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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  March 4, 2019 4:30am-5:01am GMT

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this is the briefing. i'm sally bundock. our top stories: congressional committee, which has demanded documents from dozens of people, including his son, donaldjr, to examine allegations that the president obstructed tornados in the us state of alabama justice and abused his powers. have killed at least 22 people and left dozens seriously injured, he denies any wrongdoing. there's a warning of more extreme a senior executive of the chinese weather to come. tech company huawei is suing the canadian authorities in relation to her arrest at vancouver airport last year. the men who claim they were tortured by russian police because they are lawyers for meng wanzhou say jehovah's witnesses. the bbc investigates in siberia she was unlawfully detained. she faces charges linked to the alleged violation of us sanctions against iran, which she denies. after days of protests we'll be in hungary to see out how against his decision to seek a fifth prime minister vicktor 0rban‘s term in office, the algerian anti—migrant platform president, abdelaziz bouteflika, has registered as a candidate in elections to be held next month. is affecting european policy. but he's suggested he would only serve one more year if he won the vote. looking to new horizons — how the residents of one seaside town in the uk feel about brexit now. australia's property slump. new numbers out today are likely to show the country's real estate it's liz30am.
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now on bbc news, hardtalk. in 2015, mass migration plunged hungary into chaos. the result — a political backlash still reverberating around hungary and europe today. viktor orban is next to mr macron, mrs merkel, i think, the most influential politician in europe. he is perfecting a kind of new style of politics, single—party rule. hungary is still very far away from russia, azerbaijan or turkey in this respect, but it's inching towards that place. if you want a symbol that captures the power and the simplicity of viktor orban's nationalist message, then this is it. 170km of fortified borderfence. hungary's way of saying
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"no way" to immigration. the ever—growing gap between the political leftist, liberal political elite in western europe and the electorate in the member states has to be closed. if it's growing further, then it's going to ruin the european union. hungary — a small country at the heart of europe, intensely proud of its history, culture and language. the magyar story can be traced back more than 1,000 years. now, it has a new central character — viktor 0rban, hungary's populist prime minister, whose hostility to immigration
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has fuelled the rise of a rebooted nationalism. this pocket of rural hungary feels a very long way away from metropolitan budapest. the communities here are small, rural and deeply traditional, and it was here back in 2015 that thousands of migrants poured into hungary, and you can imagine the impact that had on the national psyche. in the summer of 2015, thousands crossed into southern hungary from serbia every day — syrians, iranians, iraqis, afghans, people drawn to the safety and prosperity of europe, in particular germany. hungary was the unwilling way station. 3.5 years later,
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an impenetrable border barrier divides hungary from serbia, 170km of electrified barbed wire to keep hungary migrant—free. my house is the first house in the european union, so i have a lot of experience with this mass immigration. laszlo toroczkai is mayor of the village next to the new fence. his house overlooks it. he is an extreme hungarian nationalist whose far—right views have become strikingly prominent. we couldn't sleep by night, because the migrants arrive, especially by night. they thought that my office is the borderfence, but there was no fence on the border at that time. yes, but do you really want hungary to become a country of fortified electric fences and high borders and barbed wire? is that your vision for hungary?
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this is not a good situation, but we couldn't do anything else. we had to protect our country, how i would protect my farm, my house. this is the same for me. and don't forget, this mass immigration was a crime. but mr mayor, isn't the truth that your concern about immigration isn't just about security? there is an element of racism in your attitude to immigrants. for example, in your own town, you have declared that you want to ban the burka, you want to ban the building of mosques. you are making it plain that, for you, this is about culture. it isn't just about security. yes, you're right, because i think we need to defend our culture. you know, i respect, for example, the islam in saudi arabia.
