hello it's tuesday, it's10am, i'm victoria derbyshire. these 56 black men say they are stereotyped, ignored, not taken seriously. they say they are tired of seeing negative representations of themselves in the media. they say they walk into meetings and are judged by the colour of their skin. they're here today to tell you about their experiences. their faces theirfaces and their faces and their voices in that position. i believe this campaign is important to raise the aspirations of the next generation. i think it's important to start a dialogue. and wherever you are in the uk — what's your own experience? ministers threaten to resign unless the prime minister rules out a no—deal brexit.

she's in a cabinet meeting with many of them right now — we'll speak to one of them live. and, asjeremy corbyn has agreed to back a second referendum, his labour brexit secretary tells us another public vote is the best way to heal divisions in the country many people want to move on. they want closure. but the only way we can get that is on a brexit deal that has the confidence of parliament, and that people think is about right, or to remain. hear that full interview later in the programme. and, holly was 19 when she died after an asthma attack. her mum believes she wasn't using her inhaler as much as she should have because of the cost. she's not alone. now one charity claims that 75% of people with asthma struggle to pay for inhalers that help them breathe.

hello. welcome to the programme. we're live until ”am this morning. and this morning — have you experienced what some of these men in the studio today have experienced 7 good morning, everybody. good morning. stereotyping, feeling judged, overt or unconcsious bias and prejudice? we will talk about some of their experience and we want yours too. we also want your positive stories too asa also want your positive stories too as a black man living in britain in 2019. use the #victorialive. if you re emailing and are happy for us to contact you — and maybe want to take part in the programme — please include your phone number in your message. if you text, you ll be charged at the standard network rate. here's annita with a summary of the days news.

the prime minister is facing the possibility of ministerial resignations, after further calls from within her own party to either delay brexit or rule out leaving the eu without a deal. three ministers, margot james, richard harrington and claire perry, have said the government should extend negotiations if there's no agreement by mid—march. but david lidington, mrs may's effective deputy prime minister, has told the bbc that delaying the uk's exit would not solve the current difficulties. delaying article 50, deferring article 50, doesn't absolve you of the need to actually take decisions about the type of deal that is going to work and going to get a house of commons majority. so really, all politicians need to be focusing on their duty to the british people, which is to get that deal that will work for all parts of the uk, protect jobs and work for all parts of the uk, protectjobs and investment and living standards and command a majority in parliament. jeremy corbyn says labour would now support another brexit referendum if its alternative eu exit plan fails. but the opposition leader has been warned that a number of labour

mps could defy any move by the party to back a further referendum on brexit. the most senior catholic official in the world to be tried on charges of child sex abuse, has been found guilty. a legal order banning reporting of the vatican treasurer cardinal george pell 5 conviction in australia last year has been lifted, after further charges against him were dropped. the jury found pell abused two choir boys in the rooms of a melbourne cathedral in 1996. he will be sentenced on wednesday but has already lodged an appeal against his conviction. north korean leader kimjong—un has arrived in vietnam for a summit with us president donald trump. the two men will hold brief talks in the capital hanoi tomorrow before another meeting on thursday. it comes eight months after a historic first round of talks in singapore, which failed to produce a concrete plan for de—nuclearisation. plans to change the rules on organ donation in england are set to clear their final hurdle in parliament later today. under the new system, which would come into effect next year, consent would be presumed but people could opt out.

a similar system has been operating in wales since december 2015. families in england need better support in the early years to give children the best start in life, according to a group of mps. the health and social care committee said the first 1,000 days are critical, but not enough is done. it warns cuts to children's centres, health visiting and services to support parents have left families vulnerable. that's a summary of the main news. back to you, victoria. thank you, good morning. later on, we're going to be talking to one of the stars of the channel four drama derry girls about why she's marching to westminster this morning. siobhan mcsweeney, who plays sister michael, is part of a protest against northern ireland's strict abortion laws. get in touch with us

throughout the morning — use the #victorialive. there is whatsapp and facebook as well. "i may be sitting on a train and there's a spare seat next to me, and you see people looking to see if it's ok to sit next to me. and i have to gesture to let them know it is safe." that's the reason why this man — cephas williams — decided to bring 56 black men together to try to change perceptions. 21 of those 56 are here — they are entrepreneurs, founders of companies and charities, a court clerk, teachers, politicians. this is the first time so many of the group have been interviewed together. cephas has chosen to take head shots of all the black men wearing hoodies, to make a point. tell us what the point is. firstly, thank you for having us on the show, we have a lot of respect for you for reaching out in the first place. for me, the point of taking the series of head shots was two things. it was

a message to the media but also a message to my people. for me, i had got to a point in my life, i mentioned before, i had such up a studio, for the community, multi—studio space, for people in the community, we took over a building, i studied architecture, i fitted it out and opened it up to the community and nobody was talking about us and even receiving stumbling blocks from people who didn't want us to progress. i would flip through newspapers and the media andi flip through newspapers and the media and i would see a kid just got stabbed, another black man killed somebody, or another black boy is murdered, and i'm looking at my story and i'm like, they are not talking about the positive stuff and i'm not the only person in my position. i have set up a studio. but that is not the only representation of positive black men in the community and i got tired of it. it is not new. 2018, we saw it all over the place, sky put out a report that mentioned 56 black

