this is bbc news — the headlines: japan's new emperor — naruhito — has formally ascended to the throne — at a brief but symbol—laden ceremony at the imperial palace in tokyo. he received two sacred treasures — a sword and a jewel — that his father — akihito — relinquished when he abdicated on tuesday. the venezuelan president — nicolas maduro — has given a defiant television address — after a day of mass protests against his rule. he saluted the loyalty of the armed forces and said he would emerge victorious in the face of the oppositon campaign to force him to stand down. senior democrats in the us are saying they've reached agreement with president trump to invest $2 trillion in infrastructure projects. this will include modernising roads, rail lines and water supplies and upgrading the power grid to deliver greener energy. they've also agreed that broadband should reach every american home. now on bbc news, it's hardtalk

with stephen sackur. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. this year marks the 30th anniversary of the chinese government's suppression of the pro—democracy protests intended square. since then, china has undergone a remarkable economic transformation. what's happened to the ideological outlook and strategic vision of the country's communist party leaders. my guest is victor gao who once worked as an interpreter for deng xiaoping and is now a well—connected think—tank a nalyst now a well—connected think—tank analyst in beijing. as president xi jinping introducing a new level of chinese authoritarianism 7 victor

gao, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me. as ijust observed, it is 30 years this year since the suppression of those tiananmen square pro—democracy protests. much has changed in economic terms over the past 30 years but not so much politically. the communist party still has a tight grip on power. are you surprised by the lack of political change? well, first of all, you are right. it is the 30th year anniversary of the very fortu nate year anniversary of the very fortunate event in tiananmen square however it is also the 40th year

anniversary or china's opening up to the outside world and reform and i would say ever since deng xiaoping, china has been in the direction of reform and opening to the outside world and that's the only reason we can explain why there is so much transformation in china. but asked you whether you were surprised, are surprised by the lack of fundamental political change, the supremacy of the communist party, the one party system is in place today and it appears to be as strong as it ever was. well, yes, the rule by the communist party of china is indeed a reality. people in china need to live with that reality and people in the rest of the world also need to live with that reality but that doesn't mean that the reform, political reform in particular, is not moving forward. i think we're talking about a change in china almost on a daily basis. interesting

you talk about reform. i see very little evidence of reform if one is talking about a progressive sort of reform, a loosening of the controlled of the party. in fact, one could say that under president xijinping, we see a one could say that under president xi jinping, we see a very different trend, a trend towards strongman rule and authoritarianism. well, it depends on how you look at the situation. if i may raise several fa ct situation. if i may raise several fact in china, for example, internet usage is widespread. we're talking about more than people using smartphones and internet connections, for example, people keep talking with each other, bouncing off ideas of all kinds and generally speaking, there is no problem with that. of course, there isa problem with that. of course, there is a short list of red button issues that the government does not want the people to talk about. you can say that again because the bbc for example, its on line news service

are blocked in china, indeed this television network you are speaking on, bbc world news, is blocked every time we broach a sensitive subject for the beijing authorities. you know better than either the repressive level censorship in china, but loosening, is tightening. the censorship does exist in china and it impacts on bbc and a couple of other international news media. i consider that is unfortunate and hope early, eventually, there will be less censorship leading to know censorship at all and i really hope there will be a day where people in china can freely watch bbc and others, for example. it's interesting to me, your personal background, with your gift of the end —— english language, was shown as “— end —— english language, was shown as —— was chosen as one of the interpreters for deng xiaoping meetings with ronald reagan and margaret hatcher and you have a history of looking closely at the chinese leadership and you say you see continuity between deng xiaoping and xijinping. many china experts

see a departure. i will quote you, kevin rudd, the chinese speaking former australian prime who says xi jinping represents a clear, clear departure from dunk shopping's orthodoxy which was, his quote, hide your strength, bide your time, orthodoxy which was, his quote, hide yourstrength, bide yourtime, never ta ke yourstrength, bide yourtime, never take the lead. xijinping, on the international stage, very different. well, it is true that working for deng xiaoping as is in —— english interpreter was the highlight of my career and i've benefited from that experience ever since. i would say, china has changed profoundly over the past 30 or a0 years in china todayis the past 30 or a0 years in china today is a much larger, much more impactful and powerful country than under deng xiaoping. however, i would say, regardless of the fact that there are people in china especially out of china talking differently about xi jinping, i think xijinping in the

