much purchase. stay with us. much, much purchase. stay with us. you can get more information on the bbc news website. let's keep talking to sirjohn about the state of opinions with reference to brexit. iam i am curious about the way the ramon side, they are concerned that the main voters will just side, they are concerned that the main voters willjust shift from labour to the lib dems, lib dems to labour. the opportunity for boris johnson to win an election, even though at the moment he is running at only 34% of the vote, way below what theresa may got in 2017, is because, and that is one of the legacies of the brexit impasse, and particularly of the election. the

liberal democrats suddenly rose. all of the increasing liberal democrat support such that they are now running at 18% has occurred amongst remain voters, and the principal source of that are people who voted labour in 2017. so the remain vote has got split as a result. so yes, those on the remain side of the fence have to think about actually even though it is not clear, that is what could come out of an election, if indeed the remain vote remains divided. some talk of an electoral pact, i think frankly deeply unlikely. 0ne pact, i think frankly deeply unlikely. one thing borisjohnson has to worry about, is that the labour party takes off in 2017, squash the liberal democrats or conversely the liberal democrats do. if the remain vote concentrates on one of those two parties life could be more for borisjohnson. perhaps more subtly a question to ask is will it be the case that in

constituencies where it is clear the liberal democrats are the principal challengers to the conservatives, will labour voters go, you know what, it might be better to vote for the local liberal democrat? plenty of that has happened in the past but equally and probably more crucially, would liberal democrat voters in marginal constituencies between labour and the conservatives, would they back labour who sits closer to them on the brexit issue and again cost boris johnson them on the brexit issue and again cost borisjohnson seats? them on the brexit issue and again cost boris johnson seats? and presumably a factor in that decision is people's attitudes towards mr corbyn, who has not polled particularly well generally in terms of how people see his leadership? yes, there is little doubt that although mr corbyn did himself a lot of good in 2017, not to say he became popular but markedly less popular, he is basically back to where he was and worse. so certainly jeremy corbyn doesn't look like he is an electoral advantage for the labour party, but whether or not that will persuade people to vote liberal democrat or not, that will remain much more broadly about their

attitudes towards brexit. can i ask you quickly about the brexit party, ukip exerted extreme influence over political discourse in the last ten yea rs political discourse in the last ten years but in the end its support collapsed. brexit party is exerting extreme influence on the conservative party, do you think its support will hold in the furnace of a general election? that i think is the $64,000 question. that hasn't been holding so far, it has been eroding during the course of the last six weeks but i guess we have to ask ourselves is there going to bea to ask ourselves is there going to be a crucial difference between a brexit party led by the charismatic nigel farage as compared with the ukip party that two years ago was being led by paul nuttall? but equally on the other side of the fence, the conservatives are going to be led by a charismatic politician called borisjohnson, rather than a politician who frankly found campaigning somewhat difficult, ie theresa may. so whether or not as a result boris johnson will be able to convince lee voters, yes, you do need to vote for

me, this is the only way to deliver brexit, or whether nigel farage saying, that is what they said last time and they haven't delivered, and by the way, borisjohnson doesn't wa nt to by the way, borisjohnson doesn't want to deliver a no—deal brexit, he still wa nts want to deliver a no—deal brexit, he still wants to get a deal and i don't trust the deal he will deliver, we should just be walking out. that's going to be the debate that takes place on the leave side and it is how leave voters react to that debate upon which at the end of the day i think borisjohnson‘s chances of winning this election will rest. it will be framed as johnson against corbyn, but perhaps the reality will be johnson johnson against corbyn, but perhaps the reality will bejohnson versus farage. they are keeping you busy, aren't they? nice to see you, sir john curtis, he helps us with every twist and turn of british politics here on bbc news. let's return to another disappointment for the new prime minister boris johnson. another disappointment for the new prime minister borisjohnson. he has failed to win the backing of enough mps to hold a snap election next month. that means he has faced four votes in the commons and has lost or at least been defeated in all four of them. i say defeated because on

this vote on a snap election he needed two thirds of mps to support him, and this was the result. he won it quite clearly, 298 votes to 56, the labour party abstained because they knew by abstaining that would scupper his chances of getting to two thirds. so four defeats out of four. this was the announcement in parliament. the ayes to the right 298, the noes to the left 56. so the ayes have it, but the house will be aware that the emotion has not obtained the majority required under the fixed—term parliaments act 2011. unlock. well, the prime minister was first to his feet after the result was announced. jeering.

