hello and welcome. this is bbc news. ‘hong i'm lewis vaughan jones. view of hong kong harbour with ferries coming and going, a lot of mass demonstrations against president 0mar al bashir traffic low. we have been admiring of sudan have continued into the night. the view here. let me tell you who protestors have for the first time converged on the national army headquarters in the capital is on our panel. victor from khartoum, close to the presdient‘s official residence. beijing, the vice president for the centre for china and globalisation, they're calling on the military one of the most influential think tojoin them in their campaign ta nks one of the most influential think tanks in the country. for several to oust president bashir who's ruled for nearly thirty years. yea rs tanks in the country. for several years he was the interpreter for the 0ur africa editor, previous chinese leader. susan is a fergal keane, has this report. the opposition wanted the biggest demonstration yet vetera n and it looks as if previous chinese leader. susan is a veteran american diplomat and until july last year was the assistant they have achieved it. secretary of state for asian and pacific affairs. we're also by alvin, the leader of the civic pride party, one of the major democracy parties in hong kong. and parada, born in india and based in singapore where he is a strategic global a nalyst where he is a strategic global analyst on asia advising governments and corporations around the world. welcome to your wall. —— to you all.

let's dive straight in and take our first question. does the panel think that president trump's aggressive approach to trade with china, as seen by the ongoing back load of tariffs, will generate benefits for the us in the long—term?” tariffs, will generate benefits for the us in the long-term? i think trade war is a bad option for china as well as for the united states. tariffs do not work for the fundamental interest of the united states and it is destructive of the national interest of the united states. it is better for china and the us to figure out a way to put the us to figure out a way to put the tariff wall behind them and move on to more constructive engagement and dialogue. in the world today, neither china nor the united states can live without the other side. it is better to get along. susan, will it generate benefits in the long—term?

it generate benefits in the long-term? i think that basically the tactics can be called into question but the real issue is will china continue on a path of opening and reform as was the agreement when we negotiated china's wto entrance in the early 2000. what we have seen in the early 2000. what we have seen in the past decade and a half is a retrenchment on that front. a question that has come up about that stop the us administration's approach to the trade situation now has been so aggressive because we have not seen much of a reaction nor much of a response to this question, will you continue to open and reform? so china is not doing enough. you don't like president trump's tactics you think his objectives are correct? right. i'm sure you will reply to that in a moment victor. china can pursue a slow process of opening reform as susan advocate but it can also

pursue, in the long—term, a strategy of permanent substitution which is to say that given the volatility in relation between china and the us, what china has begun to do and will accelerate doing, is to try to circumvent and avoid importing critical technologies from the united states. it will start to acquire semiconductors and chips not from the leading american companies that have been the supplier so far but rather from taiwan, from south korea, from japan. it may even do the same thing for air planes and industrial good. so the longer i believe that china will pursue a policy of permanent substitution as much as possible and that will strongly harm american trade interest. alvin? trade war is not only about donald trump is not the answer. trump is not the reason for all this. he is the voice of the people. so if american people are not happy with what is going on then be it donald trump or be it anybody else, they will only continue these

tactics that will harm the united states in the future because of trade relationships related to the greatest economy in the world. of course, china will have a lot to do. i echo susan. china has to convince the rest of the world that they are a responsible player on the world stage. susan, could you elaborate on what you said? that china are not doing what they should be doing and if they did do that it would ease trade war tensions. i think that the us has always been interested in china's success. as you said, this is the two countries need each other. the two economies need each other. the two economies need each other. this issue of separation that you mentioned is in anyone's interest, not in the us nor in chinese interest. but we need to find a way to create a level playing field for global trade and shore up the global trading system which i think is in major danger of being

