tv Dateline London BBC News July 29, 2019 3:30am-4:01am BST
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two days of clashes between pro—democracy activists and hong kong police have ended. the crisis in the territory, which began over a draft extradition law, has now entered an eighth week. china's top policy unit for hong kong is to hold a rare news conference later in beijing. the us director of national intelligence, dan coats, has announced his resignation. president trump says he'll nominate a strong supporter, the texas congressman john ratcliffe, to replace him. mr coats has has often been at odds with mr trump over policy during the two years he's been in post. the personal doctor of the russian opposition leader alexei navalny says she believes he's been exposed to an unknown chemical — possibly administered by a third party. mr navalny was taken to hospital from jail on sunday after officials said he'd suffered an allergic reaction. he was detained last week.
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now on bbc news, dateline london. hello. welcome to dateline london. i'm carrie gracie. and this week — banished doomsters and gloomsters celebrate the awesome foursome if optimism packaged in a soundbite was the key to breaking brexit deadlock, then borisjohnson would be the choice of many. but is it enough? today we devote the whole programme to the challenges facing the new british prime minister. and my guests: british political commentator alex deane, us television journalist, well, us—canadian journalist, geoffrey kaufman, irish broadcaster brian o'connell, and french channelist nabila ramdan. welcome to you all. so if the ball comes loose from the back of the scrum, that is a rugby phrase borisjohnson
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himself once used to talk about the opportunity to become party leader and prime minister. the ball came loose, it's now in his hands, but there is a lot standing between this player and his try. parliament has blocked the brexit deal agreed by his predecessor, but nor is parliament prepared to tolerate no deal. the eu says the deal it agreed to is not up for renegotiation. the public remain profoundly divided, the pound is weakening. the new prime minister is boxed in by unforgiving political and economic realities. a chameleon, a joker, at a moment which demands strategy and execution. and yet and yet, alex, does this first week of borisjohnson in office suggest that behind the joker‘s mask there is a steely strategy? i think it's been an amazing start.
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i don't think anyone can deny — whatever you think of boris or the tory agenda, there is a sense of purpose and dynamism and energy which has really transformed westminster. it feels like an entirely different political environment. and you see it in the westminster village, you see the way that journalists are responding to these discussions and the enlivened situation in the press conference that you guys were just discovering live. this is not what we've had for the last few years, and with no disrespect to theresa may or her government, itjust feels like this administration has had a real shot in the arm and a shot of positivity which i think is all to the good. the other thing of i would really emphasise is this, that the british electorate, leave or remain, is pretty sick and tired of talking about brexit. so in this kind of — the first hundred days that any politician focuses on, boris‘ domestic agenda that has been set out with all of these new cabinet ministers, has been received exceptionally — i think — positively because it's talking about what we're going to do
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as a country in addition to brexit. and i think all of those things, whether it be more police officers, funding and approaching in schools or indeed in what he is saying on brexit, and an attempt to resolve things in a different to his predecessor, i think all of it's a positive thing in the right direction. nabila — you next. do you agree with alex, do you see this it as a good week? well, i think all of the policies that borisjohnson's coming up with at the moment are a clear distraction from the overwhelming issue of brexit. he's trying to give the impression he get stuck in governmentjobs and involving things such as economic revival, but the one thing that's high on people's mind is that single issue which is brexit and that's what his administration will be judged on. and i think there's a fascination in watching the boris johnson administration unfold, but i can't pretend it is a positive fascination, instead there is a chilling and rather freakish aspect to the whole debacle. on the one hand, it's by far the most viciously right—wing and indeed brutish conservative government any of us can remember, and on the other hand they're making out that day have the guile and sensitivity to deliver and to sort out one of the most divisive issues in british history.
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the reality is, a restrained british government has failed miserably to deliver brexit in three years, and yet mrjohnson is now pretending that he's going to sort everything out by halloween. the reality is he has a tiny majority in parliament, most of his competent ministers, potential ministers, have either resigned or have been sacked and humiliated, and the eu has made it abundantly clear that they don't want to negotiate anymore. there is a distinctly trump—style feel to this government. it feels maverick, it feels unpredictable. and yet mrjohnson thinks that the sheer power of his personality can now change everything. the truth is he is himself, a very divisive figure and he surrounded himself with politicians who are even more so.
