hello it's10am, i'm victoria derbyshire. good morning. 27,000 children are involved in gangs in england — but only a tiny fraction of those children are known to the authorities, according to a new report from england's children's commissioner. we've brought together people with direct experience to talk about this — and wherever you are in the uk, what is the right way to protect young people from getting iviolved in crime and violence? our exclusive story today — 32—year—old mum of two kerri mcauley died after her partner beat her up, breaking every bone in herface.

kerri had earlier confided in her hairdresser. she turned round and she said to me, "i know he's going to kill me." they were the words i never thought i would ever hear any of my clients say. should i have phoned the police? yeah, of course i should have done. kerri's case has led to a new scheme where hairdressers and beauticians are being trained to spot the signs of domestic abuse. we'll bring the details at 10:30am. we'll bring the details at 10:30am. and a two—day summit between president trump and kimjong—un has broken up early with no agreement reached on north korea giving up its nuclear weapons. it was a very interesting two days and i think, actually, it was a very productive two days, but sometimes, you have to walk. hello, welcome to the programme. we're live until ”am this morning. today, we'll ask labour mp david lammy, about these photos of stacey dooley, which she posted on instagram of her working for comic relief in uganda. mr lammy says "the world does not

need any more white saviours". what's your view? david lambie says the world does not need any more white saviours. what is your view? aerial on twitter: i don't see a white saviour. i see a caring @staceydooley. as so often is the case, @davidlammy sees skin colour before anything else. inthezone on twitter: victoria, please question his use of skin colour. lenny henry has done the same thing as stacey." please do let us know your views with what you think. here's annita mcveigh with a summary of the day's news. the summit between the us and north korea has ended early without an agreement being reached. president trump said north korea's insistence on the full removal of sanctions was the reason for the breakdown. the pair had been expected to announce progress on denuclearisation.

they wanted the sanctions lifted in their entirety, and we couldn't do that. they were willing to denuke a large portion of the areas that we wanted but we couldn't give up all of the sanctions for that. we continue to work and we will see. the children's commissioner for england is warning that mistakes that led to a number of child sexual grooming scandals are being repeated with gangs. a new report by anne longfield estimates there are 27,000 criminal gang members under 18 in england. that's far higher than the 6500 known to children's services and youth offending teams. ms longfield says local authorities are not facing up to the scale of the problem and are repeating past mistakes. victoria will be speaking to former gang members, youth workers and police in a few moments.

jeremy corbyn has said his party will back another referendum on britain's membership of the eu. the labour leader said he will also continue to push for other available options including a general election. the pledge was made after a series of votes in the commons, where labour's alternative proposals for brexit were rejected by mps. the number of people coming to the uk from outside the eu is at its highest level for 15 years. that's according to new figures just released. 0verall net migration — the number of people arriving to live in britain minus those moving away — in the 12 months to the end of september 2018 was 283,000. the government's target is less than 100,000. migration from eu countries has fallen to its lowest level since 2009. hairdressers and beauty therapists are to be trained to spot the signs of domestic abuse. in a pilot scheme norfolk council will offer the training. it follows the murder of a local woman who spoke to her hairdresser before she died about her fears for her life.

single use plastic bottles will be banned from glastonbury this year. the organisers are encouraging festival goers to use re—fillable bottles and will provde drinking fountains on site. plastic bottles will also not be supplied to any artists or backstage staff. that's a summary of the main news today so far. back to victoria. thank you. 10:05am. there are around 27,000 children in gangs in england, according to a new report by the children 5 commissioner. and, shockingly, 311,000 children who are gang members or who know gang members, have been the victims of violent crime in the last year. but only a tiny proportion, 6560, of those vulnerable children have been identified by the authorities as being in danger. the children's commissioner for england, anne longfield, says thousands of children are at risk and that

all the mistakes that led to serious safeguarding failings in relation to child sexual exploitation in towns and cities up and down the country are now being repeated. she 5 meeting police and crime commissioners, senior police officers and chairs of local safeguarding boards today to ask how they plan to keep children involved in gangs safe. we are going to spend the next 25 minutes talking about this. we are going to talk to amani simpson, has a 21—year—old he was stabbed and as a 21—year—old he was stabbed and as a teenager he was dealing drugs. he has turned his life around. jackie mcallister, whose 15—year—old son was groomed into selling drugs over county lines. sayce homes—lewis, a youth worker who says police are leaving young people to self—regulate gang violence, rather than investigating. leroy logan, a former met superintendent who says

its a national crisis. gavin mckenna who got involved in gangs as a child. amani, cani amani, can i start with you? you went to an all boys grammar school, loving home, supportive family. when you are excluded from school, things started going wrong. what happened? it wasn't when i was excluded, it was before hand. the causes were bullying. i was trying to fit in with a guys who are making my life hell, and i was attracted to the enforced image we had a black voice at the time. we were involved in things that were not progressing us forward and we got very complacent and it led to me having habitual issues that i created for myself. like what? just being disruptive. not really anything that was detrimental to anyone else's health. little things, comments and class to make the guys at the back laugh, being a bit late to school, which escalated to little things like