undermined by china's approach to its state intervention in the economy. she says you are not playing by the rules. economy. she says you are not playing by the ruleslj economy. she says you are not playing by the rules. i think china is moving more or less in the overall direction charted 30 years ago and greater opening to the rest of the world and greater reform is fundamentally in china's own interest. in china we do not want to close up. we want to open up more. we want to engage with the united states more. we want to be friends with the united states. therefore, i think if anyone doubts that china will not continue the reform, he or she is wrong and i can pledge and promise you that china is moving in the right direction of greater opening and greater reform. but we need actions. notjust opening and greater reform. but we need actions. not just words. opening and greater reform. but we need actions. notjust words. we need actions. notjust words. we need actions. notjust words. we need actions. we go to our next question. i would like to ask a question. i would like to ask a question about huawei. the us is closing a door to huawei while the

uk and germany are open to doing business with the company. what did the panel think about the us asking other countries to reject wildly over security issues? if they approved innocent by us courts what impact would that have on the us relationship with china —— are proved. what do the panel think about the us lobbying other countries to reject huawei because of concerns about security issues? victor? if the united states government is really serious about its allegations about huawei, come up its allegations about huawei, come up with the evidence. in the united states, as with western civilisation, the presumption of innocenceis civilisation, the presumption of innocence is the core of the political system. if you take away that pillar then it will collapse the whole civilisation. therefore for huawei come up with the evidence, substantially your

accusation with real evidence otherwise nobody will really believe you and that is what is happening in germany and many other countries —— substantial weight. huawei operates in about 175 countries in the world. therefore anything with a decency of mind, look for yourself with your own eyes. therefore i think we need to give huawei the benefit of the doubt. anyone who accuses huawei, come up with the evidence, the real substantiated evidence. it's about the accusations. the accusations are about huawei carrying out subversive 01’ about huawei carrying out subversive or disruptive activities when countries use their telecommunications equipment. alvin. evidence is very important when it comes to convincing your allies to join you. but on the other hand,

china has to rethink what is going on, why is huawei being targeted. perhaps over the past years china fails to demonstrate the respect of intellectual property '5 and that is one of the grounds why international companies are having this accusation against huawei. i think this idea of technological decoupling is dangerously shortsighted. it will damage the us, it will damage china, it will damage the entire ecosystem. the story about huawei needs to be seen the story about huawei needs to be seenin the story about huawei needs to be seen ina the story about huawei needs to be seen in a markets context, with european countries the reasons way germany, for example, is not simply going to play along with us administration pressure to block huawei, is not because they don't share concerns about security. they do. every country wants to make sure there is data integrity. the reason they are cautious about it and want to move forward is because they want

to move forward is because they want to have that latest technology and affordable cost to increase the speed of that data provision, growth and services economy. if you look at how germany is managing it, it is quite progressive. they are saying huawei will have to share their source code in cyber security labs in germany. it would be a good role model for other countries and helped to push back sufficiently on huawei that we can solve this issue around whether or not enough evidence has been provided by the issues. huawei has been providing technology to the united kingdom for about ten years, more than a decade. will this not cause problems. mike pompeo, us secretary of state has said european countries that use huawei, it makes it more difficult for us, the americans, to partner alongside these countries. you are beginning to see divisions, aren't you? it is likely to backfire for a number of reasons. one of its, there already isa reasons. one of its, there already is a sufficient large volume of huawei infrastructure in many us companies and indeed worldwide, 170

countries, huawei has about 30— 35% of global market share. we can't turn back the clock on that. on the other hand, japan and australia have listened to the lobbying by the americans and saying i'm a look, we are concerned about security. victor, fundamentally it comes down to the fact that people think that there could be state interference or there could be state interference or there is a state interference in huawei's activities and if the chinese government the authorities we re chinese government the authorities were to say to huawei we want you to carry out these kind of activities and so on that they could not say no. no, i don't think so. ithink huawei is a very independent company. and also huawei is the leading company in the world in terms of 5g. allow me to make one point. 5g is not only 5g. it has at least two aspects to it, the base stations, the infrastructure part, as well as the applications that will be added on to the 5g. now, if

you don't develop your 5g network in a timely manner at a reasonable cost will not only lose out on the first initiative, that is the infrastructure, but you'll also lose out on all the applications. an countries which are at advantage than yours will gain double advantage. they not only have the better 5g network, but all the 5g applications. that will really... transportation... transportation, medical care, self drive cars, learning. what i think about the world is changing in the 5g is definitely coming. no—one, no country can stop it. that is better, embrace 5g rather than fighters. susan, the fact of the matter is china is well ahead with its 5g kit, starting to roll it out extensively in the coming years and so on. america is pitifully behind on this.

