he says he didn't do it. but the sacking row masks the strategic debate under way in capitals across the world. should chinese telecoms giant huawei be allowed an integral role in the sg networks of other countries? the united states says no and is putting pressure on its allies to say the same. greg, take us away on this. is the us position one of commerce and politics or of security? i think it is one of commerce. they want technology to prevail, they want to see this commercial advantage over china increase and not decrease. there are masking security concerns, but it is pretty impossible for a layman like myself to know how serious they are.

‘squashed' was the verb you were using. the uk is caught between these two superpowers. it's not like you can say, the chinese will spy on us and the americans won't. anyone will use digital powers any way they can. same question. do you think this is commerce or politics or security? i think it is mostly about commerce. it would be a bit cheeky from the americans to raise the security implications when just a few years ago we learned how the us used their own technology... same question. this is with the prism edward snowden revelation. absolutely. it showed that the us was amassing incredible amounts of information. they had spied on their allies and enemies.

i think this is mostly about getting... being competition for the tech market and the communications market. the truth is that china and huawei are pretty big in europe. i think they have between 35 and 45% of the mobile phone market, and they are on the verge of having a monopoly or great control over this 56 technology. and there is no us competitor that can cast a shadow on the predominance of huawei. i suppose for the british prime minister and any of the us's allies, the security question is there, and also, are we going to lose our partnership, the special relationship?

sure, greg was describing this as being caught between two superpowers. one of them is our long—standing allies and one is not. america has been spying on its allies, including us and the germans, for years. and that is reprehensible. one wonders what happens with that data once it is acquired. we see the chinese as less well—disposed to western democratic powers. the question is, does that still apply? my instinct is yes, and that we want to keep our allies on side. but we have got to have an alternative to the huawei system. to say, "let commerce reign," that is fine unless there is a security concern. i don't think any of us can just say it is too complicated, i cannot figure it out. we have to get to

the bottom of this. where do you see this? obviously huawei is driving forward. is this a race they are going to win in spite of the attempts to push it back? they are winning at the moment. vodafone think they are the best in the business for making the base stations. it is interesting that theresa may is now looking both ways. she is looking at the huge advance that china is making. it is going to be the largest economy in the world shortly. and looking at what we have called previously the special relationship, but i don't think it has huge meaning now. and there is every sign that

donald trump may have a second term and continue the faux trade war he is having with china, and we are going to get stuck in the middle. and yet, if it becomes a "them or us" question, certainly the uk cannot choose china, can they? no, greg is right. it is a commercial decision, but you have the security concerns, part of the five eyes. and if all those countries decide that china, that huawei is not the way to go because of security concerns, that is what is going to put the pressure on theresa may or her successor, whoever the next prime minister happens to be, to go back on that decision. the security concern can override any commerce considerations. the other question has to do

with how does europe respond to all of this? and the idea that europe is going to welcome with open arms the possibility of china spying on european security networks, i think that is naive. and the european union has demanded of the member states to conduct inquiries into what are the security implications of huawei or other companies investing in these european networks. the commercial aspect is extremely important. there is one concern that europe has, not so much with acquiring, owning the 5g network, but it's the amount of companies and assets that different chinese companies have acquired over the last decade in europe.

that is a concern and there are now signs that countries like germany and france are trying to push back, saying we need to see what the implications are of this, because china now have energy assets really... nuclear... which are far more worrying than the 5g. this essential to the argument that donald trump brings to the table, this bruising trade route that he is having with china. ——table, this bruising trade row that he is having with china. there are noises about coming to a deal and on some of the mixed messages he delivers about huawei, it must be worrying for people like theresa may. she must worry well, what if he does some kind of deal at the end of the day and leaves me out in the cold where i am put on the naughty step forever and a day by beijing.

no british diplomat is in the inner circle, so no one knows what donald trump's thinking is. and he could pivot at the last minute for a purposes and love the chinese again and theresa may is left alone looking foolish. we are talking about a special relationship that's not so special at the moment. it must be difficult to know how to formulate your policy without knowing what trump is going to do next. right, so talking about politics in the us brings us to electoral politics close to home. britain's ruling conservative party got a severe drubbing from voters in local elections this week. the prime minister said the voters‘ message was simple — deliver brexit. so, before we look at mrs may's chances of a worse drubbing in eu elections, and prospects for politicians elsewhere on the continent, let's test her proposition. the message was simple? alex. the conservative party

expected things to go badly at the local polls. those are not national campaigns, they are about who runs your local council, collects your council tax. the conservative party expected worse case to lose up to 1000 councillors and it was even worse than that. they lost 1300 councillors. none of whom had anything to do with deciding the policy direction of brexit. that is not counting those who were aspiring to be councillors, these are sitting councillors. they were doing their best in the conservative party and they lost through effectively no fault of their own. how simple was the message? i think it was simple in two ways. conservatives did not turn out and those who did turn out voted for other parties.

