i'm kasia madera, with bbc news. our top story: there's been a second day of protests on the streets of venezuela, after president nicholas maduro claimed to have defeated an attempted coup. opposition leaderjuan guaido has called on people to stay on the streets and support a general strike. there's no sign so far that the military is switching sides to support him. he told a senate committee he was absolutely confident that donald trump had not unlawfully obstructed the investigation, into russian meddling in the 2016 election. and this video is trending on bbc.com... these two seagulls have become an unlikely internet sensation, after photo—bombing one of the cameras used to monitor traffic in central london. nicknamed graham and steve, they've taken up residence on one of the key routes into the central financial district. that's all.

now on bbc news. it's hardtalk with stephen sackur. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. this year marks the 30th anniversary of the chinese government's suppression of the pro—democracy protests in tiananmen square. since then, china has undergone a remarkable economic transformation. what's happened to the ideological outlook and strategic vision of the country's communist party leaders. my guest is victor gao, who once worked as an interpreter for deng xiaoping and is now a well—connected think—tank analyst in beijing. is president xijinping introducing a new level of chinese authoritarianism 7

victor gao, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me. as ijust observed, it is 30 years this year since the suppression of those tiananmen square pro—democracy protests. much has changed in economic terms over the past 30 years but not so much politically. the communist party still has a tight grip on power. are you surprised by the lack of political change? well, first of all, you are right. it is the 30th year anniversary of the very unfortunate event in tiananmen square however it is also the 40th year anniversary of china's opening up to the outside world and reform,

and i would say ever since deng xiaoping, china has been in the direction of reform and opening to the outside world and that's the only reason we can explain why there is so much transformation in china. but i asked you whether you were surprised, are surprised by the lack of fundamental political change, the supremacy of the communist party, the one—party system is in place today and it appears to be as strong as it ever was. well, yes, the rule by the communist party of china is indeed a reality. people in china need to live with that reality and people in the rest of the world also need to live with that reality but that doesn't mean that the reform, political reform in particular, is not moving forward. i think we're talking about a change in china almost on a daily basis. interesting you talk about reform. i see very little evidence of reform if one is talking about a progressive sort of reform,

a loosening of the control of the party. in fact, one could say that under president xijinping, we see a very different trend, a trend towards strongman rule and authoritarianism. well, it depends on how you look at the situation. if i may raise several facts in china, for example, internet usage is widespread. we're talking about more than people using smartphones and internet connections, for example, people keep talking with each other, bouncing off ideas of all kinds and generally speaking, there is no problem with that. of course, there is a short list of red0button issues that the government does not want the people to talk about. you can say that again, because the bbc, for example, its online news service is blocked in china. indeed, this television network you are speaking on,

bbc world news, is blocked every time we broach a sensitive subject for the beijing authorities. you know better than others that the repressive level of censorship in china, not loosening, is tightening. the censorship does exist in china and it impacts on bbc and a couple of other international news media. i consider that is unfortunate and hope early, eventually, there will be less censorship leading towards no censorship at all and i really hope there will be a day where people in china can freely watch bbc and others, for example. it is interesting to me, your personal background, because you, with your gift of the english language, was chosen as one of the interpreters for deng xiaoping. you were at some of the most important meetings he held with ronald reagan and margaret thatcher and you have a history of looking closely at the chinese leadership and you say you see continuity between deng xiaoping and xi jinping. many china experts see a departure. i'm going to quote to you, kevin rudd, the chinese—=speaking former australian prime minister

who says xi jinping represents a clear, clear departure from dunk shopping's orthodoxy which was, —— deng xiaoping. his quote, "hide your strength, bide your time, never take the lead." xijinping, on the international stage, very different. well, it is true that working for deng xiaoping as his english interpreter was the highlight of my career and i've benefited from that experience ever since. i would say, china has changed profoundly over the past 30 or a0 years in china today is a much larger, much more impactful and powerful country than under deng xiaoping. however, i would say, regardless of the fact that there are people in china especially out of china talking differently about xi jinping, i think xijinping in the current leadership of china are still moving in the same direction of reform and opening to the outside world. you keep using this word, reform,

and i keep challenging you. how can you cast it as reform, the degree to which xi jinping is recreating what looks to many like a cult of personality. he's investing power notjust in the centralised communist party but in himself and his closest associates. that surely is reminiscent of mao. first of all, personality cult doesn't work in china and it wll not helpful for anyone in china, including xijinping but i think a stronger leader, a more centralised leadership, given china's circumstances and challenges today, may not be a bad thing for china. so it really depends on whether we look more profoundly into the realities in china. the realities in china are something you know well. you live there. for example, this new app that many millions of chinese have been required to download and use in the last few months, it's called the study

