tv BBC News Special BBC News March 12, 2019 7:00pm-8:01pm GMT
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to fail again, and maybe fail going to fail again, and maybe fail badly. the reality is, for our viewers, as and when that happens in the next hour, nobody in westminster today, even senior members of the cabinet, can tell you what happens next. it is a big night in westminster. let's go straight to the house of commons where the speaker, john bercow, is now calling this pivotal vote. of the contrary, no? no! division! clear the lobby. so, mps now beginning to vote through the division lobbies. they physically walk through the division lobby, for or against mrs may's brexit deal. a packed house, over 630 of them voting tonight. it will
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ta ke 50 630 of them voting tonight. it will take 50 minutes or so for them to count the votes and we will bring you the result. no amendments, so we are going straight to the big vote. mps, are they for or against the terms on which mrs may wishes to ta ke terms on which mrs may wishes to take us out of the european union? laura kuenssberg is still with us. you were saying this deal is going to go down tonight? that is everyone in westminster‘s expectation that the prime minister will lose again. the scale of the defeat will be crucial in terms of the next moves that she decides to make. barring some kind of political miracle in the last few minutes, where she might be able to reverse the situation. let's assume, as people at the top of government are assuming tonight, that she is about to lose, and lose again. if the defeat is small, maybe, just maybe, she could have another go. there are still 17 days in order to try to get this deal done somehow before we are due to leave the european union.
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that is on march the 29th? yes, and the prime minister has promised more than 80 times, standing in the house of commons behind us. if the vote is on the same huge scale as the end of january, there is pressure on her not just from the january, there is pressure on her notjust from the opposition parties, but the tory party itself, over whether she should delay brexit, maybe even tomorrow, should she choose a softer brexit and try and get her through parliament, or should she in earnest to start planning to leave the eu without a formal deal in place? enormous choices will be in front of her in an hour's time, if and when she is expected to lose. europe is vital to all of this. our europe editor katya adlerjoins us from strasbourg. katya, other europeans, are they now assuming, despite the concessions they made up a last minute, that mrs may loses tonight, and are they already beginning to think about extending the whole brexit process,
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the article 50 process? well, andrew, behind the scenes, even though the eu feels that they did make a clear move towards theresa may and her concerns about the backstop last night, they realised that there was concessions, or clarifications, would not be enough, probably, to appease hardliners in parliament. so behind the scenes yesterday already they were saying, we don't think this deal is going to pass. but there were hopes that would be able to be resolved domestically, so that there wouldn't be... so it wouldn't be rejected by so be... so it wouldn't be rejected by so much. and theresa may somehow would be able to negotiate with mp5 to finally get a deal passed. there is an expectation on the eu side that they will be a request for an extension at this stage, even though they are looking at the turmoil in they are looking at the turmoil in the uk and are not 100% sure what to expect. the question tonight is, an extension for what exactly? the eu
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is quite exasperated. they say two to theresa may, look, she has been honest about trade—offs, if you leave the single market, they say it is not possible to have frictionless trade or avoid a hard customs border. so to perpetuate this, for theresa may to keep turning to the eu to solve her domestic political problems, they say that is not going to work. they believe her biggest problems are not the withdrawal agreement or the backstop, but the splits between hard brexiteers, soft brexiteers and remainers, tory mps and labourmps, they brexiteers and remainers, tory mps and labour mps, they say they have run out of ideas of how to help her, extension or not. just to clarify, before i let you go, if there is to before i let you go, if there is to be an extension, that is a matter for the eu? the purpose of the extension, that is basically down to
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the eu. and the length of the extension, that is basically down to the eu as well. is that correct? well, it is down to the uk to request an extension. theresa may would have to formally request an extension from the eu. then under eu law, all 27 eu leaders would have to agree unanimously to grant that extension. we know eu leaders, even though they may not be the most positive of moods at the moment, wa nt positive of moods at the moment, want to avoid a no—deal brexit if possible. so they are likely to grant an extension. at the moment, what is being spoken about is the idea of a shorter extension. that would be up to theresa may to ask what length of extension she wants, what length of extension she wants, what has been talked about again in the uk is a three month extension. the eu right now is saying it would have to be a lot shorter than that, unless the uk wants to field its own candidate in the upcoming european parliamentary elections. if it doesn't, the uk would need to be out
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by may the 24th. eu leaders are asking, what can be achieved by then? why cracker we will see if we can get an answer tonight. thank you for joining can get an answer tonight. thank you forjoining us. this is what they are voting on tonight. they are the negotiated agreement between the uk and the eu which allows the uk to leave. and the political declaration on what a future relationship could look like. they'll also be asked to approve new documents agreed last night in strasbourg, including thejoint uk—eu instrument to clarify the withdrawal agreement, which aims to reduce the risk that the uk could be deliberately held in the northern ireland backstop indefinitely. the unilateral declaration by the uk, which sets out the circumstances under which the uk would consider seeking an end to the backstop. and the so—called joint statement on how future relationship talks
