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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  May 24, 2019 12:30am-1:00am BST

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our top story. india's prime minister narendra modi has secured another five—year term with a landslide victory in the country's general election. voters gave his bjp party an overwhelming majority in parliament, securing more than 300 of the 543 seats. the main opposition alliance, which is headed by rahul gandhi's congress party, has admitted defeat. the us justice department has unveiled 17 new charges against the wikileaks founder, julian assange. he's accused of violating the us espionage act by publishing classified military and diplomatic documents in 2010. and this video is trending on bbc.com. it shows the latest work by the mysterious street artist banksy made up of nine individually framed paintings to highlight the ongoing issue of big cruise ships docking in the canals of venice. that's all. stay with bbc news. now on bbc news, hardtalk‘s
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stephen sackur speaks to julie hambleton, founder ofjustice for the 21. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. in november 1974 the ira bombed two pubs in birmingham and murdered 21 people. more than 44 years later the inquest into those deaths was reopened, attended by the families of the victims, including julie hambleton, who lost her sister maxine. during the hearings one witness, a convicted former ira man, named four alleged perpetrators, butjustice in this terrible case has never been done. is it now too late to get to the truth?
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julie hambleton, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for inviting me. you have been through an extraordinary experience. you sat through week of a formal inquest hearing the most harrowing evidence about the death of your sister maxine seen and the twist to this is that she was actually murdered by an ira bomb more than 44 years ago. so what emotions, all this time later, did that inquest stir up the new? it
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was not just for me, did that inquest stir up the new? it was notjust for me, it was for all the families present throughout the inquest. and... it was the most harrowing time to experience, or for anyfamily to harrowing time to experience, or for any family to have to experience especially after so long because we had to fight for the inquest. we had to physically and legally fight for the inquest. but we heard they had a trauma specialist down there to deal with bomb blasts and he was explaining how a bomb blast can see through liquid faster than our. and i was sitting there and thinking why is he explaining that? how is that possible? how can something see through liquid faster than our? as he was going through his evidence of
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his experience it suddenly hit me like a his experience it suddenly hit me likea car his experience it suddenly hit me like a car crash and i collapsed in the court and was inconsolable. my sister had to walk me out and there we re sister had to walk me out and there were counsellors available. and i was inconsolable because i realised that how maxime was killed because i have never said this... in an interview before but her injuries we re interview before but her injuries were that one leg was blown off and her back was completely blown away. and so the fact that the bomb blast can see through liquid faster than air, it was only nanoseconds but your body is made of liquid. and they were basically saying that...
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because we have always been worried that our loved ones may have still been alive for seconds or minutes, no—one can possibly know what goes through 1's mind when you are dying and that has been hard for us to ta ke and that has been hard for us to take on board in our own thoughts and especially for our mother because mum identified maxime and she said that... she did not tell us that, she only told us five years ago to protect. she said her hair was melted into herface and you could not see herface because was melted into herface and you could not see her face because the blasts had just... she only had fine hair, it had melted away to herface and all of this came out in the inquest. and i think for anyone who
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has not experienced what you have experienced as a family it is impossible to imagine the feelings you must have had. but it is so remarkable to me that you had to sit there and listen to all this 44 yea rs there and listen to all this 44 years 01’ more there and listen to all this 44 years or more after the event because of very complex legal procedures. i wonder if there was any sense in which you felt, in a way, a sense of satisfaction that the british state was, in 2019, at least reopening the inquest, going through all the terrible evidence and, ina through all the terrible evidence and, in a sense, saying to britain and, in a sense, saying to britain and the world that this still matters. i know i am laughing and it is not a laughing matter by any stretch of the imagination but you said actually did not take place. because not all of the evidence was heard or seen. because we still have
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mis heard or seen. because we still have m15 and heard or seen. because we still have mi5 and mi6 heard or seen. because we still have m15 and m16 and the ministry of defence and the ministry ofjustice informing us and our legal team that they have no documentation on england's biggest mass murder of the 20th century in peacetime history. they claim that they have no documentation on this whatsoever. but we know for a fact that there is evidence that has been put under public immunity... paperwork, documentation, out of sight out of mind, for over 75 years and that was in 1991 when the men known as the birmingham six were released. 50 is birmingham six were released. so is it your contention that there has been, almost from the get go in terms of the policing and security force investigation of the birmingham bombings, that there has been what you are peer to be saying was a comprehensive, state driven cover—up. was a comprehensive, state driven cover-up. absolutely. yes.
