this is bbc world news, the headlines... riot police in zimbabwe's capital, harare, have used tear gas and batons to disperse hundreds of anti— government protesters. the country is suffering severe food, electricity and water shortages. the us congresswoman rashida tlaib says she won't visit her family in the occupied west bank, despite israel lifting a ban on her. ms tlaib said conditions set for the trip were humiliating, and she couldn't accept being silenced. the chief executive of the hong kong—based airline cathay pacific has resigned over his company's response to the pro—democracy protests there. in the past week, cathay pacific has sacked four members of staff for involvement in rallies. and greenland has said it is open for business, but not for sale.

it's been reported that president trump might like to buy the arctic territory. at 10pm, clive myrie will be here with a full round up of the days news. will be here with a full first, stephen sackur interviews roger hallam, the co—founder of extinction rebellion, a movement dedicated to mass resistance and civil disobedience; how far are these climate rebels prepared to go? welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. back in 2015, the nations of the world made a formal commitment to act to keep global warming well below two degrees centigrade. so much for fine words — global greenhouse gas emissions are still rising. the data suggest the planet is warming at an alarming rate. what to do about it?

well, my guest today is roger hallam, co—founder of extinction rebellion, a movement dedicated to mass resistance and civil disobedience. how far are the climate rebels prepared to go? roger hallam, welcome to hardtalk. there is, and has been for years, no shortage of activist groups committed to fighting for the cause of fighting climate change. why the need now for extinction rebellion?

well, i think the reason is really straightforward — as millions of people around the world have realised that it comes to the point where something drastic has to happen, and nothing is happening. and that means that we have to start breaking the law in order to make change happen. you say nothing is happening. that seems to defy the truth that we see around us. not only are there heaps of different activist organisations working to further the ideas behind mitigating climate change, but governments around the world, as i mentioned in the introduction, have signed up to the paris agreement. they are committed to doing what it takes. well, there's a massive lie going on, which is things are happening. but they're not, and billions of people have realised that the governments have been lying for the last 30 years, and the elites have been lying, and the experts have been lying. and the reason they've been lying

is because they've said that carbon emissions will go down, and they're going to act to make sure they go down, but they haven't. they've gone up 60% since 1990, and they‘ re still going up, as you said. they went up 1.6% two years ago and 2.7% last year. so this was the decade when it was all supposed to stop happening, wasn't it? but it's not, so people are very angry. people are in a rage. people don't want their kids to die. you know, this is... there's no words to describe how serious it is. but i guess what i'm getting to is this point. what's different about you? i mean, we've had, for example, the leader of greenpeace in this studio. he's talked in very similar terms about the alarming rate of the warming of the planet. he's talked about the rise in emissions, he's talked about the concentration of c02 in the atmosphere getting worse, all of that stuff. i mean, so on the science,

there's no disagreement. but are you saying that groups like greenpeace and many, many others have fundamentally failed in their mission to convince the world that things need to change? yes. we have fundamentally failed. i mean, i've failed, other activists have failed, campaigners have failed — we've all failed. the fact of the matter is we're facing massive starvation in the next ten years, social collapse, and the possible extinction of human rights. it couldn't be worse. and that situation has come about over 30 years of failure — failure by the elites, failure by the governments, and failure by campaigners. so your message is entirely about failure, it's about negativity. it is in a way, i suppose, a howl of rage and despair. that's right, it is. and you think that is a message that the people of the world and the political leaders of the world are going to respond to?

yes, and the reason why is because, when people go through depression and rage, they come out and decide to do things. and extinction rebellion is the most successful climate change movement in the uk. 0nly set up a year ago, it's got 100,000 people signed up to it. it's mass civil disobedience. it's changed the conversation in this country, and the reason why it's done that is because it's dedicated to telling the truth. and the truth is we're in this beyond—terrible situation, and it's been brought about by the elites and the governments lying to people and misleading people over 30 years. but aren't you lying and misleading people too? because you're suggesting it's possible, for example in the united kingdom, where the group was founded, that we could in the uk move to net—zero carbon emissions by 2025. and that really isn't possible. of course it's possible.