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should be conducted. so, complicated. but it is basically quite simple. are we leaving or not on mrs may's deal? our chief political correspondent vicki young is in the houses of parliament. what is the atmosphere like there?|j have what is the atmosphere like there?” have just spoken to one conservative mp who has just voted, walked through here and said there is no way she is going to win this. it is looking terrible, it looks like another huge defeat for her. he said he saw people who said they were supporting her this morning who have switched sides to vote against her again. this is a deal that theresa may has been working on for the last two years. it has already been massively rejected by mps. it looks like the same thing could happen again. throughout the day i have been talking to mps here. they all
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expected to be a defeat. for some, it is utter despair. some of them didn't want brexit themselves, but they are voting for this deal because they want to respect the result of the referendum. and yet there are mps that wanted that are not supporting it, and critics who say they are asking for the impossible, that they are not willing to compromise. i think that is the feeling among a lot of people, that with just 17 days to go until the date when we are supposed to be leaving the european union, still, there are mps on all sides that are not willing to compromise at this point. of course, this is wrapped up with theresa may's leadership, too. many mps speculating and saying in normal time she would not, as prime minister, be able to survive this. she would be forced to resign. we are not, of course, in normal times. mps have been streaming back into the chamber, having voted. there are still mps to vote. we are expecting the result shortly. i'm joined now by senior editor at the economist, anne mcelvoy, matthew parris, columnist for the times and the spectator, and the talk radio presenter julia hartley—brewer. welcome to you all. julia, what
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happens next if she loses big time? in normal times, if the prime minister can't get her main policy through the house of commons on the second attempt, a defeat of 100 mp5, 150, would resign. we do not live in normal times. we could see her calling a general election, the revoking of article 50, almost anything. we just don't know? anybody who tells you they know, doesn't know. even the prime minister. matthew, do you know? i can add to that list, she might even resign. people don't buckle until they do. that point might come. she will be completely shocked, com pletely will be completely shocked, completely without power, without authority, how can she go to the summit meeting in a few days' time, asa summit meeting in a few days' time, as a prime minister who has lost the support of the house? you don't think she can? i think she thinks
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she can. she always plays along. she is very shocked and very angry, i think, about the advice of the attorney general. she feels that has put her in this position. but she does have a bit of road left. if nobody else wants herjob... does have a bit of road left. if nobody else wants herjob. .. nobody else wants the job? nobody else wants it now. people are queueing up. i think they don't. i think they wa nt up. i think they don't. i think they want to wait until this has run out of the road. let's see what the numbers are like. they are not going to be good for her. we know that, julia is quite right, in normal time she would be toast. if she can get it under 100 she would have a good night. how absurd is that? losing a vote by under 100, well done? you could tell from the mood in the chamber, not just because could tell from the mood in the chamber, notjust because the prime minister's voice has broken, you
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could feel the mood in the chamber, looking at someone who is the walking wounded. she has nothing left in the bag, nothing left at all. jean—claude juncker said clearly, sitting next to her, that is it, no third chances. that is only when she is in office. who knows what else could happen with another prime minister? we have seen uncertainty for quite some time. the whole brexit process has been uncertain, long and drawn out. it would seem to me tonight, if this vote goes against the prime minister big time, and we also vote in the commons not to leave on a no—deal basis, the uncertainty we have seen is nothing compared to what is coming up? yes, as i heard you say a little while ago, we don'tjust claim an extension, we ask for it. we need permission. we have no idea what the response will be. they will wa nt to what the response will be. they will want to know what we want it for, they will want to know we are not going to have it beyond the european elections coming up. it may be that they attach terms to the extension that mps want to vote again on. it is really ha rd that mps want to vote again on. it is really hard to say. is it not
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possible, as parliament seems to ta ke possible, as parliament seems to take control of this process, as the government seems to be losing control of the process, there is not a majority in the commons for any of the main alternatives. people might begin to think, well, we don't really like mrs may's deal, but at least it was a deal, a way forward, at least it told us we would move into a transition period, leave after 21 months, investment could be unleashed, the economy would start to grow more quickly? that would be the argument for signing up to the deal regardless of what your views are. it is happening. you are right to point that out. there is a bit of crumbling away. i think the hardline brexiteers, the erg that have driven the resistance, you can see the softer end of them thinking on the way that you have suggested. the trouble is that the timeline is too short, it is a film that has been badly put together, the soundtrack and the pictures are not matching. she may think if she can get that extension, maybe zombie, but zombies
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can go on extension, maybe zombie, but zombies can go on for a while, she might have another run at this, unless someone have another run at this, unless someone is brave enough in her own ranks to say, well, i'm going to put my hat in the ring and try to do it instead. it is true that if it doesn't appear there is anything parliament can agree on, one way forward might be to come back to her deal. another way would be to go for a second referendum, a fresh referendum. or a general election. what are the party stand on? we are watching mps coming back. the house is filling up, but the lobbies have a lot of people in them. this is a big vote, a lot of votes to count. it isa big vote, a lot of votes to count. it is a physical vote. we are getting things coming through on twitter, that is the pact —— packed lobbies. can we say one thing with