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but hungary is a christian country. 0ur traditions are christian traditions. the european union is not working now. the european union cannot preserve the european culture. they will destroy it, and there will be just not be diversity, there will be a uniformist society, you know, without colours, without european colours. who will defend the european people, the european nations? hungary now allows just two would—be asylum seekers to enter the country from serbia per day. they are held in one of two secure detention camps right next to the border fence. the overwhelming majority of applications for refugee status are summarily rejected. the hungarian government's determination to keep this transit zone off—limits goes
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far beyond just journalists. the un sent a panel of experts to find out what was going on beyond this fence late last year, and the government wouldn't let them in. very few muslim migrants were allowed to settle in hungary during the 2015 crisis. this pastry shop is owned by one who was, freydun. but prime minister 0rban insists hungary is a christian country. muslims, he says, create parallel societies. they are not welcome. in today's hungary, human rights
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workers offering assistance to migrants are seen as the enemy within. now, the only place where asylum seekers are in hungary is the border transit zone, a detention centre. so, we still know what is going on. we're still able to help them. just a week ago, something happened that i think was outrageous. a family of five — mother, father, three small kids — are detained in the transit zone. they're from iraq, their asylum claim has been rejected. but they're still detained there until the authorities can do something with them to remove them from hungary. and the parents, because of the loss of an asylum seeker status, they were no longer given food. children were receiving food, but not the parents. the parents are effectively being starved. exactly. this went on for 6.5 days, and it was only because they had lawyers who turned to the european court of human rights
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to ask that court to give an emergency order so that the hungarian government would be compelled to start giving food. do you fear right now for the future of hungarian democracy? absolutely, that's why i'm doing what i'm doing, and many other people are doing what they are doing. when they are protesting, when they are organising, civil society organisations, when they turn to us with ideas, when they actually give us support, both moral and financial, it's because of the concern and a very, very heartfelt and very serious concern. and, this fight of yours, if it ends up with you facing criminal charges or a possible prison sentence...? i think that's not very realistic in hungary today. hungary is still very far away from russia, azerbaijan or turkey in this respect, but it is inching toward that place. viktor 0rban first rose to power
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as an anti—communist champion of freedom. but these days, his foe is international liberalism, specifically george soros, the billionaire american financier of hungarian—jewish origin, who has spent $500 million supporting liberal and progressive causes in hungary. today, soros‘s face is everywhere, currently pictured alongside eu commission presidentjean—claude juncker. this government ad claims that together, they are threatening hungary's security by encouraging immigration. soros has become mr 0rban‘s go—to target. the university he founded in budapest in 1981 has been hounded, and it is now moving its main campus to vienna. this is the last class of students who will get us—certified
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ceu degrees in budapest. because this is a private university and, ultimately, it is financed by the billionaire, george soros. sre you comfortable with that? because the hungarian government tells all of hungary's citizens that soros is a great danger to this country. i think soros has created opportunities for many fellow hungarians, including government officials. i have been thinking about this a lot, like, why am i different to any of those other hungarian, fellow hungarian students studying in a masters programme? and i couldn't find an answer. i can't speak on behalf of all of the students. our main goal here is not to become a soros agent, or be part of any political movement, idea, theory, whatever. are you feeling angry right now? iam angry. i've been angry. but i think anger was changed to this feeling of insecurity
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for a long time now, which is kind of devastating. steven, we'd like to stay in budapest forever, and we will maintain a presence in budapest. it depends what the law allows. but we are going to be forced to move our degree programmes to vienna in september because we are not allowed to offer them in budapest here. so, we will be split in two. we will be bringing back the austro—hungarian empire. they will be vienna and budapest. you know, it's tragic, in my view, because our home is here. but that's what the 0rban government has decided. but you see the government says you are crying wolf, that the central european university can remain here, that you can still offer degree programmes here, and, frankly, you are making a political point for your own purposes,
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but you are not telling the truth about what's happening. i don't take lessons in the truth from the 0rban government, frankly. they passed legislation in 2017 that said you can't stay here unless you make a deal with us. we then negotiated a deal with them, and then they refused to sign it. once they refused to sign it, we are not allowed to issue us—accredited degrees in budapest. those are facts. i didn't make them up. you are free to sit here and discuss with me just how, in your view, how wrongheaded the 0rban government is. other universities, indeed other american universities, can still operate in budapest and issue their american degrees. i come back to the point that, in the end, it seems to me a lot of this is about mr soros‘s problem with viktor 0rban. and we can discuss that, but that's rather different than a wholesale attack on liberty.
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well, that would be true, again, if there weren't this 8—year, 9—year pattern of, essentially, this is a regime that is hostile to any free institution. yes, i can speak to you freely, and i have taken advantage of it. this is a free society, i've never denied that. but it is consolidating a new form of single—party rule within a european state. they are trying something new here, which is to create a single—party regime that holds power indefinitely, extracts resources from the society, replaces... fills all institutions with its own people, and basically steadily reduces the frame of freedom here. this is something new. this is a 215t—century phenomenon that i think we need to understand. 0rban‘s contention is that george soros has fundamentally changed from being a men who simply wants to encourage freedom.
