over five years, yes. ..and are now giving it to women's aid charities. after china announced steeper they make the point that many tariffs on $60 billion worth who are longstanding supporters of american imports. of stonewall share our concerns and dismay about the organisation that was the go—to lgbt authority. well, go—to lgb authority. the dowjones suffered it's biggest we were the lgb authority. and this is the concern — daily loss this year — is now telling schoolchildren that down more than 2%. but president trump has insisted a bearded man with a penis can be a lesbian, and any boys and girls things "are working out very well". deviating from the 1950s gender people have been voting in the philippines in elections that norms are in the wrong body. could see the hardline president well, as a lesbian myself, consolidate his grip on power. as someone who often plays and manipulates the gender norms, rodrigo duterte‘s hoping his allies take control of the senate, i don't agree with that which has previously been critical interpretation of what's happening, and there are many, many lesbians who are very supportive of many of his policies. of our stance. and if we're talking financial profile, ourfinancial profile has and this video is improved, and individual giving has gone up. the number of donors has gone up. trending on bbc.com. the number of high—level donors has gone up. tributes have been paid so this is someone who disagrees with our position... to the hollywood legend doris day, is there a split? who's died at the age of 97. no more than there ever has been. so there was a significant split the actor and singer made nearly forty films, starring alongside cary when stonewall didn't do trans. grant and rock hudson. it was less interesting, that's all. the media didn't report it. stay with bbc world news. it felt like a fringe issue. stonewall not doing trans was absolutely out of step... it's not the not doing trans. it's the way you have done it. i disagree. when we were not doing trans, the reflection was we were doing trans and representing trans issues. so you think these people angry because... because you are working

on trans issues. theyjust don't believe that trans now on bbc news, hardtalk. should be coupled with lgb, and that is a position. stonewall was founded 30 years but the movement, the lgb movement internationally, ago to campaign for gay is an lgbt movement. stonewall was very late and lesbian rights. to the party on this, and the opposition we received when my guest today, ruth hunt, became its chief executive, for not doing trans was as loud, she extended its work to include as vicious, as upset, as angry. the trans community. i remember in 2008... but many stonewall members have been upset at the line the leadership has taken on gender recognition, that anyone can declare themselves to be male orfemale, and at their refusal to share a platform with anyone what is the argument for including, because you are including identity as well as sex? who disagrees. what is the argument for including lesbians with gay people? these bedfellows have not always is this coalition, which has been been comfortable and we are clear about trans people and lgb people at the forefront of gay liberation experience discrimination in the same way that people who hate for decades, now in danger us tend not to differentiate. there's a similar amount of prejudice. the trans community is tiny and very of tearing itself apart? left—behind and unrepresented and often when you experience homophobia, you see transphobia as well. so every international movement, and in america, they've always joined lgbt. every global movement has done lgbt. stonewall was quite odd in not doing it. is this row the reason you are going? i've been doing it for 14 years and i've been ceo for five. you've been in the top role for five

years during which time you made ruth hunt, welcome to hardtalk. this change and some might see that thank you, hello. you're essentially making yourself now, stonewall could have argued the lightning rod, that that it should be easier for trans you are going to protect stonewall, people to have their chosen the row goes with you. gender recognised. but you chose to go further, and say all someone needs to do is say that they are a man or a woman. why did you take that position? well, i hope so. well, that's the current position that exists in ireland, malta, argentina, and in reality, one would always like to leave and support the organisation it's the practical way in which most trans people in this in that way. country and abroad operate. very few feel the need i think it's very easy to think this to necessarily go through a process change has only happened by which they receive because of me and that's a little bit because of how individual organisations work but the board have been completely behind this another certificate. at every single stage, as have our supporters. so this isn't, it's slightly so what's classified as what's caricatured as ruth hunt, called self—identification is actually a reflection of how most who is also a lesbian and a feminist, and knows my way around simone de beauvoir people live their life. better than most people, has made this rogue decision so if a colleague came and it's a decision that's been in to see you and said, taken by a lot of people with a lot look, sarah, tomorrow i'm going to be coming in, of thought and a lot of care. and i would like you to call me