what are you offering instead? that isa what are you offering instead? that is a good question. i think that is one of the reasons why i would agree with you. this will backfire on the us administration. you can'tjust go around the world talking about how people shouldn't take some opportunity. you have to provide an alternative opportunity. i think the issue of rolling out 5g in a timely manner, as victor says, is really important. very quickly, do you believe that huawei and then with 5g being rolled out, could be used for subversive or disruptive purposes, racking systems by the chinese? let's be clear that we already live in that world. we live in a world where we have, global cyber war is a protest —— where we have, global cyber war is a protest — — perpetual where we have, global cyber war is a protest —— perpetual phenomenon. we have a geopolitics of the internet. 0ther pence justified number once we have been discussing? it would be justified against huawei and against any other country, whether it is that state run sort of security apparatus and technology like the

american five eyes network or the revelation of the american nsa activity. this is a global cyber war. we know north korea and iran have capabilities, rossel. we are obviously focused on huawei as a company because it is so present —— rosol company because it is so present —— rosol. we would be naive to think it was only a huawei issue. let us go to my next question. that isjoey. the chinese government's one belt 0ne road initiative has helped development of the eurasia area but still some people criticise it. so what's your take on that? thank you. the one belt 0ne road. you are nodding. it involves more than 80 countries and something like 1 trillion us dollars has been spent. i think that is 1000 billion. a lot of money. the belt and road initiative is one of the most significant diplomatic activities of

the 215t century. it addresses a very large market failure in infrastructure finance. for this we have to give china a lot of credit. for decades multilateral organisations did not provide enough capital, lending, risk insurance for countries that are postcolonial or post—soviet to build the infrastructure and their populations have doubled or tripled in size. the belt and road initiative is important in providing that infrastructure for these countries to connect to each other and trade more. either way, it to connect to each other and trade more. eitherway, it is not hypothetical. we already see very significant hypothetical. we already see very significa nt benefits that hypothetical. we already see very significant benefits that investment banks and research organisations have measured in the bilateral trade bonds between many pairs of countries, notjust bonds between many pairs of countries, not just china. bonds between many pairs of countries, notjust china. to me it kicks off a process that will expand decades in terms of eurasian integration. it has been happening since the collapse of the soviet union. it has been happening for 30 years. it has rightly been criticised in some ways because china is charging higher levels of interest rates that are called

nonconcessional, which means higher than the market rate. but what we need to see as a response is more competition in that market for infrastructure finance to bring those rates down. not to compete directly with china per se, because, again, the act of providing infrastructure finance is a good thing. but to create a marketplace for capital so that the costs come down. albin. this is an opportunity for a loss of countries. we have to remind these countries and government that you are taking advantage from china, but how will you repay it? we have seen a number of examples. pakistan, malaysia, for example, is rejecting it because the interest rate is too high and the costis interest rate is too high and the cost is too high they cannot repay it. so we have to ask china again if they are genuinely trying to help developing countries they have to lower interest rates and they have to make it more transparent. victor?

i think on experience we have benefited from in china is that if you really want to make riches build a road. in the last 40 years we have built many, many roads. i think this is one reason why china has transformed itself. the one belt 0ne road initiative is very much focused on an activity. the world needs to be more interconnected. and if you look at the 100 countries also for the belt and road initiative, better connectivity of all kinds, and it is not only roads, highways, et cetera, but it is also financial connectivity and telecommunications connectivity. that is absolutely necessary. so anyone who doubts that come up with a better proposal. but, victor, what say to alvin, he set up very carefully what the criticisms are the overburden of debt and the fa ct are the overburden of debt and the fact that, you know, you have got countries now which, really, haven't got the means in order to repay these very expensive loans that they have had to take out from china to

