are actually welcome to newsday. —— our top story: i'm babita sharma in london. the british prime minister, the headlines: theresa may, will ask the eu for a further delay to brexit. in a change of direction, seven hours of talks mrs may said she will also try to reach agreement with a divided cabinet. with the opposition labour party on how to end the crisis. crowds are celebrating in algeria theresa may says she will ask at the news that the country's for another brexit delay and offers president, abdelaziz bouteflika, is to step down after to consult the opposition. this debate, this division cannot drag on much longer. it is putting members weeks of protests. of parliament and everyone else under immense pressure. we need to ensure that parliament has an opportunity to vote the 82—year—old has rarely been seen on proposals that prevent us in public since suffering a stroke crashing out of the eu in the end six years ago. of next week. and this story is trending at bbc.com. one of prince harry's biggest fans in australia, 99—year—old daphne dunne, has passed away. she died just days after getting a birthday card from harry and his wife, meghan. she said she'd had "a very special wide the corruption trial of the friendship" with the prince. you're up to date. former prime stay with us. now on bbc news, stephen sackur talks

to the writer angie thomas on hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. when it comes to issues of race and racism, the gap between america's promise of equality and the reality of entrenched inequality seems depressingly wide. generations of black americans have made efforts to change that — so made efforts to change that — so how far have they got? my my guest today is angie thomas, a writer whose first novel electrified america with its unflinching betrayal of a teenage girl confronting police violence, inner—city gang culture, and a society rooted in discrimination. can hope win out over fear and hate?

angie thomas, a warm welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me. your books have been described as fiction for young adults. i mean you area fiction for young adults. i mean you are a young adult yourself, ijust wonder if you set out to write with a vision of your reader, your audience in your mind. you know, i initially did but i have to say that the audience i have acquired is far wider than i ever would have imagined. when i write my books, i think of those kids in my old neighbourhood who often say they hate reading and it is essential because they are not used to seeing books about people like them, so thatis books about people like them, so that is essentially my target but it has gone beyond my target. i have

had readers of the hate u give who had readers of the hate u give who had been 80 years old and everything in between, so what i set out to do, did not imagine what i would actually do. it is totally different. let's go back to jackson, mississippi, where you were born and raised, where you went to school. were there experiences you had that we re very were there experiences you had that were very much a part of the two novels you have had published so fa ryes, novels you have had published so faryes, absolutely. novels you have had published so fa ryes, absolutely. with novels you have had published so faryes, absolutely. with the hate u give, i was a lot like my main character, style, i lived in two worlds at one time, my mostly poor black neighbourhood and i mostly white upper—class private school, andi white upper—class private school, and i often found myself being to different people into different worlds and struggling to figure out which angie was the real angie. when i was which angie was the real angie. when iwasa which angie was the real angie. when i was a teenager, i wanted to be a rapper like my main character, and like her a big reason for that was my family was experiencing financial hardship. there were times when we got our meals from food banks. there we re got our meals from food banks. there were times when we were not sure if

were times when we were not sure if we would have utilities, so i took those experiences for myself to help others get an understanding of what so others get an understanding of what so many young people deal with. that is interesting because as you say, you have got to very strong female protagonist in these books, star carter in book one, the hate u give, and then brie and two, on the come up. they are rather different and as you have alluded to, style tries to conform, to shape itself into the situation, whether it be the urban black neighbourhood or the white school. —— brie. brie on the other hand has more anger in her, she has more controlled. which is the real angie? i think there are probably bits and pieces of both in me. when i was bits and pieces of both in me. when iwasa bits and pieces of both in me. when i was a teenager, i was a bit more like star and more concerned about what others thought i was, now that iam what others thought i was, now that i am older i find myself a bit more

like brie, had those frustrations and angerand like brie, had those frustrations and anger and also the passion and drive and i was driven by love my family and the determination to make it, so i definitely connect with both. let's talk about anger, what we re both. let's talk about anger, what were you angry about as a kid? you know, i think for me as a kid, i was angry about the circumstances and the fact that people outside of my life and outside of lives like mine failed to try to understand the circumstances. the reason i loved hip—hop so much as a teenager and as a kid was because mappers were speaking about my situation and they understood it, whereas if i watch the news, when they talked about neighbourhoods like mine, when they talked about people like me, it was only ina talked about people like me, it was only in a negative light. no—one was actually seeing us in celebrating oui’. actually seeing us in celebrating our. and did you feel that was directly about race and the fact you would like and the prevailing sort of culture, particularly for example in the mass media, was driven by white people and the white understanding? yes, absolutely. the white gaze plays a huge role in how others are depicted, specifically a young black people are depicted with