differently about xi jinping, i think xi jinping in the current leadership of china are still moving in the same direction of reform and opening to the outside world. you keep using this word, reform, and i keep using this word, reform, and i keep challenging you. how can you cast it as reform, the degree to which xijinping is recreating cast it as reform, the degree to which xi jinping is recreating what looks to many like a cult of personality. his investing power not just in the centralised communist party but in himself and his closest associates. that surely is reminiscent of now —— mao. associates. that surely is reminiscent of now -- mao. first, personality cult does not work in china and it would not help for anybody, including xi jinping china and it would not help for anybody, including xijinping but i think a stronger leader, a more centralised leadership, given the challenges today, may not be a bad thing for china. so it really depends on whether we look more profoundly into the realities in china. the reality in china is something you know well. you live there. this new app that many millions of chinese have been

required to download and use in the last few months, it's called the study the great nation app and it's devoted, let's be honest, to the image of xijinping. as a respected academic, have you downloaded and killed in the study the great nation app7 killed in the study the great nation app? i have not downloaded this app at all. the fact that there are more than 100 xijinping at all. the fact that there are more than 100 xi jinping thought institutions or academies being set up institutions or academies being set up in recent years probably won't reflect the emotions of the leaders of the second tier or even third tier who really want to create the impression that they really love xi jinping, for example, rather than the personal preferences of president xijinping himself. the personal preferences of president xi jinping himself. the way in which you get points for showing your knowledge of xi jinping and his greatness, it's part of a

much bigger picture, isn't it, in which the chinese government is using its dominant presence on line in china to serve ale, monitor and indeed judge the citizens of the country and the government is going to launch this national social credit system on line in which you are given points for showing behaviours which are to the liking of the communist party and if you behave in ways the communist party regards as antisocial, you will lose credits and ultimately you will be punished. are you happy to live in that kind of country? first of all, a monitoring by the government does exist in china. there are quite a few aspects of that which i personally do not like. 200 million surveillance cameras, more than four times as many as in the united states. in china, if you walk around, you will be monitored, that's for sure. however,

around, you will be monitored, that's forsure. however, on around, you will be monitored, that's for sure. however, on the other hand, allow me to emphasise one point. i think the overall priority of such monitoring is still to make the society safer and more stable. why don't you like it? sometimes it can be very intrusive and it impacts on people's privacy. it's like a choice between two evils in the government in china a p pa re ntly in the government in china apparently chooses the so—called lesser evil to follow. eventually, apparently chooses the so—called lesser evilto follow. eventually, i hope, the government can be more sophisticated in achieving their goals of antiterrorism, anti— extremism or anti— separatism for example and people can have a freer sphere to operate in and they can view websites, for example, from abroad watch bbc for example. i believe one day, that day will come. ijust wonder why you believe one day, that day will come. i just wonder why you think it believe one day, that day will come. ijust wonder why you think it is not coming right now and why china is building this extraordinary infrastructure of what can only be described as a big by the society. why do you think it is doing it

today7 why do you think it is doing it today? especially with internet technologies, the government can achieve much higher efficiency in monitoring the society however as i just mentioned, the overall prevailing priority is still to prevent for example, the country plunging into instability or allowing terrorism to prevail in china. the rationale is one based on fear and security, fear of its own people. would that go through to the business sector? i notice the leading analyst of china, who works at the council on foreign relations in the united states, looks at the degree to which the communist party is intruding more and more into private enterprises, private dismisses, but they are demanding 110w dismisses, but they are demanding now to see exactly what is happening, have seats inside the controlling boards of many different private dismisses. is that also based on fear, fear of the private