build these projects was blue alvin a p pa re ntly build these projects was blue alvin apparently has a point. however, if you don't develop... so he has a point. you're telling me that he has got a point. you want to look at him and say he has a point. alvin has a point which i cannot agree. for example, if your family cannot afford the kid to go to school, you still need to set the kid to school, evenif still need to set the kid to school, even if you borrow a lot. because if you have the right investment then you have the right investment then you need to do that... it is not just about building. you have made it, you say, build a road, under the initiative, sometimes it is called the new silk route, you also acquire assets, ports and other infrastructure in these countries, it is not just infrastructure in these countries, it is notjust about building. and thatis it is notjust about building. and that is also creating a lot of criticisms. alvin. if the borrower

country cannot repay the loan china will take out the assets. in assets china is basically acquiring land by using their own money. so is that fair, is that something that is beneficial to the developing country? can ijust butting on this? i think basically the us government's attitude, which is very reflexively negative about almost every belt and road initiative, is wrong. this is an opportunity, alvin is right. is right that we need infrastructure, and parag is right. but there are adjustments that need to be made. this is part of china's soft power projection. maybe it is pa rt of soft power projection. maybe it is part of china's military power projection. people are suspicious and there are enough negative examples to feel that suspicion. china needs to take lessons from other countries but experiences from around the world and make sure that lending is done sustainably, standards, at lending is done sustainably, standards, et cetera. this is

legitimate. exactly. legitimate. one comment we have had on social media from nairobi in kenya. he said i am a worried man. china dishes out loads, driving more into abject poverty because the funds are misappropriated or looted. he says it here the newly built nairobi to mombasa railway is operating at a loss despite the hype that it would bea game loss despite the hype that it would be a game changer. lots of criticisms that this programme was grossly overpriced and that it could have been done at a much, much lower cost and now can you finds it has to repay this massive amount of money —— kenya. repay this massive amount of money -- kenya. there are many examples of the negative split they far outweigh the negative split they far outweigh the positives. what is happening in africa and countries like kenya, you cannot blame china for the efficient utilisation of that infrastructure. your blame local firms, government, corruption, the fact that they are

not maximising their resources. there are many things many people or entities need to be blamed for underperformance, not just china. china is, infact, giving kenya an enormous opportunity to connect to the fastest—growing zone of trade on earth, which is the indian ocean, andi earth, which is the indian ocean, and i would expect that we should put our pressure on the kenyan government and east african governments to use it to the maximum. building in the first place was grossly overpriced was the point there. we should get more countries involved in this belt and road initiative together with china because if we co—operate and elevate the standards and have more oversight and accountability it is a great opportunity. alvin, do you wa nt to great opportunity. alvin, do you want to revise what you think? transparency and accountability is everything. many countries have a role to play. if a country is corrupt and china is taking advantage of that. if a country is democratic then it is very difficult

to corrupt. but at least china is doing it. that was the point that parag was making. nobody else is doing it. china has poured william's and billions into building infrastructure all over the world. they are doing it. that's why i say it is an opportunity. but at what cost? have you seen china push back, saying no, you must be heavily indebted? you have not seen them do that. in places like malaysia and sri lanka myanmar, pakistan and others china has written these offices and has absorbed the pushback and blowback because it says in the long run it is important these projects get done. victor is smiling now. you smile a lot anyway but that is a big smile. it is expanding. thank you. somebody brought up the issue of soft power. we have a question related on that.

let's hear a few at once. my question is what do you think of when it comes to soft power of china? and jonathan? since china is a big economic global power shouldn't it have more economic responsibility towards terrorism and other human rights causes? so what do you think of in terms of soft power? —— terrorism and humanitarian causes? chinese counterparts of mine a lwa ys causes? chinese counterparts of mine always expressed frustration about developing chinese soft power. they see the us as having great soft power. they think it is about hollywood and other things. the reason why it has been difficult for china is because china has been largely focused on its internal