the media plays a huge role too. site interrupts, but that would racism, was that part of your vocabulary is a teenager? you felt in your everyday life that you are to racism? you know, i would not say in my everyday life, but i was dealt cards that were to do with systemic racism. -- so you felt. what i mean by that is that neighbourhoods like mine were not given the resources that majority white neighbourhoods we re that majority white neighbourhoods were given. i had to leave my neighbourhood to get a quality education, had to go to a majority white school to do that. i was not worried about encountering everyday racism, no it was not a part of my everyday vocabulary, but i understood that there was a system that was built upon racism that affected my everyday life. and hip—hop, which you really into as a young woman, mapping, as a teenager, was that a vehicle for you to be able to express some of the emotion, some of the anger that you were

feeling inside? -- rapping. yeah, i think so, i think so. and i think thatis think so, i think so. and i think that is why hip—hop scares so many people, or at least at one time, did,i people, or at least at one time, did, ithink people, or at least at one time, did, i think because it was speaking to some of the raw feelings that young people in america were feeling and wrappers were not holding back, they were telling these uncomfortable truths that were sometimes rooted in anger and that sometimes rooted in anger and that sometimes scared people but for young people like me, that made us feel validated and heard. —— rapp. you write quite a lot about rap and iam you write quite a lot about rap and i am interested in it because brie, your main character in on the come up, when she had an incident at school where she felt she had been really unfairly treated by security and in really unfairly treated, she wrote about. i'm not going to wrap

it, i'm going to read it. the's what you expect... there is a word that i can't use, that begins with b. a lot of people reading that in the fiction but also in real life will think that is typical, that is black kids using bad language, projecting an extremely aggressive image. exactly, but what brie means by that and what the book sets out to do is to show that this is the image that so to show that this is the image that so many of us are put on these kids and this is what we say we expect out of the and then we have a music industry that awards that sort of behaviour, and it is one giant big machine that is leading to this image that we are forgetting that actual kids in the midst of this and we are relying on stereotypes and assumptions as opposed to looking at them as real people, so when she says the picture you painted, i frame, meaning this is exactly what you expect out of me, so i'm going to say it because that is what you are expecting but that does not mean thatis are expecting but that does not mean that is me. it is sort of weary resignation and away. it is and in

some ways it is almost her giving up ina some ways it is almost her giving up in a sense. -- in a way. let slip that feeling inside of young black people around and let's think of star, again the more conformist one, the one he was looking to avoid confrontation and most of her daily life. star has with the parents what i think life. star has with the parents what ithinka life. star has with the parents what i think a lot of black people call the talk, when they reach sort of teenage orjust before the parents ta ke teenage orjust before the parents take them to one side and save look, this is how you have to behave in front of authority but in particular, in front of the police. did you have that talk?” particular, in front of the police. did you have that talk? i did and i got a cousin who was a cop, my cousin was a pretty well—known cop injackson, mississippi, and he understood that some of his fellow officers would not only me the same way he did because of the colour of my skin, so he sat me down one day and told me where to keep my hands, how to react, how to behave, don't speak too loud, yes sir, no sir, yes man, no man in every single

situation, so i got the talk from him. hasn't made a difference in your life? we discussed a lot how your life? we discussed a lot how you deal with emotion and anger in daily life, when it comes to dealing with authority, particularly the police and in the context of all of the shooting of unarmed black people we have seen in the united states in recent yea rs we have seen in the united states in recent years and the theory that has it affected you? hello you know, the thing about the talk that i am realising and what side is that it no longer feels like it can be applied. -- you know. i look at someone applied. -- you know. i look at someone like philando castile, who did everything he was supposed to do, but then he died. i now have pa rents do, but then he died. i now have parents coming to me saying i gave my kids the talk but then they sought philando castile, so what do ido sought philando castile, so what do i do now? in the movie, we quoted an actual activist, she once said is ha rd to actual activist, she once said is hard to be unarmed when your blood, this is the weapon they fear the

