hello. it's monday, it's 10 o'clock, i'm victoria derbyshire. how long has theresa may got? after a weekend of rumours that she was going to be ousted, will she offer to stand down in exchange for support for her brexit deal? she's about to hold a meeting of her cabinet, where things may or may not become clearer. we have to think our way through this problem. it's simply not enough to say, we have to deliver on what the voters instructed us to do. that is oui’ voters instructed us to do. that is our democratic duty. will ministers tell mrs may tonight what breaks it down they are prepared to accept? —— what brexit deal they are prepared to accept? has time run out for the pm?

we'll ask these mps from various parties, how are they ever going to agree on a way forward? we will solve it all in the next half hour on this programme. also in an exclusive interview, the sister of the murdered labour mp jo cox says threats to politicians have got worse since her siblings death. remember this message from jo cox's maiden speech? whilst we celebrate our diversity, the thing that surprises me time and time again as i travel around the constituency is that we are far more united and have far more in common than that which divides us. jo's sister kim leadbeater says she thinks that speech has been forgotten — we'll talk to her later. and the former prime minister tony blair tells us exclusively that the police are currently "losing the battle" against knife crime, and the government need to be more proactive in combating the problem. if you're going to defeat something like this, right from the very top of government, you've got to have an absolute focus, total determination, and do whatever it takes

to get the problem solved. hello. welcome to the programme. we're live until 11 this morning. today's question is this: do you want theresa may to go? or at least announce when she's going? and if so, why? what difference would that make? the sun says "theresa may must announce today that she will stand down as soon as her brexit deal is approved and britain is out of the eu". do you agree? use the hashtag victoria live if you re emailing and are happy for us to contact you ? and want to take part in the programme — please include your phone number in your message. first, carrie gracie has the news. theresa may is updating her cabinet this morning on her brexit strategy after a weekend in which senior

ministers denied reports of a plot to oust her. the prime minister is battling to retain control of the brexit process, with mps preparing to take it out of the government's hands. mrs may met pro—brexit tories yesterday, to assess if there's enough support to bring her withdrawal agreement back for a third vote. this was the work and pensions secretary amber rudd this morning: ijust want to urge iain duncan smith and others to help us make sure that we get the withdrawal agreement through this week, so we end the chaos and try to get back to a stable situation and leave the european union. i'm going to be backing their withdrawal agreement and working with the prime minister and other ministers to make sure that we do that. a two year investigation into donald trump's election as us president has cleared his campaign team of collusion with russia. the report, seen as a significant boost for the president, said multiple offers of russian help forthe trump campaign were not taken up. but it draws no conclusion as to whether or not mr trump committed a crime by obstructing justice.

police are currently "losing the battle" against knife crime, former prime minister tony blair has told this programme. he urged current prime minister theresa may to hold a cobra emergency committee meeting and act with a determination "to do whatever it takes". figures show the number of crimes related to knives and other offensive weapons reached a nine—year high in 2018. and we'll have that full exclusive film on knife crime and stop and search from our reporter noel phillipsjust after this summary. prison officers at a jail in dorset have discovered that attempts have been made to smuggle in drugs and mobile phones by putting them inside dead rats. there are graphic images coming up, so you might want to look away now. three rodents stuffed with contraband were found after being thrown over the fence at guys marsh prison. the prison service said that it was the first recorded instance of rats being used in that way. it said it was investigating.

apple is widely expected to unveil its latest product today, believed to be a subscription tv and news service. it's understood it wants to take on the likes of netflix and amazon prime. with iphone sales slowing globally, the technology giant needs to make more money from its billions of users around the world. those are the stories. let's go back now to victoria. thanks for your tweets. martin on twitter says: "theresa may should step down, and the current options should be put out to the people to vote on". butjosephine has tweeted to say: ‘we still want her as our prime minister. we have to come out from eu as soon as possible". and bob on twitter thinks we need to go one step further, saying: "the whole of parliament should stand down as they are a disgrace. no one person is responsible." it's going to be another mad week —

and who knows where it will end. the prime minister now has until april 12th to get her deal through parliament, or come up with a new plan. if neither of these things happen, we will be leaving the eu with no deal. mps will this evening vote on a plan, an amendment which if passed would allow parliament to seize control of the brexit process from the government. so — where are we at? well, yesterday afternoon theresa may invited fellow conservatives who hate her deal to her country estate chequers to try and talk them round. borisjohnson was there — he resigned as foreign secretary, remember. so were two former brexit secretaries from mrs may s government — david davis and dominic raab. apart from the pm, everyone there was a man, it would seem. so what might happen this week? well theresa may is currently meeting her cabinet this morning to outline her strategy. she s giving a statement to parliament later today about the outcome of the eu emergency summit last week, although that already feels like weeks ago. she could bring forward another so—called meaningful vote on her brexit deal some time this week, maybe next week, who knows. remember, she still needs to convince 75 more mps to vote

for her deal if she s going to get it through. and that s assuming that every mp that voted for it last time will still vote for it this time, which is farfrom certain. so its a huge task. there is also pressure for parliament to hold a series of so called indicative votes , to see if a majority of mps can agree on a brexit strategy. the options mps would vote on would include a softer form of brexit where we stay in the single market and the customs union, a second referendum, or cancelling brexit altogether. meanwhile, the pressure on the prime minister gets greater — can she really survive another defeat for her deal in parliament? some think the only way she can get it to pass is if she sets a departure date and this morning the sun newspaper says that theresa may has shown courage but that it is now time for her to resign. over the weekend, rumours swirled that two cabinet ministers were being lined up as potential

