tv HAR Dtalk BBC News May 23, 2019 12:30am-1:00am BST
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our top story: the british prime minister's leadership crisis reaches new levels as a senior member of her cabinet resigns. andrea leadsom, leader of the house of commons, says she no longer believes theresa may's government can deliver brexit. another cabinet minister says it is the end of the line for her. vote counting begins shortly in the world's largest democractic excercise, as indian prime minister narendra modi attempts to see off challenges to his premiership and keep a majority. and this story is trending on bbc.com. the queen paid a visit to a replica of a supermarket to mark its 150th anniversary. it is thought to be only the third time that britain's monarch has visited a supermarket. while being shown how to use the self—service checkout, she asked whether people could cheat while using them. that's all. stay with bbc world news.
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now on bbc news, it's hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. the surge in israeli—palestinian violence in gaza this month was relatively short—lived. the grim status quo remains intact, but maybe change is afoot. hamas‘s internal grip on gaza is threatened by rising economic discontent. the trump administration will soon unveil a peace plan built on economic incentives for the palestinian people. my guest today is hamas spokesman ghazi hamad. the movement's rhetoric is unbending, but do the palestinian people long for new ideas?
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ghazi hamad in gaza city, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much. let me ask you a simple question. when the people of gaza ask you how you and the hamas movement are going to make their lives better, what do you say? i think we are struggling, we are working day and night in order to ease the life of people in gaza here. but i think people there understand very well that the reason of this crisis is occupation, is the policy of the siege, is the policy of the blockade, is the pressure on gaza every day, because you know,
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gaza — israel looks to gaza as a hostile region, and they try to keep gaza under siege, blockade, sanctions, and striking every day. i think we are trying to stop this. i think we try to do that through two tracks — first of all, reconciliation, in order to have one authority, one political regime, one system, and also to be open to the world and also we are working on the track of the ceasefire agreement. i think we are trying, but i know that the situation in gaza is very critical, very difficult. but i think we have to have a final solution. you know, the situation in gaza, first of all, is not only humanitarian, it is political. if we put an end for the occupation in gaza, i think people could create the freedom, dignity and respect and they can move everywhere, they can do everything that they want. we understand that there are lots of things that you in gaza are not able to deliver,
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and you talk about what you call the israeli blockade, and you know that we on hardtalk talk to very seniorfigures in the israeli government about their policies towards the gaza strip. but i'm interested in what you can control, and the truth is that since hamas has been in power in gaza, which we're talking, what, 12,13 years, in fact, the situation for the people that you represent has gotten so much worse. there's been a near—tenfold increase in people who need to survive on food aid, for example. unemployment is now at a record of nearly 60%. so, whatever is in your gift to control, you're not controlling it effectively. as i said before, hamas is not so interested to keep control of gaza. i think because of this, we wanted the reconciliation since the beginning, in 2009, and we started negotiation
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with our brothers in fatah, and we told them let us now go back to two things. first thing is to have a coalition, a unity government, or we can go to the elections, presidential elections or parliament elections. we know that the situation in gaza is a big burden. it is a big challenge for us. it's not easy because gaza is like a big prison, closed from all sides, the gates of gaza are controlled by the occupation, gaza is under sanctions, under the control of the occupation. so it is not easy to find a genius solution for this situation unless we put down full the occupation in gaza but we are trying. there is no genius solution. i agree, of course, with that. but it does raise questions about the sense of your particular strategy. for example, just a couple of weeks ago, hamas‘s military wing, along with islamichhad, took the decision to fire hundreds of rockets into israel.
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now, i'm just wondering how you can convince anybody that that is in the long—term best interests of the people of gaza, given that itjust gives license to the israeli government to yet again impose the sort of economic blockade — maintain the blockade that you've just talked about. look, i think we are living in the big dilemma. we are under the occupation and we have to resist against this occupation, because the occupation is the source of all evils and all kinds of troubles in gaza here. and i think we are fighting the israeli occupation in order to live in freedom and dignity. i think this is something we could not be blamed for this. i think this is the responsibility of the international community. they should ask israel, you have to put an end for the occupation. you have to stop the settlements. let's go through this in detail. you talk about the occupation. of course, gaza is not occupied. israeli forces pulled out many years ago. you can talk as you do about the economic policies
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the israelis implement towards you. no, you misunderstand. you misunderstand. you have to ask yourself who controls the borders? who controls the exporting and importing in gaza? who controls the sea, who controls the air? i understand what you're saying. there is not an israeli military troop occupation of gaza. there used to be. inside gaza. you and your forces continue to lob those rockets inside israel and we had the leader of islamichhad, ziyad al—nakhaleh, say just the other day that the firing of the rockets that we saw earlier this month was, to use his words, quote, "just a live fire drill foran upcoming war." and my question is, again, what sense is there in using that kind of language if you want to best represent the people of gaza? look, stephen, you have to understand, we are a peaceful people.