and voting on the remain side of the divide held up quite well. so liberal democrats made some gains. you will find some people now in the face of this remarkable defeat making excuses, saying that conservative party were at a high point in 2015, and the liberal democrats were due a come back. so they were artificially low coming up... forget that. when you get a defeat this big, it is time to stop making excuses. you have got to look to the basics. the tory party is getting the basics wrong. a month ago or so, when theresa may agreed her brexit extension in europe, she was hoping she would not have to fight european election. is she going to get in a worse situation?

yes, i think the tory party will come third behind the brexit party and labour. and could come fifth behind change uk or the greens. that is the party and government coming fifth in a national election. can it survive coming fifth in a national election? does anyone disagree with that analysis of the potential catastrophe for the government? no, but changing the leader will not change the problems with the withdrawal agreement. if the tories come fourth or fifth in the european election, replacing theresa may with anyone else is not going to actually change the problem that they have with getting that withdrawal agreement through the house.

and i think she stays in no matter what because there is no mechanism to remove her. i think she stays in no matter what. the other big main party, the labour party, did not do so great. hence the walking in the middle—of—the—road comment. are they going to ditch constructive ambiguity or do you see them doing a deal when theresa may because both of them have an interest in getting to a deal? i don't think they have a mutual interest. and i do not think a deal is in the works. and i do not see change at the top of the labour party either. i think the constructive ambiguity will continue and the frustration in the rank and file grows. that term was coined in the northern ireland peace process 20 years ago, constructive ambiguity. it worked because the ambiguity was constructive. the ambiguity in the labour party is there, but it is not constructive.

it worked to a certain extent in 2017 but now people are fed up with labour's ambivalence about brexit. and i think they really need to pay attention to what is happening in their councils. there was a massive shift of votes for people who are pro—remainers. i think this is the message thatjeremy corbyn, these are other lessons that he should be paying attention to. another one he should pay attention to and they were members of the shadow cabinet hinting they might support an agreement reached with theresa may on brexit. i think he should pay attention to the german dealings of the spd and the cdu. the spd has been in opposition, losing elections for almost a decade. so i think labour, if corbyn is thinking seriously about enabling theresa may's brexit, the consequences for the party from

an electoral point of view will be disastrous. pursue the thought you started with. the idea of smaller parties coming back, the lib dems for example. the greens, the independents. do you think we are seeing a bit of a — ironically, at the point of trying to leave the eu — europeanisation of the uk? yes, this started in the mid 1970s, rising volatility amongst voters, the rise of voters voting for smaller parties. in 2015, there was a super election where over one third of voters voted for parties other than the main parties. this is the tendency

of european politics. highly fragmented electorates, lots of choice and this is a reflection of very diverse populations but also the two main parties are not offering answers for the whole population, and that's just life. i just want to know if anyone disagrees with that analysis. corbyn does not reflect the views of most of the people in his party. he is a brexiteer. he is very sceptic of the eu. you can only have ambiguity if the reason is complex. this is not complex. he is out of step with his party, so energy is going elsewhere, to the greens and other parties. that is the problem

withjeremy corbyn. he thinks that the eu is a corporatist stitch up. he is eurosceptic in the old benn—ite way. let's move to what everybody else in europe thinks of the eu. brian, as an irish citizen, when you think about the eu elections, you actually engage with them, the rest of the eu is going to the polls. when i think back to 2014, the last eu elections, only two in five voted. is it more electrifying this time? not everybody is looking at the european elections through the lens of brexit. they will be, in ireland... i want you to avoid the brexit topic and talk about the things that concern europeans. we get a lot of media coverage about immigration.

it is not simply about immigration, it is if you are matteo silvini in italy, but if you are out every weekend with the yellow vest movement it is because you think the system is either broken, corrupt or both. it is not necessarily immigration. if you look at other countries it is actually about how you fix the economy. so it is all of these things. as eunice said, the tectonic plates are shifting and the party systems are breaking down. and you get smaller independents. you get minority parties like the greens having a resurgence for however long that is going to last. when you have the new commission in place, this is what they are going to have to look at. they are going to have to deal with myriad problems. we see it here as,

southern europe has a immigration problem, and it is more than that. one of the things that the european parliament is going to start doing following this election, because that projections say the nationalist parties are going to increase their presence, so they are projected to control around a third of the votes in the european parliament. that means that the two party groupings, three party groupings will have to start doing dealings and to listen to other political forces. to be honest, this is what the european union has been used to. it is how the institution works. consensus building. and yet, some of the people in question have quite large personalities and they want to subvert some of the eu's workings, according to their message. yes, the media likes to pay a lot

of attention to them, but they do not have sufficient force to storm out and change everything. the mainstream parties might actually decide to stop talking to them or not engaging in dialogues and look at other forces. the politics of alliance will shift. you don't need to look to italy to see people who are changing the status quo within the mainstream. president macron, we thought it would be a done deal with the ald and working with them, but it ain't necessarily so. he's flirted with them a lot, suggested they will come together, but then ostentatiously he withdrew. so he is kind of manoeuvring as a national leader over international institutions and i think we may see some more of that