a long—term supporter has said john, and i would like you to use my stonewall was always clever at putting together those broad pronouns as male and he, coalitions around big principles. you wouldn't turn around and say, can you tell me what process ruth hunt lost what the big principle was. you've been through, the board is now in an have you've seen any doctors, and whether. .. so people are accepted extraordinarily difficult situation. for who they say they are, the board doesn't feel that generally, in society, and that i'what ireland did, and the board is clear that's in terms of their legal recognition, and that's how it's now managed what we're doing now. in many countries. but the question still stands, because the situation at the moment — the criticism of it is that it's when we look at our allies now, bureaucratic and that it's intrusive who is the coalition and that it's expensive, we're working with? because you have to go we have support from every political through a process, and you need a medical diagnosis, party, support from the army, and then you need to go through, support from gchq, what, two years before a panel decides? support from barclays. and there would be many people who would say, you're right, it needs changing. these coalitions are forming but exactly, perhaps, as they always have done because it isn't such a difficulty around every campaign. but i'm also aware that every in practice, you can make it easier without making it something campaign, there has been division. where you can just say, i remember campaigning tomorrow i will be... for the human fertilisation so what we're suggesting and embryology act and there was opposition from within our own communities. the difference is, these are more and more complex issues. is there should a process, it was quite easy to say gay people like to marry gay people, let us marry, on a postcard. arguing for trans rights is a much and we think that the scrutiny that more complex, nuanced position. that process puts in place doesn't there are grey areas. need to be as arduous. prisons aren't simple, some would argue there's no need sport isn't simple, for a process at all, refuges aren't simple. and there's lots of people gay rights for gays

who are trans who don't go through any process now. was a slightly easier narrative. so i think the question is, but there is another charge, though, what does that process offer? that the reason that stonewall and what are you suggesting the process should be? that someone makes a legal was set up initially was to do with what was being taught declaration, that they make a declaration that they have a full in our schools and we have intention to fully transition, that this is a permanent change, a situation at the moment and that that's how in the united kingdom they should be regarded. and actually, that's not necessary now. where in a predominantly muslim so the reality is this is how most area, there are a number of schools trans people live their lives, and i think it's important in all these discussions to remember who because of a row what people are actually doing. well, let's talk about what people with the parents are not teaching, are actually doing. because one of the biggest concerns and it's primary school children, about this is what happens to safe but they are not being taught spaces, particularly about same—sex relationships safe spaces for women, and that is a situation that has where it's known that predatory men gone on now for some time. have, and there was a case in canada for decades. in 2012 where christopher hambrook but particularly with the recent row assaulted women in two trans shelters. over what is being taught in school, talking about a matter of weeks, with people saying the government should be stepping in. what do you think the government should be doing? well, the government is. stonewall has been working with schools for the last 30 years as you say and in primary schools for the last four or five. there are 20,000 primary schools, and we work particularly he claimed he was a trans woman, with government funding with faith schools.

and this was just after the law had changed, and he was found so we will work with any faith school for free and do some guilty of sexual assault and criminal harassment. and there have been others. remarkable work with muslim—majority schools, christian schools, jewish schools, but that always and there are fears that, requires a conversation if you make the process as simple and negotiation with parents. as saying, i'm now a woman, that that will increasingly happen. it would be happening now. there has never a school that we've so i'm not saying it doesn't happen, but changing the process wouldn't worked with where we haven't had make that more or less likely. so for people who want to masquerade to be mindful of how we are bringing as a woman in order to attack, parents on the journey and that's they're not at the moment asked just not to show any documentation. lgbt issues, it's the role nor is a trans woman asked of women in society, women and their careers, puberty, to show any documentation. all sorts of different stuff, so the problem we're discussing is violent men, abortion, genetically modified... violent men who are attempting lots of controversial things, to infiltrate situations in which they can be abusive and violent. and i think what the government has what do we do about that? changing the recognition process said very clearly now is that by which someone can receive a gender recognition certificate, by making sex and relationship that they never show anyone, education, although it's called even won't mitigate that risk or heighten it. relationship and sex education so there is a risk, but how in britain now, compulsory, they are sending a clear signal that this is something that should do we deal with that? you thought about and it should be inclusive. because there are head teachers caught up in this row who have said but we're not just talking not only have central government about violent men, are we? been silent about all this but the we're also talking about women who perhaps have been abused by men information they have put out is contradictory, and want a space that they consider equality is non—negotiable to be purely for women. and by not being clear, they are fudging it. but again, that question is legitimate. it's legitimate whether the law changes or not.