first to his feet after the result was announced. jeeringi first to his feet after the result was announced. jeering. i note the leader of the opposition is once again not in his place in what i think is a slightly symbolic way, mr speaker. 48 hours ago he was leading the chance of stop the coup, let the people vote. now he's saying stop the election and stop the people from voting. i would think there is only one solution, i think he has become the first, to my knowledge, the first leader of the opposition in the democratic history of our country to refuse the invitation to an election, mr speaker. i can only speculate as to the reasons behind his hesitation, mr speaker, the obvious conclusion is i'm afraid that he does not think he will win. let's bring in vicki young, chief political correspondent, stilljust by the house of commons will stop we spoke about half an hour ago, i wonder what conversations you have

had since? i think some tory mps saying they are in danger of ending up saying they are in danger of ending up at the end of this week with nothing having been sorted, because for borisjohnson nothing having been sorted, because for boris johnson it nothing having been sorted, because for borisjohnson it hasn't gone according to plan. he hasn't managed to fend off those calls to rule out a no—deal brexit. he also has not managed to get the votes required to get a general election, so he's pretty much stuck. all he can do really is to mockjeremy corbyn, to say is the leader of the opposition refusing the chance of a general election, that is pretty much unheard of. but i don't know if they know where to go now. i'm sure they will have a plan. there is a possibility of course that they could bring in a short bill, saying it doesn't matter about the fixed—term parliaments act, we are going to have an election on october 15. the problem with that as one minister hasjust said 15. the problem with that as one minister has just said to me 15. the problem with that as one minister hasjust said to me is 15. the problem with that as one minister has just said to me is that that can be amended, and then you can add on all sorts of things to that, you can add on something saying you have to have votes for 16

to 17—year—olds, anything can be added to that, so it's really high risk. so how borisjohnson get to the point of a general election is ha rd to the point of a general election is hard to see from here, although i'm sure they of course will be working on it. he as we heard there is saying this is completely unsustainable, mps don't want him to govern, they are taking over the order paper, that's what happens in the house of commons, yet they won't allow him to have an election, so for the moment they are all a bit stuck. vicki, just for a moment help me step back from this a bit, the story has been rolling for over three years since the referendum. it is an extraordinary point that the uk finds itself in, isn't it, with a government with no ability to rule, no consensus on brexit and the rest of it. yes, and people will say of course people knew the country was divided over brexit, parliament is divided over brexit, parliament is divided over brexit, and really it is pushing the two main parties to breaking point. i don't think that's an exaggeration. we have seen the

troubles jeremy corbyn an exaggeration. we have seen the troublesjeremy corbyn has had trying to reconcile those in his party who are very determined to deliver brexit because they represent brexit constituencies, those who are on completely the opposite side of the argument who wa nt opposite side of the argument who want another referendum and who want to campaign to stay in. he has sort of credit of that line but it has been very tricky for him to keep together. they are still arguing now about whether to have a general election or not. then on the conservative party's side, for years theissue conservative party's side, for years the issue of europe has really threatened to tear them apart. i think people thought during the maastricht years it was bad enough but that is nothing compared to what has been going on here for the last few months in the conservative party, and really culminating last night with those more than 20 tory mps, some of whom have been in the house of commons for decades, being chucked out of the party, and i think the anguish that is causing and the dismay that is causing for some in the party, you know, that's not going to go away very quickly andi not going to go away very quickly and i think the repercussions of all of this, i think borisjohnson may be would hope if you could have an

