police in hong kong have once again clashed with protesters in several parts of the territory. riot police fired tear gas to try to drive back the activists. it's the tenth consecutive week of unrest. donald trump has been accused of promoting unfounded conspiracy theories about the apparent suicide of the disgraced financier jeffrey epstein. he was found dead in his cell while waiting to be tried on sex trafficking charges. and this story about a celebrity break—up is doing well on our website. the singer miley cyrus and her actor husband liam hemsworth are splitting up, less than a year after they got married. they didn't give any reason, but say they will both now focus on their careers. that's all for now. stay with bbc world news.

now on bbc news, hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur stop for many americans, donald trump's incendiary tweets aimed at immigrants and citizens of colour show him to be a racist and white nationalists. but maybe we exaggerate the importance of donald trump is my contribution to america's problem with race. the roots of racism run deep, and an honest assessment of their strength has barely begun. so says my gas, ibram kendi, prize—winning writer on race and founder of the antiracist research and policy centre in washington, dc. can the us avenue affects —— can be us everfix a

problem so intimately bound up with its past? —— the us. ibram kendi, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me on the show. i think we have to start with donald trump, and the role he is playing today in the united states, seemingly inflaming race tensions gci’oss seemingly inflaming race tensions across the country with his tweets aimed at immigrants, aimed at some of his political critics, women of colour. should we see him as something very different, an outlier, an aberration? or do you think that actually, donald trump is pa rt think that actually, donald trump is part of something systemic?” think that actually, donald trump is part of something systemic? i think he is something systemic. i think

donald trump, when you look at his rhetoric, when you look at his campaign, you are looking at someone who is saying that these immigrants are the problem. and many americans have been believing for decades, supposedly, that latinx immigration isa supposedly, that latinx immigration is a problem. you are talking about somebody in trump who is saying that we should be fearing muslims because they are terrorising us. you are talking about, you know, a candidate, a president, who is saying that black communities are infested with danger, they are so dangerous and people are living in hell. these ideas are widespread and they were widespread before his emergence. trump of course just, they were widespread before his emergence. trump of coursejust, you know, seeped into that well and formulated a political project around those ideas. is there a part of you, is your expertise and your academic devotion is to studying antiracism and the degrees to which you can improve race relations in

the united states, is part of you thinking to yourself, maybe there is something positive about the trump presidency? he is lifting a veil, being more honest about feelings which are deeply entrenched in some parts of the nation? i think that certainly, as someone who studies racism, as somebody who is encouraging americans to be antiracist, many americans have now, they are not able to really deny how powerful and how pervasive racism still lives in america. so they are opening up, therefore, to more serious conversations about the history and presence of racism. they are becoming more serious about the need to be antiracist. some of them are recognising that they don't want to be like trump and identify as not racist, and the way white nationalists and trump do, and they see the world antiracism, so that is a good thing. you raise a lot of things there. we will get to watch

nationalism as a phenomenon a bit later. it seems to me you want americans to take sides. it seems to me you are suggesting they have a duty to take sides and become very engaged in all of this. you say there is no in between safe space of defining yourself does not racist. you are either racist, you say, or you are antiracist. not racism, as a phenomenon, neutrality, may be, that is simplya phenomenon, neutrality, may be, that is simply a mask to hide racism. phenomenon, neutrality, may be, that is simply a mask to hide racismm is. most americans strive to be, to identify themselves as not racist. but what i think most americans... see, i would naturally say, if somebody discussed it with me, or accused me of it, i would say, i am not racist. yes. but i guess, what we don't realise, though, is so too with segregationists, slaveholders, straight —— slave traders. so white nationalists self identify as not

racist. when we ask them, what does it mean to be not racist? they can't really a nswer that it mean to be not racist? they can't really answer that question. because not racist really has no meaning. it is essentially saying no, no, no, no matter what i say or what i do, i am not racist. and so it is a term that doesn't have any meaning. see, i instinctively think it does have meaning. it means i don't have instinctive or inbuilt prejudice, as far as instinctive or inbuilt prejudice, as farasi instinctive or inbuilt prejudice, as faras i am instinctive or inbuilt prejudice, as far as i am aware, in the sense that i know myself, i can say, i don't have racist feelings. and you are delegitimising but as a feeling i can have. so then my response would be, what feelings do you have? in other words, and antiracist believes that the racial groups are equals. a racist believes that certain racial groups are better and worse than others. and so often times, people are in denial about the ways in which they may actually think that certain racial groups are better or

