hello, you‘re watching newsday on the bbc. i‘m rico hizon in singapore. i'm kasia madera with bbc news. the headlines. our top story. the archbishop of mumbai admits the archbishop of mumbai admits that he could've handled allegations that he could‘ve handled allegations of sexual abuse better and faster, after a bbc investigation. of sexual abuse better and faster, this comes ahead of an historic vatican summit on abuse after a bbc investigation. later on thursday. bangladesh says there is "no this ahead of an historic vatican question" of shamima begum being allowed to enter the country, summit on abuse later on thursday. after the british government said they intended to revoke her british citizenship. bangladesh dismisses suggestions she described the that shamima begum might be allowed to enter the country, decision as unjust. after britain removes her uk citizenship. and this video is ms begum says she trending on bbc.com. expected more sympathy. one of the biggest nights in british music has i‘m kasia madera in london. taken place in london. also in the programme... winners at the brits the british prime minister has more included ariana grande, and the rock group ‘the 1975‘ talks in brussels on a day when three of her conservative mps who took home awards for best british group and album of the year. resigned in protest at how she is handling brexit. i think i‘m a land—lover! laughter. now on bbc news: hardtalk.

welcome to hardtalk. today i have journeyed to the south coast of england to meet one of the great women pioneers of photojournalism. marilyn stafford. she was born in the united states but she moved to paris where she became a protege of the brilliant. cartier—bresson. like him, she loved it to capture intimate portraits of ordinary people. she has worked and worked on and on fashion catwalks. now at 93, her work is being admired by a new generation. so what gives her pictures their power?

marilyn stafford, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. let's start way back. you trained as an actress. you spent a while as a nightclub singer. and yet you really found your creative voice in photography. what was it about photography that reached into your soul? i have been called an accidental photographer. because i really did not set out to do the photography at all. the photography wasn't something that was just there. when i was a child, everybody had a little box brownie, every family had a little box brownie. and so the photography was just part of life. it wasn't anything. it wasn't photography.

it was just you had a camera and you took pictures. would you say you are a natural observer, sometimes a little bit removed and looking in on things? i think probably yes. i think probably to explain it to you, i remember taking my first photograph and why i took my first photograph. it was on a family picnic and we were by a stream. and the stream was a very, very clear water running over pebbles. it wasn't very deep. and i was standing in it, in this stream, and feeling emotional watching the water over the stones. and ijust had this urge. ‘i want to have this remembered'. the feeling, remembered. which is interesting because it leads immediately to a thought about your association in paris.

once you had given up on the acting and you had moved to paris and you are doing some singing, but you are also beginning to use you camera — you got to meet one of the greatest 20th century photographers henri cartier—bresson. and his thing was about capturing that decisive moment, being ready and understanding the importance of the moment. and that seems to have resonated with you. that resonated with me in relation, again, to the feeling. because what was said in the photograph was what i wanted to bring out. as a child, i opened

to life magazine with photography and also i went to the cinema and there were newsreels. i saw was going around and i suppose there was a churning of the emotion of, ‘i want to capture something ‘and say something'. but i was very moved by what was happening around me. and that is why i really became interested in documentary photography rather than just taking the water rolling over the stones. so it was a desire to tell stories and the stories of people. absolutely. and i think that i am really a storyteller at heart and i want to tell stories. but i want the stories to mean something. and i also want the stories to produce an effect in the end. but if we are talking now about those early years of photography,

the late 40s and early 1950s, you are a woman in a man's world. and i'm thinking of some of your very well—known pictures and one of the inner slums of paris. where you spent days and days filming particularly street children. you must have been quite particular to the local people — this american woman, with a camera, constantly taking pictures. well, it's interesting that you should say that. because when i went out photographing with ca rtier—bresson, that's exactly what happened. he was very tall, he wore a hat and his little light lit up there. i was a very small and i was a woman.

