hello, it's thursday, it's ten o'clock, i'm victoria derbyshire. welcome to a lib dem special. there's more than one battle to lead a political party going on right now. the liberal democrats are looking for a new leader. jo swinson and ed davey are both here to make their case. our audience are lib dem members, lib dem voters and people who have voted for other parties in the past, but who could be persuaded to vote lib dem in the future. what do they want to hear from the candidates? i voted remain and i vote lib dem, but i think

we need to get on with brexit, and i want the candidates to tell me how they are going to deliver the best brexit deal. i'm andrew and i voted conservative since 1970 i'm andrew and i voted conservative since1970 and now i am completely politically homeless.” since1970 and now i am completely politically homeless. i am a party activist and a member of the young liberals and i think the party is a bit obsessed with brexit and we should be focusing on other issues that affect young people, things like housing and jobs. wherever you are in the country, let us know what you think this morning. wherever you are in the country, let us know what you think — victoria@bbc.co.uk. use the hashtag victorialive. hello, welcome to the programme. the race to be the leader of the conservative party is dominating the headlines but one of these two will become leader of a party. a party

that got more than twice as many votes as the tories and the european elections last month. the liberal democrat energy but there is a debate about how they should use their influence. if they went into coalition with the conservatives in 2010 and were punished for that and —— in the election of 2015. their tally of mps dropped from 57 down to eight. this is the first time the two candidates, jo swinson and ed davey have debated on tv together with an audience. there are just over 100,000 lib dem members who will choose between them and ballot papers go out next week. let's introduce them to you both. jo swinson is 39, born in glasgow, she joined the lib dems aged 17 and elected as an mp aged 25. there she is, all those years ago, making her the youngest mp in the commons at the youngest mp in the commons at the time. that was when the lib dems we re the time. that was when the lib dems were in coalition with the conservatives and she took on the

roles of business minister and the quality minister and she has run a campaign against the excessive packaging of easter eggs. last year she became the first mp to take her baby into a commons debate and carried her 11—month—old son into the chamber. she lost her seat in the chamber. she lost her seat in the near wipe—out of the lib dems in the near wipe—out of the lib dems in the 2015 general election and winning it back in 2017 and then was elected unopposed as deputy leader of the lib dems shortly after. in her spare time it seems she shares borisjohnson for her spare time it seems she shares boris johnson for making her spare time it seems she shares borisjohnson for making model buses. —— borisjohnson's patches. ed davey is 53, from nottingham, a former management consultant and he scraped in as mp of kingston and surbiton in surrey in 1997 byjust 56 boats. during the coalition he was energy and climate change secretary and a close confidant of nick clegg. jo swinson, lost —— like

jo swinson he lost his seat in 2017 before regaining it in 2017. his hobbies include walking and supporting notts county. he went to the same school as conservative mp ken clarke and ed balls, who was in the year above. welcome to them, and the year above. welcome to them, and the audience and about a third of the audience and about a third of the audience and about a third of the audience are card—carrying lib dems and will get to vote for one of the two candidates. the rest in the studio have either voted for the lib dems in recent elections or might consider voting for them in the future and some of the people here are members of other parties. first of all we ask both candidates to tell us in around a minute why they are the right person for the job and to tell you something about them that we don't already know. we tossed a coin and first isjo swinson. good morning. good morning. well, normally i run marathons but 110w well, normally i run marathons but now i am running to be the leader of the liberal democrats because i

think our country is crying out for a liberal movement to stand up and be an alternative to the narrow nationalism of boris johnson be an alternative to the narrow nationalism of borisjohnson and nigel farage. our country deserves better than boris's brexit britain and we can paint a better vision for the future, one of hope where we transform the economy so it works for people and our planet, where eve ryo ne for people and our planet, where everyone can live with dignity and have the opportunity to thrive and where we work with other countries to tackle the big issues we face from poverty to terrorism to the climate emergency. the fracturing of oui’ climate emergency. the fracturing of our 2—party system gives us a huge opportunity to change our broken politics. to do that, we need to rally a liberal movement and reach out to voters and that is what i am determined to do as leader of the liberal democrats. we can do this together, so jointly. thank you, jo

swinson. ed davey. british politics isa swinson. ed davey. british politics is a mess divided by brexit, issues like social care, rising crime and keep the climate emergency are not being tackled, so as a leader i would want to end brexit quickly. given mps are making a mess, the quickest way is to take it back to the people and i hope we then vote to stay and then we will have a lot more money to fix the problems that led to brexit. i want to tackle inequality and help communities left behind and invest heavily in the nhs and schools. i would also make the climate emergency priority and as the climate change cabinet minister i nearly quadrupled our renewable power and a cleaner economy. i hope that division will go and i can heal the divided country. mi6 tried to recruit me to be a spy

overseas but i had just been appointed as economic adviser to paddy ashdown so i never became 0 davey. you plumptre be economic adviser rather than being a foreign spy adviser rather than being a foreign spy for britain. yes, well in politics you can serve our country and bigger ways. clearly, politics you can serve our country and biggerways. clearly, being a spy' and biggerways. clearly, being a spy, you and biggerways. clearly, being a spy, you can keep the country safe. far less exciting though. you know, working for paddy was pretty exciting. you never knew what he would do next. fair enough. right, let's get straight to it. the country could be out of the eu, without a deal, within four months. you want a second referendum, hoping it will reverse brexit but you just don't have time to lobby and persuade colleagues and others to get enough mps on board for a second referendum, so what are you going to do? i think we do have time to do that. you really don't have time to do that. i think we do. we had 280