caretaker prime ministers — david lidington and michael gove. both have denied any involvement in plots to force the prime minister to go. we can speak now to a range of mps representing the range of opinion across the house of commons and we're going to try and see if we get any one of them to copromise in order to find a way forward. glyn davies is a conservative mp. he's in his constituency in shrewsbury. he s loyal to mrs may and has voted to support her brexit withdrawal agreement on the two occasions it's been put to the house of commons. nigel evans is a conservative who is a member of the backbench group of eurosceptic tory mps known as the erg. although he wasn't invited to chequers yesterday, he originally voted against mrs may's deal. he then switched to supporting it at the second vote, but now thinks theresa may should step down. he's in his consituency of ribble valley. marcus fyshe is also a member of that group, but he has voted against may's deal both times.

he admits that the pm has been disappointing but wants her to stay on. peter kyle is a labour mp. he voted against mrs may s deal, but now says that mps should back it on condition that its put to a second referendum. lucy powell is a labour mp. she's in manchester this morning. she voted against the pm s deal because she wants a different, softer kind of brexit. wes streeting is a labour mp, voted against may s deal and now backs a second referendum. and joanna cherry is from the snp. she wants to cancel brexit, or at the very least, to have a second referendum. could i ask you to poitely not to make speeches because there are seven of you and i want to give each of you a decent crack of the whip. first of all, starting with the people in the studio, how would you describe the situation this country finds itself in today? the fact that you gave the longest introduction i have ever heard you give shows how complex where we are is. my feeling

is that we have moved to extremes because we have had such poor leadership at the centre, so we have millions of people wanting to revoke article 50. at the other extreme, we have people who want to leave with no deal. what the country really wa nts no deal. what the country really wants is what politics needs, which is for the grown—ups to get a grip on this and show a solid way out of the madness. the situation that the country finds itself in, how would you describe it as might be more concise than peter. i think it is unprecedented and not surprisingly, with the divided country, we also have a deeply divided parliament. the mood amongst colleagues from both sides of the house of commons, leave and remain, there is a genuine desire now to find a way through the deadlock and that is our responsibility. but the prime minister had to set parliament free to do that. we are in a mess and it is because the government has failed. they have made a mess of handling the post—brexit referendum

situation. theresa may failed to build consensus from the outset and it is now the role of parliament to ta ke it is now the role of parliament to take over from the government and try and build consensus going forward. lucy powell? iwould try and build consensus going forward. lucy powell? i would agree with what peter said, but i would add that we are in a dangerous situation. there are decisions being made now by some of the big car manufacturers and other businesses across the country that if we don't get this right in the next couple of weeks, we could see thousands of high skilled jobs going in the next few months. so it is a dangerous situation. marcus? the country is crying out for strong leadership that understands how to leave the european union and open up to a free floor for parliament to continue having the same arguments about impractical solutions just isn't the way forward. nigel evans? ithink it's a critical situation. that is

such a bad line, nigel, i have to interrupt you because we missed the beginning. i promise we will call you back and saw that. glyn davies? the politics of our country are quite chaotic at the moment. it's a hugely difficult issue, the most difficult issue i have had to face. there is a need for compromise. the withdrawal agreement is a compromise ina withdrawal agreement is a compromise in a sense. it is one that i have supported and i still think it's the only way we can deliver on the promise we made to leave the european union and the result of the referendum, and i hope it can come back and have support. nigel evans, let's try your line again. it is rural lancashire, victoria, which you know well! i think it's a critical situation and democracy needs support now. if we fail to deliver what the people voted for, i

have seen real anger on the streets of the ribble valley this weekend. people just want us to get on with delivering what the people voted for in the general election of 2017. both labour and conservative said we would deliver for them. dangerous, critical, democracy on life support. a mess. what is the way forward? well, with such a state of crisis now, the way forward is to revoke article 50 and stay in the european union. but i recognised that the english and the welsh voted to leave, unlike the scots, who voted to remain by a majority, and people in northern ireland. the safest way to achieve that is by holding a second referendum to put the choice back to the people. when circumstances change, people should get a second chance to vote. what is promised in 2016 has proved undeliverable. that is why we are in the mess we are in. do you mean put mrs may's deal to the people?

parliament is going to look at that this week. what the snp have been clear about is that remain must be on the ballot paper. nigel evans, it's because of responses like that from joanna terry that you say democracy is in a life—support scenario. absolutely. it is always interesting to find out what parliament is thinking. three quarters of the mp5 parliament is thinking. three quarters of the mps in parliament voted to remain. it was the 17.4 million that voted to leave. so theresa may has to at least keep to the tenets of what people voted for, which is to control immigration, not paid billions into the eu, make our owi'i paid billions into the eu, make our own laws and be able to do free trade deals. that is the challenge for the british parliament, and to provide that. to go down the route ofa provide that. to go down the route of a customs union frankly prevents us of a customs union frankly prevents us from doing lots of that. it is brexit in name only. and people will

know what is happening. but you want theresa may to step down. know what is happening. but you want theresa may to step downlj know what is happening. but you want theresa may to step down. i want her to set out the timetable for that because after this deal gets through, we then go to the next stage, which the future trading relationship with the european union. and it's then time for theresa to step aside for a new leader to come forward with a fresh authority of being not just correlated, as theresa was, but backed by the membership. then we can make progress. after this deal gets through, you said. who thinks it will be third time lucky? let me ask our other guests. who thinks theresa may will get her deal passed on the third time? we spent two yea rs on the third time? we spent two years thinking that if everyone does the same thing, a different outcome will emerge. it won't. if she brings