worse than others. is it unconscious? to a certain extent, the racism, that might be on me?|j think in many ways, we are not conscious. the way, for instance, i would ask a person to figure out whether they have ideas they are unconscious about, i would ask them, why does this racial disparity exist? to give an example, in the united states, black people are twice as likely to be unemployed. so i would ask an american, ways that the case? and some americans don't consciously realise that they believe that this disparity exists because there is something wrong with black workers. or they don't realise that that idea is a racist idea. and so they say they are not racist even though they have these racist even though they have these racist ideas. but let me flip it around. if you tell me just defining yourself does not racist has no real meaning, what is the real meaning, then, of being antiracist? sure, so, to me, the meaning of being antiracist, first and foremost, is

recognising the way in which we have been trained, we have been nurtured in many ways, to look out at our racially unequal society and think the cause of that is something wrong with people of colour. it causes us to identify, confess, admit, the way in which we have been trained to see racial hierarchy. and then it causes us racial hierarchy. and then it causes us to say, you know what? i'm going to be different. i'm going to see the racial groups as equals. i'm going to challenge racist policies and i'm going to be very active in eliminating racial disparity in my nation. and you have to be active. you have to be active. can you imagine if you do nothing in the face of racial disparities? what is going to happen? they are going to remain. doing nothing is literally allowing those disparities to persist. is there something in your own background that due to this understanding of racism? essentially, i want you to tell me what, growing up as a kid in new york drew you to these ideas. well,

imean, how york drew you to these ideas. well, i mean, how to be an antiracist is largely a confessional. it is a confessional of myjourney, my journey being raised to believe that there was something wrong with black people. the mean you were raised to bea people. the mean you were raised to be a racist? i was raised to be a racist. and i think it is common in america to be raised to believe there is something wrong with a particular racial group. and yet in your book, how to be an antiracist, your book, how to be an antiracist, you emphasise that your parents were very active and caring parents, they wa nted very active and caring parents, they wanted the best for you, they were also very conscious of politics, of the liberation struggle, all sorts of stuff. you would think that would be an environment where you would be encouraged and raised to absolutely not be racist. and i think it really shows the complexities, right? it's not just good people. shows the complexities, right? it's notjust good people. i should say bad people. it is notjust people who are white nationalists who think there is something wrong with a particular racial group. and in the 19805 and 19905, there were dominant

ideas even among people who were liberal, even among people who had come out of the civil rights movement, the reason why so many black people were so poor, the reason why so many black people would be mass incarcerated, was because of their behaviour or a cultural deficiency, that black people needed to take personal responsibility. and these were the ideas that were dominant in the 905, so ideas that were dominant in the 905, so much so that i consumed them wholesale. so you are sort of blaming your parents for your racism asa blaming your parents for your racism as a youth. ijust wonder how your pa rents as a youth. ijust wonder how your parents feel about that, given that they are classical liberal civil rights oriented by parents? -- black pa rents. rights oriented by parents? -- black parents. my parents, i think, rights oriented by parents? -- black parents. my parents, ithink, like me, we have commonly moved away from these ideas, as i think many americans have in general. i think any americans, for instance, looking back at the 1994 crime bill and seeing that as a problem. so in many ways many americans have moved to be more antiracist. and so i think many