votes in favour of a peoples boat when last discussed in parliament, just 12 votes away from passing, so there are more mps we need to rally to that cause. it's notjust rallying them, it's getting it organised and sorted. you cannot do that by october the 31st. we can. if parliament agrees to have a peoples boat, the european union have been very clear that they will offer an extension, so what would need to happen by the 31st of october is parliament voting in favour of a peoples boat and that requires conservative mps who have not backed that to back it —— people's vote. the prospect of a no deal exit is focusing minds in the comp conservative party including people who are currently ministers who have argued in private for a people's vote. but it does not stop are no deal at some point down the line, does it? if we have a people's vote and people vote to remain then it

absolutely does. clearly, you need the extension to the deadline but the extension to the deadline but the eu has been clear about that. what is your plan to stop no deal? there are two big plans being talked about in westminster, across the parties, the first that we grab the order paper from the government as we have done before and pass a new law to require a vote by mps before we leave. that would be the best legal protection to stop a no—deal brexit. there is another option which is a little bit more, shall we say, more the nuclear option and thatis say, more the nuclear option and that is that we have a vote of no—confidence in the government and we have already heard from tory mps oi'i we have already heard from tory mps on panorama that there are a number of tory mps who would vote for a vote of no confidence. what would then happen quest market could be a general election and we wouldn't be afraid of that but i would like to have a government of national unity to bring the parties together, probably headed up by a backbench labourmp and that

probably headed up by a backbench labour mp and that would just be a temporary government for one purpose and one purpose alone, to pass the legislation for a peoples boat and thenl legislation for a peoples boat and then i believe we can win that vote and get out of this mess. some people think that sounds absolutely crazy. that is effectively the queen cancelling brexit, deciding we need an emergency national government where you would in—store yvette cooper or hilary benn to be prime minister. it's not the queen who would choose it it would be mps voting in parliament and we would say that the palace could send for this mp because this particular mp, whoever it was, was signalling that they had support across the parties to form a government of national unity. and i know people think it is a bit far—fetched and i get that but we have to put these ideas forward, radical ideas because we have to stop this mess. what do hilary benn and yvette cooper make of the argument? i haven't spoken to them

about it. what? i want to air it and get it out there early on because we won't see the colour of boris johnson orjeremy hunt's plan until september so people need to be discussing the alternatives. ok, let's bring in the audience. my name is luke and i'm an ex liberal democrat member and i left the party in 2018 and february and joined the renew party. you left the lib dems? in february 2018 and ijoined the renew party afterwards and my question to you both would be, in the light of a no—deal brexit and the light of a no—deal brexit and the possibility of a general election, what would you both be willing to do as leaders of the liberal democrat party to work on a remain and alliance and empowering the smaller parties like change uk and renew, into working in a remain alliance coalition government?” think we need to be prepared to do

whatever it takes to stop brexit because the threat to our country is so because the threat to our country is so huge. i very much think the liberal democrats have proven to be the most consistent rallying point for remain. but not in the european elections when you could not get your act together. we had our best ever european election result, so you can't wipe the smile off are faced with that. i'm not talking about that, i'm talking about a remain alliance. you failed at that. this is why i think looking at a general election we need to be smarter about how we do it and when it came to the peterborough by—election and i was involved in talking with caroline lucas with the green party and although we didn't have a joint candidate in the by—election because the last minute the candidate pulled out, but all of the candidate pulled out, but all of the practicalities were in place including discussions at staff level and that said to me about how we could build the tower —— trust. in reality a lot of the decisions would

bea reality a lot of the decisions would be a different thing because what works in one part of the country works in one part of the country works in one part of the country works in a different part, and it would be right that members should be able to make it clear how it should be done but we need to be absolutely open to make this work and there is quite a lot of geeky spreadsheets stuff that needs to go into this which is lib dems, we are good at doing. i agree, we've got to get the remain vote to win in the general election and there are two ways of doing it and the first is using a system that worked really well when we try to get rid of the conservative government that had beenin conservative government that had been in power for 18 years and it was tactical voting and it worked well in 1997 and 2001 and i won my seat in 1997 thanks to tactical voting and there were a lot of websites where independent people said this is the party, the candidate most likely to be the conservatives. i can see a similar model where an independent group say this is the candidate who is most

likely to win and therefore we can get a likely to win and therefore we can geta remain likely to win and therefore we can get a remain mp, so that tactical voting model is something we dust down and make it work. could we go further? i would down and make it work. could we go further? iwould be down and make it work. could we go further? i would be up for that. if we we re further? i would be up for that. if we were faced with what i really fear, which would be a leave alliance, imagine the horror of borisjohnson and alliance, imagine the horror of boris johnson and nigel alliance, imagine the horror of borisjohnson and nigel farage working in cahoots and we have to go to work faced with that sort of threat and we might need to stand down in one or two seats. taking local parties with us. let's rememberthe local parties with us. let's remember the liberal democrats have been the least tribal of the british parties. last general election we stood down in favour of caroline lucas, and we have done it in the past. lesley e-mails to say, do they intend to change their name to the liberal democrats? we voted to leave the eu but you want to block the democratic will of the people. introduce yourself, because you have