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absolutely. let's make it a little easierfor the viewers to understand. when my brother and i and our fantastic supporters from around the world started this campaign over eight years ago, we have had every single obstacle put in ourway by have had every single obstacle put in our way by the british authorities that you could imagine. every single obstruction to the point where when we eventually got oui’ point where when we eventually got our legal team on or —— board, we had to physically cross the sea, go to another country for our legal representation. they are representing us pro bono which is unsustainable. we then had to fight to get the inquest because we were
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fighting m15, m16, the ministry of defence, the ministry ofjustice, west midlands police and emergency services, all of whom did not want us services, all of whom did not want us to have an inquest. why would that be? they were telling the then senior coroner of birmingham and solihull that she did not have the authority resume the inquest. 21 bombings were murdered in birmingham. she is the senior coronerfor birmingham. she is the senior coroner for birmingham and birmingham. she is the senior coronerfor birmingham and solihull and they tell her she does not have the authority to resume this inquest? let mejust, for the authority to resume this inquest? let me just, for all of our viewers and listeners around the world, let me remind everybody of the nature of this bomb attack because there we were in november 1974, two bombs went off within minutes of each other into crowded city centre pubs. 21 people were killed and your sister maxime who was 18 at the time was one of them. in very short order the police launched a massive investigation. six men were arrested and put on trial and convicted of the
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birmingham bombs but of course we 110w birmingham bombs but of course we now know that the police investigation was entirely fraud, those men were not guilty and by 1991, finally through appeals, they we re 1991, finally through appeals, they were released. they were not the guilty man. but this therefore has become and always has been a most contentious of cases. when the inquest was reopened it was made quite clear and i will quote to you the words of the senior counsel to the words of the senior counsel to the coroner, there is no evidence of any the coroner, there is no evidence of a ny state the coroner, there is no evidence of any state agent or informant having knowledge of the bombings. the coroner himself then says after exhaustive enquiry they had drawn a com plete exhaustive enquiry they had drawn a complete blank in terms of any agents or informants having prior knowledge and it seems to me your contention that the state somehow knew that the bombing was going to ta ke knew that the bombing was going to take place in the cover—up has been on that basis, it has no grounds in evidence. there are so many
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arguments i could throw back at you with reference to that particular quote. because there was another quote. because there was another quote that one of the coroner ‘s qcs came out with where he did actually say, because the client was saying to him, after that he asked if there was any evidence and peter skelton qc actually said yes, there is evidence about the bombers. but you have excluded it from this inquest. i understand the seriousness of what you are alleging. some people watching this will, i think, already feel the deepest sympathy for you. the deepest sympathy. but will perhaps feel that given what your family has lost, what you have been through and let's not forget you we re through and let's not forget you were only 11 years old when you lost your older sister maxime, they may say to themselves that here is a woman who is fuelled by grief, loss and angerand it
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woman who is fuelled by grief, loss and anger and it has led her to conclusions which are simply not justified by the evidence. we have not seen all of the evidence. you cannot say it is justified by the evidence because we have not seen all the evidence. what you have to remember is that an inquest is an inquest, it is not an investigator 01’ inquest, it is not an investigator or tool. it not a criminal case. if it became a criminal case or it became a public enquiry for instance we would have access to all kinds of a range of documents that we did not have access to in the inquest. and thatis have access to in the inquest. and that is the difference. understood. because the parliament chosen made the decision that anything to do with the informants issues or anything to do with the perpetrator issues was to be excluded from the inquest. and then his qc admitted in court that yes there is evidence but, your honour, you have excluded it from this inquest. but, actually,
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even though the inquest had specifically ruled out going into theissues specifically ruled out going into the issues of who carried out the bombing and the police investigation, nonetheless in the inquestjust investigation, nonetheless in the inquest just those few short weeks ago it did come out, thanks to the testimony of a man known as witness oh, a former convicted ira man, a bomb maker who spoke to the court, he named for individuals who he said to his knowledge were involved in the birmingham bombings. he said, and this was something found hard to sutton, he said he had permission from the current head in of the ira and to give these four names. point is, the police, the west midlands police after the inquest, againjust a short time ago, said that of those names, three net we now know are deceased and the police had investigated those three deceased individuals at the time of the bombing in 1974 and had found
