so in today's programme, we focus on how religion impacts our world. my guests — catherine pepinster, former editor of catholic weekly newspaper, the tablet. african affairs analyst dr vincent magombe, nesrine malik, of the guardian newspaper, and canadian writer and broadcasterjeffrey kofman. welcome to you all. i started talking about religious affiliations, let's quickly go round the table. muslim. christian, practising catholic. catholic with a little bit ofan catholic. catholic with a little bit of an african touch. i'm jewish but culturally, not practising. let's deal with why religion is still so powerful in our world. catherine, do you want to start? there are various reasons for the individual. having a

religion means people's search for meaning is perhaps fulfilled, they find values and community and hope. for many, it is about the fact of life is not all that there is, for individuals religion matters greatly. history means religions, some religions have become huge institutions and that is a whole other ball game. jeffrey, as he no longer practising djoum act, that you find it surprising religion is still as powerful as it is? people search for a commonality and community and i would like to believe that we all in some form, whatever our values, seek to follow oui’ whatever our values, seek to follow our better angels and i think religion helps people do that, at its best. christianity is receding

in north america and europe, it is going elsewhere, islam, however, is the fastest growing religion, why do you think that is? the first is demographics, islamic generally overla ps demographics, islamic generally overlaps with countries where there isa high overlaps with countries where there is a high birth rate, there is an additional element that has been the case for, as far as i can remember, when i first realised it, was public 30 years ago, islam was also the only religion that was growing, not due to demographics, but due to conversion, there is a high degree of conversion to islam. i think in some areas it's because islam tends to, for example on indian subcontinent, tends to be adjacent to several other religions so there is intermarriage and lots of conversion because of intermarriage. the second thing is i think there is a very powerful and effective

proselytising element to islam, lots of funding behind lots of the religious schools and mosques and they do outreach into the community. which brings people into the religion. vincent, africa, almost any religion. vincent, africa, almost a ny class religion. vincent, africa, almost any class of its own in terms of people's commitment to their religion. whatever religion that is. the thing is, in africa you have to look at it from the historical perspective. when christianity came we had our own religions and own courts and things that are still there, we go to church, i am a very strong catholic, i go to church, but outside, where nobody sees me, i will still be worshipping my gods. worshipping what god is? traditional african gods. how do you do that? the nature of african religions is not like your religions when you go

to church and things like that, african religions are functional. in the g that you have a god for war, god for when children are born, there is some religious things you do, very functional. you harvest your produce, they will worship some god or goddess. african religions are very functional in nature and perhaps that's one of the reasons they were very quickly overpowered by christianity, they were very organised, the is into catholic schools and churches as children and told us mac, your story about the beginning of the world where thought —— the purpose of your earth, it's not right. and they gave us christianity. in christianity, with all these ten commandments, it's a very good thing, i look at africans

as broken people, i would rather wa nt to as broken people, i would rather want to see we can become christians and worship but we should also be very free to worship other gods. in the modern way, to make more functional type of benefits. i would take issue with the notion religion is on the rise globally. these are figures coming from research, this is what it suggests but it may not be the whole story. i covered latin america for ten years for abc news and 50 years ago it more than 90% of latin america, the largest concentration of catholics, identified as catholic, today it is around 59%. in some latin american countries it is less than 50%. i remember when latin american countries it is less than 50%. i rememberwhenjohn latin american countries it is less than 50%. i remember whenjohn paul ii diedl than 50%. i remember whenjohn paul ii died i was in mexico city and we did a series of stories about the

roman catholic church in latin america, and what i found was you have one priest with the parish of 50,000 people in the numbers are impossible to reconcile. there was this spiritual drift, inevitably because of that, not to mention modernity itself. and the rise of evangelical and fundamentalist and pentecostal in place. but, in fact, in latin america at the fastest growing religious sector is the people who identify as not religious. i'm glad you came to that because in the same research i mentioned 84% telling the surveyors they are believers and i6% are non—believers, a significant proportion, even under those numbers, why do you think some people are susceptible to religious belief and organisation and others not? modernity has a lot to do with

drifting and questioning, it's easy for others to find other gods and other ways to get values or to abandon values. when the world was small and we did not travel, our community was a very narrow and we wanted to be part of it and that has been fractured by globalisation and the last 100 years. the question that comes to mind when you posit that comes to mind when you posit that question is a person like me still in shock, i've been here for 20 something years but i cannot understand is happening with this research, in the west, in the uk... north america and europe, which are declining religious belief. yeah, you brought this religion to us, you block christianity... i block christianity... , i didn't... block christianity... , i didn't. .. western society brought these religions to us but how come today nigeria is exporting missionaries to britain, to europe?