that they back without something substantial changing, we will go round the block one more time. i don't think our politics can stand more of this. people have been talking about the anger in the streets. it is all hinting at some kind of civil unrest. i think that underestimates the intellect and of oui’ underestimates the intellect and of our population. i think the public understand that we are in a bind. it isa understand that we are in a bind. it is a very complex situation that we are facing, and theyjust want a creative and grown—up way out of the mess. they don't think there is a simple solution. so the idea that if something draconian doesn't happen rapidly, that this is in honouring the spirit of the 2016 referendum, i don't buy that. the country know it's a difficult challenge. we need to rise up to that challenge and show that we have a creative solution. chris on twitter says, why should an atrocious deal negotiated with incompetency pass before the worst by minister in anyone's living memory leaves? why should the party who caused this mess be allowed to

effectively coro nate who caused this mess be allowed to effectively coronate our next pm without an election? what do you say, marcus? we have made recommendations for how to make the withdrawal agreement acceptable, but the government has not pursued those. it has never even put them on the table with the eu, so we are in a situation where we just need to leave now and continue to negotiate ina leave now and continue to negotiate in a constructive mannerfrom outside. the eu will have to think about what arrangements it will have on its borders. that is where the work we have done, the work that our civil servants on both sides of the channel have been doing, will come into play. so that is leave with no deal, don't even bother with meaningful vote three? deal, don't even bother with meaningful vote three ?|j deal, don't even bother with meaningful vote three? i don't think it will pass and i don't think it should pass because it would prejudice all future negotiations and leave us trapped in a customs union model permanently where we can't make our own rules. if they

conservative government took this country out of the eu with no deal went theresa may has said it would be disastrous, as many in her cabinet have said, what would that do for the reputation of the conservative party and the government? in the country? well, there are different views on that within the conservative party. i think no deal is a mistake. they will not be as bad as is being portrayed, but it would be a mistake. we know we are facing a chaotic position in parliament. setting personal red lines, i don't think, is a grown—up way to go forward. but everybody is doing it. everybody says, lets compromise, but it is not the individual that is going to compromise, it is everyone else. we have all agreed to compromise. the whole principle of the wilson amendment i have been working on is compromise. i am ideologically opposed to this deal,

but it has been signed off by the european union and the british government. it is parliament that has a problem with it. so our proposition that we will allow the deal to pass through parliament by withholding consent until the public have had their voice in a public confirmatory ballot which is also binding on parliament. do you want to mrs may's deal or do you want to remain? her deal is still the deal. if we move to another deal, it has to be negotiated and brought back to parliament. i don't think our country can withstand another two years of negotiations and then coming back to parliament and going through the whole process again of taking it to pieces. so i am willing to really compromise. and it is a genuine compromise. because you don't want mrs may's deal. exactly, but i would allow the public to be the final of whether it is good enough for the country. would you agree? the problem with this argument about compromise is that the risk is that parliament ends up

somewhere in the middle with a sort of split the difference approach. it is all very well trying to find a political fix that meets the needs of our constituencies or parties, but what about the country? all of those promises that were made in 2016 in the referendum have not been delivered. whichever deal we land on, whether it's the prime minister's deal or alternatives that collea g u es minister's deal or alternatives that colleagues have come up with, it doesn't look like what people were promised. there is a democratic principle here which is about consent. pete's proposal would break the deadlock in parliament. that is important. the other important principle is that however we move forward , principle is that however we move forward, the people should decide. let me put that back to nigel evans. what would be undemocratic about what peter has just described? what would be undemocratic about what peter hasjust described? what is not democratic is that we are not delivering what the people voted for the referendum. we all know that anybody who has been backing either anybody who has been backing either a second referendum is basically

pushing towards trying to overturn the results of the first referendum. but i'm going to take you back to what would be undemocratic about giving the people the option of mrs may's deal or remaining, what is undemocratic about that? because you have a deal which parliament doesn't particularly like. peter and his friends who back remain want that option which parliament has rejected, versus remaining in the european union, which the people have rejected. so peter is not prepared to take remain off the ballot paper, he wants it back on. the people have already rejected that, so that is not much of a compromise. lucy powell, what do you think? of the second referendum? of this idea that mrs may's deal would pass as long as it was put back to

the people and they would vote on whether they wanted to go ahead with it or remain in the eu. there is some merit to that argument, and i have said that the peter and wes before. but what i am proposing is a different version of what leave looks like. the issue is putting a discredited arrangement that doesn't address the future relationship to the public. but that is a compromise i would support. there is a separate question to that, which is that as parliament, we have to resolve what oui’ parliament, we have to resolve what our future relationship with the eu is going to look like, what leaving the eu really means. that is what my proposal of common market 2.0 is hoping to address. i am a long

remainer. i am hoping to address. i am a long remainer. iam pro—european hoping to address. i am a long remainer. i am pro—european and used to argue against the sort of norway model for many years on the airwaves. but i have come to the view that that is the thought of leaving of the eu, we would be leaving of the eu, we would be leaving all the political institutions of the eu, but we would retain the strong economic close relationship, which is what i think people thought they were being offered with the referendum. common market 2.0, norway plus. that effectively means a softer brexit. that means it is not brexit at all to many people. let me read this text. theresa may is trying her best to make sure she respects the country's choice. stop the witch—hunt. what do you say to that? there is no point blaming this on one person. it's a failure of the tory party as a whole. there is no doubt the prime minister is at fault for having failed to try to build

