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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  June 11, 2019 4:30am-5:01am BST

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this is bbc news. the headlines: the trump administration is saying it may still apply trade tariffs if, within six weeks, itjudges that mexico hasn't done enough to limit migration to the us. a deal agreed on friday includes mexico sending more troops to its southern border to stem arrivals from central america, heading for the us border. the vatican has released a new document attacking the modern understanding of gender as something more complex than a straightforward binary division of sexes. it claims the current debate about gender identity annihilates the concept of nature and destabilises the family, and that people claiming anything other than a binary gender are just being provocative. lgbt groups say it will encourage bigotry, hatred, and violence. canada's announced a ban on the single—use plastics that are most harmful to the environment and the world's oceans. prime ministerjustin trudeau says the ban on items such as straws, cutlery, bags, and cotton buds will come into effect in two years‘ time.
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now on bbc news — it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm at stephen sackur. britain's opposition labour party should be in buoyant mood. the ruling conservatives are in a brexit meltdown, currently looking for a new leader, and languishing in the polls. but far from taking advantage labour is also haemorrhaging support, accused of incoherence on brexit and a failure to confront a corrosive internal strain of anti—semitism. my my guest is a labour mp and former minister, margaret hodge. does she think her own party leadership is fit for office?
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margaret hodge, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. britain is living through an extraordinary political moment. there is a real sense of crisis in this country, of course, concerning brexit. yet you, as a senior member of the labour party, seem to spend most of your time and energy on the accusations of anti—semitism inside your own party. how on earth did this happen? they agree with you, first of all, that it is completely ridiculous that i am having to devote so much of my time to this issue. i'm a very secularjew. they
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never thought my jewish issue. i'm a very secularjew. they never thought myjewish identity would consume my time in politics. you have been forced into this position. because sincejeremy corbyn became the leader of the labour party, the anti—semitism, which has always existed on the fringes of the party, has been allowed to move to the mainstream. and the massive online anti—semitic abuse that i received really forced me to act. to put it into a little bit of context, i have been in politics a long time. five decades, really. a long time. and one of the most important battles of my life was the general election of 2010, when the british nationalist party, the fatis, challenged me on my own constituency. and that was a long campaign to re—establish trust among my electorate and bring them back to the labour party. when nick griffin,
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the labour party. when nick griffin, the then leader of the bnp, announced he was going to stand against me, i thought i would get buckets full of anti—semitic abuse. and they did get some. but what has really shocked me is that since 2015 i have received far, far more anti—semitic abuse, partly, or mainly because of social media, but the other thing is traditionally that sort of abuse came from the right. eye rake in two out of three of the stuff i've received comes from the hard left. that anecdote you tell about 2010 is interesting to me, partly because i recall that one of the labour mps who came to your support, who came to your constituency to join your battle, was onjeremy corbyn. you praised him for the degree to which he went out of his way to battle the far right on your behalf. and yet now you accuse jeremy right on your behalf. and yet now
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you accusejeremy corbyn himself of, andi you accusejeremy corbyn himself of, and i am quoting from a recent daily mail article, a right—wing newsletter that you chose to writing, that" under corbin we have been hijacked and anti—semitism has become the acceptable face of racism on the left". the very samejeremy corbyn who came to your aid —— jeremy corbyn. indeed. and i don't know way he has adopted this sort of “oi’ know way he has adopted this sort of — or tolerated or colluded this damage —— anti—semitism within the heart of the labour party. by trying to understand it, and i think it arises from a number of issues. for the hard left, for the extreme left in the uk, the issue of palestinian rights has always been a sort of totemic issue. it has been a really keyissue totemic issue. it has been a really key issue that sorta brings them together. and why shouldn't it be? eye was going to say, i have a lot of sympathy with the criticisms that
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people make of the netanyahu regime in israel and their treatment of palestinians in that region —— i. but what has happened or perhaps what was always there on the fringes but is now there in the mainstream is that people likejeremy and the people around him muddled being jewish, which i am, supporting the existence of a state forjews, in which they can self determine their future, i.e. the existence of israel, which i do, i'm not sure thatjeremy does that, and then being a paid—up member of the netanyahu being a paid—up member of the neta nyahu fan being a paid—up member of the netanyahu fan club. i'm not that. there you have been a little delicate in your language and you have talked about jeremy delicate in your language and you have talked aboutjeremy muddling things up. but let us be honest. you have, to his face, accused your own party leader, jeremy corbyn, of being an anti—semite and a racist.
