hello it's monday, it's10am, i'm victoria derbyshire. the scandal of vulnerable patients locked in secure patient units for weeks, months and years. their parents don't know how to get them out. one family, whose daughter has been in secure units for m years, was so desperate to get out, she swallowed a toothbrush. it is still stuck inside her, they said it would pass naturally but that hasn't happened. there is a possibility it could cause serious damage. the government promised it would reduce the numbers of people living in these units by 35% — by yesterday. it has failed — and has pushed back its own target. also, after another weekend of bloodshed — a spate of random stabbings in north london — the government

is discussing whether to impose a legal duty on health workers and teachers report young people at risk — and treat knife crime like a disease. violence is a disease, it's an illness, and we need to have that approach from a public health model where you have different agencies working together to safeguard young people. the man responsible for disciplining conservative mps — or trying to — the government chief whip — tells the bbc that the prime minster should have pursued a strategy for a softer brexit two years ago when it failed to get a majority in the election. the conservative party went to get a majority in order to deliver brexit. to avoid all of this? failed to get a majority. the government as a whole probably should have just been clearer. the consequences of that, the parliamentary arithmetic would mean that this would be inevitably a softer type of brexit. we'll hear from one ex—minister show who resigned from government last week and is now on the verge of backing a second referendum. and we'll also talk to heidi allen —

who's been named as leader of the independent group of mps who are now forming an official political party. hello, welcome to the programme. we're live until ”am this morning. as we are each weekday morning. we wa nt to as we are each weekday morning. we want to hear from you if you or someone want to hear from you if you or someone in your family has want to hear from you if you or someone in yourfamily has been detained in an assessment and treatment unit, atu, when perhaps you didn't think it was necessary. we are concentrating on that this morning. we'll being you our exclusive film in a moment. get in touch in the usual way.

the mp responsible for enforcing government policy within the conservative party has said the cabinet is the "most ill—disciplined in british political history". chief whipjulian smith also said the government should have made it clear they would have to accept a softer brexit after losing their majority at the 2017 general election. it comes as mps prepare to hold further votes on options for brexit. campaigners for people with learning difficulties have told the victoria derbyshire programme that a scheme to move patients out of secure treatment facilities in england is failing. in 2015, the government committed to reducing inpatient numbers at assessment and treatment units by at least 35% by march 2019 — but to date, 19% have been moved. teachers, nurses, charity workers and the police could be held accountable if they fail to spot the "warning signs" of violent crime in youngsters. it's one proposal that will be discussed later at a downing street summit on violent crime. ministers have come under increasing pressure to tackle the crisis after a spike in knife attacks and violent deaths. tougher rules on fixed odds betting machines have come into force.

from today the maximum stake that can be played has been cut from £100 to £2. campaigners have previously described the machines as the crack cocaine of gambling. more than two million workers will receive a pay rise from today as the minimum wage increases by almost 5%. the hourly rate for those over the age of 25 increases from £7.83 to £8.21. for full—time employees, that's worth an extra £690 over a year. the increase comes into effect 20 years on from the introduction of the national minimum wage. grammy—nominated american rapper nipsey hussle has been shot dead outside his clothing shop in los angeles. the 33—year—old was nominated for best rap album at this year's grammy awards for his album victory lap. singer rihanna led tributes, saying his death "didn't make sense", while rapper drake

described him as "a man of respect". charges for using the toilets at britain's busiest railway stations are being scrapped from today. edinburgh waverley, london liverpool street and london kings cross are among the last of 20 stations managed by network rail to make their toilets free to use. passengers were previously charged up to 50p to use the facilities. that is our news summary. back to victoria. thank you very much. "we are powerless and have to sit back and watch her suffer. it's torture for her and for us." those are the words ofjudy haines. her granddaughter ayla has learning difficulties and has been held in secure units known as atus for seven years. in her desperation, she swallowed a toothbrush, which is still inside her. patients are supposed to be admitted for nine to 18 months,

but the average stay in an atu is more than five years. four years ago, the government and nhs england said it would close at least 35% of the places at atus by the end of march this year, and provide alternative care in the community instead. but the department of health have missed their own deadline and pushed it back. 0ur reporter noel phillips has been to meet the parents of young people living in atus. she's my only child. she is everything to me. she is my life. it is just unbelievable. i am living a nightmare. at age 19 ayla haines was admitted to an assessment and treatment unit, or atu, after struggling with anorexia and other mental health illnesses. her life consists of spending her days from 7:30am in the morning until 9:30pm

at night in one room. she hasn't been out of that ward for the past year apart from once, and apart from hospital visits. we haven't been able to see her for the past year. we were only an allowed three ten—minute phone calls a week. ayla has spent the last seven years in psychiatric hospitals. she is currently at a medium secure unit 200 miles away from her home on the outskirts of cardiff. her mum says her prolonged stay has had a detrimental effect on her health. she's got a huge bald patch on her head now where her hair will never grow just from all the head—banging that she's done. and that's irreversible. one of the doctors said possibly she is caused more possibly she's caused more brain damage through the head—banging. so i don't know. i don't see a happy ending, really. she loved dressing up

in the village carnival. she's dressed up as a dalmatian. are you worried you might never see her again? yes, very much so. i'm 78 years of age and i've got a heart condition and it's distressing, not only for me, but having to watch ayla suffer and watch my daughter suffer. and being powerless to do anything about it. i've tried for seven years and written to so many people for help. and it'sjust not there. there are nearly 2,300 adults and children with autism and learning disabilities living in assessment and treatment units across the country. there was a systemic failure to protect the vulnerable residents who lived

here at winterbourne view. time and again, concerns are being raised about the way in which patients are restrained. atus came under increasing scrutiny in 2011 after the bbc exposed the horrific abuse of patients at a residential hospital winterbourne view. the panorama programme led to the government promising to shut down all similar units. the government and nhs promised to close many of these beds. people are spending many, many years in there. they shouldn't be. awful things are happening to people in there and they shouldn't be. in the same way that asylums were closed, these places need to be closed, and people need to be supported in the community. people are supposed to be admitted in atus for 9—18 months but nhs figures show the average length of stay is more than five years. having her away from home is obviously very difficult. but why are you so worried? she is so desperate to end it all really. she has a toothbrush inside her because she swallowed a toothbrush.