most. what he means by that is the assumptions and internal buyers, that gives them more of a reason to see you as a threat than any weapon you can hold. and that is the frustration, but i have hope because more people are becoming aware and more people are becoming aware and more people are calling these things out and more people are calling for accountability, that maybe just maybe we will eventually see change. interesting, you say people are calling for accountability and the question is how far you go in the demand for change. not long ago on the show, we spoke to a rapper, who is very intimately involved in the black lives matter movement, and he uses this language, he says quote, the police are at war with us, i am an advocate, he says, of militant, direct action in terms of nonviolent protest. so the question i guess view is in your books and in your own life, how militant do you believe you can legitimately be? you know, these days it feels like you have to be a little bit more but for

me personally, i do not see myself necessarily as militant. i see myself, if nothing else, i want to see myself as active, however that may be and what i mean by that is if thatis may be and what i mean by that is if that is me using my article things out, if that is me using my article attention to things, they maybe just maybe it can help some change. i have nothing but love and respect for the people who out the front line in doing militant work for me personally as someone who, my passion is writing books and my passion is writing books and my passion is writing books and my passion is giving kids amused to see themselves in a world that often tries to tell them who they are before they ever open their mouths, thatis before they ever open their mouths, that is where my passion lies and that is where my passion lies and thatis that is where my passion lies and that is what i focus on. i am focusing on this new generation of leaders to because the kids of today are going to be politicians were due twitter accounts tomorrow. so that is the way you feel about it, you really thinking to yourself if i can get inside the minds of these kids, it is really going to matter because they are the next generation of

community leaders, politicians, whatever. absolutely, take that very seriously and i think that they empathy now. there is an academic who describes them as being either mirrors or sliding doors, all the equally important to young people now so that when they become young adults, they have more empathy and better views of themselves. your problem is going to be if you become so sort of controversial, that sounds like a weak word in a while, you push the limits of what you write about to a degree where there is going to be a reaction among some in america, just thinking for example about the one texas city that tried to ban your books in the schools because of quote, inappropriate language, pervasive vulgarity and racially insensitive language, and then in south carolina, police union who tried to get your books banned from reading this because of quote, and indoctrination of distrust of the police. so there are forces that are getting riled up by what you are writing. yeah, but all my heroes face the same to some capacity. ——

face. doctor king is the most celebrated activist of all time it when doctor king was alive, he was not celebrated, why? because he made people uncomfortable. to change come some discomfort, so the fact that they say that usually comes some people have not read the book and i will say that there are 89 instances of the f—word in the hate u give, but last year, over 800 people lost their lives in police brutality. i wish that that school district and that police union will more angry about that than they are about the number of swear words in my book. every time this happens, young people speak up and speak out for the book and teachers do as well, they say no, this book is changing minds in respect lives and creating empathy, we need it. so they can try to fight against it and use their discomfort to keep them from actually experiencing it, but for me asa actually experiencing it, but for me as a writer i can't worry about that, i want to tell the stories that, i want to tell the stories

that kids need and whether that makes others uncomfortable, that is on them, not me. again, it cuts to different ways because in the one hand, you're being castigated by someone hand, you're being castigated by someone in authority and it has to be said they are usually white authorities, who do not like of the messages, but on the other side, there is nuance and your stories which shows us that there are good cops as well as bad cops, it shows us cops as well as bad cops, it shows us that there are screwed up communities where that people make terrible, selfish decisions, sometimes driven by drugs or greed or whatever. and i just sometimes driven by drugs or greed or whatever. and ijust wonder whether even in the black community, in your own community injackson, mississippi, there have been people have said to you you know what, you are portraying us in a bad light, your focus on the damage the drugs does, bad decisions that people make, particularly frankly men in families who walk away from their responsibilities, you are portraying ofa responsibilities, you are portraying of a negative image of particularly the blackmail. -- blackmail. you

know, i have not gotten that because you have a character like the dad in the hate u give, maverick, he was a wonderful black father, who was there and is involved. i have had so many black men in particular say thank you for that. but black male. we seen on the come up, the's father u nfortu nately lost his we seen on the come up, the's father unfortunately lost his life due to bad decisions and my goal without was to show young kids have dealt with that how to grief a little bit better. every time i do a negative image, it is to show the human part of this image. you have a character like ray's aunt who is involved in gangs. she makes bad decisions at times. i also want to show you the person. the problem with stereotypes as they don't humanise people. myjob as a writer is to humanise people. i haven't done anything about the negative, the celebration of people like maverick. even some's brother,