a point on this. i am a lib dem but also a lever. is that a lonely life? it isa also a lever. is that a lonely life? it is a sad life. but if we had another referendum as you propose and we ended up with something like and we ended up with something like a norway style deal at the end of it, with the liberal democrats deliver that because if we ended up in government after and people voted to leave, what would we do then?” think a people's vote needs to have a specific brexit on the ballot paper, the problem is brexit was meaning whatever people want it to meaning whatever people want it to mean in 2016 and you can see that the brexiteers in parliament, three yea rs the brexiteers in parliament, three years on, they cannot agree on what it should look like. are you saying on the ballot paper it would be a remain, leave with a deal, leave without a deal? i think it is best

to have remain or a specific option, may‘s deal, or the suggestion of a norway style deal and that might be optimistic. but would you accept the result, if it was a leave again? would you accept the result of the second referendum when you don't accept the result of the first? the first referendum gave the government the mandate to go off on negotiate but we did not have a detail of what it would look like. so, yes, the a nswer it would look like. so, yes, the answer is, if the people vote for a specific brexit option with all of that information, absolutely. it's like scotland in 2014 where the snp published a 650 page white paper to say this is what an independent scotla nd say this is what an independent scotland would look like and people we re scotland would look like and people were able to then vote on that specific proposal. and let's say it was remain. would you accept people who did not like the result of a second referendum agitating for a third referendum? in politics you

are always going to argue for what you believe in. we've stuck to our principles. so you would facilitate a third referendum? no, i don't think so. we need to put the issue to bed. i am a solicitor and a management consultant focusing on brexit. my issue is, we have had this decision already. the people have voted and i voted remain, but now i respect the outcome of that. . why can't you and my other question is, i have lost huge faith in our government and political system and it is proposed that you represent the people, but you just express their that i feel, and it's your campaign, i'm not that of the people, so who are you representing?

jo swinson has said that if a second referendum did happen and the vote was to remain, she would not allow a third, would you? no. because you got the answer you wanted? even if it was the answer i didn't want. either way, because i it was the answer i didn't want. eitherway, because i think it was the answer i didn't want. either way, because i think a second referendum with the huge extra information we know now that we did not have in 2016, that should be respected. but i wouldn't change my view. because i've lost an election doesn't mean i don't believe in liberal democracy and my values and if we lost the referendum i still think britain would be better off in the eu and it would be reasonable to argue for it but i think we would not really go forward for a third referendum. that would be to destabilising. can i make this point, because it does annoy me when people say we are undemocratic to wa nt people say we are undemocratic to want a vote. a vote is democratic. it would be undemocratic if we said we would cancel brexit without the people making the decision. the point they are making is that it is

undemocratic not to deliver on the outcome of the vote. let's look at the polls. it's very clear there has beena the polls. it's very clear there has been a switch to remain. sure, but i make the same point. the reason they say it is undemocratic is because you have not delivered on the first one. we are talking about something which isn't irrevocable decision for oui’ which isn't irrevocable decision for our country. —— an irrevocable decision. going down the path and then in three or four years' time we can say we got it wrong and we can change this. this is in a revoke couple decision and step to be taken, and if we don't have confidence that that is what the people want us to do, and i don't have confidence in that, because it is being proposed it will be no deal there are plenty of people, not least in parliament who said that they voted to leave but they wouldn't have done so if they were voting for no deal and similarly you have plenty of brexiteers who have looked at the theresa may's deal and say they would rather stay in the

eu, so if we don't have confidence that public art behind any specific type of brexit, how can we take the revoke couple step —— irrevocable step. i will introduce rachel who has come from scotland. i am sure it's our fault that she went to a different bbc building, but we are happy to see you here today. hello, yes. i am liz, and i am a labour voter that cannot vote forjeremy corbyn so i'm looking for a new home. regardless of what happens in the future of brexit, i would be interested in your plans for healing the enormous rifts that there are within the country. what can be done, whichever way it goes? can i ask you before the candidates be, do you think a referendum —— a second referendum is part of a healing process orders that continue the divisions? difficult to say. i personally would appreciate a second referendum because don't think i we had the facts when we voted on the

first one. would you appreciate a second referendum and it would start to heal division? i think the issue is we would need a third. so it wouldn't. on the workings of article 50, if you have a referendum when the uk has finished with its current negotiations, you can then promise a norway style deal but that would have to happen referendum on the final. healing the divisions? ed davey? it's interesting fearing jeremy corbyn, and brexit aside, labour has gone to the far left and i think the conservative party is adopting some quite right wing positions as well. so therefore the liberal democrats, i believe, have to bea liberal democrats, i believe, have to be a political home to those pro—eu and social democrats or indeed the pro—eu liberal labour, because there are many liberals in the labour party and equally pro—liberal tories and if we can be

that political home, we can have a programme whether it's investing in public services, climate emergencies,, public services, climate emergencies, , these problems public services, climate emergencies,, these problems are not being dealt with and we can give a strong lead and actually be a party of government. i think there are lots of divides in our society at the moment but there are two big divides that underpin the brexit vote on one of those is economic in one of them is cultural. on the economic issue, wejust one of them is cultural. on the economic issue, we just need to be honest and say the economy is broken and the way in which it works or more accurately does not work, those who work hard and they live in poverty and can't get out of it, so we need transformation and part of thatis we need transformation and part of that is about investment in public services on the way the economy works and that is one of the way to start healing and on the culture issues, what worries me about that brexit vote is not what it said