development, most of the manifestations of its actions in the world a re manifestations of its actions in the world are focused on developing china and there has not been a lot of attention paid to what we're doing for the rest of the world? the second question there. the other reason it has been hard for china to move on soft power is that it talks a lot about very positive things, building communities of common destiny, win—win solutions, mutual respect et cetera. but sometimes its actions do not quite measure up to those lofty words. and i think when people see this disconnect between the actions and the words then it raises a lot of suspicion that undercuts their ability to move out on soft power. that is why i think the belt and road is important, they need to shore up the credibility of criticisms. alvin. those two questions. could china do more in terms of humanitarian assistance and fighting terror? nowadays we don't talk about soft power. we talk about shop power. —— shop power. it is

like china is using sharp power to influence policy. in hong kong we experience it daily and we could about that shortly. china is one of the biggest countries in the world... what do you mean by sharp power. elbows? they have centres around the world to try and influence different policies and different universities and they try to use money, the belt and road initiative is one example, to influence other countries policies. this is the sort of power we are talking about. of court, regarding the second question, the second largest economy in the world we do expect china to take up more responsibility in the world. not looking inward simply at domestic issues. victor, pushing chinese ideology through these conflict... the smile disappeared off his face.

i notice that. whenever i the smile disappeared off his face. i notice that. wheneverl hear someone or a government afraid of the confucius institute, i cannot help but trouble. why? why should you be afraid of the chinese language institution that teaches the people how to study chinese? i think this reflect the sense of inferiority of that institution, of that government, which wants to have a problem with the confucius institution. the chinese institution teaching chinese to foreigners is going to happen more and more in the world and more countries and more people will study chinese. alvin, you seem to say that it is something very sinister. victor says it is not. why should not people learn... —— why shouldn't people learn how to speak mandarin and study confucius and be exposed to that ideology? speak mandarin and study confucius and be exposed to that ideology7m thatis

and be exposed to that ideology7m that is all they do then that is fine. but we have seen examples of them trying to interfere with different university policies and try to put pressure on domestic issues of other countries. so why is that? can you spell that out? what do you mean? you are pulling your punches. australia is one of the examples. we have seen cases in australia regarding sharp power. how to respond to that? australians other diehard military ally of the united states so it is faced with a quagmire. it has to follow the us geopolitically in military but it is really has china is the largest trading powerfor really has china is the largest trading power for the foreseeable future. australia needs to walk a fine line to not create more detriment to the fundamental interest of australia and the

australian people itself. it further alienates china. and the chinese people as a whole. if you were chinese tourists go to spend money in australia then it will be too late. it is not the chinese government, but the chinese people who will become more alienate it. china is too big a power to ignore. susan? you mentioned that australia is the military ally of the united states and replied that they are going to snap to and follow the us in everything. i think that the australians can take care of themselves but i think the issue, really, is that we have open societies and open democratic societies. china has a less democratic and less open society. the issue is that china is taking advantage of open societies to infiltrate or inappropriately interfere in the political process ina way interfere in the political process in a way that allows it to get a disproportionate advantage from that. the rug?

—— parag? -- parag? china's position in the world is not going to be based solely on what is has achieved and on prosperity for its own people. to be admired in the world mean that people also want to see the benefits you bring to them. so belt and road is critical for that. the confucius institute may be part of but fundamentally it comes down to the fa ct fundamentally it comes down to the fact that china is learning that its relationship with the outside world cannot just be government relationship with the outside world cannotjust be government to government. it must be government to people. and part of what has enhanced american image over the world is the presence of american culture and peace corps volunteers and so forth and they have been critical to giving a human face and interactions... china is quite good with that. humanitarian issues for capital and peacekeeping forces, it is the best contributor of the permanent members of the security council. and if that were more

publicly known, that would contribute to the image china has in the world, that it contributes funds for international peacekeeping and provides development assistance, structure finance. but the message must be communicated to people, not just to a government. an china has historically not done that well. it simply views countries as having the government represent them. so there needs to be a much more broad social outlook. 0ne needs to be a much more broad social outlook. one very important fact, the more that china invests in a country, by and large, around asia, the less that country tends to like china. right? there is an inverse correlation there because it is seen as heavy—handed and overbearing. i view that is unfortunate because some of this investment is very important. it creates jobs and does many things to help economy transform. china needs to ask why they are spending money and building fundamental building blocks of modernity for many countries that needed and yet they don't like us. 0ne needed and yet they don't like us. one part of the answer... why do you think that is. that you do not get