when i go to churches, some churches area when i go to churches, some churches are a very vibrant and whatever, but others you go and you just wonder where are the people? the young people out there roving around, they don't know it sunday, in africa they are still praying and it is still growing. it is a problem vincent raises a sensible question for european religious leaders as well, when they look at the figures and buy some predictions china will be the biggest, the largest number of christians which is an openly allowing the atheist society, and communist society, they have the largest number of christians. you think vincent has mentioned, his experience of people coming into the uk and other countries in an increasingly secular europe is in turn those people are a benefit to the churches because they help fill the churches because they help fill the pews but they are also a

challenge to secular society because of the values they bring with them which are not always quite the norm, as secular britain has them. then he mentioned china and it makes one wonder the extent to which religions thrive when under pressure because of course we are seeing the growth of course we are seeing the growth of christianity in china at the same time as the chinese government is trying to suppress it. it is one of the biggest areas of religious growth for christianity. do they thrive because that faith means something to them and they are holding on to its? that brings us to another big question, and i want to poseitin another big question, and i want to pose it in a way to all of you which is presumably religions will thrive when religious leaders and organisations tackle the huge challenges of the time for individuals and society. let me throw this one to you, do you think it is the current faith leaders are

addressing the big issues and where do you think they are succeeding and where are they failing? it isa where are they failing? it is a chicken and egg answer, i think this ties into your earlier question, religions tend to thrive, in my experience, when there is a network, when there is a ready—made lattice of community and framework of people because religion does not thrive when it is just individual atomised individuals. that's why it's growing in africa and china, in areas where globalisation has not yet completely fractured the extended family unit. and so sometimes it is a good thing when people get the chance to question religion or think about religion in ways that are notjust overlapping with theirfamily ways that are notjust overlapping with their family or networks, they become more intelligent about it. to a nswer become more intelligent about it. to answer your second question, which is how, is it because of leaders,

i'm not entirely sure, i think leaders, in my experience, tend to manipulate religion for more political purposes, the ten to define it through their own eyes, i struggled a lot growing up in saudi arabia with how saudi arabian is interpreted as land, which which is quite hard then, not the more symbiotic african islam that i grew up symbiotic african islam that i grew up with, which was borrowing from arab and african influences. so i think it tends to thrive more when the grassroots or the firmament for the grassroots or the firmament for the grassroots or the firmament for the grassroots is there, rather than when it is imposed or manipulated from above. you can get a synthetic sense of religious growth in the religious leaders but i think that is more of a political organisation rather than a spiritual one. and yet, catherine, the catholic church, there is a religious organisation with a very clear principle of

leadership, in the past couple of daysin leadership, in the past couple of days in the run—up to easter, pope francis washing the feet of prisoners, his easter message, so much about the poor and the miserable and the deprived, it is the framing of social and economic and political life which is very much about the needs of the powerless. since the growth of communism in the 19th century and the development of marxism the catholic church has striven to offer the world teaching that focuses very much on society and it has something within its teaching code social sin and that's obviously rooted in what christ says and the gospels. one thing that intrigues me about where we are at with the catholic church in the wider world at the moment is what pope francis has to say about climate change, for example, reconciliation, bringing people together from south sudan recently in the vatican or poverty or peace,

many people, including non—catholics, find that attractive but what they do not find attractive are religious leaders trying to say something to them about their own personal sexual morality, certainly in the west, that is completely out the doorfor so in the west, that is completely out the door for so many. in the west, that is completely out the doorfor so many. we have this almost schizophrenic approach to religion, what religion is saying in a more global area as many people find it attractive but in the personal people do not like it. i would think, as a questioning catholic, not because i do not believe, i am questioning how catholicism has grown into the world and whether it is actually dealing with the challenges of modernity. i cannot understand that today the catholic church still says priests should not marry. why not? these are

some of the issues i think needs courage and we've seen different popes come, some very traditionally orientated, some more modernistic and perhaps the need to address those issues. that's the distinction between cultural religious religions that allow more cultural practice like judaism, and i look upon myjewish friends and i kind of envy them because they get all the comfort of the religion without any of the didactic problems or the soul—searching of the guilt. i think there is less space, actually, in a very institutionalised religions such as catholicism that has lost lots of good will with child abuse issues because it is an institution, corporate structure, at the end of the day, we think the problem with thatis the day, we think the problem with that is when there is no, when there is little space for one to become a