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jeffrey, we've heard two contending realities painted, which do you subscribe to? well, i think it's interesting to see a master communicator take the helm after may's halting inability — inauthentic way of communicating and i — ithink what's so fascinating, in this week of this extraordinary heatwave of climate change, we have this political climate change that parallels it and really parallels and reflects what's happened across the atlantic in the united states. we have had this populist leader with the ability to really connect with at least a certain sector of people and mobilise that sector with impassioned rhetoric. the question is, 'can he actually deliver?‘ this is a man who is extremely agile with words and it's fun to listen to him, but ultimately, as we've noted, he's got 90 days to deliver brexit. we have the eu intransigent, and these are notjust political matters, they are emotional, nationalistic matters and so to assume that rational thought on the eu side, or here, will prevail means that we are really driving down a road through the fog. yes, let's follow, we promised we would get you there. we don't know if there's a cliff.
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there are so many assumptions about brexit. yet there is hell or high water, full speed ahead, damn the torpedoes approach, has no consideration of the consequences. none of us can predict what a hard brexit would do. it's fair to say that, you know, it might be ok, but it might be catastrophic. and yet we're being told that's where we are going. brian, before we follow—up with jeffrey's about the fog and the heading for the — you know, those 100 days, just dealfor a moment with the first week, what's your assessment? it isn't often a agree with alex on this programme. i do agree with him on one thing, though, it is like a breath of fresh air in a very hot and humid westminster at the moment.
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and as jeffrey says, he is a very good communicator. having said all that, he's still in campaign mode. and the campaign is over, and the delivery has to start. now, borisjohnson is very good at campaigning, he's not very good at details, he'd probably admit that himself. he delegated a lot when he was mayor of london and he'll probably have to delegate more now. the problem is being prime minister is all about the detail, not least in brexit and the backstop and everything else we can talk about later. but, initially, i think it is a very good strategy to actually talk about the sort of things we've just seen him talking about in manchester about infrastructure, about all the other things. because people at large, the voters, are fed up listening to politicians arguing about brexit. we'll have more in the next few minutes. alex, can i get you to deal with behind the atmospherics of the first week, what about the cabinet? sure. because those were some serious charges led by nabila, what's your response to the figures
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we've seen promoted? sure. well, the first thing, being prime minister isn't all about details, it is about agenda setting and delegating, that's an important part of the role. and that's what he did as mayor of london. and i think we'd welcome delegation to good ministers. the second thing — i think it's remarkable, this is the most diverse cabinet in british history. two british asians in vert senior roles, our first asian chancellor, two black people attending cabinet, kwasi kwarteng and of course james cleverly, the first black chairman of my party. and i look to what's happening in the way those people are being treated. sometimes — huff post said we shouldn't let young people see these ministers because their whiteness means they're not really asian, that's how these people are being treated in these senior roles. but wait a minute — you talk about diverse, i think — i believe it's 64% of this cabinet went to fee—paying public schools, what we call private schools, in a country where 7% of the population does, that is not a reflection of this country. i know that will never satisfy those like you who criticise our government, to say well,
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you wanted diversity, look at this. no, no, i need another kind of diversity now. they're the wrong kind of asians, or they're the wrong black people. it's a monoculture. they're privileged one way or another. alex answered that point, though, there is the question of socio—economic diversity, class diversity is a real question. yes. if you satisfy one issue, of course the left will turn to the next and say that's... it's not about left, i'm not left, i'm just bemused that in this country that is with the mother of all parliaments, where democracy has such history, that the upper—class continues to dominate. i don't know about upper—class. i went to a comprehensive throughout my time as a schoolboy because that's where my parents sent me, and i'm sick and tired of people in our country being blamed for where their parents sent them to go to school. it wasn't their choice. it wasn't your choice where went to school, and it wasn't my choice where i went, and it wasn't theirs either. and it's a way of avoiding the real issues which has really cheapened... 0k, we're going to leave the diversity point and go back to the way that the new cabinet divides on brexit. because i supposed what's interested a lot of people in the first week
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was that brexiteers who were — had been disloyal to borisjohnson were out of the cabinet in some cases, and remainers who were loyal to borisjohnson were promoted. so it wasn't — belief in brexit was not the defining thing for him. and i think that's a good thing. he didn't say right, this is only a government of brexiteers. i think that would have been too exclusionary. this is a government in a hurry and this government wants to get things done quickly. and what boris did was to require those who formally had been remain campaigners to sign up effectively to collective cabinet government, something which many of us might think has been sadly missing for some time in recent political events. and to say you are going to get behind and subscribe to the belief that we are coming out on october 31, whether or not you campaigned for remain in the past. i think that's good. but the other thing i think about these cabinet appointments, it is this. that we've finally got a sense or direction and dynamism within cabinet in their domestic roles rather than just around brexit. so, apart from michael gove who was set on banning things left right and centre in the environment, most of our cabinet ministers were stymied by a mix of austerity on the one hand and a focus