consensus for having failed to try to build consensus from the beginning. there are four nations in the uk. two of them voted to remain and overall, them voted to remain and overall, the majority for leave was small. she should have reached out from the beginning to all four nations of the uk, the devolved governments, and other political parties represented the westminster parliament to build consensus. but is it not a failure of someone like yourself as well, because you just want to stop it? my mandate is to stop brexit. my constituents in edinburgh south west voted 72% to remain. scotland is a whole voted 62% to remain. this deal theresa may's would cause losses of jobs in scotland and reduction of the size of the scottish economy, as it would do across the uk. 0f the size of the scottish economy, as it would do across the uk. of course lam not it would do across the uk. of course i am not going to vote for that. i would be mad to do so and my constituents wouldn't be happy with me. but it's not fair to blame the

opposition parties. people like peter have worked closely with people from other parties including myself to find way forward that we can get behind. the best way is to put the decision back to the people. if we reach a stage of utter paralysis, we will have no choice but to revoke article 50 to prevent an economic disaster for the whole of the uk. incidentally, the only reason we have the option of revoking article 50 is because myself, another snp politician, two scottish greens and two scottish labour politicians, fought the government all the way to the court ofjustice to government all the way to the court of justice to establish government all the way to the court ofjustice to establish it was possible to unilaterally revoke article 50. that is an example of good cross party working. marcus, how worried are you about that prospect or of the prospect of a softer brexit? the customs union and single market are the two fundamental pillars of what the european union is, and people voted to leave it. so i trust in the people of the uk. their mind hasn't changed. they want to leave and it

is politicians‘ duty, despite the majority of them in parliament having voted for remain, to deliver on that. i don‘t think people will be forgiving of those who are not prepared to do the right thing and leave on time and negotiate in a constructive manner. would you back mrs may‘s deal at the third time of asking if sheen had announced her departure? it would need to change significantly. we would need to be confident that we would understand what the deal entailed. so her departing would make no difference? it takes a very able leader to do the difficult things that would be required to then stand up to what would be our international law obligations. i am not clear, sorry. would you vote for her deal on the third time of asking if she announced publicly her departure? third time of asking if she announced publicly her departure ?|j

don‘t think i would at this point. tonight, you may all get the chance to vote on whether us mps want take control of commons business and introduce this series of votes potentially on wednesday to find out where there might be a majority in parliament, what sort of deal there might bea parliament, what sort of deal there might be a majority for. nigel eva ns, might be a majority for. nigel evans, do you want mps to take control of this? no, the people took control. we will stick with that.|j control. we will stick with that.” don't either. the people took control. we are going to have to, aren‘t we? but you asserted something after i had spoken and didn‘t give me a chance to respond. mark is to advocate in the run—up to the referendum that we could be a country like norway. so the idea that leaving the eu and becoming

pa rt that leaving the eu and becoming part of esther is not leaving the eu is just incorrect. that might becoming part of esta. markers? parliament has shown that it doesn‘t understand this. the difference between me and lucy is that i investigated the ea option and it doesn‘t work. she doesn‘t understand that. yes, in the absence of government, parliament has to assert itself. yes, the mps are the representatives of the same people who voted in the referendum. it is ridiculous to say that parliament shouldn't take control. and we had a general election since the referendum as well. this series of votes, we a re referendum as well. this series of votes, we are briefly going to go through the options. 0bviously, votes, we are briefly going to go through the options. obviously, this is completely nonscientific. you do not represent the 650 mps in parliament. it is going to have to be yes or no, all of you. i know it

is tempting to add further words, but time is upon us. of course i understand that the order in which these votes are given is crucial. i have just picked this order at random, so don‘t blame me. a second referendum, yes or no? it's not going to work like that. we can vote for more than one thing. 0k. going to work like that. we can vote for more than one thing. ok. i would vote for a second referendum and i would vote for common market 2.0, which is not customs union membership. this is why all of this is very difficult. a confirmatory referendum, which is what i am suggesting, is a process for ending the proposition and it will be on the proposition and it will be on the ballot paper in parliament the day after tomorrow, probably, with a whole set of policy solutions like the norway option, like a soft brexit, like a customs arrangement, and then suddenly a referendum in

the middle of it is a different proposition to the others. we have to figure these things out. mps will only get 24 hours to understand, and these are really difficult issues, very technical feature relationships between britain and the eu. brexit has been unfolding now for 1000 days and we are being consulted on what the way forward is three days before we technically leave the eu. this is how distorted and dysfunctional the whole relationship and the whole unfolding of brexit has been led by government. so there is little point in me going through these other options in the manner in which i was intending, would you agree? i was doing my best. i will go around all of you. wes streeting, your preferred option? i think about on whichever option parliament agrees

on, and! whichever option parliament agrees on, and i think without that whatever we do land on will look so different to what people were promised in the referendum... majority for what peter kyle is suggesting... i think we are in real trouble because there is no majority for may‘s deal. trouble because there is no majority for may's deal. no majority for anything... element that is the risk and we are days from crashing out with no deal —— and we are days from crashing out with no deal -- yes, that is the risk. these things will be truncated into a short discussion on wednesday, and they should have been discussed two years ago. lucy's solution, for example, sounds great but doesn't solve the irish border problem because it doesn't involve a customs union. these things need to be teased out and discussed in detail, not shoved into an afternoon in westminster to try to save the prime minister's blushes. we are looking at this day, week, the next 24 hours. the decisions we are making will impact our country and future generations for 30, 40, 50 years. we cannot rush this. we