an actual toothbrush? an actual toothbrush. you couldn't imagine this happening to anyone. it is your worst nightmare. e—mails shown to us appear to confirm the incident, a senior social worker at the secure unit told the family injune 2018. nearly ten months on and you believe the toothbrush is still stuck inside her? it is still stuck inside her. they said it would pass naturally but that hasn't happened. there is a possibility that it could cause serious damage. we are powerless and have to sit back and watch ayla suffer and it's torture. it's torture for her and it's torture for us. the hospital where ayla is staying has told us they are closely regulated and often visited by the care quality commission.

in 2015, the government set a target to move between 35—50% of people with learning disabilities and autism out of inpatient units and into the community. it was called transforming care but the programme has missed its own five—year deadline only achieving around 20% and leaving 2,000 people on psychiatric wards. so, today, we are going to see jade and i'm really looking forward to it. we haven't seen her for a couple of weeks. linda and chris are making a two—hour journey from birmingham to nottinghamshire to visit their 27—year—old daughter. before she went into a psychiatric hospital, even when she was ill before she went into a psychiatric hospital she was very, very different, she was vivacious, she was lively, she could engage in long conversations with her peers and with us, etc etc.

but since she has been ill that has all disappeared. at age 1a jade hutchings started self harming, which led to her parents being advised that she had to be sectioned. she is currently at a medium secure unit in the east midlands. i wake up in the middle of the night and i'm crying. i'm just crying because i'm so sad. jade is the last thing i think of at night and the first thing i think of in the morning. there is no, in a sense, peace in your mind because you're always coming to terms with what's happened to your daughter. jade's not a danger to anyone, never has been. i mean, can you even envisage another situation where a human being is locked up under presumption up under presumption of guilt, yeah, on what they might do to themselves or to others? can you imagine a court that would accept that? but it seems to me mentally ill people lose that

right, you lose that basic human right to be free. 13 years on, jade's parents are unsure as to when she will return home. they say in a previous psychiatric hospital she was locked in a secluded attic room for hours. in one of the hospitals thatjade was in she was actually locked in a room for nine weeks and it was so awful for her because there was nothing in the room apart from a telly on a high bracket on the wall. nothing for her to do. she wore rubber clothes, nothing on the bed, not even a sheet. it was just awful. and we had to go there and it was heartbreaking. jade's family say she is still being held because the authorities believe she poses a risk to herself. birmingham city council, who are responsible for her care, told us it can't comment on her case for reasons of patient confidentiality. well, atus are like the old bedlam institutions in victorian times.

labour's shadow care minister says the government has allowed private companies to make millions of pounds by treating nhs patients in psychiatric units that failed to provide suitable care. there have been a0 deaths in these units since 2015 and nine of those were deaths of people under 35. the government must recommit itself and re—pledge to close these placements down. there is even a question of why paying five times, for instance, the amount it would cost to have a community placement, is good value for money. it just isn't. this is public money, taxpayers' money. in response, the department of health has told us in a statement:

# sitting on the dock over bay # sitting on the dock over bay # the tide... # with the right support and inpatient unit it is possible to change people's lives. this girl spent 22 months at a secure unit in the east midlands were her family says she was repeatedly restrained by staff. it was a very hopeless base, even i'm a child psychiatrist, i couldn't access the right support, i couldn't have a meaningful dialogue with the expert team that were looking after her. i'm aware of so many families that haven't been as lucky, and i live in fear that she may end up backin live in fear that she may end up back ina live in fear that she may end up back in a place like that. so i do think we won the lottery in a way in the support that we got and the care that she has at the moment. while

some families have been reunited, experts say unless proper funding is provided to local authorities, thousands of teenagers and young adults will remain in assessment and treatment units. if you wa nt to want to read more about this exclusive story go to the bbc website, bbc.co.uk, force news. it has been the most read story and are still the most read story all morning. moya and michael verrion‘s son mark has been in an atu for 11 and a half years. they have to take three trains to visit him 150 miles away. also with us, alexis quinn. she is autistic and spent five months in locked rehab and spent three years in an atu, psychiatric intensive and acute mental health care.

she says she was restrained, forcibly drugged and and prevented from living any thing like near a normal life. kari gerstheimer is from the charity mencap. she runs the legal team for the charity that supports families who have loved ones in these units. and margaret flynn wrote the report into the winterbourne view scandal in 2011. she says little has changed as a result. welcome to all of you and thank you for coming on the programme. moya and michael — you live in kent — you need to take three trains to see your son mark in an atu in northampton. and a bus. he is 47 and went into an atu 11 and a half years to the day. he's been transferred to different facilities 110 times. that's right. why is he still in an atu? we don't know, you will have to ask our local trust that. we can't give you an a nswer to trust that. we can't give you an answer to that, we don't know why.

