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it is now time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. britain's top diplomat, foreign secretaryjeremy hunt, is at the end of a five nation tour of africa, aimed at persuading this continent and the wider world that post—brexit britain can and will play a pivotal global role. so hardtalk has come to nairobi to talk to mr hunt at the end of this latest road trip. if and when the current brexit chaos comes to an end, how will britain stack up as a source of global power and influence? hardtalk theme music plays

foreign secretaryjeremy hunt, welcome to hardtalk. thank you, stephen. you are on the last leg of a tour of five of africa's fastest—growing economies. put yourself in the shoes of the leaders you have been talking to. what do you think they make of britain today? well, there is tremendous historical affection for britain, but history isn't enough, and there are now in africa a very large number of very ambitious, very capable, very determined leaders, who are thinking about the future and they are looking at britain in a very different way, and they are immensely supportive of the traditional relationship we have had, which has been largely aid—driven and,

from the point—of—view of the british public, the sort of — the live aid type poverty reduction agenda is incredibly important still in parts of africa, but there's another side to africa. the young entrepreneurs that i met in ghana, the tech business park i went to in abuja, the entrepreneurs you see here in kenya, and that business side of africa now needs to become the central motor of our relationship and they look at britain, they see you've got the city of london, you've got more tech start—ups than anywhere in europe, you've got europe's biggest media centre, and they want us to be helping them to develop africa in all those very exciting ways. if you want them to partner with the united kingdom, you, of course, have to convince them that the united kingdom is politically and economically stable, and has a clarity of vision where it is going. the uk does not have that right now, does it? well, brexit has obviously been a big challenge for the uk but what i say to the leaders who asked me this very question is that brexit is actually

a very strong sign of the strength of our democracy, because you see the divisions amongst people in britain, about our relationship with europe reflected in parliament, you see all these debates played out in democratic institutions. let's talk about short—term stability in the united kingdom. we do not have it, we have a government, of which you are a very senior member, which right now is in chaos. just a couple of days ago, we saw the defence secretary fired by the prime minister, because she believes he leaked confidential, secret information from the national security council. what does that tell us about the disarray in the cabinet in which you sit? well, we have that issue, but we have actually had many occasions in our political history where cabinet ministers have left for a variety of reasons... with respect, we haven't had a cabinet minister of this seniority fired for more than 30 years,

and we are talking about the betrayal of the confidences, under the official secrets act, within the national security council. so for outsiders looking in, what does it say, i repeat, about the disarray in your government today? well, i think the fact that the government has taken it so seriously when we have had a leak — and it is a very serious thing when it comes from the national security council — is a sign that britain completely understands how important these things are and is willing to take action. but i would just make the point — we talk about political instability, we have a hung parliament in britain, it is an unusual thing in our system to do that, and of course that makes it challenging when you have a very controversial issue, like brexit. but what i think we can be proud of is that these issues are played out inside the walls of our parliament, we are not having shop windows smashed, we are not having violent demonstrations up and down the country, and there is a deep sense, even inside parliament, even amongst mps who voted

to remain in the eu, that the will of the people must be respected, that people voted for brexit and we need to find a way to honour that. and i will get into detail on that in just a moment, but to stick with gavin williamson, who untiljust a couple of days ago he sat alongside you, in cabinet, defence secretary, on the national security council, how disappointed in him are you, given that he, according to the prime minister, leaked this confidential information about the government's decision, reportedly, to allow huawei, the chinese giant telecoms company, to play a role in the development of britain's 5g network? well, i haven't seen the investigation that was conducted by the cabinet secretary... you've heard the prime minister's words. ..but i respect the fact that, if the prime minister believes that he was responsible, she can't have him sitting around the table at the national security council. but i also hope this won't be the last word on gavin williamson's career as defence secretary.