cannot be bounced into something, because future generations will not forgive us if we rush this through to solve a problem. if there is any mp... but three years ago we voted to leave, it has not been a rush. we are being rushed into it at the summit. mps did not make theresa may call a general election in the middle of article 50 problem. we didn't get us to where we are now but if we are bounced into a decision right now future generations... if mps are making decisions based on whether theresa may will be an mp or prime minister for the next week or not, then how will future generations ever forgive the mp5 making decisions based on that? it is not in the best interests of our country, economically and socially. let me ask ourmps in economically and socially. let me ask our mps in the constituencies. briefly, your preferred option?” ask our mps in the constituencies. briefly, your preferred option? i am working very hard to encourage people to support the withdrawal agreement. i‘m hoping it will come back. mainly because it is probably the only way we can be certain we

will fulfil the referendum request to parliament. lucy? i hope that anything that keeps us with close economic relations with the eu, and the prime minister's deal... and peter wilson, that amendment, the prime minister's deal... and peterwilson, that amendment, it also helps to that. i would vote for anything that in that whole rack of things... and i think the best way of us leaving the eu and retaining sovereignty, it is common market segment, but if given a list i will look for different things to break the deadlock. —— common market segment. we are told the european union only ever come to a compromise at the last minute, therefore i will support leaving on wto terms, then i believe they will offer the compromise on the backstop which will allow her deal to go through. i will allow her deal to go through. i will support both of those options.

marcus fysh? i will support what nigeljust said but we have already voted on these options like the customs union and the single market several times before and read rejected them, rejected a second referendum, and we just need to leather on the first and not having a withdrawal amendment is better than signing up to a dreadful withdrawal agreement that keeps us shackled forever. i know many of our viewers will want to comment on that and other things you said this morning. i‘m sorry, my list of doubts didn‘t quite work. we appreciate all of you giving your time this morning, and hopefully that has shed some light on the confusion over the next 48 hours which will unfold. thank you, all of you. still to come... police are "fighting a losing battle against knife crime" — that‘s the warning from former prime minister tony blair. speaking exclusively to this programme, he‘s urging theresa may to tackle it urgently. and the sister of the murdered mpjo cox says threats

to politicians have got worse since her sister‘s death. we will talk to kim leadbeater later. former prime minister tony blair has exclusively told this programme that the police are "losing the battle" against knife crime. he has urged theresa may to hold a meeting of her emergency council, cobra, the group which meets to discuss urgent and high—priority issues, and act with a determination "to do whatever it takes". mr blair defends stop and search, saying it‘s a vital tool to reduce violent crime. but figures show if you‘re black you are more than eight times more likely to be stopped and searched than white people. and one former senior commander with the metropolitan police has told this programme that the stop—and—search is being used in a way that is counterproductive. he says it could damage community relations and even lead to riots. 0ur reporter noel phillips has this exclusive film.

two people were fatally stabbed in separate incidents across the capital over the weekend. in west london, where a 17—year—old boy was stabbed to death, whe area was placed under section 60 police powers, allowing officers to stop and search anyone without reasonable suspicion. this footage filmed just weeks ago shows a group of teenagers running through a north london shopping centre with knives. but will increasing stop and search really helped to tackle knife crime? the police have got to have the stop and search powers. of course, you‘ve got to do this in a culturally sensitive way, but remember the communities that are most affected by these crimes are the communities that will be sensitive to these questions. stop and search, one of the most controversial tactics used by police, has long been a centre of controversy. absolutely very concerned that, you know, there are officers who don't have the skill or the experience to do stop and search properly. you know, they don't have the street craft to do stop and search properly, and that's my concern.

when they're predominately targeting us black people, what is it doing? all it's doing isjust making us aggravated, making us angry and making us distrust the police in general where they're targeting us. young black men like ahmed are nine times more likely to be stopped and searched by the police. if it's not knife crime, it's for drugs. if it's not drugs, it's anti—social behaviour. it's always something. like, every other time, it's coming up with something, something, something. so that‘s the way it is. it‘s just excuses, really. ahmed, who moved from somalia as a toddler, has grown up in the wood green area of north london, where there have been at least one killing and many stabbings so far this year. a few hours ago, straight away, jumped out of the car, put me in handcuffs, telling me i'm getting restrained for — i'm getting detained for a search. they search me, they find nothing, but what they gave me is this, and said it was because of drugs. just hours before we started filming

with ahmed, he was detained by police in a nearby street. you don't need that. you don't. am i getting stopped? why am i getting stopped? after being searched, he was given this form with reasons search as to why he was stopped. but he says, despite turning his life around after serving a short jail term for a violent offence, he continues to be harassed by the police. i'm not going to say i've not done things in the past, but that's where you learn from mistakes. the police say they have a job to keep people in the capital safe. knife crime is on the increase. there‘s a lot of violent crime in this area. what have you got to worry about if you‘ve got nothing to hide? like, you're putting us on the outside, on the roads, putting us in handcuffs like we've committed an offence, for a search. if i don't get stopped today, i guarantee it tomorrow, or the day after that. but in a week, three