any kudos for the work you do? in china we have a saying, within seven miles there will be no saint. so it is true, globally, i would say. 0nce china goes to a country, once china invests a nd china goes to a country, once china invests and sets up a country et cetera, of course it will be much better if you can generate goodwill. but sometimes it will take time. let me give you an example. look at the bridge between hong kong, macau and china mainland. there are critics, many people say it will not make money. but i am sure in due time it will create so much benefit for the people in this part of china that eve ryo ne people in this part of china that everyone will be proud of that. and people will like you. alvin. you can never purchase respect, you can only earn it. this is my answer in response to parag. world is

wondering what kind of rising power is going to be and what it will use its power for. so far there are positive aspect and people can see those and there are some negative aspect. but it is hard to say, still. i think the jury is still out and they are waiting to see if they can be convinced that china will use its power for lofty goals that it states in its beaches or is it going to bea states in its beaches or is it going to be a much more sharp elbowed bullying kind of approach once it gets more power? in the jury is still out? the jury is still out. we have talked about values and chinese values and we have a question here from social media saying that there is news coming out of the region about the yellow umbrella movement and peaceful protests that stem from the nature that hong kong no longer has the autonomy it was promised from china back in 1997. what is the international community doing about this as there appears to be very little condemnation. alvin, what is

your response? over the last 22 yea rs your response? over the last 22 years since hong kong was handed back to china from great britain at the beginning we expected much from china. we expected that china would respect us, would uphold the province is a stated very clearly in basic law. 0ne country, two systems, basically. a higher degree —— degree of respect. 0ver basically. a higher degree —— degree of respect. over 22 years we have not seen that. we have no democracy and we have seen further interference from china on our domestic issues. this is disappointing and this is one of the grounds and reasons why we have the occu py grounds and reasons why we have the occupy movement a few years ago. and now we expect china will understand and respect that hong kong... we are not an and respect that hong kong... we are notan ordinary and respect that hong kong... we are not an ordinary chinese city. if we can continue to become unique and that will not only benefit hong kong but also china. the umbrella

movement and the occupy movement we re movement and the occupy movement were about five or six years ago when many people, mainly young people here in hong kong were protesting against an erosion of their civic rights. victor, what is your response to alvin? beijing is not doing what it should be doing. hong kong is a democracy. they have rule of law as well as desire for greater democracy. and all these need to be fully respected. however, you cannot expect to have greater democracy if you undermine your rule of law. and this is exactly what the students in hong kong need to respect. respect the rule of law and then promote rated democracy. and i think if you look out of the window from the mainland puzzling perspective, this is a very vibrant democracy. in this sets a good example for people in the rest of china. will you get democracy in

china? of course. the sooner the better. but it takes time in china. it takes time. i think the former chinese leader said without democracy you cannot have modernisation. so that should be the goal that we all bear in mind, if you are chinese. alvin. we have seen, we have heard thousands and thousands of times from the senior leaders of china that they respect democracy and they also wish to give democracies to hong kong and china. but what has been done? we have basically seen nothing over the last 20 years, not to mention that hong kong is going backwards in the sense that we have feared, that freedom of speech, for example, will be challenged. last year, for example, a senior financial times journalist was rejected from entering hong kong because he organised a forum for separatist ideas. why should you penalise a journalist for doing

that? that is not what hong kong stands for. can ijustjump in as an outside perspective? ithink stands for. can ijustjump in as an outside perspective? i think there is grave responsibility on both sides. the economy and prosperity of hong kong needs to be cherished along with its system, respected by beijing. the rule of law here is phenomenal. a model for the rest of china and as for this says, the sooner china gets there the better. protections of this kind are extremely important for business and other high functioning societies. so i think there should be, however, you know, cherishing of this model and not trying to do things that pushed too far. i think beijing's out lying this small independence party was a mistake. the band of the hong kong national party last year. this sort of group should be allowed