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certainty if this goes down big time tonight, that we are not leaving on the 29th of march? i don't think we can even say that. there is a lot of certainty from remainers thinking that we can get no deal of the table, in spite of the fact that it is the table, and we can get this delay. we can revoke article 50, but we cannot unilaterally try to extend it. we can try? but not unilaterally. the eu is likely to agree. but in return for what? so we do not leave on the 29th? once parliament has decided it wants to do something, say she won tonight, you can do things remarkably fast. opposition crumbles and everybody gets behind the wheel. so it might just be possible to do it by the 29th. i don't know. just be possible to do it by the 29th. idon't know. isuspect just be possible to do it by the 29th. i don't know. i suspect not, although a lot of our guarantees do not last long. i suspect not and i
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think that the mood is aligned for an extension, both in downing street and talking to the european capitals. i think that is where they feel it is now going. there has to bea feel it is now going. there has to be a purpose to it. it has to be sold as a technical extension, even if it something else. the mood in the eu in the house of commons might be foran the eu in the house of commons might be for an extension, it is not with the british people, the one thing they all agree with is get it over and done with. you think an extension would be unpopular?m and done with. you think an extension would be unpopular? it is a public vote, we will know how they voted and then they have to face their electorate, having delayed brexit, i think they will find that is not a popular move. let's take you back to the house of commons. we will be expecting the result any moment now. the tellers will deliver the result verbally and on paper to the result verbally and on paper to the speaker of the house. theresa may came back from strasbourg. she
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had made a number of changes. she has now just had made a number of changes. she has nowjust sat down on the front bench, on the treasury bench as they call it, in the prime minister's place. i suspect she knows she has lost. she had hoped with enough changes to the agreement that her attorney general would say this was a major legal change in the country's ability to leave the northern irish backstop. he did not do that. the ulster unionists, the democratic unionist party, decided it could not support the change, the twea ked it could not support the change, the tweaked agreement, which meant that the jacob rees mogg, eurosceptic wing of the conservative party could not either. she needed all three to happen to get a majority for her deal and even then it might have been a stretch. but neither of these things has happened, which is why the expectation here tonight in westminster is that she is going
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down to defeat. what then happens? nobody quite knows. we are expecting a statement from the prime minister. the prime minister may well make a statement either on leaving on no deal, or saying she has to go to brussels to ask for an extension to the whole article 50 process. let's go to vicky young. she is still in the central lobby. what are you hearing now the vote has taken place? speculation is all about what she is likely to say when she stands up. she has to say something if it is another huge defeat. the timetable as it has been setup previously is that if it is a defeat, tomorrow there is another vote on if they should be no—deal brexit. should the uk leave the eu at the end of march without a deal? knowing the parliamentary make up it is very clear that would not get
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through. the likelihood of us living at the end of march without the deal would be ruled out by parliament tomorrow. the next stage after that is to say to the prime minister that you need to go and ask for a delay. the speculation today is centred around whether the prime minister decides to say at this point she wa nts to decides to say at this point she wants to ask for a delay to brexit know. but it throws up so many questions. the eu has to agree to a delay. they may say you can only delay. they may say you can only delay to a year, you have to have a long extension of article 50. what it means is that mps and parliament will be taking control of the brexit process rather than the prime minister being in control of it. that is not a good place for any prime minister to be. that is why there is so much speculation today about whether she could carry on if her deal is defeated in such a huge way. there are many people who feel,
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certainly lots of tories, who would not want her to lead them into another general election. they feel her days might be numbered in the job. but as we have seen from the past she tends to carry on. people have praised herfortitude and resilience for carrying on in the face of adversity. as one minister said, there are a lot of people who do not want brexit to happen at all and a lot of people who do not want no deal to happen and she has come up no deal to happen and she has come up with a compromise not many people want. it has gone very quiet here. everyone is expecting the vote to come. there is no sign of the tellers. just to explain, four people will walk in and they will walk up to the table in the middle and they will read at the result. they talk about the ayes, the people who will be voting for the deal, and the noes, those who will vote against it. as we heard earlierfrom
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against it. as we heard earlierfrom a couple of mps who walked out of here, from what they could see, it isa here, from what they could see, it is a physical voting system, there is a physical voting system, there is no pressing of a button or electronic voting, you walk physically through one way or another and it is pretty easy for mps to assess what has happened. i do not know what the delay is. all the mps are back in, up to 650 mps. it is absolutely packed in there, compared to earlier where the prime minister was making an important speech and there were a lot of empty seats, which is unusualfor such speech and there were a lot of empty seats, which is unusual for such a huge day. the tellers have to barge their way through the crowd and come up their way through the crowd and come up and read at the result. quite often there is a delay. there is a delay in the lobbies. on the assumption that we can get anywhere nearthem. assumption that we can get anywhere near them. the speaker intervened, but there is no sign of the tellers.