and i was carrying a big rolleiflex camera, and this was post—war france. you didn't walk around and see many people, let alone a woman, taking photographs. so in a funny kind of way, i was a decoy for him because i would be there with my big camera and he was able to tower above me and nobody would notice him. what do you think cartier—bresson taught you? he loved your work and he was something of a mentor to you. absolutely. what was it do you think that he saw in you? i couldn't tell you. i really don't know what was going on in his mind. i only know that he never taught directly, in the sense that when i would show him a photograph he would say, ‘now this is what you have to do,‘ and all that sort of thing. he never behaved like that. he would make gentle suggestions. ‘if you framed it this way, it would have that kind ‘of a sense coming out, but leaving it this way it doesn't ‘bring out that feeling'.

and one of the things i learned from him was — if you're going out in the street, especially, be unobtrusive. and this lasted for the whole of my life. and you, it seems really liked being outside. in particular in spontaneous moments for ordinary people, i think you made a conscious decision to avoid studio work is much as possible. yes. i think you could say that, from one point of view that was because of the technology and i am not a technical person. and ijust hated the whole business of cables on the floor and lights. and i prefer natural light, as it comes, and the documentary approach rather than the studio set up.

it seems to me you wanted to find raw subject matter. for example, you went off to north africa — to tunisia during the terrible french war — to try and prevent algerian independence. the french were bombing villages, you went off to tunisia, where refugees were pouring over the border, having been forced from their homes. and some of your pictures, again, caused a stir. i think one was on the front page of the observer newspaper. which was my first front page. yes. so you were close to that world of war photography for a time, even if you didn't go right into it. but i wasn't interested in the war. i was interested in the refugees. post—world war ii, there were a lot of what they called at the time "misplaced people". but before that, there were also people who were misplaced,

who were migrants. i was very moved, again when i was younger, by the photographs of dorothea lange who photographed the migrant workers who had to move because of the dust bowl and the winds. and the great depression. as a child, people would come to the door selling little rags and things. they were the jewish refugees from the oncoming holocaust. i was made aware of all these people who were in danger, who needed their story told. and i wanted to tell the story of the people in algeria who were refugees. and who had been totally uplifted from their homes.

nobody was talking about the refugees. that focus on people in the gravest of circumstances who had suffered so much, i just wonder what impact that had upon you. i am very mindful not so long ago i interviewed don mccullin the great british war and conflict photographer, and he said sometimes on assignments in war zones, ‘sometimes i felt like i was carrying, ‘not carrying the negative so much as pieces of human ‘flesh that come with me. ‘it was as if i was carrying the suffering of the people ‘i had photographed'. did that kind of intense deep emotional response come for you, too? of course. you can't but not do so. when you see people in terrible situations, you want to do something. and maybe through the photography, one can do something. i believe it can do something. do you think photographs

can change things? possibly not as we think of change as, this becomes that immediately. but i think it can bring thoughts to people. and certainly there are very iconic photographs which you will remember, which make people think. you clearly had a campaigning spirit as a photojournalist. idid, yes. and yet i'm also mindful of your personal life because even when you were covering the algerian war and the refugees, you were heavily pregnant. yes. and it is often different for women because they do have to bear children, if they choose to have children. sure. and that of course has a huge impact on their lives. and we have reflected already on the degree to which photography was a man's world. do you, when you look at the arc of your career,

think that in the end some of the choices you made, for example later in your career specialising in fashion rather than travelling quite so much to difficult places — was it partly driven by being a mother than by choices you had to make in your personal life? when i came to england in the mid—60s, there were probably about 10—12 women photographers on fleet street. of those, most of them were doing feature type photography, not news. and the door was pretty much closed against women. i came here — and i had separated from my husband by then — i had a small child. i had to earn a living. the only open door was fashion. because fashion, homes, decoration was women's area. and so i had go there.