the great nation app and it's devoted, let's be honest, to promoting the image of xijinping. you're a very respected academic — have you downloaded and filled in the study the great nation app? personally, i have not downloaded this app at all. secondly, i would say the fact that there are more than 100 xi jinping thought institutions or academies being set up in recent years probably more reflect the emotions of the leaders of the second tier or even third tier who really want to create the impression that they really love xijinping, for example, rather than the personal preferences of president xi jinping himself. the way in which you get points for showing your knowledge of xijinping and his greatness, it's part of a much bigger picture, isn't it, in which the chinese government is using its dominant presence online in china to surveil, monitor and indeed judge

the citizens of the country, and the government is going to launch this national social credit system online in which you are given points for showing behaviours which are to the liking of the communist party, and if you behave in ways the communist party regards as antisocial, you will lose credits and ultimately you will be punished. are you happy to live in that kind of country? first of all, i think a monitoring by the government of the social behaviour does exist in china. there are quite a few aspects of that which i personally do not like. 200 million surveillance cameras, more than four times as many as in the united states. in china, if you walk around, you will be monitored, that's for sure. however, on the other hand, allow me to emphasise one point. i think the overall priority of such monitoring is still to make the society safer and more stable.

why don't you like it? sometimes it can be very intrusive and it impacts on people's privacy. it's like a choice between two evils and the government in china apparently chooses the so—called lesser evil to follow. eventually, i hope, the government can be more sophisticated in achieving their goals of anti—terrorism, anti—extremism or anti—separatism, for example, and people can have a freer sphere to operate in and they can view websites, for example, from abroad — watch bbc, for example. i believe one day, that day will come. i just wonder why you think it is not coming right now and why china is building this extraordinary infrastructure of what can only be described as a big brother society. why do you think it is doing it today? especially with internet technologies, the government can achieve much higher efficiency in monitoring the society, however as i just mentioned,

the overall prevailing priority is still to prevent for example, the country plunging into instability or allowing terrorism to prevail in china. the rationale is one based on fear and security, fear of its own people. would that go through to the business sector? i notice a leading analyst of china, elizabeth economy, who works at the council on foreign relations in the united states, looks at the degree to which the communist party is intruding more and more into private enterprises, private business, that they are demanding now to see exactly what is happening, have seats inside the controlling boards of many different private dismisses. is that also based on fear, fear of the private sector? the word we use, however, i would say maintaining stability has always been a pillar of what deng xiaoping talked

about in achieving great transformation. the government may have a different interpretation of stability but the motivation is more overriding motivation for maintaining stability. it is not a fear of instability, a driving force fomenting instability. —— for maintaining stability. one of the most basic human rights of all is the freedom to express yourself. you work for a leading think—tank in beijing, a man who goes to conferences around the world to express your opinion of what's happening in china but the truth is, you are not, as a chinese citizen, free to express all of your thoughts about what is happening in your country. i agree with the underlying presumption of your question, that is indeed, there is more restriction in expressing yourself or making your speeches, at cetera, in china and i would say that's

the reality, the government is very strict about certain shortlists of red button issues, for example, and they basically insist that you should not even talk about it or otherwise you probably will find yourself in difficulty. so you tread a delicate line. i'm sure you read the paper written by xu zhangrun, the leading academic at tsinghua university last year, in which he wrote, "people nationwide including the entire bureaucratic elite bill once more lost in uncertainty bureaucratic elite feel once more lost in uncertainty about the direction of our country and about their own personal security and this rising anxiety which has spread into a degree of panic throughout chinese society," a deeply critical article about the authoritarianism that he sees in xi jinping. did you read it? i think expressions like these are very much exaggerated.

why, indeed? i'm just interested in your freedom to talk to me about sentiment like that. did you read it? yes. there are more expressions like that in china, especially on the social media. it's not surprising because we are having a population of 1.4 billion and lots of scholars, academics, for example, feel threatened in that kind of environment. it is true, however i would say personally, i would more emphasise the positive side. we will get to that in a minute but you say it's not surprising you can read this stuff. it is very surprising because of the risks people run every time they declare their disagreement with the party line and particularly with xijinping himself — the academic i've just quoted since has been suspended by his university. we know that reporters without borders has just issued a new report in which china is now 177th out of 180 countries in the world in terms

of press freedom. we know that 50 or more journalists are currently imprisoned for their writings and their dissident words, so you live in a country where for you, as an independent intellectual, life is extraordinarily risky if you choose to stray from the official line. indeed, there is this sense of anxiety among the academics. 0n the other hand, again, allow me to emphasise the positive side. that is, if you look at the short list of what the government does not want people to talk about, for example, major issues that the government thinks are of vital interest to the national security or to the survival of china, if you stay away from those short list questions, then amazingly, the freedom of expression, of thinking, of talking about these issues, probably can be maximised.