and what the experts who run the centres tell us is that they have been risk—assessing people coming i think it's a bit unfair into these centres for a very, on the government. very, very long time, i'm not a government apologist or a spokesperson including trans people. and there are moments where they drag their feet but they have been unequivocal on this. there is a general problem about when is it ok for parents to take the kids out of this ok, so there was a case in the uk education, at what age can kids go, in 2017 where somebody called i can make these decisions on my own, and it's notjust karen white was jailed for life after she attacked women in female something about lg bt. prisons, and the prosecutor who described her as an "alleged we've got some beautiful resources, transgender female" said she has used her transgender persona to put different families resources that herself in contact with vulnerable persons. now, are you saying that she would really work well in schools need to have gone through a process in lots of different contexts, in order to get into the prison and they work. so when the local mp in birmingham, in the first place? shabana mahmood, talks about a conflict, she says it's been she would, as every trans person regardless of their status, within the gender recognition act or not, would have been assessed on an individual basis. hard for parents to get a fair and, in this case, that assessment went wrong. so is the answer to say don't let someone have a certificate? the answer is to improve the process. hearing about genuinely held so, regardless of whether someone religious convictions in an atmosphere has a certificate or not, the ministry of justice which often doesn't feel tolerant of religious beliefs. do you sympathise? it's a a similar conversation that is assessing them. we've had with trans issues. a discussion about how these debates are going on, if it easyjust to say, leaving everybody slightly

dissatisfied but what i know has look, i'm now a woman... worked well in other schools of those quiet conversations behind closed doors with parents. there is someone who might the conflict doesn't exist, then? have a gender recognition certificate and would still go no, no, it's dealt with face—to—face through a process of assessment by the prison. rather than via megaphones there is someone who might say or via twitter or they're a woman and would still go via 120 characters. there are conversations to be had. through separate i come from a faith background. assessment by a prison. and that process is individual, i understand how to navigate thorough, and it's supposed to avoid some of these issues. problems like this. people are concerned when they don't this was a problem that went wrong understand what's being taught because the process failed, and i remember going into a school not by changing the system. do you understand — where parents were deeply concerned that sanitary towel boxes were going to be put in toilets do you understand why in the primary schools. there are women who feel very, nothing to do with lgbt. ijust happened to be there. very concerned about the ease they were saying, we are with which the... making girls grow up. of course. girls are having their periods ..somebody could say when they are ten. i am now a woman? of course, and what i would want let's just talk about that. that's not an influence, to say is, is this happening today? it's not growing up too quickly, it's just what happens. are we seeing this happening? conversation, i always believe so where i am concerned is where we're seeing people saying talking is a good way to do it. it might happen in the future you believe talking behind closed if we change the law. that isn't the case. doors gets more done if it's happening now, let's talk about safeguarding procedures. because there isn't the twitter let's talk about how we assess who is appropriate to gain services. and the trolling that comes from it? so how are we looking at prisons? the reform of the gender i often think about how politicians recognition act... somebody with a certificate in the ‘90s in the early 2000s who says they are a woman... would have coped with every sentence ..would never show that certificate. being passed over on twitter.

nobody would have asked i think there's is something to see that certificate. but if they wanted to get about how subtlety is lost on social into the prison, the refuge? media and it's impossible no. for something to be anything other there is another concern than one thing and everyone which many people have, and it was articulated by kristina harrison, who is a transsexual political is reduced to the lowest common campaigner who works in the nhs, who talked about this. denominator of their position what stonewall have agreed and gets entrenched to is entrenching a quite extreme in that position. gender ideology in law. a lot of what we do at stonewall and she makes the point that it around peace building, principally redefines particularly with trans work, what it is to be female or male. we work with peace builders, these changes, after thousands is there any way of moving of years of sex—based definitions, when someone is deeply entrenched in a position and how do you manage are happening with a minimum of political scrutiny, that and twitter heightens that and she makes the point that debate and it's about how we use our power is basically being shut down. it's being impeded by a toxic to basically achieve change and authoritarian atmosphere, and there's a real seduction and that those who are being in campaigning to go for a headline sidelined, the dissenting voices when actually we're about long—term being sidelined, are particularly women. how do you answer the charge sustainable change. long—term change, it's currently illegal to have sex with a partner of the same sex in 72 countries around the world. against stonewall? in nine countries, homosexuality is punishable with death. that would suggest that actually perhaps some people would say that that should have been the focus of your campaign, well, i think that they're confusing your campaigning, is on those what happened in 200a. life—and—death matters rather so the discussion about than perhaps questions what constitutes a man and a woman of identity and semantics. happen in 2004, and there