what do you think, michael?” answer to that, we don't know why. what do you think, michael? i think basically that the people that are doing this to my son aren't professional enough to know that he should be nearer home. they keep transferring him further and further out of our local area, and they believe that this is in marked's best interests, and they also believe that mark is going to get better totally isolated and alone and homesick. it's never going to happen because every time they tra nsfer happen because every time they transfer him further away his mental health gets worse and worse and worse. now, he's totally insane. he can't talk. he can't do anything. he can't talk. he can't do anything. he can't bathe himself, he cannot

shower himself, he is totally incoherent. you can't have a telephone conversation with him now. in two previous hospitals, there was an incident and marks hip was broken. he sustained a broken hip. and that was in another private sector psychiatric hospital provider. and they carried out an internal inquiry of themselves and they told us they had cctv footage of the incident and photographs of the incident, and when they wrote the incident, and when they wrote the enquiry report of the incident where mark sustained a broken hip, it was stated in the report that they had destroyed the cctv footage and they had destroyed the photographs. and that was the end of that. we had a barrister on the

case, it cost us over £23,000 in barrister‘s fees, and she's written a letter for barrister‘s fees, and she's written a letterfor us, which cost barrister‘s fees, and she's written a letter for us, which cost us a lot of money and it was ignored and disregarded, and she asked us if we wa nted disregarded, and she asked us if we wanted her to write a chaser letter for us and we agreed. so she did, which cost us more money, and they ignored and disregarded that letter. we believe these psychiatric hospitals are totally above the rule and law of our country. they are not a nswera ble to and law of our country. they are not answerable to anybody. michael, can i ask you why mark went into an atu all those years ago, 11 and a half yea rs all those years ago, 11 and a half years ago today? the reason i believe he went into an atu, he was ina mentalunit believe he went into an atu, he was in a mental unit in margate and they we re in a mental unit in margate and they were shutting it down. he had depression, is that the reason why? yes, he went in with depression. he

we nt yes, he went in with depression. he went in with depression and itjust seemed to get worse and worse every time they made a move. 0ne responsible clinician said they should stay where they are because if they are nearer to home that's when they get better. how does your son spent his days? he sits in his wheelchair, because he's disabled now, he's been disabled for one year and nine months and he wasn't given and nine months and he wasn't given a hip replacement operation because he's mentally ill, and because he's mentally ill is not treated the same asa mentally ill is not treated the same as a mentally well person. they are second—class citizens in this country, and they do not have the same rights as mentally well people. so, mark is still enduring catastrophic broken hip injury for the past one year and nine months. and all that happened to mark 11 and

a half yea rs and all that happened to mark 11 and a half years ago to the day was that he was admitted into a psychiatric hospital with depression, and nothing more than depression. why can't you get him out? we can't, we tried for 11 years to get him out. what is the reason? our trust will not let him out. because of what, michael? because they don't talk to us. michael? because they don't talk to us. they give out, they send letters, they tell us we can only talk, they will talk to us twice a week. no, no... these e-mails they send to us, they don't talk to us twice a week. there is one they didn't send for 11 days. let me bring in kari from mencap, kari gerstheimer. why can't parents get their children out of these units? 0ften their children out of these units?

often the behaviour that is displayed is about communication, and it is often about communication that they are distressed, and if you move people out of their known environment into a hospitalised environment, often those behaviours will get worse and will escalate. that's often because these hospitals are not the right places. they don't treat people with a learning disability and, or autism and behaviour that challenges in a way that will reduce behaviours. people are over medicalised, over medicated, they are secluded, they are restrained, and of course, behaviours in that sort of situation will escalate, and that's why we see people staying in these units.|j don't understand why the parents, why moya and michael cannot get mark out and why earlier‘s mum and grandmother cannot get a let out.

out and why earlier‘s mum and grandmother cannot get a let outm is deeply shocking, isn't it? why can't they get them out? the reasons are very comforted. 0ne can't they get them out? the reasons are very comforted. one reason is the community—based support isn't there. we know that social care funding is in a mess and there hasn't been the right programme of developing specialised community—based support for people with specialist needs. the second reason is that the money is in the wrong place. there are all sorts of perverse financial incentives. so when somebody is in a unit they are funded by the nhs. if somebody is in the community, then often their needs will be met by the local authority. so there is no incentive for the local authority to move somebody out of the unit. really importantly, a lot of the people are in private hospitals, and it's deeply sickening that there are individuals getting rich out of people being in private hospitals.

so there is no incentive for private hospitals to discharge people when a filled bed means money. is that actually going on? that's going on. let me bring in alexis who is autistic and spent five months in locked rehab in southern england. alexis, thank you for talking to us. thank you. what was your experience over those five months? i've been locked up in totalforfour years, and much like mark i went in after my brother died, and as the lady from mencap explain, when you are moved out of your routine, predictable environment, and you have suffered a crisis, so for me my brother died and i had just given birth, and you enter a ward which is by nature a very chaotic place, it is not your routine, it is unfamiliar, it is very sensory

charged, so very noisy. any behaviours that you then subsequently display, autistic behaviours, you know, behaviours that you do to calm yourself down, so it might be pacing, flapping, or something like that, that is met with force. it can be restrained, it can be seclusion. i was restrained 97 times, so i was locked up in these units, and my behaviourjust got worse and worse and worse, until i became what they were describing me to be, which is somebody who, as mark's parents said, i looked insane because i was taking drugs which we re because i was taking drugs which were worsening my condition which made me twitch which made my face contort. sorry, alexis, can i ask you, how did you get out?|j contort. sorry, alexis, can i ask you, how did you get out? i actually escaped and i feel so strongly about this, because i know i would still be in those units today. i was in