anything is possible. it's a matter of whether there is the political will. 0k, let me rephrase the question. it's not possible within the framework of our capitalist economy without causing unimaginable damage to people's lives. well, the damage is imaginable, and it's proportionate, and it's necessary, because the alternative is a social collapse. that's the fundamental realisation people have come to. there's not a third option here, of carrying on business as usual. see, the problem is, and the reason i began by discussing where you sit within this sort of climate change and environmental movement, is that you're an outlier among so many people who agree, like you, that there is now a climate emergency. for example, the energy and climate intelligence unit, which sympathises with much of the message that you deliver, does not sympathise at all with some of the objectives and targets you lay out, because they say that, for example, the net—zero emissions by 2025 is technically,

economically and politically impossible. it has absolutely no chance of being fulfilled. well, they are wrong. you know, we can do whatever we like in our society. it's a matter of whether we're prepared to undertake the costs of that. the fact of the matter is, and this is the main point that extinction rebellion is trying to say, it's over, right, for civilisation. the reason it's over is because of the hard physics. we're not making a political point or an ideological point or, you know, trying to be awkward, or all the rest of it. we're simply saying that science is real. if the science is real, it means we're facing social collapse. the reason we're facing social collapse is because of mass starvation, and the reason we're going to have mass starvation is because of the collapse in our weather systems around the world. yes, but i'm talking about the degree to which you say action, the most radicalform

of action, has to be completed within the next six years, which is what you're saying. you're suggesting — you're setting a target which would mean people couldn't use combustion engine vehicles anymore. they couldn't fly anymore. they couldn't use gas to heat their homes anymore. and i put it to you that suggesting that is possible makes you a fantasist. it's like going to the doctor and the doctor says you've got cancer, and if you carry on as normal, you're definitely going to die, 0k? or you can try and change, but you might still die. those are the options for the human race now, if we're to believe the science. with respect, i don't think the science is saying that we're all going to die within six years. no, no, no, no. what the science is saying is, if there's not fundamental, major change in the structure of the global economy in the next ten years, then we're heading for catastrophe. and what that means is we're going to be heading for mass social

collapse and mass starvation. do you acknowledge that the message you're peddling, and it's full of past failure, deep negativity, the most urgent of alarms and emergencies for right now, do you accept that it can't be successful as a sort of movement without taking the public with you? the public is starting to get round to the idea that we're facing social collapse. but before april, before there were 1,200 arrests in the streets of london, in the biggest civil disobedience protest in british history, the british public didn't have any opinion on the climate emergency. afterwards, 67% of the british public believe — can agree there is one. you want to bring down the capitalist system as we know it. the capitalist system is going to be brought down by itself. the capitalist system is eating itself.

but your point about the... no, let me make this point clear, right? the capitalist system, the global system we're in here, is in the process of destroying itself, and it will destroy itself in the next ten years. the reason for that is because it's destroying the claimant. the climate is what is necessary to grow food. if you can't grow food, there'll be starvation and social collapse. now, the problem is people in the elites and people in the bbc and people in the governmental sector cannot get their heads around what's actually happening. the fact of the matter is, if you go out and talk to ordinary people in the street, they're aware of this. and that's why hundreds of thousands of people around the world are starting to take action — because they've lost faith. i understand — your perspective on the climate is that the emergency is here, it's now, and we have to respond. no, i don't think you have. see, that's the... i want to ask you about the degree to which see yourself as a revolutionary. is that how you would

characterise your ideology? there's a revolution coming anyway. it's irrelevant... i know what you're trying to do. you're trying to say there's these radical people. everything is ok, and they're trying to change stuff, and if they were not there being annoying, things could carry on. the fact of the matter is, if we don't change things, they're going to be ten times worse. and those are the two options. that's why i'm telling you about the analogy of the doctor. when you go and see a doctor, you don't blame the doctor. you don't accuse the doctor of being revolutionary, right? because the doctor is simply telling you what the science says, and the science is we're going to have social collapse, or we're going to try and do do something about it. with respect, science is different from politics. you're taking science and then you're putting a political interpretation of what it means, how it's having an impact. there is no political interpretation here. let me put to you some words by a former head of the metropolitan police counter—terror command, who has studied your movement. he says, "extinction rebellion is the breakdown of democracy and the state."