he was a very committed defence secretary, very committed to the men and women of the armed services, and i think he has a lot to be proud of in his record. he's sworn on the lives of his children that he was not responsible for that leak. he's talked about a kangaroo court. he's talked about a witch hunt. he says he wants a full and transparent police investigation. do you believe there should be a police investigation? well, the prime minister said she thinks the matter is closed. whether the police investigates these issues depends on whether they receive evidence that there could have been a breach of the law, and we have to leave it to the police to make thatjudgement. there is a very big issue underpinning this affair with gavin williamson — it is about the uk's strategic vision, its relationships with the biggest powers in the world, and i'm thinking of course of the united states, but in this particular case, china. britain hasn't really got a clear

china strategy, has it? well, i don't agree with that. i think we are a country that has always welcomed china's rise. we think that one of the main reasons why there are so many fewer people across the world in extreme poverty is because of the extraordinary success of china in turning around its economy and lifting lots and lots of very, very poor and destitute people up in terms of their standard of living, and we want to be part of that because we think there are opportunities for british businesses and british people, but at the same time, i'm not sure china has entirely decided itself what role it wants to play in the world. does it want to sit around the top table as a partner alongside the united states, treated with equal respect? or does it want to supplant the united states? and i think we have to have an open mind while china makes up its mind

as to the role that it wants to play, as to how we respond to it. right, do you see china as a military threat? the pentagon hasjust issued a new report saying that china is developing military bases around the world, to sit alongside its belt and road infrastructure investments in so many parts of the developing world. is china a military threat? well, china certainly has the capability to be a military threat because they have the second largest armed forces in the world and, in the end, we have to find a way for china and the united states to live alongside each other because that is in everyone‘s interests, and so i think we need to be wary, we need to be careful, but we also need to make sure we keep the opportunity open for developing the kind of friendship and partnership with china that, in the end, i think will be the best thing for humanity. you are clearly not sure about china's long—term intentions, you'd advise caution and wariness. in that context, bringing it back to the huawei decision,

a fundamentally important decision to the national security infrastructure of the uk and its 5g network — do you believe that the prime minister has made a mistake in her decision to allow huawei to be part of the 5g development? well, the government has not made a decision and that has been made very clear, subsequent to that national security council meeting. we have to look at our economic priorities but we also have to look at our security priorities, and china would not want its critical national infrastructure to be dependent on another country, and we are just the same, so we have to find a way through this. how important is the us position? let me quote you the words of robert strayer, a senior figure in the state department responsible for cyber security, "the us would consider the use of huawei's equipment anywhere in a 5g network

an unacceptable risk," and he has warned of specific harm — harm — to intelligence relationships with any country who do use huawei in their 5g network. well, the united states are our closest ally and, of course, we listen to them very carefully, but they also have a different role in the world, which is that they are still effectively the security guarantor for the world order that we have now, which has led to unprecedented peace and prosperity, so... they're the superpower, we're not, and the superpower is telling us you cannot use huawei in the 5g network and expect to continue the close security cooperation with us, including the five eyes intelligence gathering and sharing that you currently enjoy, if you make that decision. so how important is that to you? well, anything the united states says is important, and i think it is very likely that we will look to develop an approach that is shared across all the five eyes partners.

the united states itself, incidentally, has not yet banned the use of huawei equipment. well, it's clear that's the direction they're heading in. mike pompeo, the secretary of state, is coming to see you next week, he is clearly — we know it from all the briefings — going to ask you, ask the british government, to reverse any possibility that huawei will be involved in 5g. what will you say to him? we will listen very carefully to what he says, and then we will make our own decision because we are a sovereign nation, but let me just make a broader point because i think what you're alluding to here is the central challenge of foreign policy in the 21st century. what we have now is a more autonomous united states, a more aggressive russia, a more autocratic china, and the world order is changing and, for britain, we have to decide what is our role in that changing world order. and we are one of the few countries, in fact, the only country in the g7 that both spends 2% of our gdp on defence

and 0.7% of our gdp on development, so we have a strong voice, if you like, on the security side and the values side, and our role in this changing world order is to be, in my view, the kind of invisible link or the invisible chain between the countries of the world that share our values, because we must never be complacent about democratic values, they are constantly under threat and we need to stand shoulder to shoulder with countries that share these values, and bring together those alliances. because we may not be a superpower, but we are a global power and we have unparalleled connections. is britain really a global power? here we sit in africa, and let's look at the reality. chinese investments and contracts in sub—saharan africa alone worth $300 billion in the last dozen or so years. in 2018, last year, xijinping committed another $60 billion to africa. well, we should never be