stealing a burger, stealing a pound that you see on the floor, and before you know it you are getting involved in all these things. and it is just part of your habits. you are not seeing that it started very small and it had escalated. that is how i got expelled. and small and it had escalated. that is howl got expelled. and once small and it had escalated. that is how i got expelled. and once you small and it had escalated. that is howl got expelled. and once you are excluded... expelled. i was howl got expelled. and once you are excluded... expelled. iwas excluded many times but then i was expelled. yes, excluded for ever. they called it expelled in the old days! that is lending started to go wrong. yes, i went to a pupil referral unit in edmonton. i was around other young people who have probably come from situations that were much worse than mine. again it is an environment where you have just got to survive. you are not going to be seen as the wea k you are not going to be seen as the weak tackling and you will match oh up weak tackling and you will match oh up and get involved certain things. and it

added to the habits that i created. i got pushed back into another school quite quickly probably to get me out of that situation. when i went back into the other school, recurring habits were there. it was pa rt recurring habits were there. it was part of my lifestyle. you think you will have a new experience and before you know that you are in the headteacher‘s office was something you got in trouble for when you were 12. when you were 16, you are dealing heroin and crack cocaine. how does that happen? after i got expeued how does that happen? after i got expelled for a second time, we will bea group expelled for a second time, we will be a group of boys and we robbed a year seven kid. wejust robbed him. and i was so caught up in the peer pressure that i borrowed a bb gun, for safety, i guess, for this image i had built up. and i got arrested with it outside my house. my mum and dad said that we love you to the best of our ability and we are upset now and we can't do anything with you. get taken into care. in that

environment when i was really vulnerable and quite lonely, in dark times, someone gave me the opportunity to make money. i went to cou nty opportunity to make money. i went to county lines at 16 and i was away from my family and it felt like freedom. but it wasn't. it was a lot of fear. just explain what you mean when you say you went over county lines. what does that actually mean in explicit terms? county lines, it is when drug dealers will send younger kids to sell whatever the product is. ifeel like younger kids to sell whatever the product is. i feel like from a younger person's perspective it is a place where you feel you can be free. it is no rules. there is a limited authority. in that environment, that is where young people need to be contacted and helped to move away from that environment. which is where your report comes in now. what we have just aired it so typical of so many stories that we hear. we think gang members are the ones that are very aggressive and they are the ones that we see in the photos, but stories like yours, you are vulnerable and you are in a dark place, and you want someone, to feel

like you belong to something. the level of threats and violence that people told me about ijust chilling. it is used as a way to get kids to say that part of the gang. getting kids out, keeping them out, but getting them out has got to be the priority. that is why you say the priority. that is why you say the approach should be, as the authority now approach grooming victims. we saw what happened in rotherham and rochdale. they got it wrong then and we have learned so much now. absolutely. the starting point is that there are kids that need protecting. kids that are at risk of harm that need to be protected. the scale of the issue needs to be accepted, just as it needed to be before. but also the signs. at each of those points, you we nt signs. at each of those points, you went to pr you and you got involved in these things, and i thought somebody had stepped in and helped at that point, it might not have escalated. david lammy, do you agree with that approach? absolutely. we

tend to focus on the young people and gangs, young people with knives and gangs, young people with knives and guns. we focus less on the fact that many are often excluded from schools, as was the case in this story. many are in a pupil referral unit but they are hardened in the referral unit and they are on the streets. many are in the care system. these are vulnerable young people. and there are adults, grown men, sometimes in soups, exploiting them. because in the end, the knife crime and the gun crime is really about the sale of drugs. britain has about the sale of drugs. britain has a cocaine problem. it is the largest cocaine problem in europe. these young men hardly know where colombia is. they have it organised a shipment of drugs. it is through the country, across the country, usually catering to middle—class people across the country. we should be bearing down on those adults. why should the police can then? you think it is a national crisis. what

do you mean? —— where should the police come in? i have been monitoring knife crime for a long time. education is key. you have got to educate young people in schools and not exclude them. they are five times more likely to be involved in crime if they are excluded. there needs to be a very clear understanding of a young person's reality. i think we are starting to get it now around at their style experiences. the trauma, the toxic stress, the lack of resilience to the groomers. but the groomers have been increasing over 20 years and the safeguarding agencies have been run down. there is a total imbalance and that is where the crisis is. as the report has already shown, there isa the report has already shown, there is a lack of coordination and it is fragmented. call in cobra, then you get the asset and at a ministerial level it being coordinated because this is not just level it being coordinated because this is notjust a london thing. it

is across the country. gavin, when you are 12 or 13 you went down the route of crime and violence. you are 12 or 13 you went down the route of crime and violencelj you are 12 or 13 you went down the route of crime and violence. i think thatis route of crime and violence. i think that is my experience. adverse childhood experiences. i witnessed domestic violence. i lived in a refuge. i didn't go to primary school until i was six and a half. the trauma that i experienced in the first six years of my life, that set the fundamental basis of who you become as a teenager, and it was fragmented by domestic violence and fear of man. my dad was a brown man, so fear of man. my dad was a brown man, soi fear of man. my dad was a brown man, so i was fearful. when the perpetrators that we are speaking about, i had it in my psychology that i was scared of these guys. my dad perpetrated against me and my mum and the fear was present and i reflect that onto any other man around me. growing up in a single household with just women, i am around me. growing up in a single household withjust women, i am not saying being a single mum is an issue, but i was a mixed race with a white family. that had an impact on me as well because i lived in the east end of london in the 90s. when