people were murdered. at the time i started it, that's where the name 56 came from but i was like, let's start spotlighting people, black men in the community. i went to my studio one day and decided to start it and that was last year. i sent a couple of messages to people and the idea was people would recommend one person and the narrative behind that was to show we are connected as well. i could have easily chosen my mates. a lot of these men sitting here today, i didn't know them before today in the first honour met them was when they came through to them was when they came through to the studio and the hoodies concept was as much a part of the artistic direction as it is almost to put a pun on the juxtaposition of what we usually see in the media when we see a negative image of a black man, this idea of he hasjust done this and it's a lot of black boys that grow up seeing that image and they don't see a positive idea of what that means. understood. to introduce yourself. i've hopefully remembered

everybody‘s names but i'm bound to make a mistake. william, why did you agree to be photographed in a hoodie? my name is william and i am the founder of a watch brand and i thought this campaign was really important, especially for the next generation coming up. i think representation really does matter and growing up i didn't see much representation of entrepreneurs who looked like me. so to be able to join forces with all these amazing people and highlight the positive things we are doing in our environments and communities it is really important to me so that's why i decided to get involved. what about yourself, jonathan?” i decided to get involved. what about yourself, jonathan? i think everything that cehpas does is in line with the work i do, i have a phd that explores a lot of the experiences that we all have, so i focus on the workplace, and the negative stereotypes people bring into the workplace have an effect on us. into the workplace have an effect on us. can i ask what those negative stereotypes are. what have you experienced? let's

stereotypes are. what have you experienced ? let's move stereotypes are. what have you experienced? let's move it around. trevon. first of all, the perception that we are not particularly intelligent. as a teacher, when i go into these places, even from the children, they will expect me to behave a certain way, so they think of me asa behave a certain way, so they think of me as a caricature when we first meet, because of the negative representations they have seen, they would expect me to fit into that and the first thing i have to do is state this is not who i am. i have to spend the first part introducing myself and getting them to see me for who i actually am, rather than the stereotype. a lot of the time it is about us, if it is not violent, it is about us being jokey and silly and not being professional really. the beauty of this campaign is you are seeing professional black men in all kinds of fields and this is why i thought i wanted to be part of it. who else has an experience of a negative stereotype? i'm nathan.

i've got my own tech company. i've had some negative backlash. just things like micro—aggressions, how they will not know me and introduced themselves as a fist bump but everybody else gets a regular hello. laughter that is quite common. you have all laughed. you have all experienced that? carry on, nathan. just stuff like that, or when i was younger working in retail, i'm told, because of the way i look, i need to be extra smiley and friendly. why? so i don't scare the customers. they don't scare the customers. they don't say it directly but they hint at it, they say maybe have a thumbs up at it, they say maybe have a thumbs up and a smile and stuff like that, so you have to do extra things so that you come off normal, friendly 01’ that you come off normal, friendly or safe to speak to. who else? i'm rob, a property developer and a film producer. my business partner is

here today. how are you doing, mate? just in terms of a professional environment, networking meetings, for example, there is this weird vibe of how are you here? how have you managed to get here, kind of thing. obviously, it is not asked directly, but it is, ok, so what is your background and they try and dig in and try and almost catch you out as to how you have managed to get there. who do you know. that's the one. who invited you? ijust came. my name is king cas, by the way. one. who invited you? ijust came. my name is king (as, by the way. we know, king cas! laughter i grew laughter igrew up laughter i grew up in kent and i remember going to my friend's birthday party and he brought one of his best mates around and i'd never met him before so we around and i'd never met him before so we had a really good time. we we re young. so we had a really good time. we were young. and nojoke, william said to me, you know what, my dad

was wrong about your lot. wow! and i said, what does that mean, he said, you are a black guy and you know what they say. and i said, actually, i don't know. and we had a conversation that night. this was in the deep of kent, the village was cold stone, for goodness' sake, and we had a long conversation and i was willing to have that talk with him and he was like, wow, you guys are cool and he was like, wow, you guys are cool, and there is something to say about what parents allow their kids to believe. how old were you? i was 15. other experiences? iworked to believe. how old were you? i was 15. other experiences? i worked as an estate agent for six years and would be valuations on people's houses, sometimes up to the level of 3 million, two million and the feedback was, wow, you sound intelligent and it should not be a surprise that i know what i'm talking about, i've got a beard and interesting here and it is like i know what i'm talking about. the beauty of this campaign is a change is the narrative and allows you to

understand we are just as intelligent and have the ability to articulate ourselves as well as anybody else could. it is about changing the expectation of what we should be based on appearances. in 2019 it is not an accurate measure of how somebody should be like based on their looks, anyone can look a nyway on their looks, anyone can look anyway and be anyway. we will talk about why that is still happening but nigel, you wanted to come in. about why that is still happening but nigel, you wanted to come inlj ama but nigel, you wanted to come inlj am a comic brighter and touching on what others have said about perceptions today, it starts quite young. i rememberwhen i was in school, just be in quite well spoken, i'd get the feedback of, you sound white. and even at the time i didn't properly clock onto what that meant. what it means is that there isa meant. what it means is that there is a way you should speak if you are black and you don't fit that way, therefore, you fit this other way. it is people are most expecting the stereotype to come out of your mouth and when it doesn't it is a surprise. cephas, you have said sometimes in meetings you change your demeanour and mannerisms and