sector7 based on fear, fear of the private sector? the word we use however i would say maintaining stability has a lwa ys would say maintaining stability has always been a pillar of what deng xiaoping talked about in achieving great transformation. the government may have a different interpretation of stability but the motivation is more overriding motivation for maintaining stability. it is not a fear of instability, a driving force fomenting instability. one of the most basic human rights of all is the freeman to express yourself. you work for a leading think—tank in ageing, amanda goes to conferences around the world to express your opinion of what's happening in china but the truth is, you are not, as a chinese citizen, free to express all of your thoughts about what is happening in your country. of your thoughts about what is happening in your countrylj of your thoughts about what is happening in your country. i agree with the underlying presumption of

your question, that is indeed, there is more restriction in expressing yourself or making your speeches, at cetera, in china and i would say that's the reality, the government is very strict about certain shortlists of red button issues, for example, and they basically insist that you should not even talk about it or otherwise you probably will find yourself in difficulty. so you tread a delicate line. i'm sure you read the paper written by the leading academic last year in which he wrote, people nationwide including the entire bureaucratic elite bill once more lost in uncertainty about the direction of oui’ uncertainty about the direction of our country and about their own personal security and there is rising anxiety which has spread into a degree of panic throughout chinese society, a deeply critical article about the authoritarianism that he sees in xijinping. did

about the authoritarianism that he sees in xi jinping. did you read it? i think expressions like these are very much exaggerated. why, indeed? i'm just interested in your freedom to talk to me about sentiment like that. did you read it? yes. there are more expressions like that in china, especially on the social media. it's not surprising because we are having a population of la billion and lots of scholars, academics, for example, feel threatened in that kind of environment. it is true, however i would say personally, i would more emphasise the positive side. we will get to that in a minute but you say it's not surprising you can read this stuff. it is very surprising because of the risks people run every time they declare their disagreement with the party line and particularly with xi jinping himself, the academic i've just quoted since been suspended by his

university. we know that reporters without borders has just issued a new report in which china is now 177 out of 180 countries in the world in terms of press freedom. we know that 50 or morejournalists terms of press freedom. we know that 50 or more journalists are currently imprisoned for their writings and their dissident words so you live in a country where for you, as an independent intellectual, life is extraordinarily risky if you choose to stray from the official line. indeed, there is this sense of anxiety among the academics. on the other hand, again, allow me to emphasise the positive side. that is, if you look at the short list of what the government does not want people to talk about, for example, major issues that the government thinks are of vital interest to the national security or to the survival of china, if you stay away of those

—— from those shortlist questions, then amazingly, the freedom of expression, of thinking, of talking about these issues, probably can be maximised. but that's not freedom, is it, mrgao7 maximised. but that's not freedom, is it, mr gao? well, freedom is a lwa ys is it, mr gao? well, freedom is always relative. it's freedom against what? and i would say in china, asi against what? and i would say in china, as i mentioned, the overriding motivation is for stability and promoting development, so stability and promoting development, so you have lots of other things to talk about, if you really want to contribute, to maintaining stability and also maximise the growth of the country for the benefits of the people. what's your view of your own government putting, we believe, at least a million uigher muslims into detention camps, which appear to be described as re— education centres. well, first of all, the uighur brothers and sisters are some of —— one of the ethnic groups in china. i

have lots of uighur friends, i call them brothers and sisters. well, if you have lots of uighur friends, what do you think of putting a million or so uighur people into these camps7 million or so uighur people into these camps? festival, i don't think there is any scientific data to support the claim that there are 1 million uighur people locked up in china. that's number one. number two is that, if we talk and look at the situation there objectively, then we need to acknowledge that it in general is subject to extremism, separatism and terrorism —— xinjiang. many of these are forces spilt overfrom xinjiang. many of these are forces spilt over from afghanistan. but with respect, we know and even the chinese media has shown that in these camps there are men, there are women, there are people who have no connection whatsoever to terrorist organisations. they are simply citizens. now, we also know from lea ked citizens. now, we also know from leaked documents that the afp newsagency got hold of that officials have said, and this is a quote from official documents, the