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the most inflammatory, extraordinary accusations that you could possibly make against your own leader. indeed. and they do them with a very heavy heart. but a judge people by their actions, not their heavy heart. but a judge people by theiractions, not theirwords. heavy heart. but a judge people by their actions, not their words. and nothing jeremy has done, either since i've put that accusation to him last summer has led me to change my view. in fact... so almost a year on you are saying that werejeremy corbyn with us today in the studio you would look him in the i and say you would look him in the i and say you are still, despite your constant denials, you are still yourself and anti—semite and a racist. denials, you are still yourself and anti—semite and a racistlj denials, you are still yourself and anti-semite and a racist. i think if you look again at the actions and not the words and what has emerged, when he has called users not having a sense of irony, the people he has chosen to spend his time with, his
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support for a mural which absolutely was an anti—semitic merel... support for a mural which absolutely was an anti-semitic merel. .. you are quoting things which have been in the public domain a long time. hang on. some of which emerged after a maid that accusation. and then the other thing i would say is that if you think of some of these things that are being said aboutjews, if you were to put in that the word muslim or put the word black, if you would put the word gay or anything else, it would be utterly unacceptable. but somehow being anti—semitic has become the a cce pta ble anti—semitic has become the acceptable face of racism within the party. crosstalk. there is an important detail here. labour says it has 0, i'm quoting them, 0 tolerance of anti—semitism, it is engaged in what it is now calling a militant fight against anti—semitism, they point to the many allegations which are currently
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being addressed in their internal disciplinary machinery. they point to specifics like, for example, just a week or so ago the fact that a member of the national executive committee, pete wills man, was suspended because of a recording, which emerged claiming that israel was behind the accusations of anti—semitism inside the party, these are specific commitments, actions, disciplinary measures that are being taken. let me give you three recent examples which demonstrate to me that, again, their actions don't stand up to their words. so, for example, we have a leading member of geremy‘s inner circle, andrew murray, who there was a late memo last week that came off a late memo last week that came off a private e—mail that demonstrated that he intervened in one of the allegations of anti—semitism to ensure that the person was not suspended. jeremy corbyn himself gave me assurances that there was no
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political interference in the consideration of those issues. you are saying that that was a lie? jeremy corbyn lied about that. either he didn't know what his staff was doing all he himself was being economical with the truth. which do you think? i don't know. they really genuinely don't know. the second example is the situation where alastair campbell admitted, after the european elections, that he had not voted for the labour party because, because of our stance on europe, he was immediately expelled, whereas a member of the national executive committee, who on a tape was heard to be really, really abusive against the jewish was heard to be really, really abusive against thejewish community has only been suspended. so you wonder what that means about zero tolerance. 0n the third incident is that we end up with a candidate last week ina that we end up with a candidate last week in a really important
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by—election where stephen sackur, more than anybody, don't want the brexit party and nigel farage to succeed ——i. brexit party and nigel farage to succeed --i. you are talking about the peterborough by—election. the cat it was lisa forbes, representing labour. there was notjust one incidence with lisa forbes where she demonstrated anti—semitic views, there were three incidences. i for there were three incidences. i for the life of me i cannot understands. they either should have done the proper checks to ensure she wasn't anti—semitic or, indeed, they were colluding with her views. lisa forbes has apologised, on social media, for liking... cannotjust say to that, a lot of people... that is a lot of things. jeremy corbyn has apologised for supporting the neural. he has apologised for a lot of things. that is important, isn't it? of course it is important to apologise. i thinkjeremy quinn