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on brexit on the other. now we have people harrowing houses for housing policy, proper attitudes and attempt to build more policing on our streets. but for boris it still is brexit. but my point is you can do both, and for so long our political environment has been so dominated by the brexit discussion, that our domestic agenda, which people care about has been dropped away. if, as borisjohnson says, he wants to renegotiate the withdrawal agreement, and he's got what, 90 days or so, and about 20—something, two dozen of those will be parliamentary sitting days, he's going — he's not going to have much time for doing anything else other than brexit. that's a different question. that's been indicated of course that parliament can sit late and can sit on days it wouldn't normally sit, if required. so the days may be longer than that. and bear in mind, you can get things done in parliament if you have a will to. and that's what i take such comfort from. this is plainly a government that's got a determination to finish things. i agree with you, alex, that what johnson is doing is what the people of this country
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want, talking about things other than brexit. there is no question that everyone is fed up with the single topic that has dominated for the last three years. and how brilliant to go to manchester, saturday morning, to announce h53 connecting the north, which feels so disenfranchised and so angry at the amount of investment and infrastructure we've seen. and london, it is terrific here, if some of it were to open it'd be even better, but i think it is a masterful stroke. and it is actually responding to what the people want. but the problem in that agenda is that there is this clock ticking and it doesn't have long and there are so many uncertainties. and this is this notion that we are going to see it reopen, maybe, but i don't see how. the irish border and the backstop, how does that get resolved? there are massive existential questions that need answers in three months. sorry, nabila, you go next. do you see answers emerging from what from the prime minister? i must dwell on the credibility of this government, if i may. i want to focus ms patel, his home secretary, who personifies
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the freakish nature of this government. this was someone who was a far from popular ex—lobbyist for the alcohol and tobacco industries, she's apparently still a lobbyist, £1000 an hour lobbyist, and potentially in clear breach of the ministerial... well, she'll have to stop doing that as home secretary. indeed. but we know, this is also somebody who was forced out of government as international development secretary, because of her dealings with the israeli government, effectively she was offering humanitarian aid to. nabila, we don't have time to spend to do the back story of priti patel. 0n the question of the brexit offer as made by the new prime minister, where do you think the new cabinet and he himself are taking this? where do you think the new cabinet and he himself are taking us? what signs do you see at this point?
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well, i think, of most of the new ministers in borisjohnson‘s government have this area of menace about them, just as priti patel does, and none of them have proven their record of sorting out complicated policy problems. and that's a huge worry. i think that it's absolutely ludicrous to think that britain can actually break away from the trading block it's surrounded by. the only way this clean break can happen is if britain changed its actual geographical position, which, of course, won't happen. and my own prediction is that mrjohnson will approach, will strike a deal with nigel farage‘s brexit party for electoral support and nigel farage, in return, for a full—blooded brexit as a carrot, and nigel farage being a whiny politician, will have no qualms whatsoever pushing his own populist agenda in joining forces. is that a possible tomorrow in your world?
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i just don't recognise the characterisation of the people we're talking about. sajid javid, our asian politician, son of a bus driver, perhaps not diverse enough or the wrong kind of asian for some people, but nevertheless, i think a significant fact, has a long track record at deutsche bank in finance. i don't know what you find threatening or brutish about that. most of his cabinet ministers are... crosstalk. all right, but let's agree that most people thought that his appointment of chancellor was going to be the most significant appointment that boris would make around the cabinet table. seems you're silent on that one. i would think that's a good thing. as far as the scenarios for brexit that you're setting out are concerned, actually, i view things more positively than jefferey and nabila have just set out. i look to the fact that angela merkel says that the backstop can be overwritten. i contrast that with some of the earlier statements that we heard from people like barnier saying nothing could change. plainly, the heads of national government are looking to do a deal in this closing time and you are right to point out that time is short, but sometimes that's when people make moves that mean negotiations come off and deals happen. sometimes it is pressure of time that means you get a result in negotiations, and the other thing
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that means you get a result in negotiations sometimes is if you change the people at the table, you change the negotiation. you're absolutely right, and sometimes that's true and sometimes it's not and that's what's scary about the next 90 days, because, you might be right, alex. i think all of us would be delighted to see, whatever the outcome, a smooth transition to whatever and we move on and this country grows and flourishes. but the "sometimes", it's a pretty big caveat. can ijust bring brian in on the backstop? because this is, ostensibly, such a big issue. alex is suggesting it may not be as serious a problem. what do you think? it is a huge problem and it is going to be a problem, and i don't understand what angela merkel means when she says it can be overwritten. there is certainly room in the political declaration, which is annexed to the withdrawal agreement, to be tweaked and the wording changed slightly.