americans are recognising that those ideas they believed in the 19905 we re ideas they believed in the 19905 were indeed racist. you talk of shame. shame about some of the things you used to believe as a teenager. i think there was one famous, well, i know there was from the book, there was this famous moment where you are in an oratory competition at our school. you gave this incredibly impressive speech, innocence, sort of blaming black youth for some of their own problems. —— in essence. and now you say you are ashamed. problems. —— in essence. and now you say you are ashamedlj problems. —— in essence. and now you say you are ashamed. i am completely ashamed. it is hard for me to even watch that speech. i have it on an old vhs tape. because i was led to believe the problems of black youth, what black youth force —— were struggling with, what was causing them to have problems, was not racist policies or racial profiling or them being mass incarcerated, so it was not spending four times more likely to be unemployed than they we re likely to be unemployed than they were two generations ago. it was because of their behavioural problems. so this speech that i

gave, problems. so this speech that i a problems. so this speech that i gave, as this martin luther king oratorical contest in 2000, when i was a senior in high school, i basically said that. i said, what is wrong with the black youth as they don't value education. what is wrong with black youth is that they are too often times getting pregnant. what is wrong with black youth is that parents are not raising them right. and anytime we say that there is something wrong with the racial group, we are expressing a racist idea. you clearly have been brave in the sense that you have said, look, black people can be racistjust as easily as white people can, if i am paraphrasing you correctly. but what you seem to be doing is going through us history, because, you know, in the books you have written, you basically, in one of them, you rather arrogantly declare a definitive history of racism in the united states, new catalogue racism and you include in the racist camp people like frederick douglass, for

example. and even, at times, you suggest barack obama had a very significant elements of racism in his political approach and thinking. so frankly, who isn't racist? well, the book you are referencing, which was a long history of racist ideas, what i did was very simple. i defined a racist idea, which was any idea that suggested a group is superior or inferior to another racial group in any way. understand that book specifically chronicled racist ideas. the idea that there was something wrong with black people. and so over the course of history, you have had people who have either said there is something genetically wrong with black people, culturally wrong with black people asa culturally wrong with black people as a group, or behaviourally wrong with black people. and when i came to that definition, i then went in search of history. and i was not going to exclude someone because i appreciated them like frederick douglass, who was one of my heroes.

i was not going to exclude someone, if somebody said there was something wrong with black people, and if somebody said there is something wrong with people today, someone is expressing a racist idea. and to bring it more to date, a giant of contemporary us politics, barack obama, whose presidency, his 2—term presidency, we are also familiar with, are you suggesting that there we re ways with, are you suggesting that there were ways in which obama was a racist in his approach to race issues, and his messages to black people in america? so i think one of his most brilliant speeches was the race speech he gave in philadelphia during his campaign in 2008. known as the race speech. the race speech. i think we should very critically and closely read that speech, yet again. it was a brilliant speech, and in many ways he spoke about the racial discrimination, or as i say, the racist policies that were prevailing in america. but at times

he talked about this idea but there was something that black people were not doing. and to give an example, he would speak about black people in a way, being defeatist. in other words, because of these generations of discrimination, some black people had stopped trying. and that was the reason why some of these disparities existed. and so i am going to protect that. he also, at a time —— going to critique that. he also, at a time, said that there were some truths to white anxieties. these are ideas that suggested that part of the reason these disparities existed was because of what black people we re was because of what black people were not doing, or that there was some truth in what racist ideas. do you not believe at all in this sort of, this notion of uplift? of inspiration, of aspiration? that there are individuals like obama, who can have enormous positive impact through the arc of a career like is?

obviously barack obviously ba rack obama obviously barack obama has inspired millions of people around the world in many ways, brought all sorts of great things to the world. but would you say here has particularly inspired black americans? without questions. here is still beloved among duck americans. and i think similar is what i'm really trying to get out, you know, with my work is, we, i think, get out, you know, with my work is, we, ithink, we get out, you know, with my work is, we, i think, we too often want to exclude or include people in the dust typically ourselves, from whether they are ever expressing racist ideas or whether there ever supporting policies that actually create more racial inequity. and i think what we need to do is humanity, talking about these racial issuesis humanity, talking about these racial issues is defined terms. define what a racist idea is and whoever says that idea, call it racist. define what a racist is an weather act that