to flourish and say what they want and they are not a threat to beijing. andl and they are not a threat to beijing. and i think that hong kong infighting interpretations of its various legal decisions is probably damaging for hong kong in the long run. taiwan, china has begun to massively respect the enormous success of taiwan and hong kong and to this day i believe china can learn a great deal from the progress, the rule of law, the dynamism of the cultural society from taiwan and hong kong even as it becomes what a taiwanese diplomat told me, one country three systems is really what it is right now. however, to squelch that, to suppress it would not be good from china. a question from the floor from patrick. how does the panel

think hong kong needs to prepare for the future city of china when it is no longer an special administrative region. the basic law was going to last for 50 years, 2027. is on, going to another chinese city in 2027. i remember when it is in pink was talking about this issue with margaret thatcher and he said —— jie zheng ping. if hong kong does well in 50 years, why not another 50 yea rs in 50 years, why not another 50 years so i think the bottom line for people in hong kong is to do a good job rather than keep rocking the boat so you get another 50 years rather than becoming really a village in china because look at shanejen, village in china because look at shane jen, next to village in china because look at

shanejen, next to you,. when i visited the first time, it was really a fishing village and now it has a larger population, it gdp is in excess of hong kong and all the major companies huawei, and others flourishing across the border. hong kong deserves a better tomorrow not by promoting an independence of hong kong but really by being part of china, find out a way to develop and strike out for a better future. you heard the criticism about the lack of freedom of speech and expression and it was enshrined in the basic law for hong kong. it is abating meddling in hong kong affairs and destroying that one country to systems ? destroying that one country to systems? freedom of speech is so crucial however, from the chinese

perspective, i will never tolerate anyone preaching independence of hong kong. that is the bottom line. they have not talked about independence but democratic freedom. the chinese government bottom line is that independence of hong kong is not to be involved. we need to know where is the redline and try to develop all the potential is not by stepping on the redline... develop all the potential is not by stepping on the redline. .. they were not talking about independence but democratic freedoms like freedom of speech. i do not believe anyone used the word independence from china. you did not use it so far but do you wa nt to you did not use it so far but do you want to use independence? the large majority of hong kong people do not support that. the best way to countenance independence is to make sure you have good governance and keep your promises. hong kong people are not asking for the moon. when

someone mentioned rocking the boat, indeed someone is but not the hong kong people. if beijing respects the syste m kong people. if beijing respects the system and the unique quality of hong kong then everybody would be happy. all we are asking is what is guaranteed what is in the law, universal suffrage and freedom. we are not an ordinary city of china and if they allow hong kong to become unique than everybody would become unique than everybody would be happy and if they would be no problem. you want to be able to elect the chief executive, for example, greater independence for the judiciary. example, greater independence for thejudiciary. some people feel that independence there is eroded. and a high degree of autonomy. this is the kind of tolerance we expect. high degree of autonomy. this is the kind of tolerance we expectlj high degree of autonomy. this is the kind of tolerance we expect. i am not an expert in democracy but senator warren recently made a

proposal to abolish... the largest democracy in the world, they are still talking about electoral couege still talking about electoral college versus direct election... but they get a vote. listen, every country is different. hong kong is different and hong kong needs to proceed from here based on the realities on the ground. you cannot really think about all the fantasies and indulging in yourfantasies. stick to the rule of law and build a greater democracy for hong kong, not for example keep confusing yourselves and keeping cities surpass you again and again by leaps and bounds and you are left behind and bounds and you are left behind and probably the future is becoming and probably the future is becoming a fishing village. laughter. this beautiful harbour behind us and all these wonderful shiny builders could

be reduced to a fishing village, right! that will take some doing. a final question from gladys. my question is, what do panellists understand why the chinese dream and do you think it could lead to a global nightmare? india also has a dream. in south east asia has dreams, japan has dreams for itself. whatever the chinese dream is or is not, it must find a way to reconcile itself that everyone is entitled to a dream and everyone is a place in this world and it has to be some kind of harmony. when china talks about a community of shared interests, whatever phrase it wants to use, it must accommodate others as much as it expects others to accommodate china and that is the way to prevent the chinese dream from becoming a global nightmare.