times in a week, minimum, you'll get stopped. the police can stop and search people under many laws — section 60 of the criminaljustice and public order act, section one of the police criminal and evidence act and the misuse of drugs act. there are officers who don't have the skill and experience to do this properly. you know, they don't have the street craft to do stop and search properly, and that's my concern. you know, with the languages, give police the powers, get the police officers out there doing stop and search. victor 0lisa is a former metropolitan police commander. before he retired two years ago, he was in charge of the force‘s stop and search unit. what worries you about stop and search? we run a real risk of drifting back to days where supervisors were asking officers to do stop and search as a means of productivity, as a means of activity on the street. so, "prove to me that you've be doing something on the street." "0h, sarge, i did five stop and search, you know, during my eight—hour tour of duty." if you're doing it that way then,

more often than not, you probably don't have the grounds, you probably don't have the skills to be able to do it properly, you create tension in terms of the way you're doing stop and search, you alienate young people. as someone who has been stopped and searched on several occasions, just like these two teenagers who were filmed being detained by the police, i know it can be a frightening experience. but is stop and search the solution to tackling the violence on our streets? the police have got to have the stop and search powers. of course, you‘ve got to do this in a culturally sensitive way, but remember the communities that are most affected by these crimes are the communities that will be sensitive to these questions. and what you‘ve got to be careful of is talking to people who are kind of political activists who will tell you these powers aren‘t necessary. during his time in office, the former prime minister, tony blair, reduced overall violent crime levels across the country. ditty that he

well, at the moment, it looks like the police are losing the battle. but, you know, these are battles that can be won but they start from a very simple principle, which is that if you‘re going to defeat something like this, right from the very top of government, you‘ve got to have an absolute focus, total determination, and do whatever it takes to get the problem solved. in 2007, a lot of people supported comments that you made. you said, "violence can‘t be stopped by pretending it is not young black kids doing it." do you still stand by that? you can‘t ignore the reality. start with the reality. the reality doesn‘t lead you to discriminate. the realityjust do allows you to deal with the reality. and that reality is the victims and perpetrators of knife and violent crime are predominantly young black men. yeah, and if they are, if that‘s the case, you‘re not going to deal with it better by pretending it‘s something other than it is. that‘s not... telling it like it is is not discriminatory. actually, failing to deal with it because it‘s located, for example, in the black community — that‘s discriminatory.

the metropolitan police say knife crime disproportionately affects black boys and men. last year, 62% of homicide victims were of african caribbean heritage, all under the age of 25. yes, it is young people that's stabbing each other — they are correct about that. but, yeah, predominately when you're saying it'sjust black, that's not true. some police forces across the country are now using section 60 powers in areas where violence has happened. it allows officers to search anyone without even suspecting them of committing a crime. after three fatal stabbings within days of each otherjust last month, police in birmingham carried out 408 searches in the city and made 24 arrests. in preston, the chief constable authorised the power in response to a stabbing. during a 24—hour period, 43 people were searched but no arrests were made. and in the capital there were more

than 7,000 searches under section 60 last year. section 60 can become the panacea for a problem that it really isn't going to solve without, in my view, at this stage of using it, really due thought to the consequences of actually the damage it can do to police—public relations. the problems with stop and search have been well documented. an inquiry into the 1981 brixton riots blamed the disproportionate use of the policing power on young black men. look, we've had it before in history. you know, we go back to the early '805 and lambeth. mass use of stop and search, complete displeasure of communities. when you say displeasure, we‘re talking about people taking to the streets. it's notjust taking the streets — we're talking about public disturbance, talking

about people rioting. the metropolitan police say stop and search is an essential policing tool. they continue to work with the home office to tackle violent crime. do you understand that the police want to keep people safe? yes. obviously they've got jobs to do, like, keep the public safe. i understand. but using it excessively, that's about abusing the power now. here with us now is ken hinds — he has been stopped and searched more than 100 times by police. he is also a youth worker and a police adviser on stop—and—search. we also have chris hobbs — a met officer for 32 years who links rise in violence to lack of stop and search. ken hinds, do you agree with blair that they should come together using stop and search to tackle this?” don't. i believe they should join up

with communities doing work on the ground, joined up thinking and call ita ground, joined up thinking and call it a public health approach. i don't see what cobra and these people and ivory towers will know that what is happening on the ground. it is the people on the ground who can see what can be done to reduce the violence. chris hobbs, should cobra report together to meet?” violence. chris hobbs, should cobra report together to meet? i don't think i would agree with ken on that, but i do agree that people in cobra will be out of touch with what is going on the streets and you need people with street experience, in terms of youth culture and the problem is that is creating at the moment. i agree that cobra isn‘t the answer. ken, do you agree with tony blair that society shouldn‘t shy away from the fact that victims of knife crime are often black men, as are the perpetrators?” knife crime are often black men, as are the perpetrators? i would say if thatis are the perpetrators? i would say if that is the issue then what they need to do it actually work with key people within that community to help resolve this issue. it doesn't help when we get officers from the terror

support group coming in. two thirds of stop and searches in aaron gate are done by terror officers —— counterterror officers who don't understand the sensitivity they —— in haringey. de agree that some police officers don‘t have the skills and street craft to carry out stop and search properly? element i think that is true to a certain extent, but what we are facing“ think that is true to a certain extent, but what we are facing is a crisis -- extent, but what we are facing is a crisis —— yes, i think that is true. every victim of a fatal stabbing and shooting on our street, the fact is, would be alive today if the perpetrator had been intercepted and stopped and searched by police before the encounter with the victim. that is unfortunately a fa ct. victim. that is unfortunately a fact. there are huge issues, and i think ken might agree with community policing, which has really suffered because of government cuts. in an ideal world we would have community police out there who would be liaising and talking to local people, and forming a relationship