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everybody from michel barnier, to the irish, the germans, the french, say that negotiation is not going to be reopened. now, the new prime minister says... that's a negotiating position, right? well, yes, so the new prime minister's negotiating position is to go into the room, saying, "i'm not going to sit in that chair unless you drop the backstop." that is not a good opening negotiating position for the new british government. it's not going to work. crosstalk. saying you won't talk about it on the other side isn't one either. so, they're going to meet somewhere in the middle. no, no. for example, the irish government, there was a lot of sabre rattling. the underlying relationship between the british and irish government's exceptionally good. the irish government has welcomed the appointment ofjulian smith, the former chief whip, as northern ireland's secretary and so on, and there is signs of progress on getting stormont up and running, but... stormont being the devolved assembly... stormont being the devolved assembly
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that hasn't been sitting for — what — 2017 — two years and a bit. however, on the issue of the backstop, keeping the border open and everything else, the irish actually have no room to move except to increase their no deal preparations which they are doing. they have, for quite a long time, been talking quite openly about what they've been doing on the east—west access, you know, dublin port and rosslare and that kind of thing. and they've been talking less about the north—south border because it is more politically sensitive but that work has been going on quite intensively. now, the problem with the whole thing is that the backstop cannot be taken out or overwritten simply because it is the guarantee,
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and i know there have been other proposals that involve the gatt 2a provisions and so on whereby the backstop could be negotiated further down the line, the free trade agreement, but it has been made very clear by barnier, by veradker and numerous others... crosstalk. that it can't come out... ..that it has to be agreed before the free trade agreement starts. so are you saying, alex, that when the prime minister boris johnson says it has to be abolished, that that is merely a negotiating position? because of course we've heard the irish government saying it is a collision course. i imagine we're going to reqch compromise, and that is the art of negotiation and i think that's where both sides will come to, and we're thinking about what that might mean. given that the whole of the withdrawal agreement passed our parliament except for the backstop, because we saw the brady amendment said if we didn't have the backstop would you vote for it? it's the only thing a majority in our parliament have said yes to. we can look at the withdrawal agreement and think, well, if that's going to go through without the backstop, if we put, for argument's sake, a time limit on the backstop, if invoked, five or even, say,
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ten years, you have a two—year transition period and then a ten—year time on a backstop everyone says they don't want anyway. who knows where the irish, british or the european economy are going to be in 12 years' time? that's more certainty than what you get in almost any trading environment. and yet, of course, you know better than i, that there are mps in your party who won't like that, the so—called spartans, the two dozen out, on the extreme who voted consistently against the withdrawal agreement. in the end, we're going to have to decide whether we want brexit or not. what's fascinating for me as someone who, clearly, wasn't born here, this is the united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland and does borisjohnson, a man who clearly loves his own image, want to go down in history as the man who forced the uk out of the eu and led to scotland leaving great britain, northern ireland being reunited with the republic
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and great britain becoming little britain? ican't imagine that's how he wants... well, the obvious answer is no because he's called it the 'awesome foursome‘. absolutely, bue he's got to navigate something more than a hard brexit off the cliff, or that is a very real possibility. crosstalk. just one for nabila. 0n the issue of the backstop, may i say, priti patel has actually suggested that the threat of starvation as in the irish famine, could actually help resolve the backstop problem. so, this is the kind of far right, reactionary comments and low intellect soundbites we are getting from members of this new administration, and i think it will be a very short—lived one and a new general election will be called shortly. i think it is — the wider population actually needs a general election in the interest of democracy. as a us broadcaster actually put it, 0.13% of the uk population voted for borisjohnson to become prime minister and they‘ re generally
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elderly discredited members of the conservative party. crosstalk. i'm just going to let brian first and then others. 0n the backstop, this idea that started a few years ago where the british were saying they need us more than we need them, it was all about trade. the backstop is all about trade. the backstop is notjust about a trading border. the reason the good friday agreement is important and, therefore, the backstop is important to guarantee that that border stays open, is also about identity. which comes back tojeffrey's point. it's about the identity of nationalists living in northern ireland, which goes to your point exactly about the break—up of the uk — the good friday agreement gives nationalists living in northern ireland the opportunity to say, "i am comfortable living in this part of the uk, because i can say i'm irish, i'm british, i can have whichever passport i want and that border will stay open." that's not necessarily about trade,
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it's simply about national identity and that is something that is never mentioned or understood on the british side when it comes to the good friday agreement and the backstop. everybody understands all the stuff about the trucks going over and back across the border for trade, but identity is equally as important and for the irish government as well and for people in northern ireland and for the irish political parties, is at the centre of this as well. right, i'm going to rebutt both of these ones. 0n the good friday agreement, people waft at it all the time, it's actually already an excise border, a tax border, a vat border. of course, there is an important element of identity that might be determined by having a hard border, but given our government, your government saying they're not going to put one up, who is? possibly the eu, but otherwise, nobody. and on nebila's idea that it's undemocratic, you seem not to think about parliamentary democracy and the way it works in this country. because we had an election that produced a result voted by the millions for conservative members of parliament and then the conservative party changed its leader.