election if you could win it, that might move his party on but at the moment he is stuck without being able to do that. british politics is wrestling with a conundrum that has found no answer to. some people would say reverse the result, remain. other people say a referendum was voted on, it went in favour of leaving. others say let's leave but have a soft brexit in the single market, but a lot of brexiteer say if you stay there, thatis brexiteer say if you stay there, that is brexit in name only, not a true brexit, we won't support it. that option struggles, which takes you to a harder brexit where you leave the single market and the customs union but the challenge there is how do you do that without compromising the border between northern ireland and the republic of ireland, and the eu wants reassu ra nces ireland, and the eu wants reassurances they will not be checks on that board even when the uk leaves the single market and the customs union, and so far the two sides have not been able to agree on

a version of the exit of the single market where that border does not have checks, so until one of those three options is resolved with a consensus in westminster, the uk remains stuck as it is, and the latest development in this extraordinary story is we have had this cross—party alliance of mps voting on this legislation to block a no—deal brexit in any circumstances and to force the prime minister to write to donald tusk and ask for another brexit delay, unless ask for another brexit delay, unless a deal is found by october 19. so how might things develop from here? the bbc‘s deputy political editor john pienaar has been taking this one on. wherever you stand, all you can do is watch, traditions of centuries discarded. chanting in the air, the argument has become

as bitter as yesterday full stop yesterday boris johnson as bitter as yesterday full stop yesterday borisjohnson lost as bitter as yesterday full stop yesterday boris johnson lost the first round. even some tory critics say he overplayed his hand, treating the rebels too harshly. he is on the losing side again today but now borisjohnson has set his sights on an early election and there is deadly serious game is on. mp5 are ploughing in a single day through the bill to block no deal and delay brexit. more than enough of them to beat the government. labour, snp and plaid cymru, lib dems and the tory outcasts. any different aims but a single plan, stop a no—deal brexit. so what does the rebel alliance once? to outlaw no deal obviously, and opposition leaders want an election after that mission is accomplished. meanwhile, in meetings, on social media, in the tea rooms and among the statutes, some outcast tory and labour mps

wa nt some outcast tory and labour mps want a brexit deal, others want a referendum. labour is promising one after an election may be on a new deal if there is one, otherwise a choice between no deal and remain. and that's what the lib dems want. they say stop brexit, and so does the snp who believe this crisis could be taking us closer to an independent scotland, the end of the union. now, down there, perhaps the most genteel debating chamber in the democratic world, well, things are about to turn ugly. the lords must pass the rebel bill too, in debates, in debates about debates, opposing sides doing all they can to support or resist the attempt to rule out a no—deal brexit and bind the primary step is by law. signs are it will be as passionate, may be as bad—tempered as bad—tempered as the upper house ever gets. what then? what is the prime minister's plan? well, on october 15 election if only the commons would let him but it

ta kes two the commons would let him but it takes two thirds to agree to an early election, 434 of them. we saw yesterday the numbers went there. what about labour? they look split. some close tojeremy corbyn say they would like to move within days to back an early election. others want to wait until they can force boris johnson to break his defining promise and seek a brexit extension in brussels, though he has promised we will leave comedy —— deal or no deal by october 31. humiliation. the outcome? anyone's guess. if this was a game it would be gripping but this is no game. now, let's talk about this bill brought by hilary benn of the opposition labour party, it has got through the house of commons, it seeks to stop a no—deal brexit in any circumstances. it now is in the upper house of parliament, the house of lords. it must pass there before becoming law, and here you have a live feed coming in from the house of lords. just to explain to some of you outside of the uk, in what we might call a democratic curiosity,

the lords are appointed rather than elected. there are over 800 of them. most of them have been appointed for life. a minority still inherit their titles, and yes, you heard some people within —— with influence within the uk's democratic processes have inherited that power, and we are seeing all sorts of procedural manoeuvres being brought forward in the house of lords. this is its website. members who back brexit have unleashed around 90 amendments. if you have the energy, you can read it all online. according to the rules, each of these are momentous to be debated and there is no provision for cutting debates short. that is widely seen as a filibuster operation to try to run down the clock so this bill can't become law for parliament is suspended on monday, because remember the reason everything has become so focused this week is that borisjohnson is going to prorogue parliament, he will close it from next week for several weeks, all of which means this debate has to conclude across