seven. it strikes me as quite autobiographical. the fact that it was women who dominated your upbringing, rather than men. was women who dominated your upbringing, ratherthan men. 0ne thing i also know about you is you had a tough time at school, a really tough time. and you guys, i think, really quite seriously depressed. yes, absolutely. what took you to that place? it was bullying. i was bullied a lot. but i dealt with that through middle school. a lot of it was from my peers who, some of them, i guess, werejealous of my circumstances. it is sad to say, but we we re circumstances. it is sad to say, but we were kids, some of my classmates went through traumatic things. i didn't, in that sense. i had my mum who was a stable force in my life, whereas some of my classmates didn't. although my dad wasn't involved i had my grandmother. we had a 2—parent household. we went

through hardships, but we had them. some of my classmates did not have that. how bad did it get to you at school? it was pretty bad. so bad that my mum pulled me out of school and homeschooled me. sometimes it was daily harassment and things like that. it affected me mentally in a lot of ways. but i am thankful that i had lot of ways. but i am thankful that ihada lot of ways. but i am thankful that i had a great support system that helped me through that. that is why i say when it comes to bullying i was lucky because i had adults who we re was lucky because i had adults who were listening to me when i told them that there was a problem. more kidney that. does make more kids need that. another fascinating you wa nt need that. another fascinating you want in your work is relationships between a black young people and white young people, because it's never entirely straightforward. there are strong friendships but there are also under misunderstanding, mistrust, and suspicion, on both sides. yeah. have you got really close and good white friends that you have had very long in your life? yes. absolutely, absolutely. some characters are based on real—life people and

experiences i have had with real—life friends. and it has always been interesting just discussing the things that make us uncomfortable, discussing stuff like race. i mean, all of us at some point or another get a bit uncomfortable talking about it. i have had friends i am able to talk about these things with and we are able to create a safe space, save conversations to be wrong at time. it is so interesting. there is one great telling element in the relationship between starr we keep talking about starr because she is the central character of the hate u give, and a longtime friend of hers, hayley. starr at one point instagram is a picture and a story about emmett till, the poor black young boy who was alleged back, i believe them in the 1950s, and he became so much of the suffering of black communities at the time. her friends, hayley, the white friends, just couldn't handle the fact starr that was sending her this image, this horrible image of a young boy

being lynched. and it became a huge issue, unspoken issue in their friendship, which, in the end, died. do you think why people struggle sometimes in america to be confronted with the realities of racism? 0h confronted with the realities of racism? oh yeah, for sure. i have come across instances where it seems as though people are more afraid of being called racist than of actually being called racist than of actually being racist. and the thing is, racism slips into our language sometimes in different ways that we don't recognise. you know, whether it be through micro— aggressions or this or that, but there have been insta nces this or that, but there have been instances where people are like "i don't want to see that". but by ignoring it went up in the position we are in now, especially in america, where this has been happening all along, but nobody wa nted happening all along, but nobody wanted to acknowledge that it had been happening and this is why we are at the point where at right now. let me, if i may, and a slightly more political territory with me. we have talked a lot about the vixen and as new ones and it is fascinating. but you are also an american who watches day by day how

politics unfolds in your country. you saw the election of the first president, barack 0bama, some black people in america are now saying you know what, all that talk a post— racial america was so much bs. it was in some ways an illusion. how do you make sense of barack 0bama leading to donald trump? when people would say we are in post— racial america i would love, because the fa ct america i would love, because the fact is this man, 0bama, he was criticised for every small thing. just think about it for a second. if 0bama did half the stuff that donald trump has done, they would have gotten him out of office quickly. that's just fact. he would not have been the first black president for long. we are not in a post— racial america. we were in a comfortable for a lot of people america. what i mean by that is there is a joke in the movie get out who said if 0bama