you are 12, who came to you to sell this, try this, do this? my experience was different. i grew up in an environment when i was ten and i saw in an environment when i was ten and isawa in an environment when i was ten and i saw a stabbing outside my house. there was a fight and someone was stabbed in the head with a fork and there was blood and an ambulance and i saw that and it traumatised me. seeing that on my doorstep, that was my experience of living in london, that violence was always here. that was my fear. i was fearful. i wasn't a gangster, i wasn't a bad kid who wanted to stab people and i wasn't afraid of being stabbed. i was afraid of being stabbed. i was afraid of being stabbed. i was afraid of the violence i witnessed around me becoming my reality and thatis around me becoming my reality and that is where the gap was. people who didn't live in my environment and didn't witness the toxic stress that i had of being hypervigilant. people pulling knives at me at 13 at the cinema in east london and you can't go out because you are scared of being stabbed or robbed at knife—point. of being stabbed or robbed at knife— point. those of being stabbed or robbed at knife—point. those bits and pieces we nt knife—point. those bits and pieces went on in my life. that produced in

the toxic stress that made me want to carry a knife for protection, to bea to carry a knife for protection, to be a gangster. if you take gavin's example, the approach that you would like us to take, at what point with the authorities, children services, the authorities, children services, the local council, intervene in gavin's teenage years?|j the local council, intervene in gavin's teenage years? i would say from the start. you are already in a women's refuge and things were not going well already at that stage. if you think about teenage years, secondary school is a big stress for any kid. with all these things going on, it is an additional one. missing school is another one. these pointers when you know that things get worse. missing school for periods of time. turning up at a&e with knife wounds. those are the signs. but what should happen at that point? there has got to be already in place a group of people together locally all working on this. schools, hospitals, police. they have all decided they will not just be talking to each other a bit

more. they have a proactive plan. to do what? to take gavin into school? to ta ke do what? to take gavin into school? to take amani back to school when he doesn't turn up? to have productive relationships with adults who can coach and be the bridge to keep them in school. yes, youth provision is around, but relationships are key. and to continue conversations as well. young people are holding a lot of pain inside and it takes someone thatis of pain inside and it takes someone that is relatable to unlock that. mental health support, absolutely, stuff like that. it sounds like we are talking about almost personal social workers? i would say that would be a very good thing. it is important to focus on what does happen and these young people get a criminal record. what does happen is they spent time in youth offenders

institutions. remember that in the la st institutions. remember that in the last few months we found out that 5196 last few months we found out that 51% of young people in british youth offending prisons are from a black or asian ethnic minority. 51%. it has got that bad. young people are criminalised, they then can't get employment. and i am afraid the state picks up the tab in terms of unemployment benefit, often well into your 30s. so you have got to intervene early and get alongside these young people. and you have got to challenge the adults that exploit them. in terms of the state, this is what the home office tell us in their statement. we are committed to

protecting vulnerable children by cracking down on the ruthless gangs that seek to exploit them and by offering them the support and skills they need to lead lives free of violence. that is why we launched the serious violence strategy which puts greater focus on early intervention alongside a tough law enforcement response. we have imposed a new statutory duty on partners across education, social services and health, to work together to tackle violence as part ofa together to tackle violence as part of a public health approach. and we are providing 220 million to support young people at risk of becoming involved in violence and gangs. how using evidence of that on the ground asa using evidence of that on the ground as a youth worker? i am seeing evidence of everything that has been said, and it is a multifaceted approach. if you look at the spending per child since 2010, it has reduced per child on average by 45% . has reduced per child on average by 45%. when you are taking that much away and people are offering young people a way out of poverty through cou nty people a way out of poverty through county lines and selling drugs, that isa county lines and selling drugs, that is a very viable option for them because they need to make money. they are deprived. and this is what the problem is and it goes back to education. this is why i founded my activity to go into schools and inform and educate young people wear formal education doesn't build a holistic picture for young people and it comes down to education. jackie, tell us about your son and how he was reamed intojoining a gang. the same story as everyone

else has been saying. i felt education let me down with my son. he would go to the pupil referral unit and they would send him home and he couldn't always go home so he would start being in town. there is a child not in school, you know. we will speak to him. there is a certain area in our town that all the kids went to and that is where they started getting groomed from. and i didn't realise it at the time and thenl and i didn't realise it at the time and then i started to see the signs. what are the signs? he wasn't coming home at the times that i had said to him. when he was at home he would go out of the house. i heard a phone ringing and he would disappear out of the house. we had to go and do the deal. i would say to him, look at the time. he felt that he had to do it because he would face the consequences otherwise. would you have welcomed outside help and intervention in a way that anne