and i was able to get work in the fashion area. to be blunt about it, did men who by and large ran the newspapers back then and ran the picture desks in the news desks — did they actively at times work against the interest of women and actually belittle women and seek to keep women out? there were some men who were marvellous and really helped me, and i'm very grateful to them because as they were the ones in power, so to speak, they helped open the door. there were the others who were exactly like you say. i remember going to a very big film company and asking for work as a still photographer.

and this smug gentleman said, ‘i have just the rightjob for you'. and he said, ‘we had a scene that is going to meet you to get out ‘on the wing of an aeroplane in the sky and should from there'. and ijust looked at them and said, "i'm sorry, and said, "i'm sorry, i don't do that sort of thing". he said, ‘wwell, there you are, you can't hire women, ‘they won‘t do these things‘. well, i am sure that there are some men who would not have wanted that sort of thing either. one thing you did do, and it actually came even before you left the united states, was from time to time you got

the opportunity to film and stills at times some of the iconic people of the 20th century. starting i suppose with albert einstein. you got the most incredible opportunity to go to his home and found him, photographed him. later it was indira gandhi. and a host of other famous names. when you were faced with the challenge of capturing something about these world—famous people, how did you go about it? i suppose with naivete. ijust thought i could do it. laughter i'm not really a finger or a planner or anything. i just go with my feeling. the albert einstein thing was... first of all, he was so gentle and kind. he made us very welcome. i went there with these documentary film—makers who wanted him to speak out against the atom bomb. and he did, in the film. but before they were filming, it was

all on 60 mm film at the time. there was the producer and the director. and while the lights were being set up, the director was talking to him. and he looked at the director and he said, "i have a question for you. "can you please explain to me about how many feet per second " per second the film goes through the camera?" and the director explained all of this, i couldn‘t explain it to you. and einstein rescinded there like a little boy. and after all of this had clarified he said, "thank you very much, i understand now". giving her access to these remarkable people and photographs that live long in the memory and continue to be looked at today, and going back to this point about photography in your area being by and large a man‘s world in a man‘s profession, do you feel that

you never quite got the recognition that your male peers got? no, not really. i was doing my work and i just did it. i didn‘t think in terms of recognition at all. you worked a lot and fashion, as you have described it. yes. you want so much that she weren‘t so much a catwalk photographer, but you did a lot of glamour and fashion. i have looked ata glamour and fashion. i have looked at a lot of your fashion photography. you did do it in a particular way which is quite different from many others working in the field at the time. for example, you often included ordinary people in yourfashion example, you often included ordinary people in your fashion shots. he would have this beautiful woman wearing beautiful clothes, but in the corner of the picture or to one side there will be just a passer—by. ora kid who side there will be just a passer—by. or a kid who happened to be watching. yes. and you let them be in the picture. yes. partly that was

because in the early days, in the 50s, when i was doing fashion it was the early time of ready to wear. i was also having my love affair with the streets of paris and it pleased me to take these clothes which would be worn by women like me in places where i would be walking about. of course and some of these places were the local kids. at any place you go with the camera, you‘re going to have masses of kids trailing behind you. and so i figured, get them in the act as well. and they love it. and i had a wonderful time and i had a wonderful time. the models had a wonderful time. and i think the photographs weren‘t just fashion photographs, they were fun photographs. when you look today at the celebrities with their stylists

and it their image controllers and everything is so orchestrated, that you be a photographer in that world today, under that sort of control? i suppose if i had to earn my living, then i would do it. one does do certain things because of necessity. in some of the photographs i did were out of necessity. i had to survive. i had a child. and i set up, ata necessity. i had to survive. i had a child. and i set up, at a given moment, a small agency with another photographer to cover the fashions in paris, milan, rome, new york, london, for a five times a year. and i was earning my living with this kind of photography, and it allowed