in the next european parliament. this election saw turn out going down and now it is going up and it was populist so it was bad. i think it will go up and it will be even more populist still. there was a poll done in the last couple of weeks showing that there is a vast amount of undecided, swing voters. it is a massive amount of votes. it should make it electrifying — is it? it is not for me and i do not think it is for european citizens in a gross generalisation because people do not perceive the european parliament as doing a whole heck of a lot. what was the last key decision they made? deciding something very important that affected all of our lives? the associated press, we are taking it very seriously, lots of people deployed to cover it. but i don't think citizens

find it electrifying. it is the only parliament in the world that cannot initiate legislation. such a red herring. the european union is not a state. they cannot initiate, but they vote. they are co—legislators. the eu cannot be compared to a state. the discussion always goes wrong because there is always a mistake of comparing the european union to a state. the capacity to legislate in the european union is divided across different institutions. deal with greg's point about the perceptions of european citizens. he is right. most think that the european parliament is not a very important institution, although it is. it takes a lot of very important decisions every day.

the parties only talk about national politics, the european dimension of this is forgotten. this brings me back to something you mentioned before. president macron has tried to talk about a narrative for europe — is it working? it worked for him, many of us would have seen him wrap himself ina european flag. it succeeded. right now his approval ratings are very low. so were margaret thatcher's at midpoint in the electoral cycle but then she bounced back. he is redefining what it means to be a european leader. especially after angela merkel is gone. especially if he winds up

running against someone on the far right like he did previously. if that is the case, then the future of france becomes increasingly intertwined with the eu. but his flirtation with groups within the european block is what confuses things. he could win it and become a big international leader or he could alienate people by being too overtly political. and a little bit too pompous in that scenario. and all of that while people are still rioting in the capital. laying down lectures for others while he can't keep things together in his own country. do you see a scenario in which europe wakes up saying that it has done much more different things than they might have expected? i don't think so. i think you will see the greens

doing better than they have been across europe because of the recent publicity about climate change and there is more of a sense of urgency. but i do not. it is a long, slow process. no big far right blog saying to the liberal elite, move over, we are in charge? in this country nigel farage will sweep the board. and afd germany as well. but i do not think they will be driving the agenda. those are long processes that are not going to change. the lower the turnout, the more difficult it is to be. there is going to be

a shift in the agenda. because we are coming out of austerity. and there is now the perception and understanding that voters have had enough. if they do not want those nationalist forces to take over and control say 40% of the european parliament in five years' time, it is time that europe starts to address the social agenda which it has neglected for the past 15 years. this is where macron might count with a lot of support from the european social democrats. i'm afraid were going to have to end it there. we will come back to it. we'll be back next week, same place, same time. goodbye.

the bank holiday weekend continues onafairly the bank holiday weekend continues on a fairly chilly note. earlier, we had temperatures as low as minus four celsius. there is sunshine to be found. this is cambridgeshire this morning, blue skies around. more clouds drifting in from the north now. high pressure is building from the west, so that is quietening the weather down. still a cold breeze coming in from the north and north—west, so cold air are very much still with us. sunshine especially in southern england and

into wales, further north, a bit more clout. that brings outbreaks of showery rain across the north of scotland. breezy for northern scotla nd scotland. breezy for northern scotland and down the east coast of england, just the isolated chance of one 01’ england, just the isolated chance of one or two passing showers. high temperatures of 9—1lidc, not too bad where you see the sunshine. the tour of yorkshire continues today and we expect things to stay dry. a lot of cloud and rather chilly, 9—10dc. this evening and overnight, showers creep further south, some of them wintry of higher ground. more clout across england and wales compared to last night, so it won't be quite as cold, but temperatures are still down to three or four celsius. colder than that in the countryside. bank holiday monday starts on a cold note, this front making its way south, bringing cloud and showers across southern scotland, northern england and northern ireland. south of that, it should be dry for a good

pa rt of that, it should be dry for a good part of the day, but showers will push on from the north later. sunny spells around, especially for the north. still heavy showers and it will not feel particularly warm, top temperatures 9—13dc. it stays rather cool and cloudy into tuesday as well. showers in northern england, northern ireland and scotland. wintry showers over high ground. persistent rain working on from the south west later in the day. mild up from tuesday onwards, but more u nsettled from tuesday onwards, but more unsettled too. wet weather and windy coming in from the south—west from wednesday. april was dry, so this rain is welcome for many of our gardens. goodbye.

this is bbc news. i'm martine croxall. the headlines at midday... the prime minister appeals to jeremy corbyn to resolve their differences and help her deliver brexit. but the shadow chancellor says a crucial factor, trust, has been broken. in a word, a single word — do you trust the prime minister? no, sorry not after this weekend when she has blown the confidence she had here and i actually think she has jeopardised the negotiations for her own personal protection. police forces in england and wales are urged to rethink their policy of asking rape victims for access to messages and photographs on their phones. thailand's king makes a grand procession in front of large crowds in bangkok, in his first public appearance since his coronation on saturday.