tv HAR Dtalk BBC News May 22, 2019 4:30am-5:01am BST
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this is bbc news, the headlines the sharply rising tensions between the us and iran seem to have eased with a statement from the acting us defence secretary that american "counter measures" have put on hold what he called the potential of attacks from iran. patrick shanahan was speaking just after he and secretary of state mike pompeo gave a closed—door briefing to members of congress. the british prime minister has said parliament has "one last chance" to deliver brexit, and urged mps to back what she called her "new deal". it contains new guarantees on workers' rights, the irish border, and a vote on whether to hold another referendum. abortion rights protestors have held rallies across the us in protest at the moves by an increasing number of states to severely restrict terminations. last week, alabama enacted the strictest law in the country, effectively making abortion illegal even in cases of rape and incest. republicans hope to bring the issue again before the supreme court.
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now it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hide tour, i'm stephen sackur. the surgeon israeli—palestinian violence in gaza this month was relatively short—lived. the grim status quo remains intact but maybe change is afoot. hamas's internal grip on gaza is threatened by rising economic discontent. the trump administration will soon unveil a peace plan built on economic incentives for the palestinian people. i guess today's hamas spokesman ghazi hamad. the movement ‘s rhetoric is unbending but do the palestinian people long for new ideas?
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ghazi hamad in gaza city, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much. let me ask you a simple question. when the people of gaza ask you how you and the hamas movement are going to make their lives better, what do you say? i think we are struggling, we are working in order to ease the life of people in gaza here but i think people there understand very well the reason of this crisis is occupation, the policy of the siege, the policy of the blockade, the pressure on gaza every day because
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you know gaza, israel looks to gaza asa you know gaza, israel looks to gaza as a hostile region and they try to keep gaza under siege, blockade, sanctions and striking every day. i think we are trying to stop this. i think we are trying to stop this. i think we are trying to stop this. i think we try to do that through two trucks, first of all, reconciliation, in order to have one authority, one political regime, one system, in order to be open to the world and also we are working with agreement. i think we are trying but i know that situation in gaza is very critical, very difficult. but i think we have to have a final solution. you know that situation in gaza, first of all, it is political. if we put in for the occupation in gaza, i think people could create freedom, dignity and respect and they can move everywhere, they can do everything that they want. we understand that there are lots of things that you and gaza are not
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able to deliver and you talk about what you call the israeli blockade and you know that we on hardtalk talk to very senior figures in the israeli government about their policies towards the gaza strip that i'm interested in what you can control and the truth is since hamas has been in power in gaza, which we are talking i2, 13 years has been in power in gaza, which we are talking 12, 13 years in fact, the situation for the people that you represent has gotten so much worse. there's been a near ten fold increase in people who need to survive on food aid, for example. unemployment is now at a record of nearly 60%. so whatever is your —— whatever is in your gift to control, you are not controlling it effectively. as i said, hamas is not so interested to keep control of gaza. because of this, we wanted reconciliation since the beginning, 2009, we started negotiation with our brothers in fatah and we went
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back to two things. first, to have a coalition, a unity government or we can go to the elections. presidential elections for parliament elections. we know that the situation in gaza is a big burden, it's a bigger challenge for us, it's not easy because gaza is like a big prison, closed from all sides, the gates of gaza are controlled by the occupation, gaza is under sections, under control of the occupation so it's not easy to find a genius solution for this situation unless we put the occupation in gaza but we are trying. there is no genius solution, i agree of course with that but it does raise questions about the sense of your particular strategy, for example, just a couple of weeks ago, hamas's military win —— wing along with islamicjihad hamas's military win —— wing along with islamic jihad took hamas's military win —— wing along with islamicjihad took the decision to fire hundreds of rockets into
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israel. i am wondering how you can convince anybody that that is in the long—term best interests of the people of gaza, given that it gives license to the israeli government to yet again impose the sort of economic blockade, maintain the blockade that you just talked about. i think we are living in the big dilemma. we are under occupation and we have to resist against this occupation because occupation is the source of all evils and all kinds of troubles in gaza. i think we are fighting the israeli occupation in order to live in freedom and dignity. i think this is something that we could not be blamed for this. this is the responsibility of the international community. they should ask israel, you have to enter the occupation, stop this, it's unacceptable. it's go through this in detail. you talk about the occupation. gaza is not occupied, israeli forces pulled out many years ago. you can talk as you do about
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the economic policies the israelis implement towards you. us. you misunderstand. you have to ask yourself stop who controls the exporting and importing in gaza. yourself stop who controls the exporting and importing in gazalj understand what you're saying. there is not an israeli military true publication of gaza. —— troop patient. inside gaza. dot. you and your forces continue to lob those rockets inside israel and just the other day it was claimed that the firing of the rockets we saw earlier this month was "just a live fire drill for an upcoming war". my question is again, what sense is there and using that kind of language if you want to best represent the people of gaza christian —— gaza 7 represent the people of gaza christian -- gaza? stephen, you have to understand we are a peaceful people, we want to live like anyone