have put on a white voice. what does that mean? 100%, we have put on a white voice. what does that mean? 10096, we have had this position, nigel, cas, and i speak like this, although they are well spoken. doing business, i'm probably the only black person, and the only young black person sometimes, i have to put on a proper voice and annunciate, and maybe raise the level... laughter because, victoria, ifi laughter because, victoria, if i talk like this and tell them i want to put this and tell them i want to put this on the ballot sheet and move this on the ballot sheet and move this figure here, you get me? as much as i know what i'm talking about and i can make it happen, they will look at me and say he is not serious. but i can still perform. i can still run a business. i know what profit and loss is about and cash flow forecast is about. but even on the phone, you feel it when dealing with bad customer service and a lot of people i've spoken to,

we switch it up. if you keep telling them, stop talking like that, they will hang up and i've said, i speak to your manager please? it is not just me, it could be a form of impostor syndrome, it could be a lot. i also wrote a quote, my surname is williams because of slavery, and a lot of people in my work contact list have said, not just white, but they didn't understand that my surname is williams because of slavery. from birth my identity has almost not being there because really i've not been able to identify with down to my surname, where i really come from. that idea of impostor syndrome may be a feeling that i have to be a certain type of way to be accepted. it doesn't mean people cannot be well spoken like nigel and cas. it doesn't mean people cannot be well spoken like nigel and (as. hi. do introduce yourself. well spoken like nigel and (as. hi. do introduce yourselflj well spoken like nigel and (as. hi. do introduce yourself. i run a platform as well as a social

enterprise cold the capital moments and when robert was talking about experiences of going to networking meetings i really related. my platform is a finance platform and a 7796 platform is a finance platform and a 77% of our customers are from ethnic minority communities so we see people of asian descent doing well in business and people of afro—caribbean like this and doing well in business but the reason they come to us is because 44% of those people are highly discouraged to go to their banks which has created this massive market. in seeing the entrepreneurs and the great work they are doing is what is going to networking meetings myself, it's like, you step into certain places and you are not welcomed, to some extent. i remember when and you are not welcomed, to some extent. i rememberwhen i and you are not welcomed, to some extent. i remember when i was first building the company and went to see the chairman of one of the biggest investment banks in europe, and when i told a receptionist i was going to see x she looked up and looked at me and asked me to repeat it and i said i was going to see x and she let me through, of course, and i went to his office and had a discussion and

he was of caucasian descent and he was fine with it but it was strange that it was a shock to her that i was going to see her boss, or her chairman. let me read some messages from people watching around the country. this text says: my husband bought glasses to wear for interviews even though he doesn't need them. laughter to try and make himself look more approachable. this viewer says i'm a black male medical student and i'm often asked how it could be i got to my position. this is never asked of my white colleagues and is an assumption made that i had a difficult upbringing, and somehow i ama difficult upbringing, and somehow i am a walking miracle by the fact that i'm in my position. black people are still suffering the fallout from the propaganda put out by the slave traders, which has seeped down to the present day which degraded and demonised the black person and until this is admitted to and debunked by the whole country this will continue. john tweets this: as an irishman living in brixton between 1985—1996!

saw racism, especially from the police and was locked up five times just for being irish. it was worse for black people. a young man was stabbed, he died in my arms, i heard two cops saying that's one less black... we have to deal with. wow! jimmy says are used to get stopped and searched all the time when i was young and used to get arrested for nothing. i had a gun pointed at me when i was 15 and i'm white. ok, so, what message do you want this campaign to send out? cephas has told us his ambitions but what about some more of you? so, samuelfounder ofa some more of you? so, samuelfounder of a platform cold desc. basically, for me, it is very important we communicate that it is possible for us communicate that it is possible for us to be black men and successful. it is obviously a misconception that many people have that as a young

black man you can't be successful, you can't run a business, you can't achieve much because of your circumstances oi’ achieve much because of your circumstances or your background. however, i think it's important for the next generation that we show that as young black males we were doing something positive and we were successful at it. i will come back to you. it is also very sobering as we have grown up and some of us have children and nieces and nephews and so on children and nieces and nephews and so on and we get to see first—hand what they from our lives. and so i believe this campaign is fantastic because it gets to show them that not only can we be successful and all this kind of stuff, but also to say to them, don't be afraid to be your greater self, to the young black boys out there in the world, do not be afraid to be your greater self, people will be intimidated and scared and that is none of your business and are not your fault. live your best life and be a young king. terry says wearing hoodies day and nightand king. terry says wearing hoodies day and night and walking towards you it can be intimidating. my grandson where is his and it's frightening

and he's the nicest boy. image is the problem. can i answer that? i'm mike andl the problem. can i answer that? i'm mike and i run a diversity inclusion consultancy. just on that, when marks a the good —— mark zuckerberg wears a hoodie it is not seen as threatening and when bill gates wears a hoodie it is not threatening, why is itjust when it isa threatening, why is itjust when it is a black man? why do you think it is? it comes down to representation, summary mention the propaganda around slavery and it's exactly the same fiow, we are around slavery and it's exactly the same now, we are demonised in the media. whena same now, we are demonised in the media. when a black person of high standing does something wrong they kick them. raheem sterling mentioned the other day, the portrayal of black men in the media is completely disproportionate to what we actually do. it works both ways. disproportionate to what we actually do. it works both wayslj disproportionate to what we actually do. it works both ways. i run a podcast cold fathers in the hood to exploring people's stories around fatherhood and i started that