there for four years. how did you escape? i escaped by taking a car to the port of dover and i went over the port of dover and i went over the channel. the police were chasing me, they sent two helicopters searching for me along the coastline. i went to paris charles de gaulle airport and flew to dubai and flew to lagos in nigeria, and it took me six weeks, you know, to come off the drugs and to get my routine back and to come my sensory system, you know. that is an astonishing story, that the way to get out for you was to literally fully, in that sense. let me bring in margaret, if i may. margaret flynn wrote the report into the winterbourne view scandal in 2011. what has changed since then in these places? so very little and what we have heard from mark's family and this morning is a

bracing indictment of a service that is not delivering anything that we would hope from our nhs, phenomenal suitis would hope from our nhs, phenomenal sums of money are being pumped into these hospitals where health care is frankly so wanting that people are desperately ill as a result of being in hospital. a great deal needs to change, not least of all, as kari said, there is a great deal of money to be made here, and we want our regulators to be critics of very poor performance. they are not at present. we want them to look at the ownership of some of these units and hospitals. for example, winterbourne view hospital was part of a group that was called cb care limited owned via jersey by a swiss—based equity group. how can families challenge accountability when we aren't able to identify even the directors, who are not paying tax in

this country, incidentally. in terms of the government trying to close these beds, it has achieved not its target, but it has closed some. it has pushed this target back and given itself more time to do what it promised to do. it would argue it is getting there. it is too slow for families, far too slow. families have a vision of something that is much more malevolent and kinder than that which they witness at present. i want to read a statement from the trust where your son mark is being treated. it is true that in decades past some patients were detained in institutions for years without anyone reviewing their care or treatment. in today's modern mental health settings things are very different, services focus on supporting people to recover. the aim always being to discharge from hospital as soon as possible. health services recognise and understand that for most people and their loved 1's home is where they want to be,

that's at the heart of good mental health care and where it is not possible to achieve because somebody‘s needs are highly complex, we work with them and their loved ones to help and support them reach thataim. do ones to help and support them reach that aim. do you think you are any closer to getting your son home? no closer to getting your son home? no close at all, and i will say what you have read out by our local trust isa you have read out by our local trust is a pack of lies. why do you say that? everything they have documented to you, victoria, is not true. we have not experienced one, not one of the things they have put in that statement to you, and we can prove that. i have got written evidence that all of that statement is one pack of lies. 0k. evidence that all of that statement is one pack of lies. ok. i will only say that because i've got written evidence of it. i'm taking their statement at face value but i hear what you are saying as well. they have not helped or supported mark, and they haven't helped or supported us. and they haven't helped or supported us. they have chucked mark up in hospital 150 miles away and

basically abandoned him. they go up there are four meetings every six months. every six months there is a cpa and ctr meeting which they attend and that is all they do. they don't phone him and they go up for these meetings, cpa, ctr meetings once every six months. my son is isolated, alone and very homesick. i'm very sorry to hear that, margaret, and thank you for telling us margaret, and thank you for telling us about it, and michael, thank you for coming on. moya, i'm sorry, kari, and alexis. i am a nurse that works in an at you, please appreciate the abuse we experience daily trying to help users manage their aggression so they are saved to go into the community. sandra and facebook says i was locked in a psychiatric unit for 15 yea rs locked in a psychiatric unit for 15 years and only got out because the unit was decaying. the amount of further damage this caused me was utterly devastating, i effectively lost 15 years of my life. phil says

my son was 260 miles away for three yea rs. my son was 260 miles away for three years. he is now well cared for back here in cornwall after we campaign. he is proof that homes are better hospitals, no medication anymore and life improved. the government has promised to reduce these inpatient numbers many times. thank you all of you for coming on the programme, it is definitely an issue that we will come back too, so don't worry about that. thank if you want to contact our action line because of the issues we have been discussing... you can visit the bbc actionline website at bbc.co.uk/actionline. they should be able to point you in the direction of advice should you need it. still to come. we'll be speaking to a surgeon who sees the impact of knife crime, and a mother whose son was stabbed to death in 2017 about the government's new plans to treat knife crime like an infectious disease. and fixed odds betting terminals — they're the machines where you can

lose a crazy £300 per minute, that's £18,000 an hour. well, no more because new rules are coming into force today. we'll bring you more on that shortly. theresa may could decide this week that the only way out of the brexit deadlock is to hold a general election. she might also decide that the government needs to put its weight behind a softer brexit — if a majority of mps rally behind a particular way forward. whatever decision she makes, she is bound to upset some members of her cabinet and resignations may follow. the pm may also decide to bring back her deal to the commons for yet another vote this week. before that, tonight, mps will hold a second round of so—called "indicative votes" where they will express a preference on on a series of alternative options for brexit. a preference on a series of alternative options for brexit.