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we want to live like any people in the world. we want to live in freedom. it is enough for us to live in 70 years of occupation and dilemma and troubles every day. and i think we are looking to live like you, in britain and everywhere, and we have to stop this. and i think now, israel... please, if you make comparison with what's happening in the west bank, in the west bank there is not firing rockets, there are not fighting, they are not under struggle in west bank. but in west bank, they are building settlements, they confiscate lands, they kill people, they put down 400, 500 checkpoints, they abuse the president, they now dismantle the palestinian authority. do you ask israel, why are they doing this? and there is no armed struggle against israel there. i think it is the israeli mentality that they want to punish, they want to delete the palestinian identity. they want to destroy our future. they want the palestinians to abolish our state, our future. i think what happens in gaza is the same,
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the policy of the occupation, they want gaza starving, suffering, people asking just for peace over the ground, they want gaza to be like this, to be oppressed and be broken. and i think we, as a palestinian faction, we want to stop this, and we want to stop this policy. and i think israel — look, we started to have a ceasefire agreement with the mediation of the egyptians and the qatari, and united states, but until now, israel is not party to this agreement. isn't there an alternative... i think they have to break... there is an alternative possibility, mr hamad, and that is these sporadic surges of violence between you and the israelis across this gaza border, they suit hamas in some ways, because it distracts attention from what is clearly a growing wave of popular protest inside your communities against the rule of hamas and the mismanagement of the economy. we saw in march unprecedented
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scale of street protests against hamas, which was greeted by your security and police officers beating people up, arresting them, torturing them in detention, and you, to take attention away from that, find it very useful to launch your rockets into israel. i think this is — maybe you misunderstand the situation, stephen, very well. i think we are trying here in gaza to keep the respect of people here. we try to go to israel for the people. we are struggling with other palestinian factions, with the ngos, with all sides, in order to make life happy for people here. but you know that, as i said, it is not an easy mission for us. it is not easy for hamas. that simply isn't true ‘cause you're clearly not working in cooperation with many of the ngos in gaza. you're in fact arresting members of important ngos. during these protests, the hamas police force not only arrested journalists, they also arrested two members
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of the independent commission for human rights, a palestinian watchdog group, and they proceeded to beat them up, with dozens of security officers involved. amnesty international said the human rights violations perpetrated by hamas against protesters, againstjournalists and human rights defenders, have become more severe than we have seen in more than a decade. i think, if you now have a round or a trip in the jails and the detention centres, in gaza, you will never find a political prisoner here. you will never find a journalist in the detention centre. you will not find anyone who is kept because of his political opinion now. i give you a chance now to come to gaza and to go everywhere and to ask. i don't deny that some mistakes were done in the past, with some people here and there, but i think we are under stronger pressure, sometimes
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from the occupation, sometimes from our brothers in ramallah that try to incite people now to go out against hamas outside to create a kind of chaos, to create a kind of violence here in gaza. and i think we are trying to keep gaza, as i said, as a calm, as a quiet area, because we want our people live in and freedom. please, stephen, you can come to gaza, you can ask all palestinian factions and ngos if there is just only one, one journalist or political activist in the prisons of hamas here in gaza. i don't know if you use social media, ghazi hamad, but have you seen the widely circulated videos of the protesters in gaza saying things like, and i'm quoting one woman that i've seen on video, saying that the sons of hamas leaders have houses, they have jeeps and big cars. they can get married, it's no problem for them,
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while ordinary people her have nothing, not even a piece of bread. when you see those sorts of video on social media, how do you respond to them? i don't think that you should now accept everything in the social media. i agree with you. but i'm just suggesting there is a wave of opinion in the communities inside gaza which is problematic for you and your leadership. please, i hope that you can come to gaza and see the people, different factions. i don't deny there are some people who criticise hamas, there are some people that don't like hamas, that's right. but if you come to gaza, there's some kind of democratic elections here in gaza. we ask the palestinian factions to share with us in order to rule the gaza strip here. we sit many times with the palestinians ngos here in gaza, in order to listen to them. if they violation, a criticism against hamas here, i think we are open. we try to correct and we try to do everything good for people here. i know we are not angels,
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i don't say that we don't make mistakes, but in general i think we are doing very hard in order to keep gaza calm and quiet. we try to avoid any kind of political unrest or closing the mouths of people or stop people talking or suppress their opinions. i think many articles are written in gaza and they're criticising hamas. they're speaking very sharply, very loudly, and no—one stops them. you gave access to a bbc documentary team last year to look at how one particular day in the march of return went. it was a day i believe in may 2018, may 14th, and the bbc film crew showed palestinians, including women, saying that they were being organised. we line up like a human shield so that the men can advance further. it did seem to portray a very careful co—ordination by hamas security forces of this march of return.