had run from the time i would have voted for him. the bad as i voted for him, i support him. you not addressing the issues that people who aren't 0bama with in this country. it is, 0bama as president gave a lot of us hope, but we still have a long way to go in america. there is a professor at princeton, works in the african affairs studies department, and eagle adaay, he has for so long been hidden or wilfully ignored is now in the era of donald trump out in the open". he says americans will ultimately have to decide whether or not this country is going to remain a racist. is that the way you see it, too?|j is going to remain a racist. is that the way you see it, too? i do. but i do think a person plays a role. the way he speaks, the things that he says, the things that he believes have created, have given a lot of people, who are bigots, validation. he has but —— validated a lot of the

sentiments. he validated either by saying things or not saying things. when there have been incidences of, for instance, the incident where the gentleman save the people in the waffle house shooting it was a black gentleman, not once did the president ever congratulate him or give him any sort of acknowledgement, not that he needed it, but not once. if we have incidents like the one in dc with the kid who was wearing the make america great again had, all of a sudden the president was speaking out in defence of him. we have a president who only wants to represent people who think like him and who look like him. you have been described, i don't know if you like this or not, you have been described as the african—american voice of your generation. it seems to me that puts quite a burden, quite a pressure upon you. do you feel co mforta ble pressure upon you. do you feel comfortable with that third?|j don't. comfortable with that third?” don't. and why i say that, i'd rather be seen as a microphone for this generation, an for them. i'd rather them the ability to speak up

and speak out for themselves. i want to give them the confidence to do that. i want to celebrate them in a way that they feel as though they can and they should. when you get a reaction, particularly from young black readers, how satisfying is it when it seems that you have with them ina when it seems that you have with them in a tract where they want to read more and they want to get more active in their communities? —— track. it means everything to me. i have won a lot of awards but i would trade all of those in for those reactions, honestly. you know, for kids who often feel that they aren't seen kids who often feel that they aren't seen and they aren't heard, for them to feel seen and heard through my book, and then celebrated, that's everything. i hope it makes a difference in their lives in some way. yesterday, here in london, i had a young lady who came up to me and she said "may i shake your hand was great. i want to say one day that i should be had of my inspiration. for me that was the best thing i could have heard in an entire year. if i am inspiring them in anyway celebrating them and i

have done myjob. in anyway celebrating them and i have done my job. angie thomas, thank you very much indeed for being on hardtalk. thank you, thank you. it was a pleasure. hello there. good morning. at the moment it feels like winter has made a comeback. we have had everything thrown at us in the last 2a hours. lots of weather watchers pictures of big hailstorms affecting the uk. of course, the sunshine coming out in between has led to some lovely rainbow pictures as well. we're seeing a short sharp burst of really cold and that has come down from the arctic. you can see how that colder air has plunged southwards and with all those shower clouds.

the cloud that is in the north sea is coming back into scotland and northern england, which is why we are seeing some sleet and some snow. and it's quite slippery over some high level routes. icy patches around the temperatures in many places close to orjust below freezing. a concert start really adding to wednesday. pretty miserable morning across the far north of england and scotland. some rain, sleet snow across the hills. that rain clears away from northern england, clears into northern ireland, mostly rain. some heavy showers in the south—east and east anglia. some hail and thunder possible. but many central and eastern parts it should not be too windy. the showers should hang around a bit. it will be windy in the north and west of the uk. strong to gale force winds. these are the temperatures, 7—9 degrees. colder in the winter. especially northern and western scotland, the far south—west of england, and the channel islands, nearer to 2—4 degrees. that is how it will fill in the wind. low pressure dominating the weather at the moment.

which is why we're seeing all these downpours. it's cutting off that supply of colder air on thursday. that weather front wrapped around the low. that is the focus of more persistent rain at this stage across northern scotland. somewhat or whether telling back into south—west england, moving into wales, and into the west country, too. a few heavy showers elsewhere. a fair bit of sunshine around. not a bad day for northern england, southern scotland, and those temperatures are creeping up to around 9 or 10 degrees. as we head was the end of the week and into the weekend, it's an improving sort of story. it will feel warmer. many places will be dry. and there will be sunshine around as well. we've got our low pressure from thursday into friday, still anchored to the south—west of the uk. but instead of a northerly wind that were getting at the moment, we will find more of a south or south wind. that means the temperatures will get a boost. we still have the threat of some

downpours in the south—west of england, wales, perhaps into north—west of england. eastern scotland and eastern england probably having a dry day on friday, with some sunshine at times. those temperatures continuing to climb up to 13 or even 14 celsius.