he regards you as akin to a dangerous terrorist organisation. well, you're telling me that you're going to take the public with you, when a former police chief is suggesting that you actually are anarchists who want to bring down the state and our democratic system. do you think the public‘s ready for that? the public is now aware that the elites are taking them to their death, because that's what the science is saying. the people... you stood in the recent election. the people that are betraying this country and this nation are the people in the elites, like the guy you've just mentioned, because they're refusing to accept the reality. and that's why there'll be mass social disturbances over the next year or two. you stood in the european parliamentary election as an independent with this message. in london, more than

2 million voters. you managed to garner 924, and you're telling me the public is marching alongside you. the 67% of the public know there is a climate emergency. if you know there's a climate emergency, it means that we're facing a situation more serious than we've ever had to deal with in the whole history. politicians are now talking of climate emergencies. making the leap from talking of a climate emergency to the mass civil disturbances, disruption, the bringing down of the state as we know it, that's something quite different. how far are you prepared to go? we've seen let's say hundreds, sometimes maybe even 1,000 or 2,000 of your extinction rebellion colleagues and activists on the streets of london, gluing themselves to buildings, gluing themselves to roads, disrupting traffic, once even disrupting public transport, which to many seemed a bit odd. but how far are you prepared to take this mass civil disobedience?

this 0ctober, thousands of people will come to the streets of london and they will stay in the streets of london. how long, i don't know, because it will be up to them. but you will see mass disturbances. it will be non—violent, it will be respectful, and it will be disruptive, and that is the methodology we're using. that's the method we're using. you say carefully, you say non—violent. in previous comments you have set of your protests, demonstrations, civil disobedience that, quote, some people may die. i wonder what you meant by that. because, in civil disobedience struggles over the last 150 years, when you challenge the elites, as gandhi says, you know, "first they ignore you, then they laugh at you and then they fight you." when they fight you, they tend to kill people, that's historically what happens and i'm just stating that as a fact, a sociological fact. when martin luther king used to do civil rights campaigns in 1960s, people got killed, and that's part of the process of political change.

you're carefully manipulating this, aren't you? you said, "people will see in the evening news 10—year—olds and grannies getting dragged off by the police." i believe you've made a particular point in extinction rebellion of teaching civil disobedience methods to young people, including schoolchildren. you want them on the front lines. why do you think schoolchildren and grannies are getting involved in putting themselves in harm's way to get arrested. why do you think that's happening? i'm asking you why you're encouraging them to put themselves in harm's way. i'm not encouraging anyone, 0k? what i'm involved in doing... you are actually encouraging them, encouraging children to... if grannies turn up to a meeting and they're in tears about what's happening to their grandchildren, it's not what i'm doing that makes them sit down in the road. it's the same with teenagers. teenagers are shitting themselves about what's happening for the future.

they've got another 50, 60, 70 years to live on this planet and by that time there could be rain only1 billion people left. that six billion people who have died in starvation or been slaughtered in war. the scale of that is beyond the imagination, isn't it? this is the biggest problem, the elites and the bbc and the conventional media has simply not grasped the enormity of what's happening. well, never mind the elites, it seems that many people even who were involved in the early days of extinction rebellion, like yourself, think you are going far too far. you haven't heard what i've said, and this is the fundamental problem. i'm listening very carefully. no, i don't think you are, you're listening but not emotionally connecting, and this is the problem. i've spent a year doing interviews like this with journalists, and journalists are not emotionally connecting with what's happening.

i'm talking about the slaughter, death and starvation of six billion people this century. that's what the science predicts, that's the trajectory we're on, and that requires absolutely desperate measures to stop it. and it's going to be painful. believe me, i'm engaging in the sense that i'm a citizen just as you are. i'm going to bejust as much prey to everything that's happening to our planet as you are. i have children... certainly, yeah. i don't know what age you are, but you're not going to be on this planet for much longer, neither am i. if you're a teenager, you can see this happening over the next 50, 60 years. i'm engaging with you, but i'm not sure you're engaging with me. why do you think so many people, even inside extinction rebellion, think that you've gone too far when you recently said you wanted to put drones up around heathrow to ensure that heathrow airport was closed down.