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in the world, we want to live in freedom. 70 years of occupation and troubles every day. i think we are looking to live like you in britain and everywhere. we have to stop this. and i think now, israel... please, in the west bank, they are not firing rockets, they are not fighting, they are not under struggle but in the west bank, they are building settlements, confiscating lands, they kill people, they put the wall down, 500 check points, they abuse the president. they have now dismantled the palestinian authority. ask israel, why are they doing this? i think it is the israeli mentality that they want to punish, they want to delete the palestinian identity. they want to destroy our future. they want to destroy our future. they want to destroy our future. they want us to abolish our future. i think what happens in gaza is the
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same, the policy of the occupation, they want gaza starving, suffering, people asking for peace but they wa nt people asking for peace but they want gaza to be like this, to be oppressed and broken. i think we as a palestinian faction, we want to stop this and we want israel to stop this policy and israel, look, we started to have a ceasefire agreement with the mediation of the egyptians, the united states but until now, israel is not party to this agreement. i think they have to... there is an alternative possibility, and that is the sporadic surges of violence between you and the israelis across this guide bores, —— gaza border, they suit hamas in some ways because it distracts attention from what is clearly a growing wave of popular protest inside your communities against the rule of hamas and the mismanagement of the economy. we saw in march unprecedented scale of
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street protests against hamas which was greeted by your security and police officers beating people up, arresting them, torturing them in detention and you, to take attention away from that, find it very useful to launch your rockets into israel. i think this is, maybe you misunderstand the situation, stephen, very well. i think we are trying here in gaza to keep the respect of people here. we try to look to israel for the people. we are struggling with other palestinian factions, the ngos and all sides in order to make life before people here but it is not an easy mission for us. it is not easy for hamas. that simply isn't true because you are not working in cooperation with many of the ngos in gaza. in fact, you are arresting members of important ngos. during
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these protests, a hamas police force not only arrested journalists, they also arrested two members of the independent commission for human rights, a palestinian watchdog group, and they proceeded to beat them up with dozens of security officers involved. amnesty international said the human rights violations perpetrated by hamas against protesters, against journalists and human rights defenders have become more severe than we have seen in more than a decade. i think if you now have around ——if you go around the jails in gaza, you will not find a political resident here. you will never find a journalist in the detention centre. you will not find anyone who is because of his political opinion now. i give you a chance now to come to gaza, to go everywhere and ask. i don't deny that some mistakes were done in the past with some people here and there but i think we are under stronger
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pressure, sometimes from the occupation, sometimes from our brothers in romolo who tried to incite people to go out against hamas to create violence in gaza and i think we are trying to keep gaza, asi i think we are trying to keep gaza, as i said, as a calm, quiet area because we want our people live in and freedom. you can come to ours —— gaza and ask actions and ngos if there is only one, one journalist or political activist in the prison of hamas here in gaza. have you seen the widely of widely circulated, protesters in gaza saying that the sons of hamas leaders have houses and jeeps and big cars, they can get married, it's no problem for them but ordinary people you have
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nothing, not even a piece of bread. when you see those sorts of video, how do you respond to them?” when you see those sorts of video, how do you respond to them? i don't think that you should now quote everything in the social media. i'm also suggesting there is a wave of opinion in the communities inside gaza which is problematic for you and your leadership. please, i hope you can't come to gaza and support different factions. i don't deny the people who criticise us and don't like hummus but if you come to gaza, there are some kinds of debt —— democratic elections in hamas. we said many times, the palestinians here in gaza, in order to listen to them. a violation, criticism against hamas here. we try to correct and do everything good for people here. not
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angels, i'd agree that we don't make m ista kes angels, i'd agree that we don't make mistakes but we are doing very hard. we are trying harder political arrest. i think many articles are written in gaza and they criticise hamas. speaking very sharply and loudly and no—one is stopping them. you gave access to a bbc documentary tea m you gave access to a bbc documentary team last year to look at how one particular day in the march of return went. it's a day i believe in me 2018, may 1a, and the bbc film crew showed palestinians, including women, saying that they were being organised, we lined up like a human shield so the men can advance further. it did seem to portray a very careful co—ordination by hamas security forces of this march of