me to work very intensely four times a yearand me to work very intensely four times a year and have enough money to go into the kind of photographs that i wa nted into the kind of photographs that i wanted to do. for instance, seven or eight trips to india. and to pay the bills. which brings us to the present day and your determination to promote women in the sort of campaigning documentary journalism that you have talked about, and which obviously is your first love in your own career. you‘ve got a price now in your name set up by the fossil documents group, which seeks out the best winning documentary photographer. what do you think defines the best of this campaigning documentary photographer that you are talking about? whether it be

social economic, environmental. what is it do you think that defines that? it's really the way that the photograph is taking to tell a story. it‘s all telling stories. and the winners of the two years that this award has been going are telling stories that people rarely hear about. and they are also showing in some way either a way that this problem that they are showing can be solved or helped, or what is being done or trying to be done. the three winners of this year‘s award: one is a turkish woman who is revealing the story of young

syrian refugees in turkey, women who are married off, very often probably sold by their families to survive and then after they‘ve been used up and then after they‘ve been used up a bit they are cast off, they are divorced. another of the winners is writing about female genital mutilation in europe. she‘s presently in france doing the story. another woman is showing the plight of the villages in wales where there have been mines that have been closed. how the people are pulling themselves up, and the ravages of themselves up, and the ravages of the closures of the minds but how

the closures of the minds but how the people are helping themselves and what is being done to help them. in other words, it‘s a negative situation that is showing what could be done or what is being done, if only people would get in there and do it. sounds to me like you believe in the power of the picture. the power of photography, as much today as he did when you started out right after world war ii. i think so, yes. very much. in one image, there can bea very much. in one image, there can be a very big emotional trust. that makes people think, feel and i hope do something about that feeling. marilyn stafford, it has been a pleasure talking to you. thank you for being on hardtalk. thank you

very much. hello. as advertised for several days, temperatures are now on the up. there will be sunnier days to come. but we are not there yet. for thursday expect a good deal of clout around. it is reallyjust late in the day it starts to brighten up. regardless of cloud or sunshine, it will be milder. talk about where the air is coming from, that is a bit of caribbean aircoming our air is coming from, that is a bit of caribbean air coming our way through thursday. by the end of the week and start of the weekend looking to northwest africa and the canaries for the source of our mild air. the temperatures will be several degrees above normal for the time of year. nowhere particularly cold as

thursday begins. this chart gives an indication of how much cloud or there will be. damp and drizzly as well and places to begin the day. you can still see a bit of patchy rain. north in scotland and northwest england into the afternoon, before it is is a way. you can pick out the land appearing among the cloud into the afternoon. these are gradually some sunny spells developing. we have established that this is a feat of mild aircoming from established that this is a feat of mild air coming from the south. it is fairly breezy with average speeds and a few dust of stronger winds, where you are closer to low—pressure out in the atlantic. again it is a feat of mild air, temperatures are above normal. with some decent sunshine in northeast scotland, maybe 18 degrees as possible. but widely temperatures are in the mid teens. clear spells around on thursday night. this weather front edges closer to northern ireland and western scotland with a strengthening lane. you can start to see a few spots of rain out of that. this is a fog developing a cross in parts of east anglia, the midlands, southern and especially southeast england. as ever, it will be patchy

in nature but some of it could well be quite dense as we start the day on friday. there isn‘t much wind here because you are closer to this area of high pressure. still this way front close to northern ireland and western scotland. more cloud around here at times on friday. maybe a few showers. more breeze in the west compared to elsewhere. some of the fog towards the southeast may linger into the first part of the afternoon in some spots. for many on friday, it is blue sky and sunshine. and of course, when you have happy sunshine it will contribute to that very mild field to the weather. some snow affecting parts of southeast europe, low—pressure close by. elsewhere for many dry with high—pressure. not just here elsewhere for many dry with high—pressure. notjust here but elsewhere in europe,. there is air coming from the canaries into the uk over the weekend. there could be some rain affecting parts of northern island and western scotland at times. still some dense fog practise across parts of england to start the day.