way, call them racist. that is essentially what i'm seeking to do and it doesn't really matter who the person is, nor does it matter how much i admire them. if they say something that suggest there is something that suggest there is something wrong with a racial group, not an individual, but a racial group, then that is a problem. how do you reach out to white america with your message about antiracism and the need to be proactively engaged with it? well, i think first and foremost, many white americans, one of the reasons why they resist acknowledging their racism is because they have been sought, like people worldwide, that racist is a term is a label, it's attached to, it's a fixed identity, it is a bad person. it is deeply pejorative, it's an insult. it is an insult, but you know who was said it was an insult? richard spencer. the white nationalist wrote that racist isn't a descriptive term, it is a

pejorative term. what i would argue with richard spencer, no, racist is a descriptive term. it describes when a person is saying there is something wrong with a particular racial group. it describes when someone is doing nothing in the face of racial inequity. it describes when someone is supporting a policy thatis when someone is supporting a policy that is creating more racial inequity. and what's interesting about that term, like ante racist, is one minute, i can say something thatis is one minute, i can say something that is deeply racist, you know, this is what is wrong with black people, and then in the next minute ican people, and then in the next minute i can say well, this is the ways that racial groups are equals. i'm just wondering, with your sort of fascinating but nonetheless quite a bstra ct fascinating but nonetheless quite abstract theorising about some of this, whether you are failing to sort of reach out to the hearts and minds of ordinary folk. because in essence, what you are saying to many ordinary americans, and let us focus on white americans right now, is that they are racist. very

instinctive reaction to that will be one of absolute indignation. we are not racist, they will say. and if you say, but, hang on a minute, what are you doing to fight the presidency of donald trump, a man who, as we discussed at the beginning of the interview has used all sorts of epithets and words about immigrants and people of colour that many regard as unacceptable. what are you doing to fight it? they might say well, we're going to vote against him, but is that enough? vermeer, no. what i would also say to white americans is has racism benefited you more than ina more has racism benefited you more than in a more gullet are in society? i think what people have been misled to believe is that i think people recognise, and it's true, racism benefits white people in the united states more than people of colour. but the question is, if we had a truly gullet terry in society where

bigotry and no form dominated —— egalitarian society, if people were not able to be manipulated into voting for a candidate due to their racist ideas and were instead able to vote for whatever candidate boost whatever policies benefited them, or would actually happen is white middle classes and working classes would have more than they do now. they would be more egalitarian or equalising in society. that is fascinating but then i would point to one specific measure that you regard as fundamentally important to antiracist agenda, and that is reparations. your argument is the united states of america needs to make massive and ansell reparations —— reparations to descendants of the slaves who were enslaved for so long, suffered for so much and whose descendants of the black americans

of today. it would cost upwards of $1 trillion for meaningful compensation to be delivered. most americans regard that as both impractical but also probably unjust, because they personally are not responsible. well, first, that is not how i would frame the reparations debate. how i sort of frame the reparations debate is currently we have a racial wealth gap in the united states. the weight median wealth is about ten times more than black median wealth. —— white, and that gap is growing such that by 2050, forecasters are estimated that black median wealth will redline at $0 and during that same period, wait median wealth would have grown. so we have a growing racial wealth gap. and what i ask of my fellow americans is how do we reduce that racial wealth gap

which is both the result of past and present racist policies without reparations? that is the question i asked, and i would be more than willing to think about any other sort of policy that can reduce the racial wealth gap if it's not reparations. this is such a live debate right now, the congressional testimony about reparations recently, one black commentator, i believe he is respected, colvin hughes, he said "i worry our desire to fix the past compromises our ability to fix the present." there isa ability to fix the present." there is a difference between allowing history to distract us from the problems of today. we don't need an apology, we need better schools, better neighbourhoods, a better criminal justice system. better neighbourhoods, a better criminaljustice system. you accept the logic of his argument? what i would say is his argument is that — when you think about wealth, wealth is the combination of the past and present, right? you have people who