the weekend or before, and it's going to be a marathon. one lord, richard newby, was tweeting earlier, saying i am arriving in the lords with duvet, change of clothes and shaving kit. could take us a while, he said. some people are settling in for it, others are looking for ways to shorten the thing. this is an independent lord. the amendments just on the leader of the opposition of the house of lords has put forward a motion saying when the bill comes to us from the commons on thursday and friday, we need a guillotine in effect, we need to time—limit the debate so that we can pass this bill before the house of parliament is prorogue. we have to get it through before. so we normally in the house of lords can debate things for as long as we want to, whereas this time we are making an exception saying because the guillotines are imposed by the prorogation, by the government, we need to do this. the conservative party have put in 90 members just to the motion even before we get to the

bill. the votes we have had just now the government put forward one amendment. that was debated, there was a bit of filibustering and then a member of the house of lords stands up and says i demand this is now put to the vote. we then have to vote on the motion being put to the boat. so we go through the corridors, hundreds of lords, over 500 voting each time, then we have to go through all over again to vote on the motion. there are 90 moments, can you imagine, we have to do that 180 times. each boat takes a long time, we are going to be here all night, even before we get to the bill, and if they do the same thing with the bill, this willjust drag on and it is blatant filibustering, a complete weight of time —— a com plete a complete weight of time —— a complete waste of time. backed a christian and rob lowe from westminster, christian at least. christian, help me out on the issue of the house of lords, is it a real prospect that an unelected second chamber could skewer something being voted through by the elected house

of commons? i don't think it is a real possibility. i think it will be tight but the house of lords has leeway to extend its business into friday, saturday and sunday before the earliest opportunity boris johnson would have two prorogue parliament, which would be on monday. having said that, if you extend business into friday, you have to get a motion through and there would be loads of amendments to that as well. but we have seen lords today going into the house with sleeping bags and tins of food, so they are in for the long haul, and remember that the government, although it has lots of friends and allies in the house of lords, it doesn't have a majority there and i doesn't have a majority there and i do sense that the remainers are preparing for a fight. so no, i don't think it is going to mean that the bill is talked out. i think it is very likely at the end of this whole week when we get to perhaps saturday night that the bill would have got what we call royal assent and will effectively become law. rob watson is not a life peer, he is a life servant to these parts.|j

watson is not a life peer, he is a life servant to these parts. i was telling you though, christian, my wife would absolutely love being called lady florence! what do you expect in the lords tomorrow, because we don't often focus on discussions in the lords but it could be quite feisty tomorrow?m could be quite feisty tomorrow?m could be, but i am absolutely going to defer to your loan it opinion, my honourable christian, from earlier. i think you are right, could it be fascinating, could it be a fairly bloody by the rather genteel standards of the house of lords, yes, but i am kind of inclined more along your view that it is very difficult to imagine the house of lords ultimately standing in the way of this bill. they might have another role to fulfil of course because if the short piece of legislation setting aside the fixed—term parliaments act to get that legislation which would only need a small majority under the rules, they might be called upon again but it would be wholly irregular, wouldn't it, for the house of lords to stand in the way ofan house of lords to stand in the way of an election? you would think we we re of an election? you would think we were ina of an election? you would think we were in a real crisis if something

like that happen, oh my goodness, we are! you are right, but there are some crazy things you couldn't imagine happening over the next few weeks, involving some of the elected politicians, i won't name any names, but i don't see the house of lords interfering. look, when politicians in the house of commons, when boris johnson and the rest of them have decided when to have an election, the house of lords ain't going to get in the way. it is worth saying andi get in the way. it is worth saying and i have been saying it all night till i'm blue in the face. say it again then! it is worth emphasising just how irregular this all is, we are in the land of the unprecedented, for the parliament to ta ke unprecedented, for the parliament to take power from the executive, for there to be such a fundamental lack of trust in the prime minister and then to deny him an election. we are setting new precedents here that could be dangerous for the future of the british constitution. that is an argument that has been made. i can't remember which politician said it but i remember what he said, and that was on the night of the referendum in 2016, he said this is

going to be like a quasi revolution in the uk. partly because of the result, the nature of that referendum campaign, and because up until that point it had been the absolute cornerstone of the foreign and domestic policies of both the main parties, labourand and domestic policies of both the main parties, labour and the conservatives, to be part of the european union. so this whole process was always going to be an extraordinary strain on the system, that's what we've seen. we've seen a purge in the conservative party in the last few days, we've seen the main opposition labour party struggling, what should it be, should it be an out and out and he brexit party? this is the extraordinary strain that has put on the system, and something else. when i first became a political reporter a long time ago, the senior chap said nothing about written and british people is that people don't ca re british people is that people don't care about politics. well, i mean, they do now, they are out on the street and people are taking an interest in the way they haven't at all, and that is the brexit effect.