about the eu and the institutions, but in terms of what kind of country we are and our liberal values. those are under threat. in the 1980s and 90s are under threat. in the 1980s and 905 it are under threat. in the 1980s and 90s it felt like there was a lot of inequality but things were generally going in the right direction and now none of that is happening. we see spikes in hate crimes and a country becoming a less tolerant place towards difference, and as liberals, we actually need to be very robust in making the case for the liberal values of society, otherwise we will end up divided. can ijust check you are both all right standing, because i have got a couple of high stools the side. we would be a good duet. eltonjohn the side. we would be a good duet. elton john and kiki the side. we would be a good duet. eltonjohn and kiki dee. the side. we would be a good duet. elton john and kiki dee. don't go breaking my heart. rachel, you might have missed the confirmation —— conversation about a second referendum and both are saying that

they are campaigning for a second eu referendum and i know you have a question about a second independence referendum, don't you? yes. what i wanted to ask was, if a second brexit referendum was going ahead, sorry, i'm trying to get my thoughts together. no worries. would they allow a second scottish independence referendum? yes. i don't think we should have that. are you a hypocrite then? how do you square it? there is a big difference. in 2014, in scotland, we had a debate which was based on a very detailed white paper that to the snp‘s credit they put forward... let's not go over history. if britain leaves the

eu, circumstances will have to change. there was not a mandate in scotla nd change. there was not a mandate in scotland to have a second independence referendum and the snp have been putting forward their case and they have been losing seats, so they lost 21 mps and this was a key election issue, and what people in scotland, most people in scotland won scotland in the uk and the uk and the eu and its only the liberal democrats making that case and standing upfor democrats making that case and standing up for both those propositions. i agree with jo swinson because it clear in the independence referendum there was a detailed plan for those people wanted independence which is different to the brexit issue where there was no plan whatsoever. but if brexit is delivered, whenever that may be, and things will change, would you agree with that? is that what you want the opportunity of a second scotland independence referendum? yes. i feel now that public opinion in scotland is that

there is so much going on with brexit that you have a second independence referendum would be too much at the minute. however, if the uk does leave the eu then things will have changed for scotland and so will have changed for scotland and so if that second independence referendum happened there would no guaranteed scotland could go back in the eu. and if scotland has an independence referendum there is no way scotland can be part of an eu as it stands but it's more likely that it stands but it's more likely that it the uk leaves and the uk in scotland tries to join the eu. we've seen scotland tries to join the eu. we've seen how difficult and costly it is for britain to even begin to prepare the eu which is something we've been in participation with for 40 years will top imagine how more complicated it would be for scotland to leave the uk when it has been a union for more than 300 years and i really worry about the impact it

will have on ordinary people's lives in scotland. brexit is going to be pretty disruptive. add onto that a scottish independence situation, people might say, hold on a minute, you are ruining our lives and country. our people convinced by those answers? a couple of people nodding, a couple of people disagreeing. i would like to talk in the business angle, i am disagreeing. i would like to talk in the business angle, lam nick thompson, the managing director of a software com pa ny thompson, the managing director of a software company where we have about a hundred people in central london. when brexit happened three years ago i voted to remain and i am conservative leaning, maybe not so ecstatic about the potential leadership there, but i voted to remain and when we left i was a bit disappointed but i am a business person and we did have to make some big changes to our business. and it wasn't great to start with but things change and we adjusted and here we are three years on and we are prepared, so you guys are talking about cancelling brexit and

holding another referendum that is delaying things and we just need to move soon because it is holding business up. i will swing around the audience if i may. i used business up. i will swing around the audience ifi may. i used to be a memberof the labour audience ifi may. i used to be a member of the labour party and i'm currently a member of the green party and i voted liberal democrat in 2010 and was horrified by the coalition and by your participation and austerity. might be interested to know if the liberal democrats might be prepared to take responsibility for the brexit vote being delivered. i think austerity was a huge element behind the delivery of the brexit vote and it was expressing frustration about the fa ct was expressing frustration about the fact that the economy had been crushed by a certain group of people and instead of them being made to pay for it, the poorest and the most needy in our society were forced to pay for it again and again. let's get a yes or no for that. do you accept responsibility for the eu

referendum for it being held? clearly as a member of the government between 2010 and 2015i have to take responsibility for the measures it implemented. do you regret the austerity measures you voted for? there were one or two i found difficult, that is true. do you regret them? i do regret doing things i didn't really believe in. what did you do that you did not believe in? i wasn't happy with the second bedroom tax. but you voted for it? when you are in a coalition and you are winning things that you do believe in, like taking the low paid out of tax, quadrupling renewable power and having a focus on mental health, same—sex marriage. 70% of the liberal democrat manifesto we managed to get in place but we were in a coalition. if you are ina but we were in a coalition. if you are in a compromise situation, by the nature of the word you don't get everything you want. therefore you have to give in on a few things. and there were one or two... the bedroom tax is what you gave in on. let's

remember what we tax is what you gave in on. let's rememberwhat we did tax is what you gave in on. let's remember what we did not give on. why would you give in? on welfare benefits george osborne wanted to slash benefits far greater and deeperand we slash benefits far greater and deeper and we stopped him, so you can point to the ones we didn't stop and that would be fair and justified, but look at the ones we absolutely stopped and i'm proud that we were there to stop the right—wing tories cutting welfare deeper. and to be clear, do you think austerity led to the eu referendum in part? i think you have to go back to the financial crash when we lost 7% of national income, we became much poorer overnight, i think that was the ultimate cause. guess who was warning that would happen? vince cable. i warning that would happen? vince cable. lam proud it was warning that would happen? vince cable. i am proud it was the leader of our party saying, do not do what you are doing, labour failed to listen, that is why we ended up in a mess. do you take responsibility for the referendum vote because of