remember — last week, mps had their first chance to vote on a range of options and there was no majority for anything at all, although the top three options were some form of softer brexit, and a second referendum. let's speak to the conservative mp richard harrington — he was until very recently the industry minister — he resigned in part to prevent a no—deal brexit from taking place. thank you very much for coming on the programme. now, are you going to support a second referendum in these boats tonight? well, victoria, i am going to support a confirmatory referendum because i think the country is split, parliament is split and whatever happens, a large amount of people are going to say they have been betrayed by another large amount of people, whichever way it is decided. so i think, much asi way it is decided. so i think, much as i haven't supported it up until now, the best way of dealing it is for parliament to decide, which is what we are paid to do and i think people expect us to do, but because of the turmoil and disruption and disagreement within the country, i

think it is the right thing for the public to confirm that because it is more than three years since they last had a chance to speak. and you know that will make a lot of people cross because they say we had the chance to speak three years ago, please deliver brexit. and i have done my best to compromise, support the prime minister's dale and i will still supported if it comes back but the fact is a lot of people won't, and this winner takes all mentality on both sides, that is people who got 52% of the vote who think, that is it, it is a whitewash, we can have everything we want or indeed people from the 48%, who say nothing but remain is satisfactory, i don't agree with either of those. i think in real life, people expect a kind of compromise and we have done our absolute best to get that and we still will. the way parliament votes today, i'm not sure but it looks like some form of customs union, a bit like the common market that used to be. a lot of my constituents say thatis

to be. a lot of my constituents say that is what we originally voted for in the 19705, those old enough, and thatis in the 19705, those old enough, and that is what we are trying to do. so whatever deal parliament can support going back to the people, and what would be on the ballot paper? my personal view is not micro when i was personal view is not micro when i wa5 government minister, you weren't 5uppo5ed wa5 government minister, you weren't supposed to say your personal view but now i can, my personal view is that no deal, which i believe would bea that no deal, which i believe would be a total and utter di5a5ter, i would put that on it and then i think whatever parliament decide on, which i can should be the prime minister's deal, or maybe a customs union orfor tho5e minister's deal, or maybe a customs union or for those people that want to remain. i don't want this but we are in desperate circumstances. leaver5 will say if you split the vote... if you put those three on the ballot paper, you split the vote. that is not what i want to do, iju5t want vote. that is not what i want to do, i just want there to be a fair reflection of the people have spent three years thinking about it because people do change their mind5. i don't want to do is 52% of people but, at the same time, the

48% of people also, i don't believe in winner takes all. a lot of new information has emerged and i disagree with my very good friend john barron, who is our next, and we agree about most things but at the moment, everything is through the pri5m moment, everything is through the prism of brexit. he will explain himself that no deal, he is putting that forward quite properly and democratically and legitimately. i personally think because of my experience with business and industry, it will be a total disaster. at the end of the day, i ama disaster. at the end of the day, i am a compromise person and i think providing there is a way for bu5ine55 much the same as it was, i understand people want immigration controls are not to be part of europeanjuri5diction controls are not to be part of european jurisdiction and all this stuff, so i am looking for a compromise. thank you and thank you for introducing john barron, your conservative college. no deal would bea conservative college. no deal would be a disaster, so says people like richard. can ijust say, iwas be a disaster, so says people like richard. can ijust say, i was told to close this —— city is close to you, so i wasn't of the edge of the seat. no deal, my preference is the

prime minister's agreement butjulie amended so we couldn't be caught indefinitely in the backstop. that i5 indefinitely in the backstop. that is not going to happen. we don't know yet, ten days is a long time. let's not deal in fantasy politics, the eu will not amend the withdrawal agreement, it is not up for renegotiation, you know that.“ that is true, and it is not the case at the 11th hour and they have a record... not the withdrawal agreement. we shall see and if that is not the case, my second preference would be to leave on wto no deal terms and thereby risk respect the triggering of article 50. the one decision everyone has agreed on is to trigger article 50 and that is to look at a deal, if we don't like it, we leave on wto deal terms on the 29th of march and no the 22nd of may. so you know there i5a the 22nd of may. so you know there is a majority in parliament against

no deal, are you actively urging the prime minister to pursue no deal, in conflict with parliament? let's be honest, she has been in conflict with the rest of the mp5 honest, she has been in conflict with the rest of the mps in the last three votes for a meaningful vote. but she already said last week, as you know, you will probably there, when she said no deal won't happen if the house doesn't want it to. it i5 if the house doesn't want it to. it is not going to happen. she has also said we are prepared for no deal, she has given personal assurances that we are and i would suggest an element of moderation. it is a very fluid situation in parliament at the moment and i would ask people to reflect on the fact that in 2016, they were all sorts of dire predictions as to what would happen if we voted to leave and those predictions were 500,000 extra unemployed by christmas 2016. they all had to apologise... we all remember those arguments. what i would suggest is this, since then, we have had record low unemployment, re cord we have had record low unemployment, record high manufacturing output, re cord record high manufacturing output, record inward investment and those decisions have been based on the

knowledge that we could be leaving no deal terms, so let's have a rational debate. do you sacrifice the good friday agreement? what about the hard border between ireland and northern ireland? all of the unionist parties in northern ireland, notjust the unionist parties in northern ireland, not just the the unionist parties in northern ireland, notjust the dup, have said this would not happen and we have even this would not happen and we have even had the taoiseach say there is technology that could be part of the solution and he said that recently. if that was the case, it would have beenin if that was the case, it would have been in the withdrawal agreement instead of the backstop. unfortunately, these are tough, complex negotiations, it is not black and white and you will see that the eu have perhaps used northern ireland as a bargaining chip. you would be breaching the conservative manife5to, which promised a smooth, orderly brexit. not necessarily is you will say... the manifesto said we would be leaving the single market, the customs union, the ecj and parliament, by 384... sorry, you ignored my question. the conservative party manifesto