with them, then stop and search would be less problematic. but at the moment we have an emergency situation and we are taking, or the met are taking something like 300 knives, guns and other lethal weapons off the streets every month. i have some figures from the met until march 2018, the latest one is about stop and search and how often they lead to arrest. 19% of stop and search conducted under that act led to an arrest, and 10% carried out under the section 60 emergency powers where the police don‘t need reasonable suspicion led to arrest. 19%, 10%. that would suggest stop and search is not that effective? that is one way of looking at it, but as i said if you take 300 weapons off the street, you could say, yes, it is effective. part of section 60, theoretically, is the deterrent effect. word soon gets around there is a section 60 in

force, and therefore people may hesitate before they start to carry weapons. but the carrying weapons really is something we have to stop and the terror. i‘m sure ken will ee, and the terror. i‘m sure ken will agree, that in the long term there has to be other solutions. we can‘t arrest and stop and search our way out of this problem. do you support section 60, this emergency power, where an officer does not need reasonable suspicion before stopping somebody? there is a place for section 60, but not the overuse of it. as was alluded to, if the office rs it. as was alluded to, if the officers are being personal with their interaction... it leaves that person who was engaged to be scarred by their experience, and they can only get the knives and guns from the intelligence in that community. in this case, the black community, but it is not rocket science that you need to go and speak to that black community, find out who the movers and shakers are common to have a positive outcome on the

violence. thank you both very much, ken hinds and chris hobbs, thank you very much. you are very welcome to get in touch using the hashtag victoria live. you can get in touch on facebook and what‘sapp as well. —— whatsapp. the sister of the murdered mpjo cox says threats to politicians have got worse since her sibling‘s death. jo cox was the labour mp for batley and spen. she was shot and stabbed in her constituency by a far right extremist in the run—up to the eu referemdum in 2016. her killer shouted, "this is for britain" and "britain first" as he attacked her. this wasjo cox‘s maiden speech in parlaiment. batley and spen is a gathering of typically independent, no—nonsense, proud yorkshire towns and villages. our communities have been deeply enhanced by immigration. be it irish catholics across the constituency or muslims from indian gujarat or pakistan, principally from kashmir.

and whilst we celebrate our diversity, the thing that surprises me time and time again as i travel around the constituency is that we are far more united and have far more in common than that which divides us. that was part of the speech, i should have said. last week, as you know, the prime minister was accused of stirring up public anger against mps after making this speech. i am absolutely sure you the public have had enough. you're tired of the infighting, you're tired of the political games and the arcane procedural rows, tired of mps talking about nothing else but brexit when you have real concerns about our children's schools, our national health service, knife crime. you want this stage of the brexit process to be over and done with. iagree. i am on your side. it is now time for mp5 to decide.

the next morning on this programme conservative mp and former attorney general dominic grieve told us this. i don't mind getting criticism, but i do get death threats. one came in yesterday, and she knows this. and indeed, earlier at prime minister's questions, she condemned the atmosphere of violence that seems to be creeping into some people's discourse and yet, ultimately, she used extremely aggressive language and, as i say, she'sjust wrong. let‘s talk to jo cox‘s sister, kim leadbeater from thejo cox foundation. thank you for talking to us. good morning. thank you, good morning. firstly, do you think theresa may‘s speech last week put mps in danger? i think it is part of a narrative thatis i think it is part of a narrative that is going on at the moment, and certainly i don‘t think the comments she made where helpful. i think they added to that narrative of division, andi added to that narrative of division, and i think anything where we are talking about sides and pitting people against each other, i don‘t

think that is particularly helpful, but i think it is part of a much broader scenario that has been going on for two and a half years, certainly sincejo on for two and a half years, certainly since jo got on for two and a half years, certainly sincejo got killed. on for two and a half years, certainly since jo got killed. but as prime minister did you see her stirring up public anger against mps? stirring up public anger against mp5? i stirring up public anger against mps? i don't think that was necessarily her intention, and clearly we are dealing with an extreme a complex issue, and she is stuck in the middle trying to find a way through and it is very difficult, but i don‘t think comments such as that are particularly helpful. we are in a climate which is very impassioned, we have very strong debate going on, very robust discussion, and i think what people in a position of responsibility should be doing is trying to calm that debate to some degree, so i think anybody who is saying things publicly needs to be careful about what they do say. she wasn‘t being careful enough. careful about what they do say. she wasn't being careful enough. as i say, i think anybody any position of responsibility has a responsibility to behave responsibly, and i think what we need is language talking about coming together across the

country and across parliament to try to find a solution. i think that sort of language is much more helpful than language talking about a division, pitting people against each other. why do you say the threats towards politicians have got worse since your sister‘s death? i‘ve had lots of meetings with politicians, and this is across the political spectrum, from both sides of the brexit debate and from all parties within parliament. the stories i have heard from mps about the threats made to them, theirfamilies, their staff, about the threats made to them, their families, their staff, and some of this is on social media, some of this is on social media, some is by e—mail, and it is awful, some is by e—mail, and it is awful, some of the stories i have heard, and this is a daily occurrence. these people live with this day in day out, and don‘t get me wrong, i am no cheerleader for mps. day out, and don‘t get me wrong, i am no cheerleaderfor mps. i have met a lot of mps in the past two and a half years, some of whom i really like and respect, and some less so, but what i try to remember is fundamentally they are a human being

