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now on bbc news, hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, from nairobi. i'm stephen sackur. now, in kenya, hope and despair live side by side. there is economic growth, technological transformation, and a youthful population hungry for opportunity. there is also grinding poverty, inequality, and endemic corruption. my guest today is one of kenya's most popular musicians, eric wainaina. his songs have confronted issues which kenya's politicians often prefer to avoid. so how political is this artist prepared to be?

eric wainaina, welcome to hardtalk. it's good to be here. you have been making music for three decades or so. if you think about the music you made at the beginning, and the sort of music you're working on now, what's changed? well, the music i'm making now is a lot more personal. when i started off, i came from a gospel background, you know. and then there's a lot of pressure in the music industry, coming from a church background, you know, to toe a particular line. but i felt that... first of all, i had been raised in a very despotic era, in both the original kenyatta, and then president moi. you mean culturally and politically? culturally and politically, you know. and i had come of age at a time when kenya was a single—party state.

and sort of coming from a church background and coming from this sort of political straitjacketing, as it were, i felt i wanted to have a message in my music that brought people together, that made us focus on what was going wrong in kenya. at one point, i was singing for this a capella group, and our leader was coming back to nairobi from his rural hometown, and he said to us, you know, because we've got so many people — we've got the attention of kenya, we need to address issues. he was coming back from the rift valley, and on either side of the highway, homes were on fire, and he said look, we've just got to do something about this. but recently, i think ijust wanted to write a record, this new one that i've just put out, called dreams in stereo, that addresses a lot more personal stuff. it's an album that talks about passion, betrayal, and redemption. i want to take you through that journey in the course of this interview, so i want to actually go back now to consider you as a young man making your way in music.

even younger. even younger than you are now, good point. you did something unusualfor a lot of kenyan and african musicians. you went to study music in the united states. and i wonder if that changed your sensibility, in some way, your musical sensibility? completely. i went to the berklee college of music, in boston, and berklee is — it's a very charged musical state, you know. first of all, you're out in boston as a kenyan, and the first thing people ask you is, do you run? because of the boston marathon. so it's the kind of space where if a kid is waiting for a drum practice room, right, they'll have a drum pad strapped to their knee, and they'll be going away at it. i remember standing in a 7—eleven once, waiting for a cup of coffee, and this guy in front of me has got an unplugged electric bass. and he's thumbing away, you know, and that kind of environment can only make you a better musician, you know? so i think it changed the way

i look at perfection. it changed how complacent i can ever be, you know? but you also said something interesting. you said, reflecting on it, you said it actually also made you invest in your kenyan—ness. that's correct. what do you mean by your kenyan—ness, particularly in terms of music? well, i mean, having been raised in nairobi, nairobi is this cultural melting pot, you know. and so, when i was growing up, you turn on the radio and you could hear anything from sort of quasi—traditional stuff to the jackson 5, you know? and so i grew up sort of listening to all these different sounds, but kind of leaning towards what was coming from the west. and so when i showed up in america, they said to us, look, if we wanted to hear boyz ii men, we'd go and see boyz ii men, right? so play us kenyan song. and i wasn't sure what that meant, so i came back home to sort of immerse myself and hang out with a couple of kenyan musicians

and find out exactly what it meant. and i'm just wondering also, i mean, leaving aside the kenyan—ness, the african—ness of your sound, i wonder how much you are influenced by for example fela kuti, who was one of the great african musicians of your childhood and earlier years. and of course, he combined music with incredible bravery, activism. he was arrested dozens of times. he was imprisoned once, i think, for 20 months by the nigerian military government. mm—hm, that's correct. was he somebody you looked to and took inspiration from? i took inspiration from fela, definitely, from his message and how direct he was, you know, in his lyric. but i also took influence from others, including ayub ogada, who sadly passed away the other day. i also took inspiration

from paul simon, you know? interestingly, growing up in kenya, listening to the stuff we were listening to, graceland was... it was just a stop in history for us. and everyone gives paul simon a really hard time for, you know, did he come from america and steal all these african sounds... yeah, the idea that it was a crossover which was somehow superficial, or selling out, or... but i mean, i listened to that stuff, and hearing african traditional melody and harmony and rhythm with english lyrics on it, i mean, for us that was new ground. now, we're doing that every day now, but in 1988, that was mind—blowing. now i mentioned fela kuti in particular because of his activism, and the degree to which in your early years, and you've already referred to it, you make a point of singing songs which have clear messages for kenya and for the kenyan people. i'm thinking of a couple. let's start with the one