there were people inside your own organisation who said, "hang on a minute, that is not what we are about." you have to consider strategy in a way that you're not doing. the fact of the matter is, with the aviation industry and the whole carbon economy, all this activity is bringing us to destruction. there's people in extinction rebellion and other networks who, as an act of conscience, are going to be taking action against that. that's the same as it happened in the... i'll give you a quote from somebody, i don't know if you know him personally, but simon mckibbin, a lecturer at cambridge university, joined extinction rebellion and now left, specifically because he was horrified and upset by your plan to shut down heathrow with drones. he said, "threatening to fly drones into a busy airspace is a departure from the ethics of nonviolence. it threatens people and puts people at risk." he said, "i believe if this

is permitted to go ahead we'll lose the goodwill of the public." why do you persist with this? because we're facing mass starvation, and because people generally in society, particularly people in the elites, are not capable and are not empathising with that reality. will you put those drones up? myself? well, would you ? those in your movement and people that believe, like you, that it's justifiable. this is what's coming down the road. if the elites don't respond to non—violent action, then you know what's going to come next. people other than extinction rebellion will use violence, that's what's coming down the road. i'm speaking as a sociologist here, i'm not saying it's good or bad, what i'm saying is if you put a society under a massive amount of stress, and if you propose... will you... leave me a minute, let mejust finish this. if you tell the citizens of countries that the government is facilitating their death, than you can expect one thing,

particularly in a country like britain, where people don't put up with such nonsense, you can expect rebellion. will you, just answer the question, try to close down heathrow airport with drones? it hasn't been decided. i don't want to talk about specific things because that's not up to me, that's up to the people that are engaged in it. what i can say is this is what's coming down the line. doesn't it strike you that if you are serious about trying to lobby, pressure, change policy where it matters most, you'd be working in washington, dc, beijing, maybe moscow, may be riyadh, saudi arabia. it's very easy in democracies like britain to get people out on the streets, to glue yourselves to railings. it is ultimately a democracy, but in many parts of the world that matter most in this particular debate, there is no possibility of extinction rebellion.

most of the civil disobedience campaigns over the last hundreds of years have happened in poor authoritarian countries. the fact of the matter is, when people have had enough, they'll undertake sacrifice in order to bring change. that's the most effective way, according to the scholarship, of bringing about rapid change in a society — mass participation civil disobedience. when it comes to this mass participation, you've said thousands on the streets, do you really believe that with the methodology you've talked about in this interview, the mindset you bring to this, you are going to win the hearts and minds of the public? notjust in this country but publics around the world. i think it's inevitable. i think it's inevitable, yes. the major question now is have we left it too late? i'm mindful of international examples. australia had a recent election and the centre—left went into the election promising major cuts in greenhouse gas emissions over the next few years. the centre—right went into that

election saying, "n0, we're not because it will damage jobs, it will damage industry, and we're actually going to open up new coalfields across queensland, one of the biggest states in australia." the centre—right won. yes. so what's happening is the level of rage in countries is increasing exponentially, and it hasn't reached that critical mass in many countries yet but it's going to hit that critical mass very quickly and it will shock the elites, it will shock the government with its intensity. because a critical mass of people are starting to realise what's going on, which is the elites and the governments aren't actually going to do anything. they're not going to fulfil their primary responsibility, which is to look after the people. it will happen quickly, it will happen quickly. this isn't something that holds up gradually. historically... nothing's happening and then something happens, bang, and all the media think, "where did that come from?"