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return and i just want to know whether in the future, from now on, whether in the future, from now on, whether hamas is going to continue to use the march of the return in the way it appears to have used it in the past. look, sometimes when we adopt a military resistance they say hamas isa-- military resistance they say hamas is a —— terrorist organisation. they just peaceful people. they don't have guns. they don't have stores, they don't have grenades. they have nothing. just people who protest in order to get attention to the war that there is a crisis in gaza. the people deserve dignity. the peaceful march since 2018, we have about 300 people were killed. indeed. most of them are children, most of them are innocent people, most of them are
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women. and nobody brings israel to account. we have tried to keep it as peaceful. because it is our slogan, in order to keep this march as peaceful march. it is not a military march. crosstalk. we challenged the israelis on the use of lethal force, believe me, ministers have been challenged many times in this programme. but when palestinians amongst the protest say things like this, quote, "some of us distracted the israelis with stones and molotov cocktails before an attempt was made to cut the border fence". are you telling me hamas was not aware of that. it seems very carefully organised under hamas's security control. stephen, don't think we want anyone to be injured, we don't want anyone to be killed. it is ourjob, we have tried to
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prevent people from being killed. it is ourjob. it is our people. we don't want to expose them to being killed by israeli snipers. excuse me... crosstalk. if you line up women and children like a if you line up women and children likea human if you line up women and children like a human shield so that men can advance further, that to me is the very opposite of safeguarding the safety of your civilian population. we wa nt safety of your civilian population. we want to prevent people from being killed. sometimes we have negotiations and talk in order to have a centre agreement. so we don't wa nt have a centre agreement. so we don't want people to be killed or more people to be injured. but you know, there is a sniper in the borders, they use guns. they kill people. they should people in the head, the abdomen, then he is. as i said, we had more than 3000, 4000 people in a
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now. more than 20,000 people. we wa nt now. more than 20,000 people. we want israel to stop shooting people or to use live ammunition against people because it is a peaceful mark. i'm so astonished because the international community is keeping silent. sometimes they blame hamas for firing rockets, but silent. sometimes they blame hamas forfiring rockets, but they silent. sometimes they blame hamas for firing rockets, but they don't also blame israel for killing the innocent people in the borders, including children and women. isn't the truth, ghazi hamad, that hamas has been in power in gaza for an awfully long time, benjamin netanyahu awfully long time, benjamin neta nyahu has awfully long time, benjamin netanyahu has been empowered for a long time in israel and just won an election, it suits both you in hamas and neta nyahu to election, it suits both you in hamas and netanyahu to have the other is the reliable enemy. there is some sort of strange symbiotic relationship which leaves both of you actually satisfied with the status quo because it allows you to perpetuate your own power. no, think there is a big difference. i think,
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asi there is a big difference. i think, as i said, we want to end the occupation. neta nyahu is as i said, we want to end the occupation. netanyahu is not so interested to enter the problems of gaza. he will try with different choices. he tried through paletto strikes against gaza. he deployed collective strengthens, military strikes, the policy blockade. now gazais strikes, the policy blockade. now gaza is like something in his throat. he could not swallow it or throw it outside. i think israel should... crosstalk. sorry, ghazi hamad, i don't mean to interrupt too much. if they may say so, surely the truth is the very opposite, that neta nyahu so, surely the truth is the very opposite, that netanyahu uses the rhetoric of you and your leadership in hamas as a reason why he will not engage in any land for peace deal, will not talk about a 2—state solution, because he quotes leaders like fathi hamad of hamas who sat on the other day of the commemoration
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of the catastrophe of 1948, fathi hamad said this, he said "that they will be victory, there will be on uprooting of the zionist enemy from our lands" he said to israel's leaders," go away, the dave hill slaughter is nearing, you have no place injerusalem". slaughter is nearing, you have no place in jerusalem". i do not care about what neta nyahu place in jerusalem". i do not care about what netanyahu says. he could lie for his people, he got over the international community. i think he is full of lies and fabricated... crosstalk. i'm asking you if the language i'd just quoted from fathi hamad is useful and in the best interests of the people of gaza, yes or no? look, i think hamas said many times that we a cce pt i think hamas said many times that we accept a palestinian state and 1962 borders. but i think we are not ready to recognise the right of israel because those that israel is a state of the occupation. i think
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you should not blame the palestinians. you should blame the occupation and israel, because israel all the time is supplying the occupation either in gaza they are supplying, supporting the killing of the palestinian people, so i think some people are very angry, other people are upset. if you looked to the other side, he spent 25, 27 yea rs the other side, he spent 25, 27 years in peaceful talks in negotiation with israel but he got nothing, he got a big zero. there was more confiscation of land, more isolation in the west bank, we got nothing. so what choice is left for the palestinians? just flowers for the palestinians? just flowers for the israeli occupation forces and to keep silence? i think it is not logic. it is not fair. crosstalk. no—one would argue that the last 70 yea rs have no—one would argue that the last 70 years have worked out well for the palestinian they may be designed fresh thinking. donald trump and his tea m fresh thinking. donald trump and his team are going to launch their