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apologised to thejewish community, that would be a move in the right direction —— could apologise. if you have done something like that, if you put in their words of black, words muslim, i think the whole world would have come down on these people. i'd come back to this argument that somehow discrimination against the jewish community argument that somehow discrimination against thejewish community is tolerated. they now look at a lot of this social media, anti—semitic social media, and there is this sort of argument that people have, if you are on the hard left, that all capitalists are bad, they are all in finance, and somehow thejews are central to the financial capital stills of the world. thejewish community is a very strong political lobby in america. if you are on the ha rd left in lobby in america. if you are on the hard left in the uk you are anti—american and you somehow again
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model that anti— americanism with anti—semitism. so there are a lot of views and principles and attitudes that come together which lead to this being a sort of acceptable form of racism on the hard left. margaret hodge, you talk about the abusive received, you talk about your feelings towards tammy corbin and senior people in his office, what on earth are you doing still inside the labour party? —— jeremy corbyn. if you believe what you have said to me. i have portrays us all my life. i talked to about taking on the british national party —— i have fortt racists. and yet you still sit inside a party where you say the leader is an anti—semite and a racist. it doesn't make sense. on a bad day it doesn't. 0n racist. it doesn't make sense. on a bad day it doesn't. on a good day when i get up what i think is the labour party has been around for 120 yea rs, labour party has been around for 120 years, i have been a member of that party for 56 years. jeremy corbyn has not yet been leader for four
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yea rs. has not yet been leader for four years. ijoined the labour party as an immigrantand years. ijoined the labour party as an immigrant and a due because it was the party that fought racism, promoted equality, fostered international solidarity, and i'm not going to give up on it. other jewish labour mps. .. not going to give up on it. other jewish labour mps... i am a not going to give up on it. other jewish labour mps. .. i am a fighter. 0therjewish labour jewish labour mps. .. i am a fighter. other jewish labour mps jewish labour mps. .. i am a fighter. 0therjewish labour mps have decided this is beyond the pale for them, beyond the threshold of acceptability. i'm thinking of lucien laverdure, for example, she went off tojoin lucien laverdure, for example, she went off to join another party, change uk —— lussiana bergo. some would conclude you have stayed within the party because you achieve desire, because, it has to be said, isa desire, because, it has to be said, is a blairite mp is to use this issue, to consistently use it to beatjeremy corbyn over the head to undermine his leadership and change the labour party. and he person who believes that more than any other is len mccluskey, leader of the unite
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union who talks about the wayjeremy corbyn is being smeared and how anti—semitism as an issue is being contrived to hurt jeremy anti—semitism as an issue is being contrived to hurtjeremy corbyn. anti—semitism as an issue is being contrived to hurt jeremy corbynlj wa nt to contrived to hurt jeremy corbynlj want to say about luciano bergo. they completely understand why she took that decision. she also faced intolerable abuse. i believe that at this point in time it is much better to fight from the inside. will i feel that tomorrow? i don't know. is this about undermining jeremy corbyn? put it to you, jeremy corbyn, win this has started to emerge, 18 months ago, 2 years ago, could easily have stamped it out, strong, clear leadership, demonstrating zero tolerance of anti—semitism would have killed it as an issue. he chose not to. i'm going to fight for those central values. do you care about the labour party?