complacent about our position, but to answer your question very directly, yes, britain is a global power, we will remain a global power. let me tell you why — we are the second—biggest military spender in nato, we have the world's language, we have organisations like the bbc that have reach across the world, and we have huge pull because britain is the country, alongside the united states, that really put together the international order that we now live in since 1945, the postwar world order that has been stunningly successful in delivering peace and prosperity to a far greater proportion of the human race then has ever experienced that before, but we have to work for it. and my message in africa — where incidentally we're in a country now where the uk is the largest investor, earlier in the week, i was in senegal, where we are about to become the largest investor — and my message is twofold. first of all, it is notjust about aid, we have the city of london, we have entrepreneurs,

we have technology, we have life sciences, we have three of the world's top ten universities, and we want to be part of africa's business future as well. and secondly — and this is i think relating to the values point you make — some people may be tempted with the autocratic development model, the sort of, you know, if we just have a strong man running the country, that creates security, allows you to get stuff done more quickly — we are supporters of the democratic development model, because, for example, in senegal, where i was earlier this week, they have had peaceful transfer of power three times since independence. in ghana, they have done it four times since independence and, in the end, the real stability that business needs is the stability of knowing that when one regime ends, you will have a transfer of power that is peaceful to the next set of people, and that is a precious gift that you get with democratic systems, and not to be underestimated. let's then talk in practical terms about what britain says to nations

in africa and elsewhere that want to develop deeper trading and investment relationships. one of the key elements comes back to our earlier discussion about brexit. they need to know whether britain, in the long run, is going to be in a customs union with the european union, which of course means that britain will not have its own independent trading negotiations with them because it would still be part of the eu for trade negotiations, or whether it is going to be entirely independent. what is the answer to that? i can't say what the precise nature of our trading arrangements with the eu will be because we are in the middle of all those discussions and obviously, like everyone back home... when you come on these trips, leaders say to you, "foreign secretary we look to a trading relationship with you but it is impossible to discuss it right now because there is profound uncertainty in your country. " no, because the first half is that i can't tell you right now

what the nature of our trading relationship with the eu will be like because we are going through the process. i can tell you that britain has and always will be a free trading nation. we are committed to maximising trade without tariffs or quotas and african countries who benefit from that kind of trading regime now should be 150% confident that that will continue after brexit. you are dodging the fundamental uncertainty which is that if britain is still effectively inside a customs union with the eu, its ability to forge independent trade deals in africa or elsewhere is clearly hamstrung. theresa may, and indeed it has become clear while you've been in africa, theresa may has made it plain that as far as she is concerned, leaving the eu with no deal is off the table and the chief whip has said that it has come down to a choice. we either accept a customs union for the long haul or we go to another referendum and put it back in the hands of the british people. which do you favour? i favour leaving the eu as quickly and cleanly as we can.

i recognise there will need to be compromises on all sides of the house of commons. be it my side or labour's side because the truth is no party has a majority and no party can impose its vision of brexit100%. are you prepared to accept a deal that is a de facto permanent customs union with the eu? i have never been a supporter... i just want to know. what i do want are the benefits of a customs union which is frictionless trade. i'd need to look at whatever deal we came up with. as far as african countries are concerned, the point i make to them is that what you care about if you're the kenyan government is that your trade with the uk, an important trading partner, and they should be confident that whichever scenario we end up with, we will be a great free trade nation and we are not interested in imposing restrictions or quotas or tariffs because we do not believe

that is the best way to run the global economy. you have threaded your answers to me with references to values and it has been a centrepiece of your tenure as foreign minister to push for press freedom and freedom of expression around the world. you said that defending free media must be a central element of british foreign policy. are you prepared to support those fine words with actions against nations which do not respect the freedom of press? i would not have said that i want us to champion media freedom across the world, a world in which the last 5 years have been the worst 5 years on record for the safety of journalists. last year alone 99 journalists were killed in the course of their duties. some specifically targeted for being a journalist. and i see media freedom is the thin and rather fragile line between open and closed societies. of course i want to champion that. it is a question of what britain is prepared to do. one of those journalists targeted,

murdered and indeed chopped