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so—called deal of the century, a new plan for israeli—palestinian peace injune. it plan for israeli—palestinian peace in june. it seems plan for israeli—palestinian peace injune. it seems the plan for israeli—palestinian peace in june. it seems the focus will plan for israeli—palestinian peace injune. it seems the focus will all be on economic incentives, not major political incentives, but economic incentives to get tens of billions of dollars into the palestinian communities if they are prepared to make a peace, albeit with difficult decisions. are you prepared to listen to the donald trump deal? look, i think it is a waste of time. for two things. now no—one is convinced that donald trump is doing the right. he has no plan in his mind. ithink the right. he has no plan in his mind. i think he understands that he is the empire of the world. he gave israeljerusalem, he gave them the golan heights. i think he is ready to give them iraak matt, qatar, iran. ithink to give them iraak matt, qatar, iran. i think he thinks that he got
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by his pencil he gives israel everything —— iraak. all palestinians, either the left of the site, i don't think the arabic war, the muslim or as against the plan of the muslim or as against the plan of the deal of the century. he will fail. and they assured that today or tomorrow trump he will not be able tomorrow trump he will not be able to do anything to convince the palestinians or the arabs to accept his plan. so i think he should put it aside, i think, was something else but do you think that kind of rejection, before you have even heard what the plan is, is truly in the interests of the people of gaza who we have said, from the beginning of this interview, are suffering the most terrible economic deprivation is right now? no, i think in 70 yea rs is right now? no, i think in 70 years nobody gave us a final solution, stephen. no—one gave the
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palestinians a positive initiative. i think they are lying and lying, including europe, the united states, international community, they are just lying. they are giving tranquilizers. saying you have to wait for the american elections, the israel elections, different initiatives, the british initiatives. i think we wasted 70 yea rs initiatives. i think we wasted 70 years and we're still living under the occupation. we are losing everything. so i think the economic solution is not a solution. it is not a solution. we as the palestinians have a political solution which says, frankly, the end of the occupation, the palestinians deserve estate, we have to establish a state. the occupation is over. this is our plan. you should not deceive us with some money, some financial solution. i think we are not poor people for money, we are portjust for freedom. ghazi hamad, we have to end there. i
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think you very much forjoining me hello. there's predominantly fine weather, with the gardens looking drier, the sight of rain bouncing off the ground could be viewed by some with envy, but that's what we had in the edinburgh area for a time on tuesday as the thundery shower moved through. but for much of the uk, tuesday was sunnier and warmer compared with monday, and it was dry. and there's more dry weather around for most parts of the uk in the day ahead. big exception, though, northern isles and northern scotland. here, we are going to see a weather system close by, with cloud and some outbreaks of rain. in fact, some persistent spells of rain, some heavier bursts as well, and a stronger, cooler northerly breeze. and you see this area of cloud from north wales,
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southernmost parts of northern england into the north midlands, that mayjust produce a shower as most other places are dry, a good deal of sunshine. it feels every bit as warm as it did on tuesday, that means high teens, and a few spots into the low 20s. now, on through wednesday night and into thursday morning, you'll notice that the rain still hanging around northern scotland, orkney, though clearing away from shetland. this strip of cloud probably doesn't have any rain associated with it. for many, it's clear skies and for the clearer parts of northern england and northern ireland, temperatures in the coldest spots ending up close to freezing. now, for many of us, thursday is going to start with some sunshine. there's still some outbreaks of rain, though, with the cloud in the breeze in northern scotland, and the cloud increasing for northern ireland. towards the western coasts of england and wales mayjust produce a little patchy rain, whereas most areas will stay dry and clearly, if you've got the sunshine, still the warmth as well. still a few spots into the low 20s. now, by friday, we are expecting a bit more in the way of widespread cloud, though the rain has eased from northern scotland. but from northern ireland and through england and wales, as the cloud thickens, a bit of patchy rain moves its way further south. could start to turn more showery into the afternoon as it does so the further
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south it gets. but still where you get to see some sunshine, there's still some warmth out there. but there are some weather changes on the way, just in time for the bank holiday weekend, as our atlantic weather takes over once again with an area of low pressure moving in. and that does mean there'll be a bit more cloud around, the potentialfor seeing a bit of wet weather at times, not a washout by any stretch of the imagination. there'll still be some sunshine occasionally but notice temperatures just edge off a few degrees. it'll feel slightly cooler, probably more so because the breeze starts to pick up and there's less sunshine to be had, and the chance of rain. now, the chance of any substantial rain, at least across southern parts of the uk, remains low. and that's your latest forecast — bye bye.
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this is the briefing. i'm sally bundock. our top story: looking for support. can theresa may get her brexit deal across the line as she offers new concessions? a rallying call on abortion law — protestors gather across the us as several states pass laws to restrict terminations. on a dizzying politicaljourney. we have a special report as the uk prepares to vote in a european election dominated by brexit. brain drain in the fashion industry. we go to milan where more and more students are thinking about leaving italy.
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