promised a smooth, orderly brexit, leaving in ten days' time with no deal would not be a smooth, orderly brexit. what evidence do you have that it would encourage what this is my point, with respect. everybody is saying that if you leave in wto terms, it would not be smooth or orderly. the prime minister promised us on the 12th of every, as last example, that we would be ready for no deal. we would be ready for no deal. we trade with many, many countries outside the eu are no deal wto terms. what we have here is a remain dominated westminster bubble and for those who campaign for leave and for those who campaign for leave and have been trying to honour the referendum result since, we have been fighting a rearguard action to deliver on the referendum result and, after all, don't forget, parliament contracted this decision out to the people. it is now incumbent upon people to deliver the referendum result which means, if necessary, leaving on wto terms on the 12th of april. right, we are going to talk now to the new leader,

the new interim leader, of the group called change uk, more recently known as the independent group, m p heidi allen, a former colleague of john barron's in the conservative party. no deal on the 12th of april? absolutely no and you are absolutely right to press john absolutely no and you are absolutely right to pressjohn on that, because parliament has been clear twice, the prime minister has acknowledged, there is no way whatsoever that we will tolerate no deal, it is economically suicidal. but it would deliver on the result of the referendum. i am not sure about that, if you cast your mind back... it is always easy to be ro5e tinted but it was always clear to most of us but it was always clear to most of us that we will trade on the same trading arrangements we have always had, liam fox saying it would be the easie5t trade deal we have down in history, so to leave with nothing... people forget that if we come out with no deal, it means no transition period, so the two—year period for getting things ready wouldn't be in place, which means no negotiations

for drugs, you can't get chemicals and come you can't move people, you can't move goods, tariffs are not arranged. it is literally cliff edge andi arranged. it is literally cliff edge and i don't understand why anybody could remotely support that.“ there is a snap general election, would your group, your party, be able to field candidates in every constituency? the first hurdle we need to get over is the electoral commi55ion accepting our application. let's say they do. speaking we are hoping, i don't know how long it will take but we will certainly stand in the general election. in every constituency? we would have to be realistic, how swiftly it would come. clearly this i5 swiftly it would come. clearly this is david and goliath stuff, we are starting from the beginning and so if you ask me to field 650 candidates tomorrow, i would probably struggle but we would certainly work very hard to target areas where we know there is a great appetite for a new kind of politics. and you would stand in your own seat of south cambridge5hire. how are you going to prevent yourselves becoming

a single issue party? that is important because if we do, we would deserve to fail and that the most important thing we want to do, brexit, unfortunately, is dominating our lives at the moment but our plans are to get out around the country and talk to experts, academics, professionals in the field and build our manifesto from the bottom up and we have a plan in place to do that and we need to publi5h place to do that and we need to publish that and share where we are going to be. but we need to have policie5 going to be. but we need to have policies on absolutely everything. going to be. but we need to have policies on absolutely everythinglj wa nt to policies on absolutely everythinglj want to play this clip, which you will possibly have been played before. this is from the guido fawke5 website, a clip of what you 5aid fawke5 website, a clip of what you said just after the referendum. at a hustings, probably.

right, so you want to remain, you wa nt right, so you want to remain, you want a second referendum. you said that two yea r5 want a second referendum. you said that two years ago, why should anyone trust what you say? it is a good question. i was listening to richard harrington ju5t good question. i was listening to richard harrington just now, good question. i was listening to richard harringtonju5t now, he said exactly the same words as i said, none of us wanted but i accept that this parliamentary gridlock i5 pushing u5 this parliamentary gridlock i5 pushing us in that direction. i 5uppo5e pushing us in that direction. i suppose the big difference between then and now is at that stage, two years ago, right behind the prime minister, 5he years ago, right behind the prime minister, she will come back with a cracking deal, it will bring the country back together, look after the irish border 5ituation, deal with the economy and security... know you want to ignore it. no, because she has failed. de5pite know you want to ignore it. no, because she has failed. despite her be5t because she has failed. despite her best efforts, i don't doubt for a moment the effort and determination 5he moment the effort and determination she has put into it but she hasn't been able to. she has been trying, for reasons beyond may, two ex collea g u e5 for reasons beyond may, two ex colleagues likejohn for reasons beyond may, two ex colleagues like john baron for reasons beyond may, two ex colleagues likejohn baron who are not in the market for compromise at all, so she has come back with a deal that doesn't suit anybody. had 5he proceeded a5 deal that doesn't suit anybody. had 5he proceeded as i hope she would, i would still be saying tho5e 5he proceeded as i hope she would, i would still be saying those things.

i have heard what you said but why should people trust you going forward ? should people trust you going forward? it is a good question and i 5uppo5e because forward? it is a good question and i suppose because when i became an mp, and you are elected to become an mp, it is an incredibly responsible situation and you are presented with fa ct5 situation and you are presented with facts and data that perhaps constituents don't get to see and the trust is put with you to weigh up the trust is put with you to weigh up those decisions based on the fa ct5 up those decisions based on the facts for tomorrow, not from three years ago and the situation has changed immeasurably from where we thought we would be when the referendum result came in. and i would be doing my constituents and by default the country a disservice ifi by default the country a disservice if i ignored the reality of where we are, the risks to the economy... so you can change your mind on almost anything to three years down the line. i think policy does need to change. look at the benefits freeze, it is so outdated, we need to change that. let me ask you about things like benefits and so on, so we get an idea about your principles and politics, because you have only been an mp since 2015. is that what you are the leader, because you haven't