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insufficient evidence to take any further action against them at the time. so clearly the police were investigating it is just that they appear to have lacked the evidence to get the man. it is not a matter of lack of evidence, it is a matter of lack of evidence, it is a matter of lack of interest. the fact that they know that they messed up all those years ago of which your interview with paddy hill some years ago... to remind people, paddy hill was one of the men known as the birmingham six. wrongly accused to spent so long in prison for a crime they did not commit. i remember speaking to him long after he was released and, frankly, in many ways a broken man and angry. understandably angry man. absolutely. if you had been put away for 16.5 years for something you had not committed you would be right to be angry with the state. and what you are saying about what i am implying, what i am implying about
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the state hiding information, well... the birmingham six of the perfect example of hiding information. of misleading the public. look at so many others.... 0n public. look at so many others.... on that point about paddy hill who did speak out obviously after what had happened about the failings of the system, did you reach out to paddy hill after he was released, after a ll paddy hill after he was released, after all those years of wrongful imprisonment? no, we met paddy hill in 2013 through a documentary done on the bbc and it took him about six months to meet paddy and we did. at the time it was the hardest thing we had ever done because we thought we were meeting someone who had murdered our sister — my brother and i met with him — and it was the best thing we ever did. he is one of our
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staunchest supporters and everything he promised to do he hasn't done and he promised to do he hasn't done and he now continues to speak out about the cover—up of the birmingham bombing. — — he has done. the cover—up of the birmingham bon want — — he has done. the cover—up of the birmingham bon want done ie has done. the cover—up of the birmingham bon want done now? done. the cover—up of the birmingham bon want done now? dor have had the you want done now? we have had the fence, —— and chris, all the detail is in the public domain. you say the police have to do more, more investigation, the truth has to be got to, but how? well, the police are employed and paid to do a job and that is what we expect them to do. the inquest has left the gottlieb at the chief constable of the midlands police's door. —— gauntlet. they said we will look at
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this and investigate accordingly. well, your evidence came out of the blue for a witness and some others, and we now expect west midlands police to go and interview, with the assistance of the garda in ireland, and police services in northern ireland, to interview two of the suspects that are still alive that have been named in court and out of court, and to find out what they know and if they have any links to bring about a prosecution. we want, oui’ bring about a prosecution. we want, ourfamily —i bring about a prosecution. we want, ourfamily — i can't speakfor the otherfamilies — ourfamily — i can't speakfor the other families — but ourfamily — i can't speakfor the otherfamilies — but ourfamily ourfamily — i can't speakfor the other families — but our family want a prosecution. what sort of a country are we going to leave for future generations if we allow mass murderers to continue to have their liberty without any fear of retribution? where they come to our
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centre, kill with impunity and know that nobody is going to come looking for them? is that the kind of society we want to leave future generations. i chose to have children because of the loss of maxime had such a massive impact on me. the thought of losing a child, i am not strong enough to cope. i would never have coped losing a loved one, a child of my own. how oui’ loved one, a child of my own. how our mother coped and other families and thousands of others are coped, i will never understand. the loss of my sister left its mark and it is embedded in our dna now. you put that incredibly powerfully but the truth is, some of the names that came out during the inquest have been around for a long time and certain individuals, including chris mullin, and for example the former
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intelligence chief of the ira, kevin:, are quite open they have some information, they know certain things about the background of the bombers but for various reasons they cannot and will not go public with that information. are you saying that information. are you saying that somehow they must be forced to give that information? do you know what is interesting, is how outsiders, like yourself, view our perspective, our fight. imagine, anyone who is listening, imagine your son, your daughter, your mother, your father, your son, your daughter, your mother, yourfather, your brother, your sister, is blown up beyond recognition — some could not be recognised — then you discover that
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not only are they an ex— journalist, an mp... chris mullin. chris mullin did more than anybody else to uncover the inept police investigation, the injustice of looking up a six men who are innocent of the crime. without him, none of the clarity that has come to this case would never have been achieved. you have no argument from me that but that is where it ends because you — that he has refused... because he gave a place to those people who agreed to talk to him that, as long as they were alive, they gave him crucial information, he would not disclose their identities. i am sorry but anyone who has the sort of information,
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whether they are keeping it, how he is able to sleep at night is incomprehensible to all of us stop incomprehensible to all of us stop incomprehensible even to our supporters. he claims to have journalistic ethics but his moral compass is a journalistic ethics but his moral compass is a zero journalistic ethics but his moral compass is a zero because he has knowledge of murderers... but he would say that without those ethics, without that pledged anonymity, he would never have got the story in the first place and you would be none the wiser. yes, paddy hill would be in prison as with the other five but why stop there? why not assist us with coming forward... because a principal is a principal. not when there is murder involved, absolutely not, not when there is murder involved. to me it is