austerity measures you voted for?” do not think it was as a result of the liberal democrats and in fact the liberal democrats and in fact the referendum was only able to happen once the conservatives were governing on their own and they said they had not expected they would have to deliver on having a referendum on the first place, it was because they thought they would be in was because they thought they would beina was because they thought they would be in a coalition again that they would not have to be held to that. but i do recognise that what we did do was a lot of great stuff, more money for poorer pupils, cutting income tax for people on low pay, in coalition, we did not get everything right. what do you regret, jo swinson? absolutely the bedroom tax. ido swinson? absolutely the bedroom tax. i do think we should not have let that through. i do think we should not have gone back on what we said on tuition fees. more low—income families going to university, but we went back on something on that was wrong. we have to be honest to move on. you said you were horrified when

the lib dems went into coalition. does the tuition fees, breaking up the promise, still an issue for you now? i think again part of the delivery of the eu result was because of an erosion of trust in our elected representatives, i believe they are all the same, in it for themselves, say anything they need to get elected, and back out. nick clegg standing there having been elected, in the position he was m, been elected, in the position he was in, on the basis of a very liberal agenda, backing up on so much including and specifically the direct promise he had made not to raise tuition fees, i think it contributed again towards the erosion of trust in elected representatives which brought us nigel farage. on the subject of coalition, who wants to askjo swinson and ed davey about coalition partners in the future if there was a hung parliament? if you don't, i

definitely do. introduce yourself. i am ricardo, lib dem member. what would be the price for coalition or confidence and supply agreement to work with labour or the conservatives again? people's vote, electoral reform? conservatives again? people's vote, electoral reform ? what conservatives again? people's vote, electoral reform? what would be the price worth paying? the first thing i would say is there is no possibility of us doing a deal with a brexiteer. in jeremy possibility of us doing a deal with a brexiteer. injeremy corbyn, you have a brexiteer. in borisjohnson, jeremy hunt, you have brexiteers. absolutely no way. if we were looking in future, yes, we want to stop brexit, that is absolutely key priority for us. the strategic importance of electoral full, again, it sounds like a geeky lib dem thing to say, part of the problem we are in at the moment, the voting system

is so broken, two massive political parties, neitherfunction is so broken, two massive political parties, neither function as political parties any more, broad churches, we need electoralfor. would you want a referendum on the alternative vote again? —— electoral ref. i think the alternative vote is not the best way of delivering electrical reform. we should put it in the manifesto. that would be your condition, you would only considerfi coalition of someone likejeremy hunt was the conservative prime minister? he is a brexiteer too. he is delivering brexit. that is what he is saying he will do.” is delivering brexit. that is what he is saying he will do. i strongly agree withjo on he is saying he will do. i strongly agree with jo on this, he is saying he will do. i strongly agree withjo on this, it he is saying he will do. i strongly agree with jo on this, it would he is saying he will do. i strongly agree withjo on this, it would be impossible for the liberal democrats to support a brexiteer tori or labour, but remember if we have lots of liberal democrat mps, i hope we are the largest party, party of government, but say we are not, if

we have a lot of mps, we can hold the balance of power and we can stop some of the awful right wing brexiteers, if it is a tory government, and stop some far left policies ofjeremy corbyn. remember, we have seen in this parliament many fights only being won or lost by one mp. imagine we have a lot of mps in a future parliament from the lib dems, even if balanced parliament again, we can exercise huge influence. people think, why don't you want to go into government? if there was a decent partner to do it, we would do it. give us a name, a party. if there is a leader of another political party that has a more moderate position, notjust on things like brexit but on the economy, social issues, environmental issues, of course we would work with them. the reason why jo andl would work with them. the reason why jo and i support electoral ref or, it leads a more consensual politics

and if you believe in that you should be prepared to work with people who are less extreme —— reform. you have both said you would not go into coalition with a brexiteer. if there was a second referendum and the vote was to leave, he would deliver brexit. we will not start thinking leaving the eu isa will not start thinking leaving the eu is a good idea. but we have to be straightforward arguing for a people's vote to put the matter to rest. would you like to see the lib dems go into coalition if there is a hung parliament? who with? my name is leena, i am a prospective candidate and i will be standing in the heart of mid—wales. to respond to your point, no, i agree, the heart of mid—wales. to respond to your point, no, iagree, i the heart of mid—wales. to respond to your point, no, i agree, i do not think in the current form we can support either brexiteer labour or tories, damned if we do, damned if we don't. my stance on the idea is

we don't. my stance on the idea is we have worked with parties before in parliament, on the example of brexit, we have had co—signatories on many motions that have gone through and we are facing a by—election in wales, as you are both very aware. that is becoming more crucial than ever to be able to work across party to talk to other parties and put slight differences aside in the case of the greater good. there are people in my constituency falling sick because of failures in the constituency and it is time we stand up and say, enough is time we stand up and say, enough is enough. i am from wales, we have a labour government, it does not work, the tory government is not working, we need to work with other people to do this. sweep around the audience more, people want to speak. introduce yourself. i think your policies could be such that you do not need to go into coalition and on your own you would be a lot stronger. i think things are very weak within, as you say, the major