100,000 new registrations to vote in the last 48 hours, so people are definitely interested in politics. and another amazing story from one of our colleagues, he said he went into a of our colleagues, he said he went intoa pub of our colleagues, he said he went into a pub and saw someone using their laptop to watch, guess what, not videos of the latest pop songs, but it was the bbc's parliament channel. i mean, who knew? the bbc's parliament channel. that person needs to get out more! my kids will be watching the parliament channel soon, they won't be watching youtube! let's see this from the perspective of brussels, there has been a lot of shaking of heads over the sacking of the conservative rebels and the lamentable state of parliament at the moment, but i guess in some respects they will welcome an election, because there's no point having a negotiation, u nless no point having a negotiation, unless you're confident the government can get it through the house? i think that's true, and i think the way the european union looks of this now, i guess they look at the uk as a bit of a sort of

basket case engaged in some sort of political and collective mental breakdown, but i mean, look, what is it the european union's interest? the european union wants to keep their project going alive and well despite the shock of brexit, and it would also ideally like to have the break with britain to be as painless as possible all round, but i think they have been looking at first theresa may, then borisjohnson, and just at the broader political landscape in this country, and thinking, goodness, you know, how do you manage this? i guess both leaders of both major parties will say in that time honoured tradition, give me the tools and finish the job, because a prime minister who goes back to brussels with a 40 seat majority would have a much stronger hand. true, but i go back to what i said at the very start of this, about the three years ago a politician described this as a quasi revolutionary moment. the other thing i remember thinking revolutionary moment. the other thing i rememberthinking at revolutionary moment. the other thing i remember thinking at the

time in 2016, sitting in a bbc studio on a night pretty much like this was that the problem that was always going to happen was that the european union was never going to give britain a deal that was as good as or better than membership of the european union wants it left, and the trick over that three—year period was going to be is there some sort of meeting point in the middle? will the eu be able to give a bit, will the uk be able to give bit, and i think the story of the last three years is that they haven't really. it hasjust years is that they haven't really. it has just been years is that they haven't really. it hasjust been incredibly difficult to pull that off, and the uk has essentially, i mean is that europeans would say, at the end of the day the uk hasn't really been able to accept the idea that it won't have as good a relationship with the eu. just very quickly, if and when we get to an election, would you bet against another hung parliament? no, absolutely not, that's an easy one! put your money on rob watson's prediction. would you put money on that, ros?|j

on rob watson's prediction. would you put money on that, ros? i listen to rob every day and will definitely ta ke to rob every day and will definitely take his advice, whether i put hard cash in it we would have to see. thanks to you for the moment. a reminder, borisjohnson thanks to you for the moment. a reminder, boris johnson has thanks to you for the moment. a reminder, borisjohnson has had his second, third and fourth defeat in the commons as prime minister. he has so far faced four votes, and he has so far faced four votes, and he has lost all of them. the second and third consider this bill brought by hilary benn of the opposition labour party which seeks to do a couple of things, to rule out the possibility ofa things, to rule out the possibility of a no—deal brexit, and it is that by saying either there has to be a deal by 19th of october, or if there isn't, brexit needs to be pushed back to january 31 at least, and the uk cannot cleave with a no—deal brexit. so that was supported as soon as brexit. so that was supported as soon as the prime minister saw he had been defeated on that, boris johnson stood up and said i am tabling the proposition to have a general election on october 15. he needed two thirds of the house of commons to get that one through. he won the vote because labour