was debate in parliament. well, for trans people, the issue she is discussing it's not a question of identity about what does it mean to be a man and semantics, it's a case or a woman was an issue that was discussed at length in 200a. of extreme hate crime day in and day ok, so when a billboard out when they go on the trains was put up that said — and on public transport. gave the google definition of woman, the situation facing trans people is not an esoteric which is adult human female, debate about identity. somebody complained, said it was a symbol that makes tra nsgender people feel unsafe, and the billboard was taken down. when you are talking is that billboard offensive? about countries, and i didn't do so, but when you are talking about countries where it is illegal, you can have the death sentence applied to someone found guilty of having a same—sex partner? 10% of our operation is on international work. and we work in different ways, well, i don't find it offensive, with activists on the ground, but neither is it in my power praying them, giving them to decide what goes the resources we've got, on billboards or not. so part of the other thing and we work with businesses we work about what you said was, within this country, is stonewall responsible the 800 companies, lots of them have for the atmosphere in which this debate is taking place? operations in those countries and their influence and what i would say is quite significant. is that there has been so for example, we've opened an extraordinary degree of toxicity an office in northern ireland on all sides of the debate, because when companies we work and stonewall‘s staff and stonewall within northern ireland, when they talking about how supporters have experienced that important same—sex marriage and lgbt in a way that we haven't seen in 30 rights are, we know that that's years, in terms of some of the way a much greater driver than necessarily gay—rights in which the debate is conducted. activists doing that. lots of influencing there. also significant influencing

through british politicians. 30 years since stonewall was set up, and in my career at stonewall how far or how much has changed over the last 14 years, in that time? i've campaigned for the rights of catholic adoption agencies to see same—sex couples, i've campaigned how much further needs to be gone? on many, many difficult, tricky, complex issues. there's something about how this debate is taking place significant change and i've been that is deeply damaging for all sorts of sides. there for 14 years so i've been are you saying that the debate lucky enough to see and be part is more poisonous than any other of a lot of it and i think debate you have been involved in? yes. ok, but there are plenty of people, the change we've seen in schools, you know, who would say that the change with employers, stonewall is partly the way in which police now to blame for that. deal with hate crime, and the suggestion is that — and here we are. all these things have been one of the founding members of stonewall, simon fanshawe, a massive step forward. says stonewall withdraws representatives from panels that include people who disagree with its stance on self—identification. to say these issues aren't even the bbc now often talks about lesbians without blushing. debatable, that raising them is somehow transphobic, we've seen a big progress appears to be the stonewall on all these different things position, rather than to build but simultaneously, we're on the great position also seeing things go of concentrating on backwards, particularly internationally. particularly in some countries where to support lgbt rights, there is something about their avoiding discrimination. global positioning in the world in relation to their attitude well, simon hasn't been to the global north, at stonewall in 30 years, so i'm interested in his take, lgbt as the lightning rod to say but he hasn't been part of the discussion. stonewall is constantly having we reject those principles, debate on these issues.