got much baggage? it is a variety of reasons. a5 got much baggage? it is a variety of reasons. as a got much baggage? it is a variety of rea5on5. as a group got much baggage? it is a variety of reasons. as a group of 11, we sat down a decision because forming a party going to the electoral commission, you need a leader. it is about who has the skills to bring people together. i have always worked acro55 party and a5 a politically a5 worked acro55 party and a5 a politically as i could and given the reason we need these new politics is that all the existing structures have failed u5, that all the existing structures have failed us, a kind of middle—of—the—road person who worked in business, industry, they are the candidates we want to attract. and with not much political baggage. no 5keleto n5, with not much political baggage. no 5keleton5, i hope. with not much political baggage. no skeletons, i hope. are there any 5 keleto n5 ? skeletons, i hope. are there any 5keleton5? speak and i don't think 5o, 5keleton5? speak and i don't think so, i 5keleton5? speak and i don't think 5o, iam 5keleton5? speak and i don't think so, i am quite a boring person really! should income tax be higher for the highest earners?|j really! should income tax be higher for the highest earners? i want a 5weet for the highest earners? i want a sweet spot where it covers public 5ervice5 sweet spot where it covers public services and nhs and education. does that mean it goes up question mark speak potentially, it could. it was cut by george osborne from 50 to 40%. what could it go up to?|j cut by george osborne from 50 to 40%. what could it go up to? i will not put a figure on it, everything

we do has to be evidence—based so i would look at the statistics. have you ever taken drug 5tronger would look at the statistics. have you ever taken drug stronger than cannabis? i have never even had a cigarette. should railways be renationalised? i don't think that would get the best service. do you think section 60 powers to tackle knife crime should be authorised or can be authorised by a less senior officer? i think that is a question for the people who know far better than i, which is the police office but far too often in policy areas, politicians get in a way of experts doing theirjob. should shamima begum be have —— might have been allowed back to the uk?|j begum be have —— might have been allowed back to the uk? i think we acted too quickly, or possibly even illegally, for the home secretary suggested she shouldn't come back. there was a vulnerable woman there. so, yes? we should have been allowed to talk to her and look after her and see if there was a risk 5till to talk to her and look after her and see if there was a risk still to the uk? but you wouldn't be against her coming back? if it is the cure. should her british citizenship be reinstated? that is a question for

the lawyers. what is your personal view? i don't have a personal view because i'm not a legal expert. what i5 because i'm not a legal expert. what is your instinct? my instinct is you speak to her and see if there are ri5ks speak to her and see if there are risks to uk 5ecurity. speak to her and see if there are risks to uk security. if she mentally aware of her own behaviours, while she groomed? she was a young girl, how she mature? all of those factors have to be taken into all of those factors have to be ta ken into account all of those factors have to be taken into account and i don't know the answers. do you regret voting to cut benefits for the poorest?” regret backing the benefit freeze, which are secured benefits at a certain level for four years, yes which are secured benefits at a certain level forfour year5, yes i do. do i think we needed to deal with the debt and deficit at the time? yes, i do but go back to your question about the referendum, policy needs to be reviewed more often. you can't 5et policy needs to be reviewed more often. you can't set it in stone if the economic environment is changing. you voted in reductions in benefits for disabled and ill claimants required to participate in activities intended to increase their chances of obtaining work. do

you regret that? no, the asa, the mo5t contentious vote, i voted against it. you voted against benefit increases for recipients in social housing. some of these were 0ppo5ition day debate, not all of them were legislative. you have to look at the detail. you were the first person to talk in the comments about having an abortion. we have a short clip, let's have a look. i was ill when i made the incredibly hard decision to have a termination. i was having seizures every day. i wasn't even able to control my own body, let alone care for a new life. so, mr speaker, are you seriously telling me that in a civilised world, rape, incest or a foetus that is so 5adly deformed that it could never live are not sufficient grounds for a woman to have the power to decide for herself that she shouldn't make that decision? no, enough. why did you... i still get upset seeing that. sorry. don't apologise.

why are you upset now? well, because it brings back memories. i'm not saying it is a hard thing to say publicly, because that is myjob, i have to say things that need saying that you compromise your own private space by doing it, i suppose. was it the right decision to talk about it publicly? from the overwhelming support that i received from women and men right across the uk, particularly in northern ireland which is what the debate was centred around, absolutely the right thing, because it gave them a fighting chance. 0ne because it gave them a fighting chance. one of those people in there, they have been in my shoes andi there, they have been in my shoes and i think that is what politicians need to do, they need to be able to connect with people and if we hadn't had the same experiences in life, if we lived in a perfect, separate bubble, how would people trust us? so it was hard and is still hard now, but, yes. thank you very much for talking to us, thank you for coming on the programme. heidi allen, the interim leader of, you

are hoping it is going to be called change uk. thank you very much for your time. we should treat knife crime like an infectious disease. that's what the prime minister has said today as she convenes a knife crime summit today. scotland has cut knife crime by an astonishing 70% since the middle of the last decade because they began to approach it as a public health issue rather than simply an issue of crime. i've been speaking to experts who are attending the knife crime summit — and a mother whose son was stabbed to death. thank you very much for talking to us, all of you. cathy, i want to ask you first of all, what sort of injuries are you seeing and treating? i am maxillo—a facial surgeon, which means i am a doctor, a dentist and trained head and neck surgeon, so as such i deal with injuries affecting the head and neck, the face and the neck, i get patients who will come in with penetrating neck injuries, which means knife injuries, bottles, guns, affecting this area. patients can have nasty wounds affecting them and gushes affecting them and gashes