longfield is suggesting in her report today? i think it is much needed. what would you have wanted to happen? i did have a good social worker, to an adolescent worker. she was very good. but i needed more people around. not just for me was very good. but i needed more people around. notjust for me but for my scent as well. he needed to talk to people. we had an organisation can but they were from london and they couldn't bring themselves down to give their full commitment to our town. some people listening will be thinking this is very earnest and a bit woolly and a bit soft. a15, 16 and 17—year—olds are selling heroin and crack cocaine, then they are breaking the law and they should be punished. cocaine, then they are breaking the law and they should be punishedlj law and they should be punished.” think you have got to look at the root though. that is what i am trying to show. i am a drug dealer from london, but that is what we have done all these years. we have

to look at what we are faced with. do what you said, do what you said. we don't deal with what we see, but the root causes. i was kicked out of school and i was labelled a gang member and people didn't want to employ me. i know that feeling of what the word gang can do. and what the word does is it takes away the victim from the perpetrators. go on. it is an age—old issue. think of 0liver twist. think of fagan, the artful dodger and oliver twist. who do we blame in that story? we blame fagan and not the kids that he exploited. this is no different. there will always be in society vulnerable children who are excluded from school, in the care system, he very sadly have parents, and other

fleeing domestic violence. support these young people. don't leave them prey to men in suits selling drugs. let me say it is notjust the gang members at that level. it is the organised criminality, distributing drugs all over the country, exploiting these young people to ferry the drugs. we need to be hearing far more from the metropolitan police about what they are doing to deal with those men in suits. absolutely. and i think there isa suits. absolutely. and i think there is a strong enforcement requirement, even more so because is a strong enforcement requirement, even more so because of the scale of the issue. but there needs to be an acknowledgement at an earlier stage that the intervention and prevention is actually assist young people from getting groomed in the first place. though safeguarding agencies, those grassroots organisations, are able to supply interventions, but they are almost nonexistent because of austerity. police numbers are down. we lost the safer neighbourhood teams and the safer schools offices,

so we teams and the safer schools offices, so we don't have those connections. evenif so we don't have those connections. even if you throw in all the money and get these people back into place, we need to ensure that they are trauma informed advocates. they know the signs. they have a cultural understanding as well. and make sure that they are in sustainable numbers and they are proactive. a lot of the people are groomed outside schools. most stabbings are between 4 o'clock and six o'clock in the evening. most people are not being understanding that these things start from the school at an early stage. the holistic strategy has got to be on the public health approach, and it needs to be well versed to the local environment. phil says: i have worked with children at the local authority for a0 years. there has never been an then ever will be the coordinated resources suggested today even if the money was available. and this: our son was expeued available. and this: our son was expelled at the age of ten and he

was sent to a school for children with problems. he is 1a and he has been excluded again and he is with groups smoking marijuana. he has been left at home with us for three months now. he is not a bad kid but he needs help. i can see his life going downhill but nobody wants to help. does using the word gang help 01’ help. does using the word gang help or hinder? it definitely hinders. is that unanimous? what about you?m starts a conversation. i want to look at how it can be prevented. how does it hinder? when you look at the way that the media portrays black boys, especially talking about the issue you mentioned, it is horrendous. it is borderline bullying sometimes. we need to change the narrative around what young black boys are able to do. there is a lot of potential in our classrooms. please let me finish.”

am saying we are doing this on this programme. we have a national narrative that demonises young boys and we don't appreciate as much as we should contribution that the black community has given to britain. these young boys are growing up in school environments where they are not seeing anyone they can aspire to be like. we learn in history about things that have nothing to do with our culture and thatis nothing to do with our culture and that is having an adverse effect on how young boys are growing up because then they are looking at superficial things as what i want to do because it looks like success. there are so many powerful and inspirational black figures that we do not talk about on a regular basis. i believe that until the education system starts to shift and we have honest conversations about the black experience in britain, this is a problem we will talk about for many years. it comes down to identity. why does the word gang hinder? because it is a negative connotation. you think of crime. gang means black. the 2011 riots.

they sell gangs, violence, black, and it is the connection. it is claude, isn't it? we don't use gang about other groups of young people that come together. —— it is code. and it doesn't concentrate minds on the problems. way above the level of that street gang are usually people that street gang are usually people that are not black, actually. they are from eastern european countries. they are men who sit in an office, organising the shipments of these drugs. we hear nothing about that organised criminality. and in fact at the same time that this has happened, we have cut our border force. so more drugs are coming into the country. no debate, no discussion about that. that is the problem. on the ground level as well, i think the community cohesion

isn't what we would like it to be. we are not having conversations with people from different backgrounds and getting an understanding of their experience. we are automatically tarnishing a whole generation with one brush. you are this, you are criminals. we are products of you guys' decisions. the environment we grow up in is because when my parents came over from jamaica, and many other grandparents, they were faced with hate and that has trickled down into how we operate within society. and until we have a conversation like that, this issue, we can have all the funding you want, but there is an identity issue that young black boys especially are dealing with. i believe a lot of people are saying the same thing. i know you will pick up the same thing. i know you will pick up on this at the end. this image of a white saviour, it needs to change. everybody can contribute to society. iam going everybody can contribute to society. i am going to urge you to watch our programme from tuesday on iplayer because we had this conversation. the 56 black men. they are changing