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he has become a man who is determined to shape the nations of central and eastern europe in his own own liberal image, if you like. yeah, but the whole thing is a kind of fantastic conspiracy theory. you know, change inside hungarian society will happen because hungarians want it to happen. this regime needs george soros in order to run a campaign to mobilise its base. it's the politics of enemies. it bears — george soros's capacity to change, affect, move hungary is just about zero. the person who has a very large capacity to change, affect, move hungary, for good or ill, is viktor 0rban. prime minister 0rban comes from the village of felcsut, a short drive from budapest.
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it is home to 1,800 people. it is perhaps the most pampered community in all of hungry. it has its own railway line, all of 6 km long, to the village next door. there are so few passengers, it shuts down for the winter. being in mr 0rban‘s home village is a surreal experience. it tells you a lot about his penchant for crony capitalism. there is this railway to nowhere, built with 2 million euros of european union funds. and just down the track, there is a swanky new football stadium built on mr 0rban‘s land with massive tax breaks. and then there is his oldest, closest friend, the former mayor of the village, who just happens to be hungary's richest oligarch. viktor 0rban famously loves football, so he had this 10 million euro stadium built right next to his house.
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down the road is a state—of—the—art sports centre. this village tells you plenty about how power works in 0rban‘s hungary. what do you think of your prime minister, mr 0rban? do you like him? hungary is firmly in viktor 0rban‘s grip. now, he is looking to a bigger canvas. with european elections looming, he is working with like—minded leaders in italy, poland and beyond. could anti—immigrant, illiberal populism become europe's
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dominant political movement? it's very sad to see the political left utilising the european institutions for its political goals, and i think that's the first thing that stands out. i mean, in the european union, if you have a disagreement over things, namely whether the country's measures, laws and preferences are in line or not in line with what the european union expects, there is one way to settle that, and that is a legal debate. is it not the truth that at the heart of your government's world view is a conspiracy theory that george soros, an american financier who of course has hungarian roots, is in essence trying to destroy and undermine hungary by use of migration and the lure of migrants into your country? it is nonsense, but it is an idea that you have peddled for the last three years and more.
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in the face of what you are trying to suggest, there is hard reality on the ground, and that is mr soros has invented himself as a political actor a couple of decades ago. without saying, that was the intention. if you take a look at his manifestos, the work of the institute, look at his project syndicated website, which is the primary way of announcing plans and ideas about his visions about europe, you are going to see that there is no need for any kind of conspiracy theory because that kind of manipulation of eu policies has been done by mr soros, as the last few years indicate. it's important to point out that mr soros‘s network of institutions is something which is executing and exercises lots of power, without ever
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being elected, without a mandate coming from the people. sorry, you're saying that civil society organisations which advocate for human rights... ngos, in our eyes, especially belonging to mr soros, has nothing to do with civil society. i'm struggling to understand you here. civil society... crosstalk. marta pardavi works very hard for human rights in many different fields, including the rights of migrants, and she says that her work is being hampered, her organisation is being harassed by your government. civil society is grassroots. we have 65,000 civil organisations in this country. what about the helsinki committee? we've had a debate with a couple of dozen of them, though, which are nothing to do with grassroots. they are not coming from the will of the people. late last year, you refused to let a un panel of experts into your so—called transit zones. because they hadn't announced their visit in time... so you are acknowledging it is true? pardon me?
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you are acknowledging it is true, that you have not let them in. you are trying to portray something as though it is institutionalised, but we are working together with all international organisations, as required by international law, and especially, coming back to the citation, she is in no way an authority who decides whether we violate the law. she has an opinion that we violate the law. if she wants, we go to court and the court will decide. she does go to court. last week her lawyers, lawyers working with her, went to court because your transit zone was actually violating the law by refusing food to two iraqis who were there with their children and were denied food by the people running one of the transit zones. going to court doesn't mean that they are right. it's a court decision that is going to declare to you who is right and who is wrong. the thing is here that we have a case here, and that is that there are established laws for the country, by the constitution and the legislation of parliament.