aim of these detention camps is to build new, better chinese citizens, and that first we must break their lineage, break their roots, break their connections and break their origins. the centres involved have procured basson ‘s, electric cattle prods, pepper spray, handcuffs procured basson ‘s, electric cattle prods, pepperspray, handcuffs and eavesdropping equipment —— batons. i come back to my question. what do you think, as an independent intellectual living in china, of this behaviour from your government? i think it is encouraging to see that the chinese government says that the chinese government says that eventually their goal is to close down whatever facilities you call them. in china they call it educational centre or training centre. yes, once they have broken their lineage, their roots, their connections and their origins, then i assume they will close the camps down. i think what's left by what you said is the lineage or the roots in what? in china, we call it the

three evil forces. that is terrorism, extremism and separatism. and i think the overwhelming majority of the chinese people actually support the efforts in making sure that these three evil forces do not prevail, in xinjiang 01’ forces do not prevail, in xinjiang orany forces do not prevail, in xinjiang or any other parts of china. the million or so people currently in the camps are terrorists, is it? million or so people currently in the camps are terrorists, is it7|j don't think there are 1 million people. as to how many people are in these facilities, i do not know. but i think these facilities, i do not know. but ithink1 these facilities, i do not know. but i think1 million number is highly exaggerated. i guess it comes down, again, to your vision of what she jin ping's administration, and let's not forget that he has taken on the levers of power in china in a whole new way —— xijinping. i mean, he is going to be president and leader of the communist party, it seems, until at least 2027, if not longer. so this is a man who is going to stamp his mark on china, and it seems to

me that if one looks at his rhetoric about national identity, about china's global power, about china's economic power, he is determined to project china on the world stage in a way that no chinese leader in the recent past has tried. a way that no chinese leader in the recent past has triedlj a way that no chinese leader in the recent past has tried. i think president xijinping is recent past has tried. i think president xi jinping is very popular in china among the people. why? because he's very much committed com pletely because he's very much committed completely eliminating poverty, in all shapes and forms, in china by 2020. he is really projecting a more positive and affirmative image for the chinese people on the global scene. and he is different from the previous generations of the chinese leaders. he is different from deng xiaoping, for example, for whom i worked with. however, i would say he is leading china, and china is now much larger than under deng xiaoping, and much more impactful, asi xiaoping, and much more impactful, as i mentioned, and i think china deserves to have a more affirmative leader, a leader who can really stand up firmly on the global stage

and say what the chinese people really think about, in their hearts. you are an expert in international relations. i wonder whether you see dangers in a policy which appears to be prepared to spend $1 trillion or more on this expanded elton road initiative, which frankly goes far beyond the old silk route from china to the mediterranean. it seems to be a global ambition to spend money from countries like pakistan and sri la nka from countries like pakistan and sri lanka in asia all the way through to south america —— belt and road. vast amounts of money building infrastructure projects to project chinese power. and of course, build—up debt owed to china from all of these countries, where the infrastructure is being built. it comes at a time when the chinese economy is slowing. can china really afford this? well, first of all, allow me to share with you one secret of china's reform over the

past ao years. that is, in china, we a lwa ys past ao years. that is, in china, we always tell ourselves if we want to become rich, build a road. so building infrastructure connectivity has been a top—secret in china's reform and transformation. they are calling it that diplomacy, that is really what it is about, isn't it? you want to gain power around the world by actually indenting a whole host of nations, in ways which they are beginning to question. let me a nswer are beginning to question. let me answer your debt issue a little bit later. now, ithink answer your debt issue a little bit later. now, i think china wants to tell all the countries in the world that, if we want to share with you any secret, it is building up your infrastructure. i think connectivity is good for all the countries involved in the belt and road initiative. now, where you build infrastructure, or any other major projects, debt or equity, are equally important. so if we look at the debt, the chinese debt normally is lower in interest, more generous in terms, and it's not designed to entrap the recipient. i'm not sure that's the way it's seen in sri lanka, the maldives or pakistan