what i'm here to tell you today is this is coming, this is coming down the track. i hear your message and you accuse me of not emotionally engaging with you, and during the course of the conversation i've been thinking to myself that your message is so unrelentingly bleak and negative... it's not a message, right? when you go to a doctor and he tells you you've got cancer, that's not a message, it's the science. it's the science. but we began by agreeing there's various people across the environmental, green, climate change movements that agree about the science but come to different conclusions about the best means of delivering change. there are many scientists who actually won't just focus on the negative, the bleak and the dark, but say, "you know what, we human beings are making some progress, we are cutting emissions." for example, in the energy sector. i've just told you, it's total nonsense. it's total nonsense! you show no room for positivity and hope, no hope. when you go to the doctor the doctor

has a responsibility to tell you whether you've got cancer or not and whether it's terminal or not, hope doesn't come into it. it's a matter of scientific analysis. he shows you an x—ray of your lungs or whatever, right, it's a scientific reality. the arctic is melting, it is ice, it is warm, it is melting, it is gone. whether you're fearful about it, hopeful about it or you have a political problem with it, it is gone, it is going, that's the way the world is. it's a harsh thing, science doesn't have a sentimental thing about it. it's not a political thing, it's not a give—or—take thing. roger hallam, we'll have to leave it there thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thanks.

hello there and last time on weather for the week ahead we talked about how things could be settling down next week but that may not be the case flow next week but that may not be the case now and i have my details on that in a moment but let's look at the jet stream, last coming fast blowing air which drives our weather and at this time of the year we expected to be north of the uk but it is coming straight at us which has allowed this unseasonably deep area of low pressure to find which brought us wet and windy conditions here friday and will dominate the scene through the weekend. there will be more sunshine around for wales and england to the weekend but he remains blustery for all of us and there are further showers particularly for northern ireland and scotland and at times some of the showers may merge together to

form longer spells of rain. it could be happy and foundry and reigns will strengthen as well. particularly where we can see 55 mph gust later in the day. dry and sunny spells to be had throughout the day but still a chance of a shower and then sunshine and temperatures will fare better and then on friday 22 celsius the maximum but it will cloud over three southern counties on saturday evening and we have a weekly weather fund that is pushing up. the exact track of this, there is a bit of uncertainty that he could bring rain as far north as east anglia before it starts to work its way down towards the south and east clearing during the early hours of the morning. for sunday across england and wales it is largely dry and a chance of a few showers and showers tending to be through the northern half of the uk through northern ireland and scotland, closer to our area of low pressure. temperatures need teams at best and 21 celsius

down towards the south and east. into next week here is the area of low pressure drifting up towards the north and east and still influencing the weather but high—pressure sitting down towards the south and west. through monday we will really for england and wales a similar set up for england and wales a similar set up to sunday. a lot of dry weather around and a chance of a few showers but showers more frequent the northern ireland and for scotland. lighter wins so where we did get to see some sunshine, it should feel a little more pleasant with highs of 21 celsius. into monday night, and he say, our area of high pressure just starts to edge a little closer and the isoba rs just starts to edge a little closer and the isobars begin to open up which means the winds drop out. three tuesday, a bit of a quieter day on the cards and it will not be playing sailing, wall—to—wall blue skies but further showers particularly for wales and northern scotla nd particularly for wales and northern scotland that a good deal of dry weather elsewhere with the deals of sunshine and lighter winds a

different feel to the day. temperature is 14—21dc. back to the jet stream, the south of the we might uk and that we can cite doug slightly. at the moment the one that looks most likely is below pressure to have the greater influence in our weather is so if that happens it will be cooler, breezy air and at times wet. spells of rain, while our area of high pressure sits down towards the south and west. there is a chance that high—pressure could start to build from the southwest helping to settle things down and in the southern half of the uk at least where it should be drier and warmer. quite a lot to pray for the coming few days and stating to the forecast.

tonight at ten, tributes to the police officer killed while investigating a burglary in berkshire. pc andrew harper was 28 and married just four weeks ago. it's thought he was dragged along by a vehicle late last night. the murder of pc andrew harper is a mindless and a brutal crime, and obviously all our thoughts are with his family, his friends and his colleagues. in a sweeping investigation, police make inquiries at a local caravan site. we'll have the very latest. also tonight.... plans for british steel to be bought by the turkish military pension fund. the scottish government nationalises the ferguson shipyard on the clyde,