which was entitled in english — of course it was in swahili, but the english translation would be kenya only. it was released in the ‘90s, and it became almost like a national anthem after the terrible al qaeda bombing of the us embassy in nairobi, which killed more than 200 people, when the nation came together, and it was your song that seemed to express the spirit of kenya at the time. i wonder how you felt about that, because you became suddenly the sort of favourite songwriter of the nation. well, i mean, when i look back, i might have called that song kenya always, as opposed to kenya 0nly, ‘cause it's not about exclusivity, you know, or exclusion. so here we were. kenya had just come into a multi—party — we had just returned to multi—party democracy. for the last 20 years, we'd been a single—party state. in the ‘90s, you couldn't even imagine or contemplate the death of the president, for instance. and so here we were, we were having

this huge political debate. but one of the things that was happening was that tribes were being pitted against each other, you know, and someone was benefiting from that politically. and i said — look, it's funny, i mean, someone said to me... this guy came up to me in a bar and he said, write a song for kenya's football team, right? and that's how that song started, because kenya's football team was doing well, for once. i was going to say, they needed all the help they could get. you know, and so i started writing it and said no, i need to write about something sort of larger than that. and so — it's funny, you write a song about people coming together and rejecting sort of political division, you know, and tribalism on ethnic lines. and then the bomb went off, and suddenly it was being reinterpreted, repositioned, as a song about solidarity in this moment of sadness, you know? and it wasn't until three years

later when i translated it into swahili, which is our national language, that it began to sort of permeate areas of the country that it hadn't yet gotten to. and then, after the post—election violence, is when it actually became a sort of household song. but then you had a platform, and you chose to use that platform to write perhaps your most controversial song, or at least it was at the time, which was — i guess, again, the english translation loosely would be "a country of small things." and the small things would very clearly be a euphemism for bribes. that's right. and it really was a song that described the pervasive and endemic corruption that kenyan people have had to live with for so long. that's correct. that brought you into confrontation with the authorities. # nchi ya kitu kidogo.

i understand from just looking at the record that there were radio stations that wouldn't play it. you attempted to play it once in front of a bunch of senior officials, including politicians, and your microphone was switched off. to what extent did you feel the harassment, the intimidation? this is what happened, stephen, to be honest. i put out that record while i was a student in america. and we were playing this one show, the kenya music festival, and like you say, they tried to switch off my microphone, tried to stop us from singing the song. and the then—vice president was there, and it was the sort of height of president moi's sort of corrupt government. and i was getting really intimidated

by these guys being like, look, turn it off, turn it on, right? but the audience had started to sing the song, you know, and the dancers that i was with onstage, and the choreographers, were saying dance hard, dance harder. and it's funny how as artists we respond to societies, the social conditioning saying this is how we feel about a thing. turn it into words and music, right? and you do that, and at your moment of weakness, society then comes back and gives you the strength you need to go on. and so i mean, thankfully, at the height of the song's success, i was a student in the us, and so i didn't actually get harassed as much as would increase my street cred. right, but while corruption is perhaps even worse today in kenya, according to all the independent measures, you no longer sing those songs, or you don't write new songs along those lines. what has happened to your impulse to protest? well, that's the thing, stephen. i don't know what it is. i guess i'm at a place right now, i've been married for a number of years, been dating the same woman for20 years, and... ijust — i went through a bunch of personal stuff, and i wanted

to talk about a bunch of personal things. you know, iwanted... i'm sorry to interrupt you, but ijust — i'm thinking of fela kuti, i'm thinking of all the people who regarded you, with that particular anti—corruption song, as a sort of a torchbearer fora campaign. and then i look at transparencies — latest figures, kenya 144th in the world in terms of its corruption index. that is “ich out of 180 — not a good place to be. even yesterday, in central nairobi, in uhuru park, there were people protesting about endemic corruption, and tear gas was used by the police to disrupt them. we've got academics saying that kenyans are so fed up, something will have to give. and yet you've sort of opted out. you know, so a bunch of years ago

i started to write a bunch of articles, you know, expressing my dismay at the fact that, despite the fact that our now—president and vice president were wanted by the icc, and were pretty much implicated for initiating the violence... that is the violence in the 07—08 election period. that's right, that's right. kenya had turned a blind eye, you know? and it was funny, i would write these articles, i would say all these things, play all these shows, you know, and people come up to you and they say we agree with you completely. but, when it comes to the ballot box, everything always goes down tribal lines. so in a sense, maybe i felt a bitjaded, you know. i actually find it hard to watch the news right now, you know. i mean, someone once said the world is a tragedy for those who feel and a comedy for those who think. and sadly, i think i'm both, you know? and so... but that is depressing, is it not, that you have that sense of sort of weary resignation about the failure of