this narrative in such a public way. we don't need permission to do it and we don't need a national platform. we will continue to make noise. this is about kids who need protection and they are at home and at risk and this is something that isa at risk and this is something that is a reality. there are people who are responsible who need to step up and do more and actually we need it to be the national priority that we saw with child sexual exploitation. it is not perfect with that but it has changed, transformational, and this needs to follow. just quickly, the training i am doing, i am asking people what gang means for them, all over the country. black males, poverty, london, inner cities. the work i am doing is with white children in majority white areas that are running county lines and stabbing people. i have got a national picture. in newcastle they are shooting each other, white boys. what we are doing is we are targeting our resources in one place and neglecting another because there

are white guys dying because of gang violence but we are not targeting them. there is a bigger issue here. sorry, but my son goes out with a group of friends, and all of a sudden the town and the police have them down as a gang. it is taking away the human aspect from young people. they are suffering and they need support. and they are children. and we need to give them a love and support. i am going to ask you to pause. thank you. i am trying to get something that you just brought up let's look at this photograph. stacey dooley is working in uganda for comic relief. david, you say that kind of image perpetuates tired and unhelpful stereotypes. tell us what you mean.

look, charity is a good thing, all of us understand that. but how we do charity is important. comic relief isa charity is important. comic relief is a 20—year—old formula that asks comedians to perform and sends celebrities, most often white, out to africa. and that image evokes, for lots and lots of ethnic minorities in britain, a colonial image. a white, beautiful heroin, holding a black child, with no agency, no parents in the mouth. actually, if i had my children pose m, actually, if i had my children pose in, iwould never actually, if i had my children pose in, i would never have them with a finger in their mouth, completely sealed pine. it perpetuates an image. it's not that the charity isn't good —— completely supine. comic relief is doing very little to educate its public. people don't realise that the black diaster in britain send more money to africa

that the whole of the aid budget combined, they have no idea. it says nothing about an emerging middle class in africa, nothing about growth in african countries. the image is a perpetual image of people who are impoverished, who need white celebrities who are largely uneducated about the context, and i'm afraid that despite the fact that stacey dooley is popular and has done some fantasticjournalism, the image that she wants to tweet conveys the image that she wants to tweet co nveys a n the image that she wants to tweet conveys an age old trope that her as the heroine and a black child victim. and we've got to stop it. we got to use these platforms are no better way. i have to say, the bbc, which has a responsibility to educate, has a responsibility for equality and multiculturalism, is failing if it allows comic relief and richard curtis, effectively, just to sit back with the same old white privilege and the same old

comedians raking in the money for what purpose? and i say what purpose because comic relief doesn't need to exist. it's got to exist alongside trade, governments and effective campaigning. we used to have the past—its society. it's now called scope because we knew the world of disability has changed and this is no different. change the record, change the formula. i have a statement from comic relief. what does lenny henry say to you when you have had this conversation with him? i have. comic relief say they are changing. they are changing. i challenge them. where are the ethnic minority journalists, cameramen, that would film some of these in very different ways with a different lens? how are they supporting africans to be on television themselves. they are meant to be

changing. . i'm afraid the image stacey put on her instagram conveys a different message. she tweeted you back and said, genuine question, david, is it because i am white? that suggests she doesn't understand theissue that suggests she doesn't understand the issue which is part of the problem. despite the fact that she has power and agency, she hasn't sought to educate herself. i didn't coin "white saviour", it's been around for 100 years. it's this idea that those of us who are westerners are privileged, that africans are victims, that we can save them. it's a kind of missionary idea and it's deeply problematic. because what it does, it keeps the continent of africa poor. it keeps people in their place, doesn't take ownership and it doesn't empower them and the audience. look at the twitter feed that i've had. many people are

entirely ignorant about. this issue they just don't. understand entirely ignorant about. this issue theyjust don't. understand the damage they are causing —— they are ignorant about this issue, they don't understand. mark says he's got this wrong but i respect him, stacey dooley is trying to help and do a good thing raising money for a great charity, stop turning... that's not the point, is it! stop turning every issue into political football. the point, is it! stop turning every issue into politicalfootball. ian says we don't need white middle—class journalists says we don't need white middle—classjournalists bringing children back for what is first and foremost entertainment. it's sickening and reinforcement of white superiority. that's right. comic relief said in our uk international appeal feels people working with all supported by comic relief funded projects tell their own stories in their own words. stacey dooley is a highly acclaimed investigative journalist who has filmed and reported on issues all over the world putting a spotlight on challenge and difficult issues that affect people and we are proud that stacey has given her time. she supports a neonatal unit that helps

to improve care for newborns and women to combat malaria in uganda.” don't think it is stacey's fault. the people that are behind her allowing these images to go out, they have a responsibility. from a societal level, these conversations need to be had. i'm a young black boy and see someone that looks like me stand up on the bbc and say something like this. i don't know the last time i've seen that happen and it's important that we continue to have conversations like that. i don't agree with everything you said but there are role models now. there enough of us that are willing to stand up and go back in and empower kids. the film i made hadi stand up and go back in and empower kids. the film i made had 1 million views in four days and most kids we re young views in four days and most kids were young boys and girls watching. their engagement was 94 being someone their engagement was 94 being someone i can look up to, thank you for being a light and i encourage other people —— was by far thank you for being. i can't emphasise enough, comic relief is responsible for young people in britain, black and white, their understanding of africa. no other organisation has