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then there is international law, which has never suggested migration is a human right. i wonder if it grieves you to see a respected university, respected around the world, the central european university, closing down in this city and moving to vienna, because of your government's refusal... you have to be very clear with the formulation of your questions. take a five—minutes walk down the street and you're going to find the central european university operating the heart of budapest. yes, but their headquarters and the bulk of their operations are now going to be in vienna. you can deny it if you like, it is simply true. an element of their activity moved, which is not in line with hungarian law. how is it that other universities... mr kovacs, does the truth matter to you? the university is still down the street. does the truth matter to you? take a five—minute walk, the central european university is still here. ijust said the bulk of its operations have moved to vienna. take a five—minute walk. the central european university is still there. i am happy to take a five—minute walk. i invite you to come with me.
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you'll see that the headquarters of the university has been moved to vienna. my colleague michael ignatieff, a respected canadian politician turned director of the university, calls it a tragedy, a tragedy not just the hungary but for europe. we can have an argument about the use of words, but he is a failed liberal politician in canada, by his own words. what does that have to do with anything? your question announced him as a respected politician. you can be respected even if you don't win power. it seems to me that you repeatedly try to make personal attacks, whether it be on soros or whoever, to hide your own cynical agenda. there is no cynical agenda. there is one line we keep ourselves to, and that is law is there for all. i just want you to tell me whether your vision is of an illiberal state, and a vision which you believe applies beyond hungary's borders to europe generally? our vision is a perception which is not liberal by the political sense of the word, and that is, we — the value system which belongs to christian democrats, according to our christian democratic values, is on the same footing as, i suggest, with liberal values.
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we make preferences. we make preferences in family, we make preferences if it's about institutions, the work of institutions, if it's about the community and the individual, according to our perception, thatis political perception. that is simply a lie and a misconception, that there is only one interpretation of the word liberal. in that sense, yes, we are going for an illiberal perception of the european union, which is a lot closer, as a matter of fact, to the original sense of the founding fathers. we see that for the past three years, especially since the migration crisis, there is a rift, and that is the ever—growing gap between the political leftist, liberal elite in europe, and the electorates in the member states, has to be closed. if it's growing further, then it's going to ruin the european union. if you don't listen to the people's voice, which is clearly different from what the political elites try to suggest,
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that's going to end in disaster. it is three decades since hungary was freed from the darkness of the soviet empire. back then, viktor 0rban opposed authoritarianism and championed freedom. how the political currents have shifted in 30 years. hello again. we had a stormy end to the weekend. in fact, storm freya is still across our shores, so there's still the potential for the next few hours of hazardous conditions for travelling, because we've got the heavy rain, some snow, especially over
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the hills, but even to some lower levels, and those gales really packing a punch, perhaps some severe gales in places. this is that tell—tale area of cloud, storm freya, which is going to move out quite quickly through the early hours of monday into the north sea. but as i say, before it does clear out the way, we've still got the remnants of the rain in the south, the strong and gusty winds, very lively winds, even inland, and we've seen it fell trees as well. and then we've got that heavy rain and gale force winds driving down the north sea coast again, with some snow. and it's pretty chilly behind it, some frost for northern and western areas, so i suppose the potential is there for a little bit of iciness first thing. but otherwise, a much brighter start to monday than we had on sunday. that sunshine continues, although with it there'll be an increased risk of showers developing into the afternoon, and that will obviously temper the way things feel. but certainly plenty of showers to the northern and western isles, coming into mainland scotland eventually, and into northern ireland,
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across england and wales. just the potential, then, that they could be wintry over the hills. there'll certainly be hail and thunder. but if you're sheltered from the breeze, in the sunshine, you'll start to feel the effect of that strengthening march sunshine. lots of showers continuing through the coming night. in fact, we could see lengthier spells of rain, hill snow too, because it is quite chilly air. so you can imagine somewhere in the countryside, sheltered, we will see a touch of frost, but fairly localised. low pressure dominates the weather as we go into tuesday. there's storm freya, well and truly off into parts of scandinavia. but, with low pressure close by, it will be still keeping things unsettled. there will be showers or longer spells of rain, centred across northern parts of the uk. hill snow as well. they will tend to ease in the south ahead of this next area of rain, which is our next area of low pressure.
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so midweek looks set to turn very much more unsettled once again, with more widespread rain or heavy showers, strong winds for a time, and yes, a more lengthy spell of snow, potentially, as it comes — that weather system comes into that cold air across the northern half of the country. so that's something that we'll keep our eye on. much milder airfollows on behind, with heavy showers, hail and thunder and gusty winds as well. so a tale of two halves, really, on wednesday. so it does look much more unsettled than last week. there will be chilly weather towards the end of the week when it quietens down, but for the meantime, the warnings are on the website.
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