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they are either slow counters, or they are making sure they get this historical vote right. the prime minister is in place. as vicky was saying, tonight's vote is not the end of it. i vote is scheduled for tomorrow night in which the commons will vote on leaving on a new deal at all. the commons will have a view on that in the expectation is the commons will intervene to stop us leaving on a new deal, to get the law changed before march the 29th by a parliamentary technique. then it is not over after that. there is another schedule on thursday night when it is expected the commons will instruct the prime minister to ask foran instruct the prime minister to ask for an extension to the brexit process , for an extension to the brexit process, this article 50 process as it has been called, which means we will not leave on the 29th of march. the tellers are gathering. let's make sure we do not miss it and go
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in there. order, order. the ayes to the right, 242, the noes to the left, 391. the ayes to the right, 242. the noes to the left, 391. the noes have it, the noes have it. unlock. so the prime minister has not just lost for a second unlock. so the prime minister has notjust lost for a second time, she has lost it big—time. notjust lost for a second time, she has lost it big-time. i regret the decision that has been taken tonight. i continue to believe that the best outcome is the uk leaves the best outcome is the uk leaves the european union and an orderly fashion with a deal and the deal we
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have negotiated is the best and the only deal available. mr speaker, have negotiated is the best and the only dealavailable. mr speaker, i would like to set up briefly have the government means to proceed. two weeks ago i made a series of commitments regarding the steps we would take in the event this has rejected the deal. i stand by those commitments in full. tonight we will table a motion for debate tomorrow to test whether the hosts supports leaving the european union without a deal on the 29th of march. the leader of the host will make an emergency business statement confirming the change. this is an issue of great importance for the future of our country. just like the referendum, there are strongly held an equally legitimate views on both sides. for that reason i can confirm that this will be a free vote on the side of the house. i have personally
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struggled with this choice, as i am sure many honourable members well. i am passionate about delivering the result of the referendum, but i equally passionately believe that the best way to do that is to live in an orderly way with a deal. i still believe there is a majority in the house for that course of action. iam the house for that course of action. i am conscious also of my duties as prime minister of the united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland and of the potential damage to the union that even without the deal could do when one part of our country is without devolved government. i can therefore confirm that the motion will read that this has declined to approve leaving the european union without a withdrawal agreement and the framework on the future relationship on the 29th of march 2019, and notes that living without the deal remains the default in uk and eu law unless this house
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and the eu ratify an agreement. i will return to the house to open the debate tomorrow and to take interventions from honourable members and to ensure the house is fully informed in making this historic decision. the government will tomorrow publish information on essential policies which would need to be put in place if we left without the deal. this will cover ta riffs without the deal. this will cover tariffs and the northern ireland border among other matters. if the house votes to leave without a deal on the 29th of march, it will be the policy of the government to implement that decision. if the host declined to approve leaving without the deal, the government will bring forward a motion on thursday on whether parliament wants to seek an extension to article 50. if the house votes for an extension, the government will seek to agree the extension with the eu and bring forward the necessary legislation to change the exit date commensurate
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with the extension. but let me be clear, voting against leaving without a deal and for an extension does not solve the problems we face. the eu will want to know what use we will make of such an extension and this house will have to answer that question. does it wish to revoke article 50? does it want to hold a second referendum ? article 50? does it want to hold a second referendum? yes! no! or does it want to leave with a deal but not this deal. these are unenviable choices, but thanks to the decision that the house has made this evening, they are choices that must now be faced. point of order, mr jeremy corbyn. thank you, mr speaker. the government has been
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defeated again by an enormous majority and they must now accept their deal, the proposal, is clearly dad and does not have the support of this house. quite clearly a new deal must be taken off the table. we have said that before and we will say it again. but it does mean the house has got to come together with a proposal that could be negotiated. the labour party has put the proposal and we will put that proposal and we will put that proposal again because the dangers of what the prime minister is proposing are basically the effort she carries on threatening us all with the danger of no deal, the danger of that, knowing full well the damage that will do to the british economy, this party will put forward our proposals again which are about a negotiated customs union, access to the market and protection of rights. those are the ones we will put forward. we believe
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there may well be a majority for them, but there will also be the potential of negotiating them. the prime minister has run down the clock on the clock has run out on her. maybe it is time instead we had a general election and the people could choose who that government should be. the big news from westminster tonight, should be. the big news from westminstertonight, going should be. the big news from westminster tonight, going round the world, is that the prime minister, theresa may, has lost, for a second time, her brexit deal in the commons. this time it has gone down by 149 votes. not as many as the 231st time round, but 149 is a huge defeat by any standards. a hoarse and dejected prime minister saying she would allow the commons to vote
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on whether we should leave with no deal. she said there would be a free vote on the government side, possibly because any attempt to whip the cabinet or the conservative party in favour of no—deal would split it wide open. if the commons rejects leaving on no—deal, there will be a third vote on thursday night in which the commons will get to ask the prime minister to seek an extension to the article 50 process, meaning we likely do not leave on march the 29th. let's go straight back to vicki young in the houses of parliament. it must be getting pretty tumultuous in there, quite a night? it is. another huge defeat on that deal, that important information from the prime minister, she will go ahead with those two votes in the next couple of days. crucially, she will give a free vote. just to explain that to people, it means she will not be directing her mps to vote on any