more responsibility for young people's understanding of africa. education... no, no, comic relief reaches many more kids, it was studied at leeds metropolitan university, that was the case. but education... but the problem with that, if you send kids off for red noses, the young people have no understanding that there are skyscrapers in lagos. of course. they have no understanding that there is an emerging middle class, they have no understanding of growth, they do not understand that black families, like the ones here, send money back for their relatives more than the aid budget. there is a role for schools, but comic relief are in schools. i don't want my children growing up with that perpetual image that damages their sense of selves and leads to the kinds of discussions we were having before about identity. that is the responsibility richard curtis has said he should use the platform responsibly. i will pause there, thank you so much. thank you for

engaging in the conversation, we appreciate it, thank you. and thanks for your messages, keep them coming in. we will talk more about this later on. we'll be talking more about this later with an activitist fomr the no white saviours group and a human rights barrister. and some people who support what stacey dooley is doing. get in touch if you want to take part. talks between president trump and the north korean leader, kimjong—un have broken up in vietnam without an agreement on north korea giving up its nuclear weapons. at a news conference, president trump described the discussions as "very productive", but said he couldn't agree to north korea's request to lift all sanctions. we had a really, i think, very productive time. we thought and i thought and secretary pompeo felt that it wasn't a good thing to be signing anything. i'm going to let mike speak about it. but we literally just left. we spent pretty much all day with kimjong—un, who is... he's quite a guy and quite a character and i think our relationship is very strong.

but at this time, we had some options, and, at this time, we decided not to do any of the options and we will see where that goes. but it was a very interesting two days and i think, actually, it was a very productive two days, but sometimes you have to walk. with me now is our south east asia correspondent, jonathan head. does this mean this is a failure?” think it is a failure, you don't hold a big summit like this with scheduled signing ceremonies and working lunches and cut them half way through without something having gone very wrong. way through without something having gone very wrong. it is always a gamble when you're negotiating with north korea. there have been a lot of meetings prior to this summit at a senior official level where the americans were trying to hammer out what the north korean leader might be willing to concede, to keep this process going and put some flesh onto that first historic meeting they had in singapore, last year.

clearly, the american side believes that kim jong—un was willing to make some kind of concrete concession on his nuclear weapons programme, perhaps the closing of a nuclear facility. and in return i think the us side expected to ease sanctions but what in fact happened was that mr kim repeated what he said before, which is that he wants all sanctions are lifted in return for some progress on his nuclear weapons programme. “— progress on his nuclear weapons programme. —— lifted in return. there is no way any us administration could accept that. mr trump frankly was probably shocked by what he was presented with. he still has this relationship and he still has this relationship and he still believes this personal rapport he has with the north korean dictator will bring results. but he hasn't got any so far. he's left empty—handed with a lot of people doubting that this summit led process ca n doubting that this summit led process can continue. it's just very expensive and extravagant and raises hopes and comment this case, it has dashed them. thanks. joining me is cristina

varriale, research fellow with in proliferation and nuclear policy at rusi and dr grant christopher — who researches how to stop the spread of nuclear weapons. it's a failure, the trump administration was not prepared properly for this round of talks. they really misunderstood the north korean positions and what they were prepared to give up. the north korean very clearly signalled that they wanted a lifting of sanctions. and even in the press conference, they talked about the kind of thing is that the north koreans would give up is that the north koreans would give up on the nucleoside and that was not going to be there and giving up their nuclear weapons which they have gone into mass production of in the last few years —— up on the nuclear site. where both sides naive? i think the americans have more to think about and more mistakes to make. north korea has what it wanted. it got acknowledged on the world stage. yeah. are we in a better position, though, because there is, as far as we know, no more

missile testing? maybe they stopped missile testing? maybe they stopped missile testing? maybe they stopped missile testing because they don't need to test any more because their programme is going into full production. is that what you think? yes. do you. so, the west has been had? we went to a round of deteriorating relations during the testing programme, which was accompanied by trumpian rhetoric, which didn't help the situation which didn't help the situation which made it seem like the crisis was even worse and then we had singapore and perhaps we could have gone forward. this summit had to produce results and we didn't see any. what next? i don't think all is lost. it was an amicable parting and we have to believe the accounts we are given. maybe below the presidential level, some work can be done. really important port point, there has been a change in north

korean us relations. it is the first time leaders have met, that something —— really important point. it doesn't feel like we are at crisis point, like we were two years ago. but we have accidentally or purposely move to a stage where we essentially acknowledge north korea asa essentially acknowledge north korea as a nuclear armed state, the same way we do with israel, pakistan and india. thank you very much. thank you for your patience this morning. the mother of a woman who was beaten to death by her ex—boyfriend has told this programme that training beauticians and hairdressers to recognise the signs of domestic abuse the signs of domestic abuse will save lives. 32—year—old kerri mcauley, a mum of two, was murdered by her boyfriend in her norwich flat in 2017. it turned out later that she had confided in her hairdresser about her abusive relationship and that she feared for her life. her killer, joe storey, had a restraining order imposed on him, which meant he shouldnt had a restraining order imposed