parties. i think you stand a good chance. why go into that with anyone else? i completely agree. ithink it is historic moment in british politics, both the traditional parties split down the middle, they have both gone to the extremes. it gives a huge opportunity for reformist, progressive parties to come forward and win. if i was leader, i would want to say, when asked the coalition question by victoria derbyshire, we are for liberal democrat values and policies... if there was a second referendum, if you manage to achieve that and the vote was leave again, would you then consider the coalition? i am very open to working with other people where we share values. in a coalition, confidence and supply? quite possibly. but not

with jeremy corbyn and supply? quite possibly. but not withjeremy corbyn and borisjohnson because they are so the opposite of what we believe in. i am working with people. in fact, just yesterday, great meeting in parliament of mps from lots of different parties under the more united banner where we are working together on a range of issues, this is how you get stuff done in politics. you get more done if you are in government and can influence it. i do not rule it out forever that when you look at both boris johnson and jeremy corbyn, you are looking at people who are heading off on the left in the right to the extremes off on the left in the right to the extre m es of off on the left in the right to the extremes of the political ideologies and that is not where our country needs to be and that is why we need a liberal movement with the liberal democrats at the heart of it to take us democrats at the heart of it to take us into government on our own. on our own? why not. who said no? hold the microphone. you need to work

together with the greens, change, different parties, because at the moment you will have the tories and the brexit party working together to deliver brexit. remain is split. i ama deliver brexit. remain is split. i am a liberal democrat councillor in we st am a liberal democrat councillor in west oxfordshire. i completely disagree on this is where we have failed in the eu elections. great success failed in the eu elections. great success but if we turn around to chains uk, get off, this is our grass, foot strongly, we would have had more mps and chuck avenue, just coming to our party, great, great mp, but we need to be more open —— chuck around luna. my question is, surely we should be heading for government, not working with other parties per se —— chukka umunna. tribal politics got us into this mess in the first place, i do not agree. we should not say, we are lib dems, we will dominate. we need to

work together. we should be going full power for ourselves, of course we should, but there will be issues where we want to work with others. i'm committed to tackling the climate emergency, one of the most significant issues facing this country on the planet. if that means working with the green party or however, we will do that. this party stood down for caroline lucas at the la st stood down for caroline lucas at the last general election. we are capable of reaching out. it is not unreasonable for us to want to win the next election. but maybe not realistic. which of you would be more likely to attract any wavering tory or labour mps? jo swinson you said yesterday you had talks with conservative mps in the past fortnight about championship if borisjohnson becomes fortnight about championship if boris johnson becomes prime minister. i would boris johnson becomes prime minister. iwould not boris johnson becomes prime minister. i would not expect you to tell us who but tell us how many.” will not tell you how many. the reason is? it is not helpful when you have those conversations that it prompts speculation. is it three,

five, ten? i am sorry, victoria, i am not getting into numbers. it is difficult for people thinking about leaving a political party and the conversations they have, they need to have the confidence that will be a private conversation up until the point at which they decide to make the decision. interesting you are having conversations with them. ed davey, are you having those kinds of conversations? yes, of course, they have been happening for quite some time in tea room, the corridors of westminster. the problem we have had up westminster. the problem we have had up until relatively recently is when we we re up until relatively recently is when we were flatlining in the polls, we we re we were flatlining in the polls, we were not an attractive proposition for people wanting to leave the tories or labour party. now we are doing well, early 205 on fantastic results in the locals and europeans, we are increasingly attractive to people who believe in our values but they want to make sure they retain

their seats. very important point. the best way of attracting more people is for us to be more successful. if we get to 30% in the polls, there will be a huge tsunami of people from other parties wanting to work with us and join us. apart from the obvious, i'm struggling to see any differences, really, between the both of you. is that a bad thing? in the conservative party, fairly acrimonious leadership election, quite big ideological divides between two people who do not appear to like each other. we like each other, not a bad thing.” am not suggesting it is a bad thing, in terms of policies, ideas, vision, really similar. the liberal democrats are a united party, we are confident, optimistic about the future, we know where we are going and our policy is set by members. what is the big policy difference? climate change and other things.” don't think there is a big policy

difference. our policy through the lib dems is set by conference and the leader leads but it is the members who decide. what is your personal priority, jo swinson?” think we need to reshape the economy, tackle the climate emergency, harness the technological revolution. heal the divided country. tackle inequality and make sure communities and regions left behind get the investment they deserve, otherwise the country will not come together, we must do that. i want to tackle the climate emergency, link to that, because i think you can do it anyway creating jobs. we created huge numbers of jobs. we created huge numbers of jobs in communities like kingston upon hull, grimsby, through the green power revolution and i would wa nt green power revolution and i would want after bringing the country together in tackling the climate emergency is have massive investment in education. thinking about the future of our country, dealing with

equality and social justice, future of our country, dealing with equality and socialjustice, the best way is to invest in education. i would want to make our country the best educated and trained country in the world within a decade. applause i will sweep around in a second, jo swinson, on climate change, the environment, you say you are anti—fracking, lib dem policies for anti—fracking, lib dem policies for aeu anti—fracking, lib dem policies for a eu wide ban. he took donations from the boss of a firm with fracking licenses, does it make you a hypocrite? -- you took. long—standing liberal democrat member and supporter and he actually has a company 80% of which is delivering renewable energy. he is delivering renewable energy. he is delivering the renewable revolution we need in our energy needs and i am absolutely anti—fracking, i have been very clear. it makes no difference to me whatsoever that he has as well as the massive renewa bles has as well as the massive renewables that he has a couple of licences. why do you say it makes no