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particular way. they are allowed to vote according to their own personal point of view. it is highly unusual on something so important, but she knows her party is deeply split on this, she would have had resignations on one side or the other if she had gone one way or the other. let's speak to sir graham brady, the person in charge of the another massive defeat for the prime minister? i represent the backbenches, i would minister? i represent the backbenches, iwould not minister? i represent the backbenches, i would not pretend to be in charge of them. i am glad that is not a responsibility i have to fulfil. a very difficult situation now. i supported the government this evening, not because i thought the amended agreement was perfect, far from it, but it was a step in the right direction. the attorney had strengthened his legal advice and i felt very strongly it is time to move felt very strongly it is time to move forward and demonstrate we can get on with this, and give the country some of the certainty and clarity people crave. the danger over the next couple of days is that things might get more confusing, rather than more straightforward. i think all members of parliament are going to have to reflect on the
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importance of demonstrating that they respect the views of the british people, who have given a clear, democratic mandate in the referendum, and that they do not wish simply to delay or prevent us leaving the european union. looks like there will now probably be a delay to brexit. for those of you who are very much supporting brexit, are you dismayed that now that may not happen on time?” are you dismayed that now that may not happen on time? i think it is fairto not happen on time? i think it is fair to say that there is an enormous difference between a delay to our departure because we had reached an agreement, and a delay to our departure without an agreement in place. in my view, anybody who vote to delay our departure when we have no agreement is simply voting not to leave. it is clearly contrary to the manifesto promises of both of the major parties, labourand conservatives both pledged that we would leave the european union, we would leave the european union, we
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would leave the customs union too. it would be a clear breach of the manifestos on which mps were nearly all elected. graham brady, thank you very much indeed. another hugely important vote here tomorrow night. thanks very much. theresa may's deal goes down again bya theresa may's deal goes down again by a huge majority against it. we are joined by a huge majority against it. we arejoined by a by a huge majority against it. we are joined by a former minister in the blair— brown years, peter mandelson. you know how brussels works well. if we go and ask for an extension, if that is what we end up doing by the end of this week, what is the eu's attitude likely to be?” think the eu will want to know, first and foremost, what the purpose of the extension is. if it is simply for a couple of months more for the cabinet to remain divided, for mps to wrangle and for no clear outcome to wrangle and for no clear outcome
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to come from the whole process, i think, quite frankly, they are more likely to say, you know, you have had your vote, if you want to revoke article 50 that is one thing. it simply to stumble on in this sort of chaosis simply to stumble on in this sort of chaos is not something we want you to inflict on us any longer. so it would follow from there that the eu is likely to ask for a long extension of perhaps a year or so, or more? i think it would, and i believe that is quite honestly probably the best thing. for the next six months plus, they are going to be completely preoccupied with the european elections, parliamentary elections, which are going to be very rough. they are going to be very rough. they are going to be very rough. they are going to produce a result which is going to produce a result which is going to produce a result which is going to probably be a very fragmented and rather difficult to manage european parliament. they are then going to have to nominate commissioners, because that is the change of the entire political cycle. mrjuncker steps down? yes,
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and then come the autumn, all of those people need to be ratified or confirmed in those jobs those people need to be ratified or confirmed in thosejobs by those people need to be ratified or confirmed in those jobs by the european parliament. we are getting towards november and december before the european union is going to want to turn back to the problems created by brexit. that is just the reality. they have their lives, they have their business. they have got to carry on with life as normal. so i think from our point of view, as well, we need to take a step back. everybody needs to take a deep breath and really consider what are the fundamental choices available to us, given the result of the referendum in 2016, given that we run intoa referendum in 2016, given that we run into a huge brick wall three yea rs run into a huge brick wall three years later, what can and should we do now? what are the options? it's better to take longer than two months to consider those. but a long extension would suit your purpose. you think, and i think you have been telling brussels, paris and berlin,
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the more long the extension, the more likely you are to get a second vote ? more likely you are to get a second vote? i have been telling brussels that, i think they can work it out for themselves. the longer this drawn out process goes on, for it to have any sort of legitimacy, political legitimacy at the end of the day, the outcome of the whole thing is to be signed off by the british people themselves. that is my view and i think it is a growing view in the country. i understand andi view in the country. i understand and i thank you for giving that view. let's go back to katya adler in strasbourg. we are getting european reaction already. what is it? absolutely, we have heard from the spokesman of the european council president, he is the man that represents all 27 eu countries in brussels. he has expressed disappointment and regret at the rejection of the brexit deal. but also, it has added that the eu feels
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that, considering it gave all those clarifications yesterday on the backstop and the wider withdrawal agreement, that the eu does not see what else it could do, and that any solution to this impasse needs to come from the uk. that is the eu perspective at this point. they think that the rejection of the deal tonight makes the possibility of a no—deal brexit even more probable, because don't forget even if parliament votes to avoid a no—deal brexit, you are going to need to unite around something, even if there is an extension, if it's a short one or a long one. what is the guarantee that a solution can be found by the end of that? the eu says it will be continuing no deal preparations and that it is open for a request from the united kingdom foran a request from the united kingdom for an extension, for delaying the brexit date. at the eu says it wants to know very clearly from the prime minister for what purpose she would require this extension. just to give you a sense of the mood in the eu, it isa