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of course i do. then why do you write in the anti— labour daily mail talking about how the due bashes have taken over your party and jeremy corbyn is the centre of that. but how can you say that you want labour to win but how can you say that you want labourto win and but how can you say that you want labour to win and url labour party activist when you do that? —— you area labour activist when you do that? —— you are a labour party at diverse. because i care about the labour party, ifight because i care about the labour party, i fight to eradicate because i care about the labour party, ifight to eradicate it. i a lwa ys party, ifight to eradicate it. i always put fighting racism at the core of my political endeavour. there was an extraordinary story yesterday in the guardian suggesting there was a leak in the united states that reach the washington post of a mike pompeo speech speaking to jewish leaders post of a mike pompeo speech speaking tojewish leaders where he was asked if the trump administration had worked with the united —— jewish community administration had worked with the united ——jewish community in administration had worked with the united —— jewish community in the united —— jewish community in the
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united states if life becomes difficult for them in the uk. in response he said that yes, the us administration would take action and pushback againstjeremy corbyn and do their level best. are you co mforta ble do their level best. are you comfortable that you are being quoted and your campaign is being used in the united states by people in the conservative pro— trump movement who want to see the united states do whatever it can to stop jeremy corbyn becoming prime minister. i am deeply depressed by that the answer lies in the labour party changing the way it approaches the whole issue of anti—semitism. it is injeremy‘s the whole issue of anti—semitism. it is in jeremy's hands the whole issue of anti—semitism. it is injeremy‘s hands to get rid of this issue. before we end i want to twist the conversation towards europe and labour other huge problem which is making a coherent policy on accept. now you are a remainer. you
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wa nted accept. now you are a remainer. you wanted a second referendum and you wa nted wanted a second referendum and you wanted the labour party to be clear in its support of remain. as of today, jeremy corbyn is still not prepared to go down that road. again, you are not winning that argument. but i am engaged in the argument. but i am engaged in the argument and that argument and i can and hope that i will win it. what is and hope that i will win it. what is a little depressing is that i am spending so much of my time in what i consider negative activity, so rather than fighting for europe and for the concept of europe either on the basis of the economy or on the basis of being part of a big family of globalisation or on the basis of democratic values that are central. here are a couple of democratic values. 62% of your own constituents who voted in the referendum voted to leave. almost two—thirds of them. here is another. the labour party
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ma nifesto here is another. the labour party manifesto on the 2017 election was plain, promising to accept the result of the referendum, promising that freedom of movement will and when we leave the eu you. labour was committed to a hard form of brexit. that was the manifesto that you as an mpfought that was the manifesto that you as an mp fought upon. where are your democratic values now?|j an mp fought upon. where are your democratic values now? i never pretended to my constituents that i am anything other than somebody who believes we should remain and reform. and the interesting thing is that what i say to them is nobody ever voted to be poorer. and as we got to understand more and more of the implications of what brexit would mean, i become more and more convinced of the strength of that argument. wejust convinced of the strength of that argument. we just had the convinced of the strength of that argument. wejust had the european elections. and i spend a lot of my time making sure that i listen to
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and remain in touch with my local constituents. and i was worried. i thought two out of three wanted to leave and i said remain. i wondered ifi leave and i said remain. i wondered if i was out of touch. in the run—up to the election i did a lot of door stops and i came across a few things. many people said they were confused and did not understand it, could i tell them what to do was to mark i came could i tell them what to do was to mark i came across could i tell them what to do was to mark i came across brexiteers and remain as. and when i said to them, i began the conversation by saying that i was talking about brexit and when i asked them how they would vote, many of them were still loyal to labour and those who were not loyal to labour or more likely to be influenced by their attitude to jeremy corbyn then there were two by their attitude to europe. and when you look at the results of the european election, in the only constituency in london that voted to accept, we had a labour majority. i think people will vote on an issue but their politics starts from local
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and as long as you can respond and listen and act on the issues that matter to them they will actually totally accept and, in fact, look up totally accept and, in fact, look up to you taking a different view on some of the national and international issues. do you listen to fellow mps such as gareth snell who represent constituencies where there was a strong labour exit vote and who now say, firstly that people ‘s opinions of not really changed and secondly, if you insist on a second referendum, be very careful what you wish for because it is a high—stakes gamble. what you wish for because it is a high—sta kes gamble. lisa what you wish for because it is a high—stakes gamble. lisa says that she strongly suspects if there is a second referendum, people in my area would vote in large numbers for no deal. that is the likely outcome. of course i listen to them. and their constituencies are not that dissimilar to constituencies are not that dissimilarto mind. all