abstained, but they abstained because by doing that they knew he couldn't get two thirds, and as such that general election won't be happening, although by all accounts a general election will happen at some point relatively soon. now, while all of this is going on in westminster, brexit negotiations resumed today between the uk and the eu. here's the uk brexit negotiator, david frost, arriving in brussels. he was there to meet the eu's chief negotiator, michel barnier. remember, boris johnson wants negotiator, michel barnier. remember, borisjohnson wants the irish border backstop taken out of the current withdrawal deal. michel barnier says the eu has no intention of doing that and is still awaiting what could possibly replace it and ensure the uk leaves the single market of the eu but there is no ha rd market of the eu but there is no hard border on the island of ireland. remember, we don't know if the uk is offering anything new, but the uk is offering anything new, but the eu says it is still waiting. here is michel barnier talking after

the meeting. after my meeting with the meeting. after my meeting with the member state, now the parliament. i just want to tell you that the eu will remain in all circumstances, united vigilant and calm. damian grammaticas has been following all of this. the prime minister's brexit or eu advisor, david frost, was here having meetings in the european commission. nothing new was tabled there, in terms of proposals for that irish backstop. now, what we do understand from sources is that what appears to have been discussed is that the uk brought customs experts, they talked through some ideas but they really talk through some other things, which once issues like the fact the uk, borisjohnson which once issues like the fact the uk, boris johnson wants to dump some of the things theresa may agreed with the eu, particularly these are things to do with a free trade

agreement down the line, and these are provisions, things like level playing field provisions, so the eu wants guarantees of a level playing field on things like environmental rights, labour rights, if it is going to grant the uk access to its market in a free trade deal. the important thing about all of this is what is being discussed in there is what is being discussed in there is what borisjohnson what is being discussed in there is what boris johnson wants what is being discussed in there is what borisjohnson wants is what is being discussed in there is what boris johnson wants is to what is being discussed in there is what borisjohnson wants is to move backwards from where theresa may was, and those issues make it harder to solve the irish border question, not easier. so, to sum up, no new proposals from the uk today, and in fa ct proposals from the uk today, and in fact what looks to me like moving backwards not closer to an agreement. so no progress here at all, really. and just to agreement. so no progress here at all, really. andjust to pick agreement. so no progress here at all, really. and just to pick up on what damien was saying, some copy filed into the newsroom in london by our colleagues in the brussels newsroom , saying our colleagues in the brussels newsroom, saying michel barnier is reported to have told european diplomats that negotiations with london over the terms of britain's withdrawal are in a state of paralysis. he also advised the meeting with britain appeared intent

on reducing the level of ambition in the political declaration that will steer the next stage of the negotiations. let's speak to katia adler, joining us live. that doesn't really synchronise with what boris johnson has been saying about however things going. that's putting it politely. definitely the eu is being clear here and i have been told by a number of sources after that meeting between david frost today, boris johnson's that meeting between david frost today, borisjohnson's main eu envoy in brussels and the european commission, who said absolutely, there were talks about different sectors that would be affected by the irish border and so on but no new uk ideas, no uk proposal, not even a hint of one, i'm told, and thatis even a hint of one, i'm told, and that is leading eu leaders to really think well, boris johnson that is leading eu leaders to really think well, borisjohnson can't actually have a solution up his sleeve, despite all the rhetoric, because if he had a solution why hasn't he presented it to us by now, ask the eu. so there is, you know, i

would say possibly exasperation, but that indicates too much emotion. i think what is interesting here is a stark contrast between all the emotion we are seeing in the uk parliament at the moment, that heated debate, and the mood in brussels, which is more dispassionate. we are waiting, watching and drinking tea is what one diplomat put it to me, this is not because the eu is not interested , not because the eu is not interested, it is because they are hearing a lot of things. hearing about a possible general election, hearing about a possible new brexit extension, and by the way, if the uk we re extension, and by the way, if the uk were to ask for one, eu leaders are almost certainly guaranteed to say yes to one, but until these things actually materialise, the eu is not engaging in them because under eu law right now, whatever is going on in parliament, the eu's negotiating partner remains her majesty's government with boris johnson partner remains her majesty's government with borisjohnson at its helm, and with that being the case, and with the kind of interactions they have had with his team so far,

that leaves eu leaders convinced that leaves eu leaders convinced that for now