you have withdrawn it's often weaponised in countries people from panels. we have withdrawn them if we feel to put clear blue water even between isis states, they're going to be unable at cetera, et cetera, to have their voices heard. so we are mindful of how precarious our rights and we have to take the safety of our trans staff very seriously, are and how our rights are only comfortable if you like the gay and the level of personal threats against trans staff leads me person who's got them. to make a call. so for the nice gay person who's but myjob over the past five years has been married, might have kids, it's an easy one. to have difficult conversations. i have had many of those but the trans person who's a bit puzzling and a bit confusing, difficult conversations. you don't really get it, then it becomes more uncomfortable and stonewall has an absolute obligation to do everything we can do you think it is transphobic to say that you disagree to ensure equality for everybody, with self—identification? including those left behind. no, because they wouldn't. ruth hunt, thank you you know that there are people — for coming on hardtalk. but there are many people who think, thank you very much. by the withdrawing of and shutting down of the debate, that that's in effect what stonewall are saying. i wouldn't agree with the position that we have shut down debate. i think what we haven't done is said that it was stonewall‘s role to host that debate, and it's not stonewall‘s role to host a debate. stonewall‘s role is to have a very clear position that was developed over consultation with 700 individual trans people, with all of our diversity champions, we work with 800 major employers, who have been asking us to do trans work for decades, hello. and has been increasingly disappointed that stonewall hasn't. well, very settled weather we're very thoughtful and considered and measured across the uk for the next few days. about the positions we take. notjust the uk, but in fact

what we haven't done... but many parts of western europe. and the outlook — staying warm and sunny. so why are so many lesbians some places will be warmer in particular, feminists, stonewall, people who previously were very strong supporters than others though, across the uk. of stonewall, aghast and angry at the stonewall position on trans? so this is the picture what we're seeing is many of our then through mid week. supporters are very, the highest temperatures very supportive of what we're doing will actually be in parts of scotland, this is where and how we're doing it. we've seen that in the way we've we will have the sunny grown, the reach we have, and completely windless conditions the way in which we're working. and that's what will help temperatures rise into the mid 20s. that high pressure‘s stretching from southern scandinavia across the uk, into france and even about as far south as spain and portugal, only just. this means that the settled weather will be widespread across many areas we're a much bigger organisation of europe, certainly here in the uk. than the way we were five years ago, and a lot of that is down starts off pretty nippy with clear to the fact that we thought about these things differently. we knew that there would be some skies, the temperatures still do people who didn't acknowledge or believe or want trans people to be part of that movement. tend to dip away this time there are lots and lots of the year, maybe a touch of grass frost here and there and lots that did. outside in your rural areas but that's pretty much it. but those people — so, starts off sunny from the get—go, beautiful, among those people are many lesbians beautiful day.

who feel that you have notice the winds are blowing changed the position, off the north sea here you are eroding their space. in the south—east. maureen chadwick. yes. so that means it will be a bit who is a creator of television fresher in places like norwich programmes with her partner, kath gotts, quit and london with wind and stopped funding. 00:13:08,045 --> 2147483051:43:18,737 they had given $38,000, 2147483051:43:18,737 --> 4294966103:13:29,430 over a number of years... up the thames estuary. but say in scotland, it could exceed 20 celsius as it did on monday. now the high pressure through tuesday and wednesday is just showing slight signs of maybe drifting a little further north back into scandinavia. that means the winds will start to change direction, but before they do, it's still going to warm up nicely, wednesday will probably be the warmest day of the week. very light winds and we suspect the highest temperature will be across scotland. but notice it's a little fresher here around the north sea coast, 15 degrees on the coast of lincolnshire, norfolk and suffolk. that's because the wind is blowing out of the east and that easterly wind is indicating a change towards the end of the week. see that cloud across and bits and pieces of rain there across parts of central europe? that will eventually be heading in our direction. so the thinking is you can see the east wind blowing here from denmark. the thinking is it will tend to cool

off a little bit by the time we get to friday, particularly on these north sea coasts from aberdeenshire to norwich, only 13 in norwich, pushing the warmth a little bit further towards the west and the clouds will increase and there is a chance that we will get one or two showers. it is not going to be a huge change, essentially mostly dry. for saturday and sunday, it looks like it will cool off and there is a slightly greater chance of catching a few spots of rain. bye for now.

i'm rico hizon in singapore. this is newsday on the bbc. the headlines: global financial markets take a tumble as china hits back in the trade war with the us. could the philippines‘ controversial president consolidate his power? votes are counted in midterm elections.

i'm samantha simmonds in london. also in the programme: the war orphan who met his mother. a miraculous reunion for an iraqi family after 30 years.