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constituencies are not that dissimilar to mind. all i can do is speakfrom dissimilar to mind. all i can do is speak from the experience of my own constituency. i am not responsible for we can all stoke, nor am i the speaker. my point is that the remain as in the labour party are playing an extremely dangerous game because if you get your referendum and it goes to a no deal brexit, you have become the inadvertent midwives of a no deal. and you say that would be absolutely catastrophic for the country. let me say this. i don't accept that just because constituents voted to leave in a referendum that they necessarily have the same view now. that is my experience from my own constituents. the other thing is that all the options are horrible. i don't think any of the options are moving forward from this hugely complex situation a good. i would much rather we were not in that position, but we are. for me, the best of the bad options is a second referendum
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because things have changed, people understand better. it is important not only for this generation for future generations and it will be a difficult referendum and there will be people who feel that we did not listen to the first referendum. but if it changes, we will end up, we will have a few years of a difficult period but i think the vote will go for remain and in that instance the long—term future stability and well—being of written and the british economy will be secured. and it is because of that longer term view that i take the view that i am prepared to go through that shorter term difficulty. a final thought. we have talked a great deal about anti—semitism and brexit and the degree to which you are out of step with jeremy corbyn. degree to which you are out of step withjeremy corbyn. can you, hand on heart, say that you want to see jeremy corbyn as prime minister of your country? i want to see a labour
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government because i know... please a nswer government because i know... please answer the question. government because i know... please answer the questionlj government because i know... please answer the question. i want to see. that is how i will answer it. i want to see a labour government. i represent a working—class constituency. is your party leader, jeremy corbyn, fit for that top office? i am working hard within the party to ensure that the policies that we pursue, whether it is around anti—semitism, racism, whether it is around europe or, indeed, whether it is around the domestic social policies where i also have my arguments with the current leadership, that they will benefit my constituents. and i will carry on fighting. but you cannot tell me that you think you would party leader is fit for office? the party is greater than its leader and in the current climate you can have a huge amount of influence on the direction of travel. we saw that on triton. at the end of the day we now have a party policy. it does not support what our leader says. and
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hopefully we will get that same success around anti—semitism and for europe. dame margaret hodge, thank you for being on hardtalk. this tuesday is going to bring further heavy rain and there could be a lot a lot of it, particularly across northern parts of england, the midlands, and wales. on monday, the heaviest
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of the rainfall was actually across eastern parts of the country in the south—east. if we look at europe, the big picture, we can see over the last two or three days, most of the clouds seem to be stuck across... from northern spain, france, germany, the uk. we have seen big thunderstorms on the near continent, heavy rain here, of course. eastern parts of europe a different story, a few summertime showers and thunderstorms but on the whole a lot of sunshine and very hot, this and the reason for this is that this vortex has formed across western europe. it has been dragging cold air all the way from the north across the uk, france and into spain, whereas this side of europe, warm air has been coming from the south, affecting central and eastern areas, so warsaw, for example, has been in excess of 30 degrees, when it was only 12 degrees in london. on tuesday, the early hours, rain across most of northern england, the midlands, wales, the south—west, just about starting to dry out in the extreme south—east, but no real rainfall across scotland and northern ireland
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except for a few showers. in fact, first thing in the morning there will probably be some sunshine in belfast, glasgow and edinburgh. the weather front is stuck. in fact, the whole weather pattern across europe is stuck, it is not moving or moving very slowly. through tuesday, this band of weather, band of heavy rain, will very slowly drift, at a glacial pace it will move its way towards the north. it will continue to rain across yorkshire all through the day, the north—west of england, wales, the south—west, it sort of curls back into the centre of the low. the south—east will see sunshine and heavy showers. in the north of the country there will be some sunshine around. at times it will be cloudy, but dry at least. on wednesday, the weather system is still with us, a sense of things spiralling very slowly around, and again, more heavy showers being pushed into the uk, so again, it continues to remain very wet across many parts of the country into wednesday. wednesday and thursday, the low pressure is still with us, so this pattern is not
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in a hurry to change. it will be on the cool side, in fact, as far as the rest of the week is concerned very little change really, at times will be quite windy as well.
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this is the briefing, i'm sally bundock. our top story: the us tells mexico it will face trade tariffs if their plan to reduce border crossings falls short. a helicopter has crashed into a new york skyscraper. one person has been killed. sudan's military repression deepens, prompting washington to send in its top diplomat for africa. game on. we visit the world's largest gaming expo, and get the lowdown on why the industry is moving

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