over the face which can affect the facial nerve. it will leave that individual with a permanent scar. patients can be stabbed in the neck. it may look like quite a small entry wound but actually as a surgeon we have to open up the neck and actually control the vessels and work out what has been damaged. has the airway been damaged? has the voice been damaged? are the major vessels damaged? and we work as part of a team. it's notjust myself and my team. we are a multidisciplinary team. and we have to all work together to manage these cases. 478 patients, the hospital treated last year, with these kind of injuries. that's the highest number you say since comparable records began 2010 when 172 patients were recorded. so it's a big increase. what do you think of that rise? we have continued to have a rise. our data went through until 2017 and we know over 2018 that has continued to increase. the question is, are these real increases, or are we better at recording? in 2010, we became a major trauma

centre, and as such there is a certain diversion of cases through to us. but nevertheless i don't think we can explain all of those cases due to diversion from other units. being part of a major trauma team, we are managing these cases on a regular basis. we have standard operating procedures that allow us to manage them safely. but nevertheless, this type of injury leaves that individual, usually young men, with quite significant scars externally that you can see in the head and neck region, and also internally as well, that can impact on that individual. let me ask you, sarah and anthony, in terms of approaching this as the prime minister is writing in a newspaper today, like an infectious disease killing our children, ie, what scotland have done, approaching it as a public health issue, would you agree with that? yes, serious youth violence is a disease, it is an illness, and we need to have that approach from the public health model where you have different agencies working together to

safeguard young people. what would you say, sarah? absolutely it is the right approach and it's good the prime minister is having this summit today and we need that to be followed up with action. but there is a whole raft of things that in the health field we could be doing at the moment that we are not. so, of course, action in hospitals but in dentists, one of the biggest signs of domestic violence and violence in the home comes out when you go to the dentist if your teeth have been knocked around. what are the interventions at that point? we have to get away from this idea that we treat the injury and then move the child along. we have to actually intervene at that point. what are you suggesting a dentist, for example, should do at that point? if you look at the training people have had about children who are victims of child sexual exploitation, a lot of professionals now are trained to recognise those signs and trained to intervene at the right point. so, a lot of training tojust see this might be a vulnerable child, and then you set up a route, maybe it's into some kind of youth work, maybe into some kind

of support for the family but the point is to understand the signs so that you can act. you think teachers, social workers, whoever else, should be required by law to report danger signs, or children they think might be at risk of picking up a knife? i think we have to look at this in the round and not the sort of say, by law we will do something terrible if you don't do these things. so, no. you don't think it should be a statutory duty? but i do think it needs to be part of what teachers do. but along with that has to come the funding to allow teachers to be able to do theirjob and at the moment theyjust can't, so it wouldn't be a fair as somebody who has lost a son to knife crime? totally support the scottish method and the health approach to this problem. i kind of see it like stop and search. i see stop and search as the triage, slapping the bandage on. but unfortunately there is nobody around or services available to clean the wound out, stitch it, to make sure it doesn't

get reinfected. so there is just no support, because there is no funding. yeah. anthony, like in some hospitals in scotland, you work in a hospital in london doing what specifically? i manage a team of youth workers and we work with young people that have been harmed by serious violence, and our model is based on what we call a teachable moment. when young people have been harmed and they are in a hospital they are at a stage where they are not in a hypervigila nt state, where they are not scared and that's when we can intervene. and do what? and we can offer help. what? the help consists of getting that young person to think about what support they might need. you are talking about trying to get a job, trying to get accommodation, that kind of thing? what i'm talking about is around young people that are traumatised, that have emotional issues, that need support around mental health, around housing, round employment, round self esteem, around self worth.

thank you, all of you. we will see what comes out of the knife crime summit, as it's being called. thank you very much for coming on the programme. many messages from you about the interview with the new leader of the independent group, heidi allen. i totally respect heidi allen for showing her emotions today, she is absolutely right, politicians are often not relatable and i feel she is. a number of people saying they would vote for her next time. thanks for your company today. bbc newsroom live is coming up next. have a good day. good morning, lots of sunshine across england and wales, it is going to be a fine, fairly warm day for many but that is all set to

change over the next 24 hours, you can see from the latest satellite imagery where you have that sunshine in southern and eastern areas, the more cloud further north and west you are as beneath the cloud, some outbreaks of rain, quite chary at the moment, but gradually we will see some more persistent rain moving its way into the west. staying largely dry and bright across parts of england and wales, temperatures 13-16 of england and wales, temperatures 13—16 celsius, more like 8—10 for scotla nd 13—16 celsius, more like 8—10 for scotland and northern ireland. 0vernight tonight, this area of rain will move south and east and behind it, colder air will start will move south and east and behind it, colderairwill start to will move south and east and behind it, colder air will start to dig its way in and that will bring some wintry showers in the north west. still relatively mild down in the south—east, temperatures for— six space celsius but during tuesday, the area of rain will move eastwards, it will be replaced by sunny spells and showers, though showers on the heavy side. goodbye for now.

this is bbc news. i'm carrie gracie, live in westminster as yet another critical week in the brexit process gets under way. the headlines at 11: theresa may's chief whip attacks the government's handling of brexit and accuses ministers of trying to undermine the prime minister. this was, i think of the worst example of ill discipline in cabinet in british political history. mp5 will try again later to find a way forward on brexit after failing to find a majority on any alternative plans last week. the best way forward to honour the va u lts the best way forward to honour the vaults of 17.4 million people and also to safeguard our economy is to get behind the prime minister's approach. we need to make sure that we we re even approach. we need to make sure that we were even an orderly fashion. i'm lukwesa burak. also this hour: teachers and nurses could be legally obliged to warn about young people at risk of violence.