fully fit. and the president and his government will have to tell the world whether returning home to tanzania, i will be protected by the government — as i should. the government has a responsibility to make sure that i am safe.
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i'll go back to continue the work that i was chosen to do. and you spoke about the ballot. i have stated if the people of tanzania, if the members of my party believe that i'm the correct person to face president magafuli in 2020, i'm more than ready to do so. tundu lissu, we'll keep watching that story. thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you so much, stephen. thank you so much, steve, for having me. hello there.
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it looks set to be quite treacherously icy out and about first thing this morning. we've had the overnight rain, sleet and snow giving way to wintry showers, which could well wash off some of the salt off the roads, so slippery certainly out there this morning. this is the huge swathe of cloud tied in with the weather front that's bringing that rain and hill snow, and it's going to bring substantial snow and problems to parts of europe once again. behind it, cold air coming in, so we've got those wintry showers as well. we've seen a few centimetres of snow on the hills in the north, courtesy of this weather front, could even be some snow at lower levels for a time as it clears and these showers packing in behind progressively turning to sleet and snow, possibly even at lower levels and the heavier showers, and these are the towns and city temperatures, so out in the countryside, and on the roads and the pavements, the temperatures at freezing and hence the risk of it being quite treacherously icy. so that cold weather front does what it says. it brings in colder air behind it, giving quite significant snow across parts of europe. but for ourselves, a bitter north—westerly wind. so those areas exposed to the north—west wind in particular
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seeing a lot of showers through the day ahead. possibly snow through the central lowlands through the morning rush, across the antrim hills, so affecting some of the highly populated parts of northern ireland as well with that wintriness, and then progressively, they'll move into north—western parts of england and wales. at the same time, we're still clearing our weather front and turning it to snow quite readily, not too far away so there's a potential there for some wet snow as it clears away from east anglia and the south—east, and hence the ice risk through the day progress further east turning to snow. there'll be some hail, some thunder, gusty winds near them as we've seen on the weather front and with only 3—6 degrees temperature—wise, therefore the potential‘s there for snow to lower levels across the midlands perhaps through the afternoon, and those winds will make it feel even more bitter than it has recently, but through the evening, there's a potential this evening that we could see a few centimetres of snow, even at lower levels across the south—east and east anglia, before finally the showers ease a little through the night and then a widespread frost will follow,
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even colder through the coming night, —10 potentially across the snowfields of scotland, but that does promise that wednesday should be drier, fewer showers, lighter winds, perhaps still that wintry shower risk for eastern and south—eastern parts of england and later in the day, it clouds over in the west, but it's still bitterly cold despite lighter winds and despite the sunshine. is there anything milder on the horizon? well, possibly on friday temporarily, but the cold air‘s never too far away. as ever, you can get all the warning information from our website. this is the briefing. i'm maryam moshiri. our top story: conflict and climate change — mali — a country devastated by violence now faces a battle of a different kind. we bring you a special report. climate change is changing everything and making it much worse. poverty, extremism and the conflicts over land and water just
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poverty, extremism and the conflicts over land and waterjust to survive. theresa may confirms she'll seek new concessions from the eu on the future of the irish border after brexit. but what is the reaction from europe? unrest in zimbabwe. the opposition claims a brutal crackdown is taking place after an increase in fuel prices sparked protests. cuts
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