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you a sense of the mood in the eu, it is a hardening mood. eu leaders wa nt it is a hardening mood. eu leaders want to avoid a no—deal brexit. but they are not willing to do that at any price at all. katya adler in strasbourg, giving the mood in europe as a result of what has happened in westminster. if you have justjoined this bbc one news special on the vote on mrs may's brexit deal, the news is that it went down, and badly. she lost by a majority of 149. not as badly as first time around, when the majority was 230 against her, but by all historic westminster standards, to lose by 149 vote is a huge amount. and it throws into doubt what happens next. the house has now rejected mrs may's deal twice. so, joining me from the houses of parliament is the deputy chair of the conservative party, james cleverly. ja mes the conservative party, james cleverly. james cleverly, the prime minister has lost twice. she has lost by a lot. it is the issue that
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has dominated her administration, but she has lost. why did she not announce her resignation tonight? because the prime minister has made it clear that she regards this as her professional duty, to deliver the brexit that people voted for in 2016. she inherited thisjob. it was not a task of her choosing, but she has embraced it and she is going to work to deliver that. the statements she made in house made it clear that she made in house made it clear that she is committed to honouring the referendum result. if it were easy, it would be sorted out by now. it was never going to be easy and she has continued to do the right thing. could you tell our viewers when there has been a time in british politics when a prime minister has lost on such a crucial vote, by so much, twice, and not resigned? we have not been through a situation, andrew, where we have been extricating ourselves from the
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european union. these are unprecedented times. the 40 or so yea rs unprecedented times. the 40 or so years when we have been a member of the european union has meant that there have been changes that i have not had to work through in my professional life, or i suspect even in yours. judging things on past norms is no longer the case. the prime minister has made it clear she feels she has a duty to deliver what the british people voted for, and thatis the british people voted for, and that is what she is working on. yes, but it may be that she hasn't got control of this any more. tomorrow there is going to be a vote on leaving without a deal. that is going to be a free vote on the conservative side, so it almost certainly will not get through. she is then going to be forced, probably, to ask for an extension to the brexit process by parliament, who will tell her to do this. she may want to deliver, as you say, but is it not the case that she is losing control of this process, both to parliament and to the european
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union? the points you have made in terms of the process are quite possibly going to play out in that way. that has more to do with parliamentary maths than the work she has been doing as prime minister. she has been relentlessly focused on delivering... it is parliamentary maths, mr cleverly, that makes as a democracy. we elect a commons and they vote? yes, and changing the leader would not make a single iota of difference to the parliamentary maths. the prime minister is having to negotiate a very difficult course to the unique set of circumstances that we are being presented with. she is doing so with a degree of robustness and resilience that i think i and a lot of my constituents, indeed a lot of people around the country, admire massively. that has been reflected in conversations that i have when i am on the doorsteps. and a total lack of success so far. tell me
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this, if the prime minister was forced to seek an extension to article 50, for how long and to what purpose? well, i am not a fan of seeking an extension. we have literally just come from seeking an extension. we have literallyjust come from the vote, soi literallyjust come from the vote, so i have not had a chance to discuss with the whips office or the tea m discuss with the whips office or the team at number 10 about what that extension might look like. indeed, the emotion that we put forward, it would be amendable, so it might come out through the amendment. from my personal view, i think the position of the eu is clear. they have said they are not keen on the idea of an extension, especially if there is no explicit purpose to that extension. my explicit purpose to that extension. my view is a long—standing brexiteer is that the best thing we could do now is provide the certainty that business has been screaming out for, by leaving, in good order, on the data that has been put in the public domain through the article 50 vote, and then get on with the trade
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negotiations that we all want to focus on. so you are going to vote for no deal tomorrow?” focus on. so you are going to vote for no deal tomorrow? i am going to vote in accordance with what i have been saying for the last couple of yea rs. been saying for the last couple of years. are you going to vote will no deal or aren't you? i probably will, not because that is my desired option, my desired option is the deal that ijust option, my desired option is the deal that i just voted for. option, my desired option is the deal that ijust voted for.” understand that, but you lost by 149 votes. all right, thanks forjoining us. joining me now is the chair of the european research group, the conservative mpjacob rees—mogg, and chuka umunna of the independent group who, until recently, was a labour mp. so, jacob rees—mogg, you had brexit within your grasp tonight, it was two weeks away and you threw it away? the problem with the deal is that it didn't deliver on the commitment to leave the european union cleanly, and the backstop would have kept us in the customs union and de facto in the single market. so, the default position
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remains, as the prime minister pointed out, that we leave on the 29th of march. that will have to be changed? it would have to be changed by law, and the law is not easy to change. it could be done by a statutory instrument. the commons will not left the country leave or no deal, you must acknowledge that? i don't, because the house of commons voted twice for bills that mean that we leave on the 29th of march, the article 50 act, and the withdrawal act. the withdrawal act specifically mentioned that. the only way of changing the date is for an extension to be granted by the eu. what purpose would not serve? what is going to be asked for? but if you get an indefinite extension, it could be six months, two years, a lot of things can happen in that time, brexit may never happen. historians may look back on this as the night you lost brexit. the point