difference to you whatsoever? you are against fracking. it is not going to influence my view. why would you take the money from him? liberal democrat member giving it in under video capacity. it does not smell right. he is leading a renewa bles smell right. he is leading a renewables revolution, we need onshore and offshore wind. on the subject of money, ed davey, last year, you claim £680 on expensive for the purchase of two fans for your constituency office —— on expenses. how is that good use of taxpayers' money? we have an office, the old air—conditioning system had broken down, it was extraordinarily difficult for them to work, doing casework for constituents. you can get in for £30 each in argos. they we re get in for £30 each in argos. they were proper air conditioning units. i think it is completely reasonable to look after staff, i am not

apologising for looking after my staff. applause why would you by the most expensive ones? dyson, ithink. why would you by the most expensive ones? dyson, i think. the why would you by the most expensive ones? dyson, ithink. the question was to try to get the best and i gave the decision to the star. reasonable, their working environment, they need to have something that works for them —— to the staff. good employers would do that. i am alexandra, a student, not a memberofany that. i am alexandra, a student, not a member of any political party at the moment. obviously, you have talked about finance, i know, ed, you talked about investing in education. given the shambles that was the coalition government in terms of student fees, tuition fees for undergraduates, i am wondering what your policies are, both of you, going forward, and how you hope to continue to influence positively young people engaging with the liberal democrat party? on tuition fees, one of the things we did in government on that was and

maintenance grants for young people from poorer backgrounds, to ensure there was bursaries for student nurses. the tories got rid of maintenance grants and bursaries for students in nursing. if you are committed to social mobility, getting equality of opportunity for all people, maintenance grants and things like this we should be a fundamental part of that and can reshape the position. how would you pay for that? i think there is a case for moderate tax rises, also... like what? we argued at the last general election, very good idea, put a penny on income tax to get £6 billion for nhs and social care. huge amount of money making a big difference to people worried about the health service and getting the social care they need. good idea, penny on income tax? yes. in terms of education, the best place for investment, which is what we did in

coalition in the pupil premium, investing in the early years. that is how we can give children the best start in life and try to level the playing field which we know is currently still so unequal. i think that needs to continue to be a focal point. the other thing, we need to get away from the mindset education is something we do until we are 18, 20, then it is eight, off into the world. i mentioned the technological revolution. —— that are set. there isa revolution. —— that are set. there is a change in the skills needed, we need learning throughout people's lives. the lib dems have proposed learning accounts for individual people that can be topped up at different points so that people can re—scale and re—train through their lies. that is what we need for individual personal development and the economy, it makes sense —— through their lives. on facebook,

making disabled people were soft and homeless, pushing children into poverty, now they are a fascist party wanting to stop brexit by removing people's votes as if it did not matter. that did not go down well with the audience here. who has not spoken? stand—up. i will let you know, toluwa is 21 today. applause she has decided to spend her 21st birthday talking about the future of the liberal democrats. good choice! lama the liberal democrats. good choice! i am a student. in london. not to temperyour i am a student. in london. not to temper your enthusiasm about winning a general election outright, but a great deal of winning elections is engaging young people and as a young person, i engaging young people and as a young person, lam engaging young people and as a young person, i am very aware you are the but of many jokes person, i am very aware you are the but of manyjokes and the subject of

many memes because it is understood there are not many of you and we are not entirely sure what you do any more. to be as polite as possible. i am wondering what it is you have plan to revitalise your image, make it seem as though... you are indeed a very viable party, from what i have heard today, but it does not seem have heard today, but it does not seem that way too many young people who are not perhaps as engaged as other people here this morning. who are not perhaps as engaged as other people here this morning”! swinson. other people here this morning.“ swinson. we have in the last three yea rs swinson. we have in the last three years a swinson. we have in the last three yea rs a lot swinson. we have in the last three years a lot of clarity and respectful standing up for what we believe a non—brexit—macro —— believe a non—brexit—macro —— believe on brexit. we are prepared to work with others to achieve that goal and secure a people's vote, it isa goal and secure a people's vote, it is a good start. in terms of young people, social media is really important and sometimes it is important and sometimes it is important not to take yourself too

seriously. i do tweet and go on instagram about policies and the climate emergency, but sometimes the things that generate the most engagement are tweeting a picture of the bus yesterday. we need to have a sense of humour too. coming to the end of the programme. keep your answer is short. brexit aside, i'm not sure if people like you and your friends know what the liberal democrats done for. i remember paddy ashdown saying he would sell his grandmother for an image for the party. his grandmother had already died. under him, we became known as the party of education. i would like us the party of education. i would like us to focus on the education and the environment. with my track record, we could be known as the party for the environment and communicate with you and your friends. a few minutes till the end of the programme, i wa nt to till the end of the programme, i want to whizz around for those who have been waiting for ages, amanda and roderick. if you would, quite concise points. amanda, a councillor