the judge at his trial described this as one of the worst cases of domestic abuse to come before the courts. jo black has this exclusive report. what have you been up to, today, then? nothing, really. just about, indoors. idle chitchat or a conversation that could save your life? she turned round and she said to me, "i know he's going to kill me." they were the words i never thought i would ever hear any of my clients say. we often tell our hairdressers and beauticians more about our lives than anyone else. that's why in one part of the country they're being trained to spot the signs of domestic abuse. but will it work and is it fair to ask beauty professionals to make judgments about our private lives? the moment may come where they ask for that little bit of extra help

and we will be there and know what to do. it's very important to me and family to get out there the dangers and what domestic abuse can actually result in, and that is murder. for months, kerri mcauley, a mum of two, was beaten by her boyfriend, joe storey. but her family knew little about it. me and my daughter talked about everything. we was very open. but, at the time, i think what happens... or i feel what goes on in these domestic abuse, when it gets so bad, they control them and they scared them, where they don't talk to the family

and they don't talk to their close friends, because of what he might do, either to her, to that person, the victim themselves, or to family members and friends. because that's what he did, he threatened my daughter that he would hurt her friends or family, if she was to speak to them. 0n the 8th of january, 2017, joe storey beat her so badly, he broke every bone in herface. she died from her injuries. my daughter was 32 years old, fun loving, loved life. two beautiful boys, aged, at the time when their mother was murdered, age eight and 11. that day when he murdered my daughter, he might as well have taken me with her. the rest of my family, totally torn apart. the whole family. he didn't just murder my daughter that day, it was like he...killed us all.

just weeks before she died, one person kerri did confide in was her hairdresser, annie reilly, who remembers one appointment in particular. when i opened the door to kerri... sorry. she just looked at me and she collapsed into my arms, sobbing. she then went on to explain what her ex— boyfriend, or her then—boyfriend, had done to her, the attack, and how it was delivered. i would rather not sort of repeat that, because it's too painful. that was very private between me and kerri. carried on the appointment and she turned round and she said to me, "i know he's going to kill me." they were the words i never thought i would ever hear any of my clients say.

should i have phoned the police? yeah, of course i should have done. but i didn't know they were words that were meant. ijust thought it was just a statement, a figure of speech, and when i did find out that is actually what happened to her, and that is when i have had... i've asked myself so many, many times, "what if...?" i suppose i felt guilty at times, although i've been reassured, not just by friends and family, but by kerri's mum that, you know, there was nothing that i could have done to prevent what was going to happen. the official report, known as a domestic homicide review, into kerri mcauley‘s death says only one person is to blame and that individual isjoe storey. the review did recognise that the police, the probation service, the cps and social services had all acted in this case, but that opportunities had been

missed to keep kerri safe. a number of recommendations were made, including an awareness campaign aimed at hairdressers and beauticians as potential confidantes of domestic abuse victims. and this is it — teaching beauty professionals how to spot the signs of domestic abuse. if you are doing somebody‘s nails and you can see some of them are kind of broken off, again, it's kind of, be curious, ask those questions. training events like this already take place in the united states, but this session, in norwich, is thought to be the first of its kind in this country. inspired by kerri's story, it is supported by her family and her hairdresser, annie. the training aims to give hairdressers and beauticians the tools and confidence to know what to do if they suspect a client is in trouble. i think you have to do it case by case, you have to think,

listen to your gut. if you really believe that that person is in danger and they are going home to a really risky situation where they might be murdered, then it might be possible that they have to phone the police. but more importantly, it is about empowering their clients to do that themselves. so that clients should be empowered to do it first and, so their clients should be empowered to do it first and, if that's not working, then pick up the phone to the police? is it going to go that far? if they are genuinely concerned about life and death, yes. but that can be really tricky, because we don't ever know if someone's going to be murdered. more than 250 hairdressers and beauticians to conduct this event, but how do these professionals find a balance between helping a client and prying into someone's private life? when you do build up the relationship with clients, they do become more like friends, so, obviously, you do get to know them really personally and i think if you are concerned about them, they would understand. i'm in a lucky position where most of my clients have had of my clients, i've have had

for quite some time, so i'm very aware of where they are within their relationships and within their lives. perhaps if i saw some sort of dramatic change, well, then that would definitely ring alarm bells. but will training events like this really make a difference? well, perhaps chris warr can answer that. during her 30 years as a hairdresser, two of her clients have been murdered by their partners. is there anything you think you have learnt from those two cases? in the first case, although i didn't know there was any level of abuse as such, over the year previous, there was certainly things that were a little bit uncomfortable that she'd been telling me and she'd certainly been struggling in some way. the second case was a complete shock. the most confident and outgoing, beautiful person. you would never have expected something that awful to happen. but chris believes that training sessions like the one held in norwich could, in some cases, make

all the difference. we're really good at keeping secrets and we would never do anything with the information, unless someone wanted us to, but i think when you've listened to someone who's in trouble and you have gained their trust, the moment may come where they ask for that little bit of extra help and we will be there and know what to do. my daughter has two legacies. one of them is her two sons. and the other one is to raise as much domestic violence awareness as we can. to get help out there for these women, children and also men that are being abused. do you think it will go on to save someone's life? yes, i do. well, it can only be good and it can only be positive and it can only save lives.