but that's not freedom, is it, mrgao? well, freedom is always relative. it's freedom against what? and i would say in china, as i mentioned, the overriding motivation is for stability and promoting development. so you have lots of other things to talk about, if you really want to contribute to maintaining stability, and also maximise the growth of the country for the benefit of the people. what's your view of your own government putting, we believe, at least a million uighur muslims into detention camps, which appear to be described as re—education centres. well, first of all, the uighur brothers and sisters are some one of the 56 ethnic groups in china. i have lots of uighur friends. we call them brothers and sisters. well, if you have lots of uighur friends, what do you think of putting a million or so uighur

people into these camps? first of all, i don't think there is any scientific data to support the claim that there are i million uighur people locked up in china. that's number one. number two is that, if we talk and look at the situation in xinjiang objectively, then we need to acknowledge that xinjiang in general is subject to extremism, separatism and terrorism. many of these are forces spilt over from afghanistan. but with respect, we know, and even the chinese media has shown, that in these camps there are men, there are women, there are people who have no connection whatsoever to terrorist organisations. they are simply citizens. now, we also know from leaked documents that the afp newsagency got hold of that officials have said, and this is a quote from official documents, the aim of these detention camps is to build new, better chinese citizens, and that first we must break their lineage, break their roots, break

their connections, and break their origins. the centres involved have procured batons, electric cattle prods, pepper spray, handcuffs and eavesdropping equipment. i come back to my question — what do you think, as an independent intellectual living in china, of this behaviour from your government? i think it is encouraging to see that the chinese government says that eventually their goal is to close down whatever facilities you call them. in china, they call it educational centre or training centre. yes, once they have broken their lineage, their roots, their connections and their origins, then i assume they will close the camps down. i think what's left by what you said is the lineage or the roots in what? in china, we call it the three evil forces. that is terrorism, extremism, and separatism. and i think the overwhelming majority of the chinese people actually support the efforts in making sure that these three evil

forces do not prevail, in xinjiang or any other parts of china. the million or so people currently in the camps are terrorists, is it? i don't think there arei million people. as to how many people are in these facilities, i do not know, but i think the i million number is highly exaggerated. i guess it comes down, again, to your vision of what xi jinping's administration — and let's not forget that he has taken on the levers of power in china in a whole new way. i mean, he is going to be president and leader of the communist party, it seems, until at least 2027, if not longer. so this is a man who is going to stamp his mark on china. and it seems to me that, if one looks at his rhetoric about national identity, about china's global power, about china's economic power, he is determined to project china on the world stage in a way that no chinese leader in the recent

past has tried. i think president xi jinping is very popular in china, among the people. why? because he's very much committed to completely eliminating poverty, in all shapes and forms, in china by 2020. he is really projecting a more positive and affirmative image for the chinese people on the global scene. and he is different from the previous generations of the chinese leaders. he is different from deng xiaoping, for example, for whom i worked with. however, i would say he is leading china, and china is now much larger than under deng xiaoping, and much more impactful, as i mentioned, and i think china deserves to have a more affirmative leader, a leader who can really stand up firmly on the global stage and say what the chinese people really think about, in their hearts. you are an expert in international relations.

i wonder whether you see dangers in a policy which appears to be prepared to spend $1 trillion or more on this expanded belt and road initiative, which frankly goes far beyond the old silk route from china to the mediterranean. it seems to be a global ambition to spend money from countries like pakistan and sri lanka, in asia, all the way through to south america. vast amounts of money building infrastructure projects to project chinese power, and of course, build up debt owed to china from all of these countries where the infrastructure is being built. it comes at a time when the chinese economy is slowing. can china really afford this? well, first of all, allow me to share with you one secret of china's reform over the past a0 years. that is, in china we always tell ourselves, if we want to become rich, build a road. so building infrastructure connectivity has been a top secret in china's reform and transformation.