podcast because i lost my father when i was three years old, he was murdered because of racism, and he had a very high—profile job and the people that were working under him didn't want to be working and reporting to a black man, they conspired to murder him and me and my brother grew up without a father and that's part of the reason i started the podcast. the other reason is a lot of the things i see in our communities is the lack of positive role models, the lack of those father figures, not necessarily a biological father but father figures so i wanted to have a platform where people can easily access models of 56 positive black men. that's the other story, as black men we father these children and we are irresponsible and we don't take care of our children and we are not involved and these kids grow up without morals or without ambitions and cause all sorts of mayhem in society. we will get more positive stories but i also want to ask you why you think you have been

judged in the way that you have described this morning? judged in the way that you have described this morning ?|j judged in the way that you have described this morning? ijust want to add, it is notjust about described this morning? ijust want to add, it is not just about the hoodie. i'm talking about rob's story about going into a meeting in a suit. what is going on? is it overt racism? a suit. what is going on? is it overt racism ? is a suit. what is going on? is it overt racism? is it conscious racism? it is more due to the fact people are so used to the negative connotation of black people in the media, and that stems to people subconsciously thinking, well, that person is automatically doing something bad. so it is association? i think that is probably the reason why. to introduce myself, i run a clothing brand cold mia london but also an ex corporate lawyer so i've had experience both doing things myself and trying to navigate the world as a black man as an entrepreneur but also working on corporate and trying to deal with these micro—aggressions and all these micro—aggressions and all these kinds of things. what is a micro aggression? micro-aggressions

are essentially a way of people's unconscious biases manifesting themselves in what they say in how they act. what is an example? maybe a black female colleague, saying they look exotic because their hair is different, something like that. for me, i guess i've been trying to make a point that you don't necessarily... and for me the image pa rt necessarily... and for me the image part is really important because i had my hairlike part is really important because i had my hair like this whilst i was in corporate and it was seen as, i guess, making a stance, if that makes sense when i didn't feel like it should have. because you were just growing your hair?|j it should have. because you were just growing your hair? i wasjust growing my hairand just growing your hair? i wasjust growing my hair and i noticed a definite difference between the way that i was perceived, the amount of client facing work i had when my hairwas client facing work i had when my hair was shorter and when my hair was longer. it isjust these little things that kind of perpetuate the stereotype when they shouldn't really actually do that. could i add to that. and then i'm going to go to mike. i think to also add to that point as well, it is almost like you

can't be yourself as well, do you know what i mean? you can't actually be your true self because you are afraid of how you will be perceived, or fit into the stereotype people already have of you. i would find myself attending talks, or going to particular places, and i would feel i couldn't necessarily express myself the way i would want to because they might see me as aggressive, for instance, or they might see me as someone that is that stereotype that they perceive me to be, whereas that may not necessarily be, whereas that may not necessarily be the case. a lot of the problem is that equal opportunities, as an entrepreneur i'm not necessarily taken as seriously as i should be, and i'm obviously having to fight the stereotype people have just to get a level playing field and it can be quite frustrating at times. we have all mentioned representation and that is super important because you can't become something you can't see so you can't become something you can't see so it's important for black young boys and girls to see people

they can aspire to. the media is super important. my name is mike and iruna super important. my name is mike and i run a news network and what we trying to do is help people out of echo chambers, if you like. i realised... i grew up in london and we nt realised... i grew up in london and went up to manchester which was cold and not like london, but whilst i was there i learned that there are a lot of people who hadn't met black people, believe it or not. you had people, believe it or not. you had people essentially perpetuating this kind of tribalism where all of their friends are white, they are always in one place and black people have their own enclave. there is nothing wrong with that because people like people like themselves. there is a lot wrong with that because you start to demonise, caricature and make up stories. what we need is people talking to each other rather than about each other. to get that you have to create spaces where people can come and learn new things. i didn't grow up with a lot of white friends and i may have unconscious biases but the minute i meet some and realise they aren't quite what i imagined i start knocking down these negative images i built knocking down these negative images ibuilt up knocking down these negative images i built up in my head. my name is

samuel and i built up in my head. my name is samueland i'm a i built up in my head. my name is samuel and i'm a motivational speaker. the most important thing about the concept is for me being able to understand there are two sides to every story. the thing is, if the media constantly portrays one side of a story, all you will understand within your different societies is that this is the only image we have as young black men. the most important thing is understanding there are actually other people out there who are out there achieving goals, who are out there achieving goals, who are out there chasing their dreams and trying to make a difference and it isjust standing trying to make a difference and it is just standing up trying to make a difference and it isjust standing up and, i guess, taking a stand for all the people who are or who have been victims of all these different things we have talked about. we talked about the reasons, which include media portrayal, unconscious bias, overt racism, anything else? anything that we can put ourfinger on? racism, anything else? anything that we can put our finger on? one thing i want to add is for me personally one of the biggest issues is children growing up believing the hype. they are told if you are young

and black... to be fair, we can live with white people being racist towards us but the biggest problem is that we start sabotaging ourselves, our kids start growing up not believing in themselves, our kids start growing up aspiring but all i can do because i've been told through the media, through music and films and tv and everything else that actually my best route in life is to be a thug, or to do something illegal, which is going to end them up illegal, which is going to end them up injail or dead. illegal, which is going to end them up in jail or dead. just quickly on that point, that resonated with me because as a teacher that is something i see, particularly with black children. because of the representation, the negative representation, the negative representation of black men, what happens is black children actually feel that being a thug, or being violent, these feel that being a thug, or being viole nt, these negative feel that being a thug, or being violent, these negative portrayals that they see, they tie that up with their identity. if a black child is intelligent and is capable, they feel like they have to hide that because that is a white thing, that is an asian thing. just to finish, i