way to prevent the chinese dream from becoming a global nightmarelj from becoming a global nightmare.” think that one of the questions and it feeds parag from's answer, to what extent china is willing to acce pt what extent china is willing to accept restraint. after the second world war, there were institutions to prevent a cataclysm or conflict between major powers. some would say the us has not submitted to the international system recently and we can debate about that but the question really is going to be, how does china see the future of other countries's success and where is it willing to accept constrained and limits on its power to make that harmonious world they always talk about. what is the chinese dream and could lead to a global nightmare? on a personal and family level, they are similarto the a personal and family level, they are similar to the american dream. they want a better life, send kids

toa they want a better life, send kids to a better school, they probably wa nt to to a better school, they probably want to come shopping in hong kong and that is common to the american dream. 0n the government and country level i think it is a bit different. china does not want to be a bully, a superpower, for example, china does not want to be a hegemonic china wa nts to not want to be a hegemonic china wants to be respected by all the other countries like they need to be respected. everybody deserves a dream sol respected. everybody deserves a dream so i think that is all right. you can be japanese, chinese, american. everybody deserves to live better but as a country you have to understand the fact that why is everybody being harsh on you? as i mentioned a bit earlier, you cannot buy respect, you can only earn it and if that is your ideology than you have to hold it up and make sure that everybody is happy with what

you are doing unless you live in an isolationist world. i think that is a good point to conclude this edition of global questions. we have been discussing china's place on the world stage. a huge topic with so many aspects. it excites a lot of debate and brings polarised opinion. i hope we brought some balance to the perspective from our panel and our audience. i thank you all and all of those who are watching and listening to this programme, wherever you are in this world. goodbye and see you next time. applause hello. it is turning out to be a weekend

of mixed fortunes in terms of the weather. some of us are keeping the cloud through the day on sunday. there will also be a few showers around, particularly in the east. but still some spells of sunshine, especially further west. now, quite a murky start to sunday morning. it will be frost—free with temperatures first thing around about 4—8 degrees. we keep that cloud across parts of scotland with some outbreaks of drizzly rain. eastern england too fairly cloudy with some heavy showers moving in as we head on into the afternoon. best of any spells of sunshine will be across parts of northern ireland, wales down towards the south—west of england too. in the south it's reasonably mild with temperatures aroud13—17 celsius. further north, across the northern half of the uk in fact, we're looking at around about 9—12 degrees. it's going to be mild in london, 16 celsius or so, but for the boat races in the afternoon there is a chance that we could catch some of those heavy potentially thundery showers so something we're keeping quite a close eye on, those showers through sunday afternoon. into the evening hours, the showers drift their way a little bit further west.

it is still a fairly cloudy picture across the country and, again, we are looking at largely frost—free conditions to start your monday morning. so monday will be something of a mixed picture in terms of the weather. we've still got some rain, particularly in the south, across parts of southern england, south wales too. this is a weak weather front which is going to be quite slow—moving across the region. but further north, actually a different picture here. we've got much more sunshine for much of northern england, northern ireland and scotland too. temperature here around 10—14 degrees or so. further south, we're likely to see some slightly milder weather. moving through now, monday night on into tuesday, we've still got this weather front which is goingto be lingering across the uk. some uncertainty about exactly how far north that's going to be. low pressure sitting out towards the south—west. with an easterly breeze, we could well see cloud lingering around the east coast for a time. still some rain on tuesday on that weakening weather front. most likely across southern england into wales, but it could be a little bit further north. at the moment it looks like much of scotland, northern ireland and northern

england should see some sunshine. 8—11 celsius. 14 or 15 degrees in that milder air but you've got the cloud and the rain further south. looking ahead towards the middle part of the week. we've got that milder airfora time, particularly in the south, but you'll notice the blue colours starting to edge their way a bit further south so things are set to turn a little bit colder as we look through the middle part of the coming week. lots of dry weather on the cards but you will also notice a fair amount of cloud through wednesday and on into thursday too. bye— bye.