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inexcusable and there is no excuse, absolutely no excuse. that's like saying i shook his hand, it is a gentleman ‘s word, when he knows they were a murderer. you have been a driving force forjustice for the 21 movement. and you are determined to get to the truth who did the birmingham bombing is but do you believe after more than 44 years that you can ever get that truth? absolutely. listen, if we don't do it, we know the authorities will not do it. when the birmingham six were released, nobody came forward and said, ok, if they did not do it, we need to find who did do it. devon and cornwall were content to do three investigations butjust to do with their investigation not re— investigating. it was cold aston 1-2, investigating. it was cold aston 1—2, three. i cannot discuss that
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because we had to sign paperwork just to do with the west midlands police. you want an open public enquiry now. yes and we also want public prosecution but what you have to remember is that this. we have been blocked at every single juncture because we fighting the juggernaut of the british establishment. what people need to understand and i know this goes around world so what people need to understand is when the legal aid was first implemented, it was the foundation of our welfare state and the welfare was part of the mechanism for us to bring the state to account but the legal aid has now ceased to exist in its original format. it does not do what it says on the tape. this is a matter of right or wrong and if the right or wrong here is that our loved ones
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deserve the right for truth, justice and accountability. where legal aid is concerned, where we have not been given equality of legal aid because the inequality of legal aid is so much brought to the fore when it has all been arranged by unelected civil serva nts all been arranged by unelected civil servants who hide in the shadow where, at the behest of whitehall officials, whose only course of action is to do with cost, how can you possibly put a cost on our loved ones lives and justice? this campaign has taken up most of your aduu campaign has taken up most of your adult life. yes. it may take up... the rest of my life. are you prepared to live with that? if i don't add my brother and all the otherfamilies don't add my brother and all the other families and supporters don't, we know one thing for sure is that the government and the british authorities will not do it. but i beg to add, the gauntlet is at dave
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thompson's door. we hope he doesn't justice and right by the 21. julie hambleton we have to and they but i thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you. thank you, julie. hello there. we saw a top temperature of 25 degrees at heathrow, in london, on thursday. there was a lot of sunshine around. it felt warm for many places and that's led to a fairly mild night across some southern areas. temperatures no lower 11 or 12 degrees in the london area to start friday. but a big cooler in some
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of the rural spots. now, the pressure chart for friday shows this feature which will bring thicker cloud, maybe a few showers to more western parts of the country through the day, but we're starting off with plenty of sunshine. more cloud across parts of scotland and that cloud will tend to extend a little bit further southwards. like i mentioned, that feature bringing in a few showers to parts of western england and wales. hit—and—miss showers really. many places staying dry. the best of the sunshine and the warmth again across the south—east quadrant — 22 or 23 degrees. around the mid—teens celsius further north. this is of the area of low pressure which is goign to be this is of the area of low pressure which is going to be the game—changer through the bank holiday weekend. introducing cloud, the breeze and the lower temperatures. so we will start off with a bit of sunshine around for the bank holiday weekend. then it goes downhill really through saturday night into sunday. and it will be cooler for all for bank holiday monday, with a scattering of showers. the picture for saturday though isn't too bad for much of the country, particularly in england and wales. best of the sunshine here. maybe just one or two
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showers around. but it's scotland, northern ireland, the far north of england which starts to cloud up later in the day, and we'll start to see the rain pushing in and it will becoming breezy too. temperatures here 10—15 degrees. high teens, low 20s celsius across england and wales. then this area of low pressure moves in during saturday night and it turns wetter across many northern and western areas. and gradually that weather front will be sinking slowly southwards and eastwards throughout sunday. some of the rain could be quite heavy, persistent across northern areas, and then the showery rain starts to push in into parts of wales and into england. eventually reaching the south—east later on in the day. maybe something a little bit brighter to end the day across northern ireland, northern england. but a cooler feel to the day. the north making 21 degrees. the cold front sweeping south—eastwards. introducing cooler air. monday, low pressure hanging around bringing quite a breezy day, more cloud across the northern half of the country with more persistent rain. england and wales,
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breezy with a mixture of sunshine and showers. those temperatures 9—17 degrees. noticeably cooler. it looks like it remains unsettled throughout next week. plenty of showers, particularly across northern areas. a little bit of sunshine especially in the south.
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welcome to newsday on the bbc. i'm rico hizon in singapore, the headlines: india's prime minster narendra modi wins another five—year term in a landslide victory for his hindu nationalist party. the usjustice department announces 17 new charges against the wikileaks founder — julian assange. i'm ben bland in london. also in the programme: the uk government delays publication of theresa may's revised brexit plans as speculation mounts the prime minister will soon announce her resignation. and tying the knot in taiwan, where it's now legal for same—sex couples to get married.

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