cultural muslim or catholic or, then it becomes a zero—sum game. there is definite that issue in islam where you cannot be think one should try and bea you cannot be think one should try and be a cultural and see what is comforting from their buts because it has these are very hard—line rules and leaving religion etc, then any soul—searching becomes burdens with this issue of leaving your religion which is not necessarily. jeffrey, why don't you deal with the question of not when the individual struggles with their failure to adjust or at their institution, their religious organisation, but when the organisation you belong to fails to live up to its own values, which we've seen quite a lot. clearly, in the usa at the

evangelicals, who represent about 18% of the population in the us and more than 80% of whom voted for donald trump, the largest percentage of evangelical support of any president, more than george w bush himself was born again, and you try to reconcile donald trump's behaviour and what he has said in his attitudes towards women and the coarse ness his attitudes towards women and the coarseness and the things that are shocking about that man, and how people can do that. the evangelicals will save but he is delivering what we want, he is clamping down on abortion, clamping down on all the things you values we want to see and has put two very conservative judges on the supreme court, it is a triumph for us. the other side would see at what cost? have you sold your souls to win this? there is no way this man is a paragon of any religious value of any mainstream

religion or any marginal religion, for that matter. that is this huge hypocrisy. we have this interesting rise of this young candidate in the democratic race, who is 37 years old, from indiana, practising episcopalian, an openly gay and a vetera n, episcopalian, an openly gay and a veteran, army veteran, who has the most extraordinary resume and who is trying to now take back the notion that all religious conservatives are republicans, saying, there is a current of social progressiveness thatis current of social progressiveness that is part of christianity and i wa nt to that is part of christianity and i want to speak for that. historically that existed in the us but gradually dissipated over the past a0 years. questions of all the overlap between religion and politics and people's agendas, vincent. the best thing i've had this year was when the catholic church in

congo, drc, led the revolution that forced the president to give up, he was trying to go for many years, thatis was trying to go for many years, that is what we need. that's when i talk about the church and the leaders of the church addressing modern—day problems, that is a very clear area, modern—day problems, that is a very cleararea, in modern—day problems, that is a very clear area, in africa where we have lack of democracy, dictators going for hundreds of years until they died, refusing to go, the church can play a crucial and critical role. are you talking, this is another socially progressive church of the dispossessed kind of thing? it was the catholic church in drc, we have the catholic church, something they speak in so many other countries, often they are quiet, it depends what they want to do. apparently the pope blessed them and said that's a very good thing, go ahead, you are doing the right

thing. i think we should have it as a non—you are addressing issues of poverty and all those things —— have it as poverty and all those things —— have itasa poverty and all those things —— have it as a norm. the church can play a big role in challenging the lack of democracy. catherine, when religious organisations for short of their own values, for the catholic church, this has been a very significant problem, an organisation which is, what are the conditions in which an organisation does not live up to its values? we have seen the catholic church not living up to its values when it comes to child abuse, it has been on a global scandal. it has wounded its and scarred its in terms of its reputation, shattered it in many ways. in that sense, that is a church that has not lived up to its

own values at its reputation and is going to have to rebuild. and many people have been very alienated by what has happened. so it is a question of the church losing many members. he walked away because of this. and lives that have been ruined. it has got to find a way forward and it's taking a very long time to do that. there are some places where the catholic, to talk about the conditions in which religious leaders can play a constructive role in the society is politically, socially, economically, some theocracies seem to become intolera nt theocracies seem to become intolerant of alternative religions and in other societies muslims and christians seem much more able to live alongside each other, i don't know if you can put your finger on the conditions which make it

possible for different religious organisations to cohabit and cooperate. in my experience it is almost always political, almost always if there has been a politicalfigure political, almost always if there has been a political figure who political, almost always if there has been a politicalfigure who has agitated and increased splits between them. i grew up in sudan and egypt which had a large coptic minority when i was there and remember growing up with coptic friends, we would go to church when they had the ceremonies, and i had no idea this was any sort of sectarian issue. when a sharia government came into power in 1989, we began to see prosecution of coptic people because it was useful to the government to create an exclusive view of what the senior religion is, which was as land, according to their view. so we saw hundreds of years of peaceful coexistence disappear within ten, 15