who is doing their best, under very difficult circumstances. but i think mps have been dehumanised, and whenever i talk aboutjo i don‘t talk about her as an mp, i talk about her as a daughter, sister and mother, and i think it is very easy to forget people in these positions are human beings and we need to remember that, as we get enthused in the debate, which is really good. our country is built on a democracy where people can have opinions, and we should have a robust debate and discussion, but when that then transcends into personal insults and threats i think we all need to take a step back. we are just going to show on screen, kim, some of the m essa 9 es show on screen, kim, some of the messages sent to mps over social media, on e—mail. reviewers can see them. they start with things like, you impudent wench, you mps are utterly contemptible. .. you impudent wench, you mps are utterly contemptible... that was relatively benign compared to some others, that was an e—mail to stella

creasy. this one, said he received one saying his head should be chopped up. this one. "traitor, you better be looking over your shoulder from now on. "or better be looking over your shoulder from now on. " or this one. bloody traitor. and i think this is the other thing to point out, it is across the political spectrum. i have no political allegiance. this is about cross party, across the brexit debate. and again i make no judgment on how you voted on brexit. it is your prerogative and we live ina it is your prerogative and we live in a democracy where we all have the right to make that choice, and we should discuss these issues. it is clearly a n should discuss these issues. it is clearly an incredibly complex issue with lots of layers to it, but as you have shown there, threats of violence, other threats. mps have told me about rape threats, threats told me about rape threats, threats to theirfamily, told me about rape threats, threats to their family, and that takes on a whole new level and i think we all have a responsibility as i say to ta ke have a responsibility as i say to take a step back and think very

carefully about the language we use. are you anxious about the possibility of another politician being attacked? i think it is a real prospect, u nfortu nately. i think it is a real prospect, unfortunately. you know, again there we re unfortunately. you know, again there were stories this week of mps being told not to go home, not to go back told not to go home, not to go back to their constituency. and the danger is, you know, i will get accused of scaremongering, you know, colourful language, what do people say? but we know, to our cost as a family, it only takes one individual who cannot see the difference between that violent language and violent behaviour for lives to be torn apart and to be changed forever. so i think... i don‘t want to scaremonger, it‘s the last thing jo would want, for her name to be used to quash the debate. the debate and discussion is really important, but we all just and discussion is really important, but we alljust have to be a bit more responsible i think in the language that we use. what kind of threats have you heard towards mps

children? i have had mps saying to me on the sunday evening before going back to parliament, mps, don‘t going back to parliament, mps, don‘t go back to london, i‘m really scared. it wasn‘t a direct threat to the child, but they are very much aware of the situation and don‘t wa nt aware of the situation and don‘t want their mums or dads to be in a dangerous situation. that happened. we saw mps being verbally attacked in front of their children. these are families, you know, mums or dads, sisters and brothers, and we need to keep this civil and respectable. again, the same with staff in mps mcnulty s‘ offices, they don‘t know what they will turn up they don‘t know what they will turn up to at the office so they are scared to go to work —— in mps‘ offices. people have the right to go to work in a safe environment and i think a lot of people feel they don‘t have that at the moment. thanks very much for talking to us, kim. we appreciate it. thanks for

your time. no problem at all. kim leadbeater from the jo your time. no problem at all. kim leadbeater from thejo cox foundation, kim‘s sister. some input from you. someone who voted to leave in 2016, in hindsight had no idea what they were voting for. they now realise how much better off we would be staying in the eu. i don‘t believe for a moment the eu is perfect but isn‘t it better to stay asa perfect but isn‘t it better to stay as a member and have the opportunity to try to change it for the better? we should all be allowed the chance to vote again, says we should all be allowed the chance to vote again, sastohn. thanks for your company today. we are back tomorrow at ten o‘clock. have a good day. good morning. the week ahead is looking largely settled across the uk and this is the satellite imagery for the morning. you can see there is some clear blue skies for most of us. is some clear blue skies for most of us. this cloud is moving its way in and will bring a few showers across

western scotland. elsewhere, some fair weather cloud developing but plenty of sunshine. a rather strong northerly wind around the coast of norfolk and suffolk, could be a little chilly here. nine or 10 celsius, but elsewhere those highs getting 11—14dc. tonight, some cloud in scotland, northern ireland, which will gradually work its way further south but across many central and southern areas at least initially there will be clear skies and it could turn quite cherry into tuesday morning. perhaps a touch of frost. —— could turn quite chilly. during tuesday, more cloud compared to today. still some bright and sunny spells from time to time and maximum temperatures about 11 to 14 degrees. goodbye for now.

this is bbc news, i‘m joanna gosling — live in westminster — as yet another crucial week in the brexit process gets underway. theresa may‘s meeting her cabinet after a weekend of speculation about her future — but she‘s had words of support this morning. i think the prime minister is doing the right thing, thinking about the national interest, about this country and trying to end this chaos by getting this agreement through. it is simply not enough to say if we throw the prime minister overboard things will be all right because it really won't change anything. we‘ll have all the latest — and look ahead to later — when mps will try and seize control of the brexit process from the government. the other stories on bbc news. cleared of collusion. the us president claims complete exoneration after the special council finds no evidence of his election campaign