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you make is a fair and important one. there is certainly a consideration on how people voted. i think the answer to that is that the moral authority of 17.4 million people who voted to leave means that very few people are standing up and saying they want to reverse brexit. they are calling for a second referendum, they are calling for delay. but very few politicians are brave enough to go out and say they wa nt to brave enough to go out and say they want to overturn a referendum result. so i think that moral authority is very powerful and that many people who actually supported remain have accepted the result, including members of parliament, and are willing to see us leave. chuka umunna wants to reverse the referendum. do you think what happened tonight improves your chances of a second referendum? the jury chances of a second referendum? the jury is out on that, but with gridlock in this place, it is hard to see how you resolve the gridlock without referring it back to the
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people. people watching will want the house of commons to make a decision and we are moving along that track. we are moving to vote on jacob's perfect brexit tomorrow which is to leave without a deal and there is not a majority in the house of commons to do that. we will then go to thursday and a vote on whether or not we should extend article 50. there is a majority for that because how else do you avoid no deal? the house of commons has still not given a voice as to where the opinion lies. we should put all the options on the table and have a series of indicative vote so we can find out where the majority of opinion is in the house of commons and then i would like that to be put to the people. do we want a customs union? do we want a customs union and a single market? we have not had all the options are laid out for us to vote on and when we get a majority view, the eu will know what we are dealing with. is there a majority
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for anything in the house of commons? i think there will be. for what? i commons? i think there will be. for what? lam not commons? i think there will be. for what? i am not sure, commons? i think there will be. for what? lam not sure, but commons? i think there will be. for what? i am not sure, but you would have a series of votes and knock out the option that gets the least votes and we would vote again. that might meanl and we would vote again. that might mean i do not get my perfect solution which is to refer it back to the people, but i would be forced to the people, but i would be forced to make a decision on what if i cannot get up, what do we do? you have basically got broken political parties that are divided, no leadership, no direction. we have to make a decision. if the prime minister wants to show leadership, forget keeping the conservative party together and have the house of commons make a decision. one question to you. a lot of people think you and your fellow eurosceptics have tried to call the shots. you have played games with our future, your behaviour has not been commensurate with the gravity
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of the issue before this country. you have left the country down and the result is tonight. we have stuck to the result injune 2016, that we should leave the european union, and the conservative party manifesto, and that no deal is better than a bad deal. we have stuck to what the country asked for. you are not going to get no deal and you are not getting a bad deal, you are getting nowhere. we have a historic disconnection between the house of commons and the electorate. 52% of the voters voted to leave, but probably 500 out of 600 in the house of commons voted to remain. the house of commons is ignoring the majority of the british people.” represent an area where one in four people live in poverty, we have some of the most acute social problems in the country... you want to go and
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destroy... the country... you want to go and destroy. . . 5 the country... you want to go and destroy... 5 million people have been lifted out of poverty by this government. i represent the timekeeper here and we have to leave you both, but thank you forjoining us tonight. to remind you, the prime minister has lost a deal to take britain out of the eu on march the 29th by 149 votes. an important new vote will follow tomorrow night and on thursday night as well. let's speak to the shadowjustice secretary, richard bacon, whojoins us from central lobby. theresa may's deal has gone down twice, the commons will likely rule no deal, what should happen next? our priority is to secure a brexit, labour's brexit deal, we think that is the common sense alternative, but
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we do not want to approach it in a sectarian or partisan way. we encourage the prime minister, rather than negotiating with her own backbenchers, that is what the trip to strasbourg was about, trying to persuade her backbenchers to support her deal, instead of negotiating with her backbenchers, to reach out across the house, use labour's proposed deal and bring people together. we believe are common sense brexit deal is still possible on that basis. given the mess the government has made of negotiations, it is clear an extension to article 50 is required and we want no deal taken off the table as well which would be a disasterfor our economy. will labour table a motion for a second referendum ? will labour table a motion for a second referendum? our priority is labour's brexit deal. it may be the case the public having a say, whether by a general election or another public vote, that may become
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necessary if parliament cannot decide upon anything and if we are staring a new deal brexit in the face. a public vote may become necessary , face. a public vote may become necessary, but our priority is a brexit alternative thatjeremy corbyn in the shadow cabinet in the labour team have been putting forward for some time. we still think that is achievable as a way out of this, that brings people together whether they voted leave or remain in 2016. if a second referendum is still labour policy in some way, why did jeremy corbyn not mention it once in his 25 minute speech to the house of commons today? not once did he mention it. he mentioned a public vote and i was there this morning when he was responding in the chamber. but not in his speech. he did not mention it in his speech. he did not mention it in his speech. he did not mention it in his speech today, his main speech against the prime minister. does he
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really believe in it? he mentioned it yesterday and he has repeated it and it is true it is still an option and it is true it is still an option and it is true it is still an option and it may be necessary. but our priority has always been labour's alternative brexit deal which we believe can bring people together, protect the economy and protect workers permanent rates and protect our environmental obligations as well. if the choice was a second referendum or a labour brexit, what would you choose? our priority is labour's brexit deal and we have been clear on that rate throughout the process and it was clear in our motion as well. we believe it can bring people together. the public vote may become necessary if parliament cannot decide on anything and if we need to stop the disastrous no—deal brexit that would hurtjobs so badly. thank you for joining us. the snp's leader in