feel like we can't have an equal society until we have proper and fair representations. this text says, i'm a black hedge fund manager and it has been an uphill struggle over the 20 years to prove myself and overcome misconceptions, being overlooked and passively insulted. through hard work and focus i have been successful but the struggle is real and the work to educate society must continue. this e—mail says: the media needs to show more examples of black men whose lives do not reflect the common stereotype. my husband because my grandfather, his father, my husband, my father and our son have all been responsible and successful black men who were or are not absentee men. why don't the media publish the stories of these families? there are many such generations if theyjust bother to try to find out. i'm a black man, suffered racism from black men, just as i have from any other racial group. what they won't tell you is they can be just as guilty of into a black race racism as other races can be guilty of racism towards us. agree or

disagree? to an extent. i think it's quite complex. inter race hostility is normal. you see it between different variations of mancunian against londoners, for example. the only issue is we don't have a power structure on which base that. if you're arguing amongst each other and there is no real access to true arguments happening. i look at the house of commons and they are arguing over political stances. but they are all quite comfortable, they are all pretty well off and well looked after. whereas, there is nothing to be gained in argument with each other and that's why we have come together as 56. could i add to that point? i think what that person is trying to get it potentially is the stereotype bleeds

into our community. i've seen bus drivers that are black, see me at the stop and drive off. how does that make you feel? bad and a good numberof that make you feel? bad and a good number of black people have said don't say it because we don't want to... but at the same time, if we are drowning and we can't say that i am drowning we don't know the solution to be saved, which is now a swim. so if there is an issue, on whatever side of the fence, and what's interesting about what i've done and what i'm trying to do is ta ke done and what i'm trying to do is take an internal conversation, have it internally but also on a public platform. i want to end with positive stories. i'm aware some of you have not spoken and may want to ta ke you have not spoken and may want to take this opportunity to do it right now if you haven't. hi, charles. give mea now if you haven't. hi, charles. give me a positive story, tell the nation something positive about what you do. what i want to say is by us being

here, ican what i want to say is by us being here, i can show a new normality, be a positive role model. my example, i finished university, i thought why don't i get a job but then i realised when i actually started my own business and it led towards one thing leading to another to now making a bag which when i started, i used cereal boxes to make it out of cardboard and that led towards finding a manufacturer and then i went to the princes trust. many things lead towards these things and thought, what i want to take away from it and show everyone is like look, i had nothing. i literally used cereal boxes to make a bag. that led towards making leather bags. your bag now is extremely good quality, people can check it out. you are in a good place.|j quality, people can check it out. you are in a good place. i work in the cybersecurity world. i am looking to launch a platform on the back end of my story, at the age of

205i back end of my story, at the age of 205i was diagnosed with cancer and i had half of myjaw removed and i've gone through a five year period of hardship. and i couldn't speak, i had serious problems with my leg. one thingl had serious problems with my leg. one thing i will say, there is two ways i could have gone, i could have said, forget this world i am going to go down the dark path but i said no, even though people look at me, i get looks every and i find it quite funny how we can sometimes take offe nce funny how we can sometimes take offence at this because i get it every day, i am a tall, black guy, six i have a massive scar on my face, i six i have a massive scar on my face, lam black. six i have a massive scar on my face, i am black. what do you think people are thinking of when they look at you? they probably think i am ina look at you? they probably think i am in a gang or i had been stabbed in the face but it is about me turning the perception and that is what i have done at work, i walked into interviews, when i know, i know

what i am talking about, i skilled myself up. i go with confidence and i portray myself the right way and people turn around and say, wait a minute, there is something in the sky and that is why i want to launch my project, rise over, and it's to teach people, it doesn't matter what you go through but if you have the right mindset you can write and rise over what issues you have. how is your health? cancer free for five yea rs. your health? cancer free for five years. my god! thank you so much, everybody. i am so sorry, that said, you can come back again. you will have to see us again, victory. that is quite all right and i really appreciated. we will talk again. we really appreciated. thank thank you. "we can't go on like this. theresa may needs to act immediately to ensure that we are not swept over a precipice." that's the message from three

ministers who have now gone public with their threat to quit theirjobs unless the prime minister assures them she will not take the country out of the eu without a deal. as many as a dozen more are said to be ready to follow suit. she's meeting the cabinet right now, to try and stave off any resignations, and will make a statement in the commons this afternoon. meanwhile, jeremy corbyn has been criticised by a handful of his own mps for ignoring millions of labour leave voters by deciding he will back a second referendum if labout can't get its own brexit plan through parliament. i've been speaking to his brexit spokesman keir starmer. i think we need to heal the divisions will a second referendum beat the way to do it?|j fear we won't do that, the deal according to the prime minister is read lines or no deal, we do need to find a way forward. can i ask you,

will a second referendum in your opinion, heal the divisions in this country? i think it has a better chance than any other option and for this reason. i think, you will have picked this up. many people want to move on, they want closure but the only way we can get that is on a brexit deal that has the confidence of parliament and that people think is about right or to remain. i don't think we are going to get that closure by forcing through a deal which everybody can see parliament does not really one. ok. let me just ...the does not really one. ok. let me just the idea that disclosure i think is misconceived. one of your own mps has called this move to a second referendum on your part an absurd decision and you are reneging on your election manifesto promise to hundred the results of the referendum. another says you are ignoring millions of labour leave voters, what do you say? let me deal