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and i just want to know whether in the future, from now on, whether hamas is going to continue to use the march of return in the way it appears to have used it in the past. look, sometimes when we adopt a military resistance they say hamas is a terrorist organisation. and we will now try to go to the peaceful means. they say this is also terrorism against israel. and i think people when they went to the borders, they are just peaceful people. they don't have guns. they don't have even stones. they don't have grenades. they have nothing. just people who protest in order to get attention of the world that there is a crisis in gaza. that the people deserve a state. the people deserve dignity. and ever since the beginning of this peaceful march — since 2018, we have about 300 people were killed. indeed. most of them are children, most people are innocent people, and most of them are women. and no—one account israel or stop them. and we have about 30,000 people who were injured.
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we have tried to keep it as peaceful. because it is our slogan, in order to keep this march as peaceful march. it is not a military march. and you will never find anyone who is military. crosstalk. we challenged the israelis on their use of lethal force, believe me, ministers have been challenged many times in this programme. but when palestinians amongst the protesters say things like this, quote, "some of us distracted the israelis with stones and molotov cocktails before an attempt was made to cut the border fence". are you telling me hamas wasn't aware of that? it seems very carefully organised under hamas‘s security control. look, ah, ithink, stephen, we don't want anyone to be injured, we don't want anyone to be killed. and i think we are... it's not shame. it is ourjob, we have tried to prevent people from being killed. it is ourjob. it's our people.
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we don't want to expose them to being killed by israeli snipers. excuse me... crosstalk. if you line up women and children like a human shield so the men can advance further, that, to me, is the very opposite of safeguarding the safety of your civilian population. we want to prevent people from being killed. sometimes we have negotiations and talk through the egyptian mediation in order to have scenes for agreement. mediation in order to have ceasefire agreement. so i think we don't want people, more people, to be killed or more people to be injured. but you know, you have to understand now, there's a sniper in the borders, they are sitting, they are comfortable, they use guns, they kill people, they shoot people in their head — in their abdomen, in their knees. as i said, we have about — we had more than 3000, 4000 people are
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handicapped now people. in addition to that, more than 20,000 people. we want israel to stop shooting people or to use live ammunition against people because it is a peaceful march. but i'm so astonished because the international community is keeping silent. sometimes they blame hamas for firing rockets, but they don't also blame israel for killing the innocent people in the borders, including children and women. isn't the truth, ghazi hamad, that hamas has been in power in gaza for an awful long time, benjamin netanyahu has been in power for a long time in israel and, of course, just won an election, and the truth is it suits both you in hamas and netanyahu to have the other as the reliable enemy? there is some sort of strange, symbiotic relationship which leaves both of you actually satisfied with the status quo because it allows you to perpetuate your own power. no, i think there is a big difference. i think, as i said, we want to end the occupation. netanyahu is not so interested now
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to end the problems of gaza. he will try with different choices. he tried through military strikes against gaza. he — through the collective sanctions — deployed collective strengthens, deployed the military strikes against, through the policy blockade. but i think he failed. now gaza is like a bone in his throat. he could not swallow it, he could not throw it outside. so i think israel should understand... if i may say so... crosstalk. sorry, ghazi hamad, i don't mean to interrupt too much. but if i may say so, surely the truth is the very opposite, that netanyahu uses the rhetoric of you and your leadership in hamas as a reason why he will not engage in any land for peace deal, will not talk about a 2—state solution, because he quotes leaders like fathi hamad of hamas who sat on the other day of the commemoration of the day that you call the nakba, or the catastrophe of 1948, fathi hamad said this,
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he said "that there will be victory, there will be an uprooting of the zionist enemy from our lands" and to israel's leaders he said "go away, the day of your slaughter and elimination is nearing. you have no place injerusalem, haifa, and jaffa". look, i don't care about what neta nyahu says. netanyahu could lie for his people, he could lie for the international community. i think he's full of lies and fabricated... crosstalk. but i'm asking you whether the language ijust quoted from fathi hamad is useful, is in the best interests of the people of gaza, yes or no? look, i think hamas said many times that we accept a palestinian state and 1962 borders. but i think we are not ready to recognise the right of israel because i think israel is a state of occupation. i think you should not blame the palestinians. you should blame the occupation and israel, because israel
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all the time is supplying the occupation either in west bank, in gaza they are supplying, they're supporting the killing of the palestinian people, so i think some people are very angry, arab people are upset. if you looked to the other side, he spent 25, 27 years in peaceful talks in negotiation with israel but he got nothing, he got a big zero. he got more settlements, more confiscation of lands, more isolation in the west bank, we got nothing. so what choice is left for the palestinians? let us now, just people they want the palestinians to be polite and just put flowers for the israeli occupation forces and just to keep silence? i think it is not logic. it is not fair. we have to struggle against the occupation. crosstalk. no—one would argue that the last 70 years have worked out well for the palestinians so maybe it's time forfresh thinking. donald trump and his team are going to launch their so—called deal of the century, a new plan for israeli—palestinian peace in june.