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if you had an objection to people deciding borisjohnson would be the leader of the conservative party, you must have been utterly outraged about gordon brown becoming the leader of the labour party and, therefore, prime minister without even having a vote amongst the members. i'm making a very simple point that if the tory extremist brexiteers are such great democrats, and they want the british people to take back control, then a swift election is a must. you don't think government can change its leader and prime minister without having an election? because that's not how this country's worked hitherto, so why should it follow the nabila ramdani rule? it's not the nabila ramdani rule, it's the view that it will be a very short—lived government and, therefore, unsustainable. so, are you saying — when do you think this election that you're talking about is going to happen? just very briefly, we're really running out of time now. when do you expect an election? well, i think by the end of the year, to be honest. i think, listen, he's got a majority of three, probably going down to two. he's dependent on the dup for his majority. there is a drumbeat of uncertainty happening here. he could lose his majority, an election could be forced,
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he could call an election. stay tuned, watch this channel. ten seconds each, brian. after brexit, possibly by the end of the year, but not before brexit if he can help it at all. the tory party can't go to the polls before we've left to the eu. if we do, we'll be marmalised. that's right. so, we're going to leave the eu, in your view, on october the 31st, and then an election, what, next year? correct, i think so. i think borisjohnson actually knows he's going to have to crash out because... and when doesn scotland leave? oh, for goodness sake... before northern ireland, i tell you that. crosstalk. it won't be northern ireland first. it won't be. but it's going to fall to pieces if britain crashes out of the eu. what, scotland's going to join the euro, it's going to leave the uk, join the euro? this is ridiculous. and on that question, which we don't have time to answer, we are going to have to leave it. thank you all so much for being here on the panel today. quite an interesting discussion was had and we will have another one, same place,
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same time, next week. goodbye. good morning. for those of you awakened a of relentless rain, monday will be a better day. the weather front is still with us, sitting across northern ireland and southern scotland. it will continue to break up scotland. it will continue to break up into light showers. but it is a rather cloudy, murky day generally into scotland. dry and bright between england and cambridgeshire where we saw wet weather. the highest values are likely to be in the south—east with some decent sunshine and 26 degrees. the wind
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will strengthen, and will arrive by the end of the day and this will be a significant area of low pressure, which will bring some outbreaks of showery rain. some of those showers are heavy with rumbles of thunder, that goes into wednesday. they will push their way steadily eastward so oui’ push their way steadily eastward so our week ahead still looks pretty u nsettled. our week ahead still looks pretty unsettled. yes, we have lost the intense heat. it will be fresher but there will be 20 of sharp, thundery downpours.
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this is bbc news. welcome if you're watching here in the uk, or around the globe. our top stories: after a weekend of protests in hong kong, the beijing government calls a rare news conference to respond to the crisis. riot police have been moving people through the streets. they're now making arrests. they've fired more tear gas. reinforcements are coming in. in the us, the director of national intelligence resigns after repeated disagreements with president trump. wejoin the police in the south african city of cape town where, on average,eight people are murdered every day. and millions of dollars at his fingertips. we speak to the 16—year—old who won the first ever fortnite
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