with the manifesto. notwithstanding we campaigned to remain we accepted the result and we triggered article 50 and opened up the two—year window for the prime minister to negotiate. during that two years we repeatedly said her red lines were wrong and that we should not have no deal. at the end of the exercise that is precisely what she is going to present to us, her deal, according to her red lines, unchanged, or no deal. in that same manifesto we made it clear we would not support a deal along her red lines, nor could we possibly countenance no deal. our own manifesto says if we get to this stage we simply cannot support the options that the prime minister is putting forward. ok, ok, and let me this comes at the end of the two—year exercise. the window of article 50 is closing and we have got real limited options than we should have. and that is why we want

to put the brexit deal up to a vote on wednesday. the proposal for living. sorry to interrupt. what do you think labour supporters in parts of the country that voted to leave full think of you and jeremy corbyn now? i think everybody who voted leave wa nts now? i think everybody who voted leave wants to leave in a way which has the confidence of parliament and the confidence of the country. nobody really wants the disruption that could follow from a bad deal or no deal. whatever people say now about no deal, if in months and yea rs about no deal, if in months and years to come, there's been an impact onjobs, years to come, there's been an impact on jobs, businesses years to come, there's been an impact onjobs, businesses have moved abroad, communities have been deprived of those businesses, they will come back to people like me and say, why on earth, why on earth, didn't you do anything to prevent that no deal outcome? and they would have a point, we have a responsibility that goes beyond political parties to be dell might

prevent us crashing out without a deal. we will get the prime minister is impact assessment later today on the impact of living without a deal. iam sure the impact of living without a deal. i am sure they will show how bad it would be for the country and you would be for the country and you would challenge me in a year plus my time, if there is a downturn in the economy to save why on earth didn't you and others take steps when you could. that is what we are doing. what would be the options on the ballot paper? mrs may ‘s deal as long as it has got through parliament and remain? the two options? the precise wording would have to be determined by parliament, there will be a lot of discussion about that. the basic option would have to be between a credible leave option, and remain. and what that means is that if the prime minister gets her deal through, that should be subject to a public vote. yes, i would vote remain because i believe that remain is the best way forward.

but also because i do not accept, and have never accepted, the prime minister's brexit deal on her red lines. i have been fighting it for two years, as has the labour party. richard harrington is a business minister in theresa may's government, is one of three ministers who has threatened to resign and has warned in the daily mail today that country is in danger of being swept over the precipice at the end of march. u nless unless the prime minister rule site no deal. how bewildered are you that she hasn't done that so far? victoria, i am absolutely amazed, the prospect of no deal is such a disaster hanging over a business like we had never known before in history, probably since the second world war and i have said for some time we should rule out no deal. the idea that it is a negotiating tool is incorrect in my view. nobody believes it in the european union and as for as we are concerned the responsible thing to do is rule out

no deal, i hope everyone supports the prime minister ‘s deal as i do because it is a compromise and a way through forjobs. if she does not do that explicitly come do you do? tomorrow, i am that explicitly come do you do? tomorrow, iam hoping that explicitly come do you do? tomorrow, i am hoping today at the dispatch box, the prime minister will say she effectively rules out no deal and provides a parliamentary timetable for alternatives to be discussed for example the temporary extension of article 50. if she is not prepared to do that tomorrow we will vote on a number of amendments, one of which will be, it's called cooper both opted now, i do not know whose name it will be in, probably caroline spelman, taking control of the decision to parliament and provide the legislative time, the mechanism, to delay brexit by a short period for parliament to decide. let me ask you. would you resign if you did that or would you mrs may to psyche?” resign if you did that or would you mrs may to psyche? i think the honourable thing to do would be resign because i would be voting,

assuming it was a flip vote, it may not be, but it is reasonable to say if you vote against a proper vote in government but i hope that's not necessary because i support the main government policy which is the prime minister ‘s deal which is an excellent way to deal with brexit because it provides a compromise for jobs in the economy yet the will of the people in the vote for leaving the people in the vote for leaving the european union to be satisfied as well. if you do not get what you want, some kind of assurance today, would a burble reassuring to be enough from mrs may? it depends on the wording. quite apart from the battery is an honourable person i believe anyway, if she told me, at the dispatch box it's generally regarded undertakings at the dispatch box art effectively, not exactly legal, but effectively that. people watching remember she said we will not have a snap election and win then we had a snap election so you can do is believe what your boss says. that's true, i would not say she is my boss, but politicians have

that reputation and in this particular case, given it would be a change of policy, it would have been approved by cabinet this morning, it's not just approved by cabinet this morning, it's notjust a political slogan. warm words alone will not be enough. it has to be a clear undertaking that she is prepared to remove no deal, to have a short extension to article 50, not as a permanent thing, but as a way to allow parliament to decide the way it wa nts to parliament to decide the way it wants to go in the future. how shocked are you that with one month to go until brexit, this country has no idea whether we are going for a soft brexit, a hard brexit, no deal, ora soft brexit, a hard brexit, no deal, or a delay to brexit? it is totally unacceptable, victoria. this is your government. absolutely. it is an absolute can see, isn't it? and i ta ke full absolute can see, isn't it? and i take full responsibility for it, it says business and industry minister on my business card and i take that seriously, believe me. while we have done every preparation be possibly