right now, but where short of time, so let's park that an end on a about donald trump —— we are short on time. isn't xijinping in real trouble with donald trump, because at last there is a us president who is prepared to project raw national power, particularly in trade relationships7 he has imposed ta riffs relationships7 he has imposed tariffs on chinese goods already. he is prepared to impose many more tariffs. and in the showdown between trump and china, it looks like china is going to have to blink.|j trump and china, it looks like china is going to have to blink. i don't think so. why? let me share with you my views. first of all, as doctor henry kissinger said, between china and the united states, war is not an option. so neither china nor the united states should go to that extreme option. secondly, china and the united states are destined to get along with each other, whether you like it or not, whether china likes the united states or whether the americans like the chinese, we need to get along with each other. there is simply no way of walking away by the united states for china

or china from the united states. one iam not or china from the united states. one i am not talking about walking away, iam i am not talking about walking away, i am talking about the leverage in the trade relationships. and right now, because china has such an unbalanced relationship where you sent $500 billion of goods into the us every year, you have an exposure, a vulnerability, weakness, which donald trump is exploiting. i would say that tariff war or trade war is mutually destructive, and president donald trump needs to be more educated as to what exactly is hurting the american farmers or the consumers or the industries. the united states cannot walk out of a trade war between the two countries asa trade war between the two countries as a net winner. there will be no net winner if the trade war continues. so we need to find a way to put the trade war behind china and the united states, and make sure both the american people and the chinese people will benefit from the economic engagement, rather than disengagement, between the two

countries. victor gao, i wish we could continue, but we can't. thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you, thank you. hello there. at the beginning of the week, it was 21 degrees in northern scotland. by the end of the week, it's going to be 6 degrees. it's turning colder everywhere. but yesterday, we did have some warm sunshine around, helping temperatures to 18 or 19 degrees. at the same time, though, we've got this band of cloud here. it's been moving very, very slowly eastwards, some showery bursts of rain still amongst all that cloud at the moment. but ahead of it, some clearer skies towards the south—east of england, east anglia and lincolnshire, so turning a little bit chilly.

but elsewhere, those temperatures a bit higher than they were the previous night. and as we head into the morning, we expect more cloud across scotland, most of any showery rain towards southern areas for the time being. but it should have moved away from northern ireland, a much drier, brighter, sunnier day, and feeling a bit warmer as well. but some pockets of showery rain coming in across wales, western england, perhaps into the west midlands. further east, some patchy mist and fog, with those clearer skies for east anglia, the south—east and lincolnshire. those should tend to lift, and these areas probably dry for most of the day, but we're likely to set off a few showers almost anywhere, really. some of those could be on the sharp side, helped by a little bit of brightness and sunshine, perhaps. but temperatures may be a shade lower for most places than they were yesterday. warmer in northern ireland, cooler in northern scotland, where we've still got a few heavy showers around during the evening. a lot of those will tend to fade away further south, and skies will tend to clear, so we'll see a little bit of mist and fog around too. but nothing too low in terms of temperatures — down to about five or six degrees in quite a few places.

as we move into thursday, then, and we've got more of these showers, may showers, of course. some sunshine around, but those showers developing in quite a few places. they may be heavy and thundery. some wetter weather moving down across scotland into the north—east of england. the wind direction changes as a sign of things to come. colder air arriving in northern scotland, further south, highs still of 15 or 16 degrees. but as we move into friday, we've still got more cloud moving down into england and wales, where we'll see some heavy showers developing again. but the showers in scotland, they're going to be of a wintry flavour, even to some lower levels as well. temperatures of six degrees on friday in northern scotland. 15 for southern parts of england and wales. but that northerly wind, that colder air, is going to come sweeping down across all areas during friday night and into the start of the holiday weekend, so we may start with a touch of frost around. quite a chilly feel in that wind down the eastern side of the uk on saturday, and there may be a few showers around as well. but on the whole, the bank holiday weekend looks dry for many places, and those temperatures

recovering by monday.

you program this is the briefing — i'm sally bundock. our top stories: nicolas maduro makes a defiant speech on venezuelan television — as opposition protests against him continue. a new era begins injapan — as emperor naruhito formally acends to the throne. i will do my maximum effort to serve my country and the people of japan. i'm mariko oi — live in tokyo — where people are looking forward to the era of beautiful harmony. us tech gaint apple sees

iphone sales tumble 17% —