the country to change. um, i have not lost hope. and i mean, i think that one of the things that i continue to do, and i mean, talking about this personal information, right, this personal stuff right now, has only served to increase the things i have to say to an audience or when i am playing my live shows. there is no... i am not despondent in any way but right now i feel i want to talk about something different. if i may, i'm just wondering, i'm thinking about, for example, in neighbouring uganda, i'm thinking about bobi wine, another very well—known african musician, ugandan success story who was very political, who then decided, actually, to pursue a political career — he was elected into the ugandan parliament — and has been harassed ever since, indeed, he has spent a lot of time injail. he is currently, again, in detention, under arrest, accused of various crimes

by the ugandan authorities. does it seem to you that, in your own country, maybe in neighbouring countries as well, it is impossible to use your creative voice in a very political way, without ending up, frankly, losing your freedom? no, i think we can. and i mean, right now in kenya, we are standing on the shoulders of those who have gone before. sort of academics or artists who have spoken out against government repression. i do think that in a country like kenya, it is... there is a slow uptake and i'm beginning to question myself about the best way to address political change. ethnically, people feel like they are living vicariously through their political leaders and don't care whatever they are accused of. they want to have their person in power.

as i think about it more and more, i'm thinking, one thing that is unassailable is, if we talk about the failure in policy, it doesn't matter what tribe you are, it doesn't matter who you supported, show me your healthcare, show me your free education, show me the promises that were made and have they been fulfilled? and ifeel that is a much stronger way of beginning to invoke political change. but one of the things that i think we need to understand is that it is going to be slow. people talk about ethnicity stopping in my father's generation, i do not think so. i wonder how you ensure that you engage with kenyans because, after all, this is a country of massive inequalities. there is very wealthy elite but there are millions of kenyans living in deep poverty. we could walk a few kilometres from here into kibera, one of the biggest urban slums

in africa, we could find people living in absolute poverty. i wonder whether you feel your music is for them? is it reaching them? well, i'd hate to think that we could pigeon—hole kibera's artistic experience into just saying, people in kibera only listen to reggae or only listen to hip—hop, right. i ride through kibera every single day and it's such a mosaic of humanity. living, you know. you can get the best haircuts in the world in kibera, you can get some of the best food in kibera. but would you hear eric wainaina's songs on the radio, on the sound systems in kibera? well, you might not hear my songs but they are not choosing what is being played on the radio. i will happily go play again in kibera. and i will get the audience going... do you? i mean, do you go there? do you make a point of reaching out

and playing gigs in that sort of part of the city? i do, i do, i do. i have not played in kibera in a while. but baba dogo, which is another slum in nairobi, we were doing a weekly gig there for a bunch of months... interesting, are they, the young people, of kibera or indeed the many other poor parts of this country, are they, do you think, listening more to american rap and hip—hop than they are to the sort of fusion music that you're making right now? well, i think everyone in the world is listening to a lot more american hip—hop, sort of indigenous music. does that bother you? yes, it does but it also challenges me. i mean, no—one is sort of standing there and they're like, i'm going to listen to beyonce more than i'm going to listen to eric because...

i mean i take that as a challenge. i actually just watched beyonce‘s homecoming and kanye west's sunday service — itell you, it liberated me. we've started doing our shows in the round, and i am going like, here i am, i'm standing at the keyboard now, and i'm sort of directing things on stage and i'm calling shots and i — you know — i am never going to be the guy who hears something and that may be better than mine and not be challenged by it. if we want to compete with american music, with nigerian music, while i do agree there might be some sort of policy, some nurturing et cetera, i think ijust have to bring my best game. and can you do it? can you compete? because we know of west african artists who, over years, have made a big success in europe and, to a certain extent, in the united states.

maybe not so much here in east africa and here in kenya. but do you have a vision for yourself where you can become — let's be brutal about it — a pop star, in the uk, the us? i am as good or better than any global pop star. the only thing standing between myself or any sort of artist in this side of the world and global participation is hundreds and millions of dollars, right? i am as good... i am not trying to be adversarial but i'm as good as sam smith, i'm as good as ed sheeran. i do not look as good as beyonce... but i suppose the issue is whether those markets that obviously would bring the riches to you, whether it be the us or europe, whether they are truly open and accessible to a musician from kenya with your background?