imagined to try and prepare for no deal it is impossible and it is wrong that companies today are making products and we clearly have seenin making products and we clearly have seen in my own constituency of watford, they are being loaded onto ships now, not knowing when they arrive in south korea, for example. several rigs for now, whether they will land, whether there will be a turn—off, but the rules will be, it's absolutely absurd. enough now. she has to rule out no deal, we have to have a proper transition periods of the proper rules for future business between ourselves and the eu can be sorted out. do you have any respect left for theresa may?” have a lot of respect for her. as she got much authority left? u nfortu nately she got much authority left? unfortunately she is pulled in different directions. we have the arg, people who believe in a different way for the future of the united kingdom to myself and many in the conservative party, many of whom who would be quite happy to leave with no deal despite the chaos i believe it would cause. on the other

hand she has a group of us who are very loyal to her who have remained very loyal to her who have remained very quiet up until now, doing things behind—the—scenes in the fight i things behind—the—scenes in the fight i am here today is because we felt we had to go public. it is extraordinary you are on national television saying these things about your boss and about your government, saying it's amazing you are at that position with ears to go, it's unacceptable that no deal has not been taken off the table. but we support her deal, what we object to is the false tactic in my view of keeping no deal on the table because of the devastation it is causing. she has lost the dressing room, hasn't she? i have never been any dressing room so i would not know. has to decide in life, people like herself do everything they can to compromise, to reach an agreement between people if she possibly can. but as i said to her myself, some things in life you cannot reconcile two positions. that is what courts

are poor, divorce courts, regular courts, everyone has tried to sort everything out but in the end a judge has to decide and she is the judge, she has to decide between two different views. my view as a supporter of her deal, is that she has to rule out no deal because of the devastation it is causing. thank you very much for talking to us. thank you for having me on. today, 28 campaigners including actors and mp5, will march on westminster with their suitcases to represent the number of women making the trip across the irish sea every week to have an abortion. if you live in northern ireland, it's almost impossible to terminate your pregnancy, even if you know your baby has an abnormality which means it won't live beyond birth. one of the women marching today is denise. her baby had a fatal fetal abnormality and eventually died inside her, because she was too ill to make the trip to england to have an abortion. last october she told her story

exclusively to our programme. you may find it upsetting. denise was halfway through her pregnancy when she and her husband richard found out their baby had a genetic disorder called edwards syndrome which meant she wouldn't survive. not only would she be disabled in every organ and every sense in her body, but every cell would be wrong. if she did survive for a couple of hours or a couple of days, her suffering would be immense. at that stage, we had decided the best thing to do, the kindest thing, would be to have a termination. to do this, denise would have to travel to england, but she became seriously ill and bedridden, unable to make the journey. i can't explain the extent to which it affected me mentally. i was literally tortured. you obviously then had to continue with your pregnancy, not knowing when you were going

to lose your baby. that threw us both into a complete, traumatic downward spiral. people would be constantly congratulating me because i was so big, and asking me when my baby was due. everyone wanted to share in the good news, but we knew we weren't preparing for birth, we were preparing to death. for denise, the full horror was still to come. we were told that it was likely she would die before birth. and at 35 weeks and three days, she did die. if i'd been allowed to have a termination early on, we could then have tried for more children, but we are not in a position mentally to deal with that, because we feel like we have nothing left to give. it just threw my whole world in turmoil, and i have really suffered mental torture.

and i've just not been able to get back on track again. and we spend every day grieving for her, it is always in our minds. to a certain extent, i accepted that our baby was going to die. but i could never ever accept that it's ok to force a woman to carry a dying foetus until it is born as a dead baby. this shouldn't be happening to anybody. it really affects me deeply to know that other women have gone through that and will still go through that, and nothing is still being done. jean mackenzie was talking to denise. let's talk another of the women marching in westminster today — from the tv series derry girls — siobhan mcsweeney, who plays sister michael... good morning. what do you think about what denise went through and she wasn't able to have a

termination? how terrible that story is. as upsetting as the trauma and torture that she has gone through is the fact that she is not a lone case. we are working today to represent the 28 women that have to travel to access these legal and safe health ca re travel to access these legal and safe health care services that are available all over the uk and not in northern ireland. the torture is happening daily for these women. the westminster government says this is a matter for the northern westminster government says this is a matterfor the northern ireland executive which we know hasn't sat for two years. two years and one month. i mean, yes, it is surely a matter of devolution but there is no government in northern ireland at the moment. the entire province is being run by civil servants with diminishing resources and with no political mandate whatsoever. it's time for theresa may and the secretary of state for northern ireland karen bradley to step up and

intervene. do you think the current laws are a breach of women's human rights? look, i am a candidate none from the telly, doesn't really matter what i think but international courts of human rights have said this is in breach. cou ntless have said this is in breach. countless legislators and countless mines by better than have repeatedly said this is torture. you are right, in february a un committee found the abortion laws in northern ireland breached human rights putting women in horrific situations, and make the supreme courtjudges said existing law in northern ireland was incompatible with human rights which may be a way of persuading westminster government it is right to intervene because it is a human rights issue. it's a human rights and health care issue, basic human rights. we have a petition today thatis rights. we have a petition today that is nearly 70,000 people who have signed this petition saying they want the law to be changed. also, we have all the data, the people of northern ireland

themselves want this to be changed, this victorian law that predates the light bulb needs to be changed. 1861, offences against the person act. there are a lot of people in northern ireland who do not want abortion to be made legal and do not wa nt westminster to ta ke abortion to be made legal and do not want westminster to take the decision on their behalf, what do you say to them? i say that is their choice and i am asking for choice. if it is a free and legal health service that they can access and other women can access and the rest of the uk then i ask that same choice to be given to the women and people who can get pregnant in northern ireland. they do not have to use the service if they do not wa nt to use the service if they do not want to, it is not for them to decide whether and what other people should do. thank you so much for coming on. thank you. thank you for your messages, tweets, e—mails about our conversation at the start of the