in cambridge. lib dem councillor. bring the microphone a little bit closer. i would like to see our party looking more like the audience today. mainly elderly, male, white. the same sometimes within liberal democrat party meetings. i would like to ask the candidates for the leadership what they are going to do to diversify the people within the party and also political opportunity. applause roderick as well. chairman and lib dem campaign for raising equality. i was going to say, what can you do to engage with the people that don't vote or register to vote because people of my oak, as the lady said, they don't trust you, they look at they don't trust you, they look at the lip dams, i am a person that fights from within, they say, when

the winter scandal was happening, we we re the winter scandal was happening, we were in coalition, nothing was done —— the windrush scandal. in 2030, 2040, the uk will be predominantly mixed race, bme. i'm going to ask for your point and put them all together and if you would answer concisely, that would be great.” together and if you would answer concisely, that would be great. i am a bme woman and a member of the lgbt plus community as well, i am the only member who is a young liberal and also i am until the other day the only bme person on the executive, i have had the same feedback, even in the party, ifelt very left behind, i have not felt like i fit very left behind, i have not felt likeifit in. very left behind, i have not felt like i fit in. i go to conference, i will be the only person of colour. i look at an audience and think, how ami look at an audience and think, how am i supposed to engage? it leaves me feeling really drained and the party. what is my place? interesting. brief answers. hugely

important issue. for the last 20 yea rs, important issue. for the last 20 years, i set up the party's campaign for gender balance, similar to the campaign roderick is spearheading on race. over 20 years, campaign roderick is spearheading on race. over20 years, i campaign roderick is spearheading on race. over 20 years, i have been reaching out to try to improve this in the party. it is why i ended up thinking we need mechanism such as all women short lists and similar things needed on race. i think we need to be honest because we do not get rooms like this our party is, absolutely right, no room for complacency. we need to ask people to stand and be involved in all different ways. we need to support them and we definitely need to pierce the complacency which definitely still exists in the party. one of the biggest problems facing the party, roderick, iwould work with you to tackle it. i like to think i have a bit of expense, expense , to think i have a bit of expense, expense, represent a diverse community, a lot of people from korea, sri lanka. .. community, a lot of people from korea, sri lanka... shortlists for example ? absolutely. if

korea, sri lanka... shortlists for example? absolutely. if you are the leader, one of the best things you can do is go and say, i think you would make a great 10p, please don't, i have done that for people from different communities to get them to stand for council —— a great mp. give them my personal support. really quick fire questions. we are coming to the end. you are smiling as though you are relishing what is about to come. apart from smoking cannabis at university, which you both did, have you ever broken the law? i think i have both did, have you ever broken the law? i thinkl have broken the both did, have you ever broken the law? i think i have broken the speed limita law? i think i have broken the speed limit a few times. i think too, but other than that, not. when was the last time you cried? earlier this week watching flee back.” last time you cried? earlier this week watching flee back. i think it was the birth of my first child. how long ago was that? 11 years ago. are you joking me, the last time you cried? i think so. you joking me, the last time you cried? ithink so. i can you joking me, the last time you cried? i think so. i can turn on the

taps if you really want me to. long time without crying. maybe the says more about me than you. england playing norway, who is the captain of the england team? you could ask my son, he would know.” of the england team? you could ask my son, he would know. i am not into football. pass. sorry. you tweeting about people watching the women's world cup. captain of the scotland women's team? am sorry. andrew is the one in the household watching this. he would reel off the names. on your youtube channel, a video of long—standing lib dem supporterjohn cleese endorsing you in 2015, given his tweet this year london is not really a n his tweet this year london is not really an english city anymore, would you tell him the lib dems is not the party for him anymore? yeah, ido not the party for him anymore? yeah, i do not think what he said was actual acceptable so i hope he would reflect a nd actual acceptable so i hope he would reflect and withdraw what he said because it is not right. if he doesn't, is he not welcome? we need

to be inclusive. we are a country thatis to be inclusive. we are a country that is richer through the variety of people we have. do you want to include him? not if he does not understand that is not acceptable. is he welcome a new party, john cleese? i thought that comment was completely inappropriate. i hope he will apologise. i actually don't think we should run out someone for one statement he has made. he should apologise. the music means he -- the music means it is the end. thank you. applause good morning. most of us starting off with blue skies and sunshine this morning but a bit of cloud in central and eastern areas. you can see from the satellite imagery, the cloud is burning away towards coastal parts for most of the uk,

basking in blue skies. still cloud around the north sea which could come in and across parts of coastal lincolnshire, norfolk, suffolk, in the afternoon. cloud too for the far north of scotland. for most of us, a sunny day, quite breezy, particularly in the south, fairly high gusts of winds in the south—west of england. feeling a bit fresher on easterly coasts. the highest temperatures in the west. tonight, because of the north—easterly wind, more cloud moving in from the north sea. friday could start off rather cloudy but just like today, the cloud will burn away and retreat to the east. for many again, another sunny day and a warmer day.

you're watching bbc newsroom live. it's 11 am and these are the main stories this morning... scientists say they're hopeful cervical cancer could eventually be eliminated, thanks to a vaccination programme targeting the hpv virus. new campaign pledges from the conservative leadership candidates. borisjohnson wants a points system for immigration and jeremy hunt would scrap tuition fee debts for some young entrepreneurs. europe is in the grip of a heatwave. the highest—ever temperatures forjune have been recorded in germany, poland and the czech republic. warnings are issued in france, spain and italy. laterjen here in rome is not meant to be this hard. —— late june. the real heat tends to come in

july and august, so there