yea rs, coexistence disappear within ten, 15 years, the coptic community disappeared in that period in sudan. and so, you hear stories as well from my parents and grandparents about the coptic family down the road, the hindu or seek family that moved from india 300 years ago and i think it's incredible because it was neverin think it's incredible because it was never in my experience after this government. and so i think we are religions grew organically and cohabited without the national figure at the top wanted to project a certain view of the nation, that has been largely successful, not to deny there has been sectarian issues, but they do tend to get worse when there is a political figure. we are running out of time and i do wa nt to we are running out of time and i do want to just look briefly at the future. to a moment when humans are possibly not the most intelligent

species on the planet because we're so species on the planet because we're so used to thinking ourselves as the smartest, we make tools, run rules and with al, some look forward and say maybe that will be a messiah in the future and who will be all seeing, all hearing, as a believer you will be able to speak to them and they will listen to you, i don't know if any of you want to deal with that ai god. i think what mobile phones have become, not for the better, have become, not for the better, have become the gods of so many. they create this sense, fault artificial sense of community and sense of belonging and also the sense of polarised, echo chamber of values which is causing such troubles today are reinforcing stereotypes and not challenging our own assumptions. very interesting point. it is the century conflict between science and religion. whoever will be more

strategic, tactical, address issues for humanity will win. i'm therefore not surprised in societies like here where people are so advanced with their mobile phones and everything, they start losing the other side of religion. one last question, just a sentence from each of you, an easter message. two words, get off—line. my easter message comes from that incredible photograph from notre dame of the interior of the cathedral, dark, rubble everywhere, all the burnt wood from the roof and all the burnt wood from the roof and a cross glowing in the middle so it might message as there is a light that shines in the darkness. really god that we know we don't know help us to liberate countries. we live in a pluralistic society

religion, where we tolerate and support and protect religion but that comes with the cost of tolerating people who disagree and it is not ok to enter a pluralistic society like the uk to cherry pick what parts of society you want.|j hear you all. thank you all for joining us today. that's it for dateline london for this week — we're back next week at the same time. goodbye. those temperatures have been creeping up day after day, we've seen more creeping up day after day, we've seen more and creeping up day after day, we've seen more and more creeping up day after day, we've seen more and more sunshine around. yesterday we saw highs of 2a celsius. today is looking even warmer. glorious conditions for a

walk in the countryside. indeed, for the rest of the weekend and next week we retain the warmth and sunshine, where the north—west of the country bringing thicker cloud and outbreaks of rain. this is the weather front and talking about, affecting the north—west of scotland and perhaps some cloud into northern ireland. high—pressure dominating for many and bringing this fine and dry weather. after mist and fog clears from central, southern and eastern areas this afternoon is glorious with the widespread sunshine. it was hazy for north and west of scotland, could see some splashes of rain into the outer hebrides. elsewhere temperatures respond well to the sunshine with highs of 25 and maybe 26 celsius in the south—east. today will be the peak of this warm spell. tonight looks like it will be fairly mild with clear skies allowing mist and fog to develop in central and southern and eastern parts of

england and also for wales, more for north—west scotland. easter sunday, we do it all again, a fine start to the day, early mist and fog clearing away and widespread sunshine once again. more of a breeze for scotland and northern ireland got one or two spots of rain. temperatures into the low 20s with highs of 23 of 2a in the south—east. unsettled weather across the western mediterranean but for us as we head into the easter monday, high pressure remains dominant feature so another fine day more of a breeze from the south across the whole country but keeping this weather front at bay so many places will be dry. cloud into the afternoon that could bring a shower across the south—west but most places will be dry with temperatures ranging from 17 up to 23. beyond

easter monday, turning more u nsettled, easter monday, turning more unsettled, increasing chance of showers in midweek, some of them heavy and gradually turning slightly cooler.

this is bbc news. i'm shaun ley. the headlines at 12: police in londonderry investigating the murder of thejournalist, leera mckie have arrested two teenagers. this is the scene in oxford circus where climate change protests contiune into their sixth day. police in london say they've now arrested more than 680 people new research suggests nearly one—in—ten heart attacks and strokes in england and wales could be prevented if routine check—ups were better targeted. campaigners call on the government to cut tax on house plants — because they're good for us and the environment. manchester city have the opportunity to overtake liverpool and go back to the top of the premiership if they beat tottenham in the lunch—time kick—off.