they are calling it debt diplomacy. that is really what it's about, isn't it? you want to gain power around the world by actually indebting a whole host of nations, in ways which they are beginning to question. let me answer your debt issue a little bit later. now, i think china wants to tell all the countries in the world that, if we want to share with you any secret, it is building up your infrastructure. i think connectivity is good for all the countries involved in the belt and road initiative. now, where you build infrastructure, or any other major projects, debt or equity are equally important. so, if we look at the debt, the chinese debt normally is lower in interest, more generous in terms, and it's not designed to entrap the recipient. i'm not sure that's the way it's seen in sri lanka, the maldives or pakistan right now.

but we're short of time, so let's park that and end on a thought about donald trump. isn't xijinping in real trouble with donald trump, because at last there's a us president who is prepared to project raw national power, particularly in trade relationships? he has imposed tariffs on chinese goods already. he is prepared to impose many more tariffs. and in the showdown between trump and china, it looks like china is going to have to blink. i don't think so. why? let me share with you my views. first of all, as dr henry kissinger said, between china and the united states, war is not an option, so neither china nor the united states should go to that extreme option. secondly, china and the united states are destined to get along with each other, whether you like it or not. whether china likes the united states or whether the americans like the chinese, we need to get along with each other. there is simply no way of walking away by the united states from china, or china from the united states. i'm not talking about walking away. i'm talking about the leverage in the trade relationships. and right now, because china has

such an unbalanced relationship, where you sent $500 billion of goods into the us every year, you have an exposure, a vulnerability, a weakness, which donald trump is exploiting. i would say that tariff war or trade war is mutually destructive, and president donald trump needs to be more educated as to what exactly is hurting the american farmers or the consumers or the industries. the united states cannot walk out of a trade war between the two countries as a net winner. there will be no net winner if the trade war continues. so we need to find a way to put the trade war behind china and the united states, and make sure both the american people and the chinese people will benefit from the economic engagement, rather than disengagement, between the two countries. victor gao, i wish we could continue, but we can't. thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you, thank you.

hello. we are now over halfway through the working week, for many there is a bank holiday weekend to look forward to. the weather managed to behave itself but more on that in just a moment. yesterday we saw some showers across the uk, if anything, today the showers, more widespread. and some of them are likely to be fairly heavy affairs as well. it all starts off fairly quietly, there will be a few showers across eastern england first thing, some feeding into wales and the north—west of england. but as the morning wears on, and the sun starts to warm up the atmosphere little bit, we will see some towers of cloud building

and then the chance of thunderstorms increases come the afternoon. we could see a shower just about anywhere, really, on thursday. not all places will see them, but if you are caught in the showers, chances are they are going to be quite punchy. the greatest risk of thunder, i think probably across the midlands and northern england. the rain you see across scotland is slightly different, there is more cloud here, this is actually a weather front. and this is quite a big marker for the change in our weather as we end the week and get into the weekend. the showers will clear overnight, thursday into friday, ahead of this front sliding south. not bringing much in the way of rain but the blue triangles give you the clue, it's a cold front coming in behind it, much colder air on friday. the showers coming in on the northerly wind into scotland. wintry across higher ground, that wind will feel bitter as it strengthens down the north sea coast. ahead of the front to the south, not too bad, some sunny spells, there could be the odd shower, but a high of 15 degrees. to the north, factor in the wind and that seven in aberdeen,

probably will feel more like freezing. what a difference after temperatures in northern scotland were 20 degrees earlier this week. the cold air will dig its way all the way south across the uk through the remainder of friday into saturday. it will stay with us through the bank holiday weekend. that nagging northerly wind could feed in a few showers to eastern reaches of the uk, but on a positive note there will be a lot of fine weather around. away from the east coast, a frost possible first thing on saturday, if you are a gardener or a grower, beware. i've certainly got some of my young plants out at the moment, time to dig out the fleece. the saturday daytime we should see some decent sunshine but temperatures never really recover. bit more cloud around on sunday, monday the wind should ease and that could make quite a big difference. after a couple of pretty chilly days, saturday and sunday, monday you may find things starting to feel closer to average temperatures for the time of year, shall we say.

welcome to newsday. i'm kasia madera in london. 0ur headlines: the british prime minister sacks her defence secretary after he is accused of leaking security concerns about huawei to the press. more unrest in venezuela, as the opposition leader calls for protests to continue. we report from the capital. both sides have called for a mass mobilisation, as a way of trying to influence the military, and these protesters are targeting an airbase right in the heart of caracas. i'm rico hizon in singapore. the headlines: the us attorney general defends his handling of the mueller report against accusations that he misled congress over its conclusions.