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it seems their focus will all be on economic incentives, not major political initiatives, but economic incentives to get tens of billions of dollars into the palestinian communities if they're prepared to make a peace, albeit with difficult decisions. are you prepared to listen to the trump deal? look, i've think he is the best stubborn president in the world. look, i think he is a wasting time, because, for two things — now no—one is convinced that trump is doing the right. he has no plan in his mind. i think he understands that he is the empire of the world. he could have changed everything. he gave israeljerusalem, he gave them the golan heights. now i think he is ready to give him iraq, qatar, and 0man. i think he thinks that he could, by his pencil, he could give israel everything.
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i think that a deal of the century will not be achieved, it will not be done, all palestinians, either the left or the other side, they are against us. i don't think the arabic war, the muslim war against the plan of the deal of the century. so i think he will fail. and i assure that today or tomorrow, trump, he will not be able to do anything to convince the palestinians or the arabs to accept his plan. so i think he should put it aside, i think, with something else. and do you think that that kind of rejectionism, before you've even heard what the plan is, is truly in the interests of the people of gaza who we have said, from the beginning of this interview, are suffering the most terrible economic deprivations is right now? no, i think we don'tjust reject. because i think in 70 years nobody gave us a final solution, stephen. no—one gave the palestinians a positive initiative. i think they are lying and lying, including europe, including the united states, including the international community,
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they are just lying. they are just giving the palestinian people tranquillizers. saying you have to wait for the american elections, the israel elections, you have to wait for the french initiatives, the british initiatives. i think we wasted 70 years and we are still living under the occupation. we are losing everything. so i think now the economic solution is not a solution. it is not a solution. we as the palestinians are looking political solution which says, frankly, the end of the occupation, the palestinians deserve a state, we have to establish a state. the occupation is over. this is our plan. but you should not deceive us with some money, with some financial solution. i think we are not poor people for money, we are poor just forfreedom. ghazi hamad, we have to end there. but i thank you very much forjoining me from gaza.
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hello there. the next couple of days are looking fairly dry for most of us with warm spells of sunshine but things are turning more unsettled and gradually cooler as we move through the bank holiday weekend. today was a largely dry one with warm spells of sunshine around, particularly across england and wales. these temperatures are what we begin the day on. more cloud and rain across the north—east of scotland because of this area low pressure pushing towards scandinavia. this front will bring thicker cloud towards the south—west of the country, with the odd spot of rain to the far south—west of england later on.
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thicker cloud for western parts of wales and northern ireland. a little bit of fairweather cloud, plenty of sunshine and highs of 23 degrees in the south—east. cooler, wetter and breezy for the north—east of scotland. the temperatures here are best around the mid—teens. into friday, this area of low pressure begins to thin and pull away and we have this feature running into northern ireland first thing on friday. thick cloud, a few showers and that will move across the irish sea into parts of england and wales bringing thicker cloud and a few showers into the afternoon. not quite as breezy in scotland and not quite as much rain. again in central and southern england we should see the low 20 celsius. 0n into the first part of the week and the bank holiday weekend we have this feature slowly edging in to the north—west of the country but for most of us it will be another largely dry day.
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variable cloud building up into the afternoon and the best of the sunshine across the south—east but then later thicker cloud for northern ireland in western scotland. another warm one in the sunshine for the self. then this feature really gets its act together and pushes in across our shores during sunday so a very different feeling day for many of us although east anglia and the south—east will stay dry with sunny spells throughout the day, although cloud will build further north. a few heavy bursts of rain in there, breezy as well, persistent for western scotland and a little cooler here. again, high teens and low 20s in the south—east. the bank holiday weekend looks mixed. starting with a lot of dry and sunny weather but then it turns wetter from sunday onwards and gradually turns cooler as the front moves through on the bank holiday monday. you can see next week it looks very cooler and more unsettled with rain and showers at times and also a bit of sunshine.
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hello and welcome to newsday. i'm kasia madera in london. the headlines: calls for the british prime minister to resign as the leader of the house of commons quits, saying she no longer believes the government's approach will deliver brexit. vote counting begins soon in india's election. it's been seen as referendum on prime minister modi — we'll tell you why the state of uttar pradesh is key to victory. people will be watching this state very closely. as they say in indian politics, the road to delhi passes through with our
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