pass on well, people who wealth, people who invest and that wealth grows over time. and so you can, when you talk about a racial wealth gap, separate the past from the present. past is the present, especially relating to wealth. which is why something like reparations, which both combines the past and the present is an effective strategy. aren't you setting up to fail? we've been here before in the early 2000. there was a movement to have reparations put on the agenda, it died and failed. it is almost certainly going to fail in this current political climate. if you push reparations as the ultimate litmus test about whether america is serious about dismantling racism, you are setting up for a very negative and bleak output. you are setting up for a very negative and bleak outputlj wouldn't say it's the ultimate litmus test, i'm saying it the litmus test, i'm saying it the litmus test, i'm saying it the litmus test to say if they are serious about eliminating the racial wealth gap, one of the serious racial disparities we have in our

society. and there are other tests for other issues but this is just one of many. and in terms of the cost of reparations, you know, we can't forget in the united states, i can't forget in the united states, i can't forget, in the united states that we have through our letter or government budget, —— heart of the federal government budget goes to the military. the war on terror cost trillions of dollars. the idea that there is no money to literally provide reparations, it could be shifting money from places and spaces that americans actually don't necessarily support. in nothing more than a few words, do you think america is travelling in the right direction in terms of addressing the race question? i think there are two cars, one is travelling in the right direction, the answer racist car, and the racist car is travelling in

the wrong direction. these two because i racing —— because i racing each other. we've been bumping cars from the founding of this country. we have doing there, but thank you very much for being on hardtalk. your welcome. thank you. good evening. an unseasonably deep area of low pressure has been in charge, making it feel more like november. the week ahead looks a little bit quieter, but still unsettled. particularly on wednesday and things are feeling rather cool and breezy, too. now the low pressure they brought us that we can's wet and windy weather is now pushing us

towards the north—east, but we've still got a few weather fronts coming into the country during monday morning. so, some heavy showers, particularly in the south. some funds don is possible to anywhere from the channel isles up toward sussex and kent as well. the north of that, a little bit drier. so some sunshine of an offer, through the midlands towards wales the north—west of england. a little bit of light, does the rain still coming infor bit of light, does the rain still coming in for north—east england the monday morning. and since showers coming into parts of northern ireland and west scotland, but for the bulk of scotland, a much improved day after the heavy rain and flooding we've had recently. much drier weatherfor and flooding we've had recently. much drier weather for scotland. a few showers towards the north and west. some showers, 24 northern ireland but through the south of england we also going to see if you have this hours today. but, some sunshine and it is generally a drier day than we have seen recently. only 16- 90 day than we have seen recently. only 16— 90 degrees to the north—westerly breeze, so things are feeling quite a bit cooler and fitter than they have done. showers will continue to monday night to tuesday but they will slowly ease away towards these through into the early hours and quite widely in the countryside down

into single figures. so quite a cold, fresh start for tuesday for tuesday for many of us. this departures should clear a pretty quickly. through the day on tuesday, a few showers but they will be much fewer and further between then we have seen recently and the winds will be much lighter, too. so sunshine and is there, one of the best days this week. extent — 21 degrees. later in the day were clouded from the south—west with the arrival of some more rain overnight. all down to this area of low pressure during wednesday, that brings us a very unsettled stories mostly across england and wales. that is where we see the bulk of the rain on wednesday. the winds are also strengthening, particularly strong and gusty along the south coast of england. also, some heavy showers likely across parts of scotla nd showers likely across parts of scotland once again through the day on wednesday but i think a drier spot for northern england and northern ireland. by the time we get a thursday, again most of this i was will have eased. a slightly drier window in the weather on thursday, sunny spells, if you so is moving in from the north—west but many of us

will avoid them. it is about 1521 degrees on thursday but then things turn more unsettled as we look towards the end of the week. down to another area of low pressure moving in and that brings us some strong winds and some heavy rain by saturday. bye—bye.

i'm sharanjit leyl in singapore. the headlines: the uk calls for an inquiry into the hong kong violence. china tells it to back off china has just china hasjust made it clear china has just made it clear it will not accept what it calls british meddling. under the influence of hong kong's one—time colonial power these days is very limited. compensation demands and conspiracy theories — the death of billionaire sex offenderjeffrey epstein provokes more outrage. i'm kasia madera in london. also in the programme, floods and landslides in southern india kill almost 150 people, with hundreds of thousands taking shelter in relief camps.