they are not yet but we're getting there. it has to make business sense to whoever our collaborators are going to be, whether it's record companies, and promoters... is that why you — i mean, your most recent album, dreams in stereo, is in english? is that a conscious decision — i am going to sing my songs in english, i'm going to write accessible songs, i'm going to write songs that i believe will do well in the uk or the us? no, first of all, i can't guarantee that a song will do well in the us just because it is in english. i wrote that record in english because that is what came out. i sat at my piano and i did try to write some political songs, i did try to write some songs in swahili but theyjust were not coming. i could not leave here, leave this studio, without asking you to play something, to play us out.

is there one particular song that means a lot to you that you would like to play for me before we end? yes, i will play... what is it? can we fly away together. what is it about? tell me the background of the song. it is... i wrote it one morning. i was actually trying to write what i thought be — i'm writing this musical about this kenyan—indian girl who falls in love with a kenyans boy — which is a total no—no in kenya. and so i started writing what i thought was this indian—sounding melody, then it morphed into something else and it's...it‘s... we all want to escape from the traffic, from everything that we are having to face every day, with our loved ones and...loved one and be in a special place and that is what the song is about.

all right, let's hear it now. eric wainaina, thank you so much for being on hardtalk. thank you, stephen. # can we fly away together, tell no—one, don't leave a number. # we won't need no money either in our state of mind. # we won't share it with a soul what we plan and where we're going. # baby, we don't need to know it. # leaving it all behind. # i've got a motorbike, got some change for the ride. # got some wine for the night when we talk low. # got some poems in my book. # got some things i'd like to cook you. # got some stories that i swear i've never told. # can we fly away together,

tell no—one, don't leave a number, # we won't need no money either, in our state of mind. # we won't share it with a soul, what we plan and where we're going. # baby, we don't even know it. # leaving it all behind...#. hello. one thing we're certainly not short of at the moment is cloud across the uk. and through today, it will tend to stick around in many areas and bring some rain into the north. by the weekend, though, i'm hopeful we will see more in the way of sunshine and we're gonna see things significantly warming up for some. more on that in just a moment. a lot of warm air coming in from the atlantic in the next few days but it's coming up to the south of this frontal system. that will mean a lot of cloud around, more persistent rain

across the northern half of the uk in the short term as well, but by the weekend, high pressure will start to push in from the south, thin the cloud, and allow more sunshine. today, though, most of us are gonna be stuck with fairly grey skies. and across the northern half of the uk, some more persistent rain as the day goes on. heavy at times, possibly for northern ireland, the south—west of scotland, parts of the north—west of england and maybe the far north—west of wales, too. to the far north of scotland, some sunshine for the northern isles, to the south, some brighter skies to the lee of high ground. breezy day across the board, particularly gusty around western coasts and across the hills. murky in the west as well. just 11 degrees there in aberdeen, but up to 23 if we get some brightness across the south—east of england. 0vernight thursday into friday, looking at more wet weather across the northern half of the uk but hopefully, the cloud to the south perhaps thinning and breaking a little as the hours go by. high pressure trying to squeeze

its influence further north. certainly, a mild enough start to friday, but once again, you can see rain waiting to push into northern ireland and western scotland. and through the day, that frontal system continues to buckle to the north of the uk, so there will be more heavy downpours. to the south, the high is nearby and that should allow the cloud to thin and break a little more. see a bit more in the way of sunshine. and temperatures creeping up across england and wales on friday, into the mid 20s. but the heaviest of the rain for northern ireland and western scotland. but by saturday, that high throws its influence further north. we should see more in the way of widespread sunshine and a pretty warm day, even across the northern half of the uk, but to the south, we could get up to 27 celsius in the south—east of england. a very short spike of a heat wave, though. by sunday, the weather picture starts to become quite showery across the uk, and that will see our temperatures beginning to slide away. still a pretty pleasant day

to come, though, on sunday. in the sunny spells there will be some warmth around. turning chillier, though, next week.

welcome to newsday. i'm lewis vaughanjones in london. at least seven people have been killed, after a cruise boat capsized on the river danube in the hungarian capital, budapest. police are still searching for survivors. us special counsel robert mueller breaks his silence on the russia investigation but declines to clear president trump of obstructing justice. if we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commita crime, we would have said so.

we did not, however, make a determination