the labour mp david lammy has exclusuively told this programme that the photo of stacey dooley in uganda holding a black child, "evokes a colonial image for lots of ethnic minorities in britain". stacey dooley posted the picture on her instagram page while working for comic relief in uganda. mr lammy says "the world does not need any more white saviours". white saviour complex is defined as: "a white person who acts to help non—white people, with the help in some contexts perceived to be self—serving". here's mr lammy. charity is a good thing, all of us understand that. comic relief is a 20—year—old formula that asks comedians to perform and sends celebrities,

most often white, out to africa. and that image evokes, for lots and lots of ethnic minorities in britain, a colonial image. a white, beautiful heroine, holding a black child, with no agency, no parents in sight, finger in the mouth. actually, if i had my children poseing, i would never have them have them with a finger in their mouth, completely supine. it perpetuates an image. it's not that the charity isn't good. but comic relief is doing very little to educate its public. thank you for some of your messages. someone says would you pick up random white children in europe and force them to be in yourself is, too? i feel that wouldn't happen. another person says something similar, you wouldn't take pictures with a random child in the uk, so don't do it abroad, it's not normal

to be affectionate to and get attention from strangers. kelly says we need more saviours, why doesn't david lammy volunteer for comic relief, he shouldn't bring race into something that isn't race —related. being charitable and helping people regardless of who they are should be welcomed. ruth says i'm black, sta cy‘s welcomed. ruth says i'm black, stacy's white, i don't care, i don't care, the world needs saviours from every ra ce care, the world needs saviours from every race and if we don't all reach out to each other to express love and support and friendship, why are we here? we can talk to barrister samantha davies — shejoins us from south london and from rwanda, by 0livia alaso from the no white saviours group. she isjoining us from rwanda, i am told. 0livia, good morning. sorry, i will talk to samantha first. tell us what you think of this image. david lammy said everything we need to hear, in fact, about this image. it clearly plays

into a narrative. that narrative is extremely old and it does date back to the colonial era. i would say it's not just people to the colonial era. i would say it's notjust people of ethnic minorities who find this sort of image abhorrent. if we look at other comments on twitter, they are not just coming from people of different ethnic backgrounds. the narrative that we are discussing actually has been well discussed by even journalists such asjeremy paxman who talks about this narrative playing back to the colonial era when conquered nations were brought back and paraded in the united kingdom have that make as trophies. this image plays into this narrative. the world needs people to do good work, we do need to charity, as david lammy himself said. charity isa as david lammy himself said. charity is a good thing. however, when that process doesn't actually empower people for lasting change, one has to question its motives and what the

people who do it are actually seeking to achieve. i read a long statement from comic relief earlier. i'm just going to read some of it again, now. they say they fund projects and people from the releva nt projects and people from the relevant projects in the relevant countries tell their own stories in their own words. they always seem to generally send, victoria, a white celebrity. i mean this discussion is now so old that i would ask why comic relief haven't thought about how they can change the formula. we had this discussion last year, when ed sheeran did a similar thing. it doesn't help anyone. i don't believe it's great publicity for the releva nt it's great publicity for the relevant celebrity. and it perpetuates an image of africa, which, quite frankly, is absolutely outdated, outmoded and there are poor children in the united kingdom. we got about a.5 million children living in poverty in this country. i

don't see those children paraded on television. i don't see celebrities taking photo opportunities with them. clearly, this is a narrative that suits perhaps certain people to perpetuate. i'm going to stop you there. or ignorance perpetuates. we are coming to the end of the programme. apologies we couldn't talk to 0livia from rwanda, we had some technical problems. thank you for your company today. bbc newsroom live is coming up next. have a good day. a distinct change in the weather, today. the warm sunshine has gone and it's been replaced, for some of us at least, so far, with some of this, some rain, which has been moving its way in across wales, north—west england, south—west england. it will work it's way further east and it is quite showery

but if you spells on the far east and some sunshine in the far north—west of scotland —— a few spells. cloudy and foggy in central scotla nd spells. cloudy and foggy in central scotland and southern ireland. misty and murky but a significant drop in temperatures. 8—13d this afternoon. still a few showers through this evening and tonight. 0vernight, it will stay quite cloudy and some mist and marked in places and temperatures no lower than a—8 celsius. friday, mostlya temperatures no lower than a—8 celsius. friday, mostly a dry day for most but there could be the odd shower in central and eastern areas. temperatures around 11—13 degrees celsius. goodbye.

you re watching bbc newsroom live — it's11am and these are the main stories this morning. the summit between donald trump and kim jong—un comes to an abrupt end. the president says no deal was reached in vietnam basically they wanted the sanctions lifted in their entirety and we couldn't do that. a warning from the childrens commissioner for england, who says criminal gangs are preying on vulnerable children in the same way as sexual grooming gangs. latest figures show net migration to the uk, from countries outside the eu, hits its highest level for 15 years. jeremy corbyn says labour will back another eu referendum after his party's plan for brexit was rejected by mps. and, remember sully? the former service dog of the late president george hw