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westminster said parliament should vote against a deal which changes nothing for scotland. the events of the last 24 hours change nothing for scotland. this is the same deal, the same prime minister, the same tory party, treating scotland with contempt. it is the same disastrous deal that ignores the people of scotland's overwhelming vote to remain and what costs jobs and hits living standards. that was the leader of the snp in the commons. let's go to our deputy political editorjohn pino, who is in luton. here in luton it is a place where backin here in luton it is a place where back in the referendum people voted 6-4 back in the referendum people voted 6—4 in favour of leaving. since then a lot has happened. when the result came up on the tv here, it caused
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something of a stir, which is something of a stir, which is something of a stir, which is something of an achievement, given that there were important games going on here. scarlet, you have joined us for a chat, what do you think of what has happened tonight? another big defeat. it was a good few years since the referendum vote happened and we have had no decision and nothing is moving forward. how are you feeling? i was interested in politics before but i am now losing the will to live. how do you feel about tonight? i am not surprised, but i am quite positive, i am happy about a new deal brexit. the idea will move on to what happens next and no deal is part of the argument and no deal is part of the argument and there will be a big vote on that ina day and there will be a big vote on that in a day or so. you are not worried about a new deal brexit. let me ask you, dave, a new deal brexit, does that scare you? it is not ideal, but
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this has been put in because our parties will not work together. the government has to work together. for two years they have been arguing with each other and they cannot work together and they should have sorted this out by now. can i ask you about that, that our parties are not working together. these are deep differences of conviction. it is not indecision, it is intractable differences. do you expect them to work together? they need to work together for the good of the country and that is not happening at the moment. they are not working together, that is for sure, is it realistic to expect them to come together now? yes, it is realistic for the will of the people. people expect our mps to come together and do something for the good of the people. it is easy to say, it is ha rd to people. it is easy to say, it is hard to happen and to deliver.
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indeed it is. let's go back to the houses of parliament and vicky young. iam young. i am with nicky morgan who voted for the deal tonight, but another massive defeat. what does this mean for the prime minister's authority? it is very disappointing, we have to see how the next couple of days ago. if parliament starts to dismantle the strategy, that makes her position very difficult and that is a conversation in the cabinet will wa nt to a conversation in the cabinet will want to have with the prime minister, about how long she wants to go on for. you are right, her strategy has been to get her deal through. she wanted to keep no deal scenario on the table and it looks likely that will not happen tomorrow and she did not want to delay brexit and she did not want to delay brexit and all of those things by friday might happen. the prime minister is right, the reason i voted for the agreement tonight is the best way to avoid a no deal is to have a deal. i think the deal, however imperfect,
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is an agreement that provides certainty for businesses, jobs and individuals. i am sorry it has not seen individuals. i am sorry it has not seen support. these things are not over until they are over. we might be having another meaningful vote, but it is all very unpredictable. what do you say to the brexiteer asthma in your party who have campaigned for brexit for decades. they did not think the deal was good enough. it is ironic that people like me who campaigned to remain voted for a deal that gets us a step closer to leaving and they did not vote for it. a lot of people in the country will be wondering why not. thank you very much indeed. two more votes possibly this week and theresa may, very many people i saying her authority was diminished tonight. we are coming to the end of this bbc news special on what has been an historic night in british politics. it was the night the commons
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rejected for a second time theresa may's deal to take us out of the european union, rejected it by a three figure majority for the second time. the prime minister said tomorrow the commons would go on to vote on whether we should leave with no deal. the tory party will have a fever, that means almost certainly the commons will reject leaving on a new deal as well. that means on thursday the commons will probably vote to instruct the prime minister to seek an extension of article 50, beyond march the 29th, when we are meant to leave. it is likely there will be a majority for that and the prime minister will have to go back to brussels to see if she can get an extension. but that is on the eu's terms and to what purpose and for how long we still do not know. we say goodbye to you on that. live
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coverage continues on the bbc news channel and bbc world. we will be back with welcome back to a special coverage of the brexit vote at westminster. news that tonight against the government has been defeated on the brexit deal, this time by 149, less than the 230 she was defeated by in her first vote but by all parliamentary names that is a heavy defeat for the prime minister and a dejected figure on the benches this evening, she said she would now
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press ahead with two votes in the coming days, a vote tomorrow on taking no deal off the table and we are hearing from lobby correspondence that she will vote to do that, to take no deal off the table. then we would presume there would be a vote on thursday which they will vote for, an extension. but frustration already from the eu. we had a statement from donald tusk the president of the open council and he clearly is frustrated, exasperated i would say. he said on the eu side we have done all that is possible to reach agreement. he goes on to say that i no deal and his belief is now significantly increased and interestingly at the end of his statement he talks about the possibility of reddish mps asking for an extension to the deadline for the uk to leave the eu and he says that there would have to bea and he says that there would have to be a credible justification for that and of course that has to be signed off by all 27 member states. sojust a word of warning from him i think that he does not wantjust weeks of
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more of the same. thank you very much. this is a bbc news brexit special. defeat for prime minister theresa may as mps vote down her brexit dealfor a second time. the noes to the left, 391. despite theresa may securing late changes to the agreement with the eu, mps rejected her deal by a majority of 149. i profoundly regret the decision this house has taken tonight. i continue to believe that by far the best outcome is that the united kingdom leaves the european union in an orderly fashion with a deal. the leader of the opposition says the government has been defeated by an enormous majority and that it's time for a general election. the prime minister has run down the
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