programme with some of the 56 blackmail project. max is fantastic and thank you for this, with the articulate, intelligent, charming and caring young men showing how amazing they are and old barriers need to be a thing of the past. brilliant, positive peace. stephen says we need more of this, i am recording my programme from your family —— mega for my family. another viewer living in london and originally from toxteth says he has worked in the public sector for 35 yea rs worked in the public sector for 35 years and can relate everything these men say, great respect to them for bringing this matter to the poon for bringing this matter to the poor. thank you so much for those, many more messages that have come in saying how inspirational the guests were. people with asthma are rationing their medication due to prescription costs, ending up with many having potentially fatal asthma attacks, and rising numbers of hospital admissions. according to a new report by asthma uk, more than 75% of people with asthma in england say that they struggle to afford to pay

for medication and inhalers that help them to breathe. an estimated 1.3 million people who pay for their medication have skipped taking it because of the cost. and, of those, a quarter, around 300,000, said that it led to an asthma attack. now, campaigners are trying to end what they see as unfair asthma prescription charges, calling on the government to take action to help people with asthma to stay well and out of hospital. let's talk now to cathy worboys. cathy believes that her 19—year—old daughter holly, who died injanuary 2016 from an asthma attack, would still be alive today if prescription charges hadn t discouraged her taking her asthma medication regularly. also here is dr samantha walker, director of research and policy at asthma uk. thank you so much for talking to us and thank you for your patience. cathy, tell us about holly and her struggles with asthma and how severe it was. holly says that we

considered wasn't that severe. she would get a little bit greasy, shortness breath, she would take a preventative medication to stop that and she would be fine. it wasn't until one night she had a really big asthma attack and that was it, we we re asthma attack and that was it, we were not prepared for it at all. never having seen a big asthma attack. it just never having seen a big asthma attack. itjust came totally out of the blue. what happened when she had the blue. what happened when she had the attack? she came to my bedroom door knocked, said i cannot breathe, with that i got out of bed, she was standing on top of the stairs struggling to breathe, i said take your pump, i only have one left and isaid take your pump, i only have one left and i said take it, she said i am saving it. one puff left of the inhaler. she was saving her medication because she hadn't bought more because she hadn't bought more because of the cost. went down to the garden to get more air and with that she was struggling. she passed out before it was time to take the

last path. my goodness. that was it. totally out of the blue. goodness me. samantha, prescription for asthma, should be free. absolutely. as you said, about half the people we surveyed said they are skipping taking their medication and the thing about asthma medicine it is it is life—saving. you have to take it to prevent an emergency, you have to ta ke to prevent an emergency, you have to take them to be able to save your life, we think it's completely unfair people with asthma should have to pay for these. why do you think people with asthma are not currently entitled in parts of the country to free prescriptions? they are not in the list, in scotland, wales and northern ireland, they are free, the last time the medicines exemption list was looked at was a decade ago. and when that list was put together i think asthma did not have the range of treatments it has available now. look at the amount of inhalers and poppers and drugs that people with asthma had to take it

did not exist. it's an anomaly that long ago people did not take it seriously enough and did not have the same prominence but these days, we thank, that is why asthma uk is calling on the government to change the route to say they should get them for free. what would your medic message to the department of health be? a lot of people think twice about getting medication. bills to pgy- about getting medication. bills to pay. it comes second. putting food on the table, if asthma pumps or medication was free, people would not think twice, they would get the back—up, they would had medication there constantly, it would not be an issue. probably would have saved holly. because she would have had more there. let me get this e-mail, someone listening to the conversation about whether asthma medication and inhalers should be free. here it is, i'm sorry. i have

three children with asthma, my eldest has to pay and he tries not to ta ke eldest has to pay and he tries not to take it as much because of prescription charges. people are being put at risk so the charges should be dropped. thank you both so much. thank you. thanks for your company today and for your messages. we are back tomorrow at10am. bbc newsroom live is coming up next. have a good day. good morning. conditions today very similarto good morning. conditions today very similar to those of yesterday, plenty of blue sky and sunshine out there. that is the scene in the isle of wight, look at the blue sky, the sea looks quite inviting. going to feel warm again across many parts of the uk, temperatures this morning on

the uk, temperatures this morning on the low side but this afternoon reaching similar values to yesterday. around 1a—18d, around london, the west of wales, we could see temperatures 20, possibly 21 degrees. a bit more cloud in the far north—west of scotland, that will clear away to the north as we go through tonight, patchy fog developing across southern areas into the early hours of tomorrow, temperatures will get down to 2—5d. another reminder it is still winter, still quite chilly on wednesday, more sunshine to come, temperatures a degree or so lower than they will be today and yesterday still above the average between 14—18d. goodbye.

you're watching bbc newsroom live — it's 11am and these are the main stories this morning: theresa may's cabinet is meeting at downing street this morning — as the prime minister faces further calls to prevent a no deal brexit. jeremy corbyn says labour will support another referendum if its alternative brexit plan was rejected by the commons. one of the pope's advisers, cardinal george pell has become the most senior catholic figure to be convicted of sexual offences. india says it's conducted air raids inside pakistani territory in a major escalation of tension between the two nuclear—armed neighbours. sleep lessons in the classroom. of cutting back on screen time and getting a good night's sleep.