the headlines: it's been another dramatic day the british parliament. prime minister borisjohnson has suffered two major defeats. first mps backed a bill seeking to prevent a no—deal brexit, and then they denied his call for a general election. at least 20 people are known to have been killed after hurricane dorian hit the bahamas. the prime minister said parts of the island nation were left decimated. the storm's now heading towards the us coast and has been upgraded to a category 3 hurricane. and hong kong's chief executive says she will withdraw a proposal that's led to months of unrest. the extradition bill was the original trigger for anger, but now protest leaders say demonstrations will continue until other demands are met, including direct elections.

now on bbc news, it's time for hardtalk with stephen sackur. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. the number of migrants making the sea crossing from north africa to southern europe has fallen dramatically in the last two years. tragically, the number of deaths hasn't declined as fast, why? well, humanitarian activists blame the anti—migration policies of eu member states led by italy. my guest is carola rackete, who defied the italian authorities to land the rescue ship sea—watch 3 in sicily with 50 migrants onboard. to some, she's become humanitarian hero, but will her actions merely encourage more people smuggling and more suffering?

carola rackete, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much for inviting me. you have emerged from an extraordinary experience earlier this summer, which saw you captaining a rescue vessel in the mediterranean, picking up almost 50 or so migrants, ending up docking in italy in defiance of the italian authorities and then in detention for a while. how much of a toll has that experience taken on you? well i've first been volunteering with this organisation in 2016. it's called sea—watch. yeah, sea—watch.

and when you talk to the refugees who come from libya, a country at civil war, and you understand what they have been through, then risking a bit of your white privilege suddenly is very, very little. you were the captain of sea—watch 3, one of the vessels that has been in the mediterranean, monitoring — looking out for people in desperate straits out on the sea, often in dinghies which appear to be about to sink. when you signed up, were you aware of just how potentially controversial and difficult your mission was going to be? well, when i first started volunteering in 2016, it was a completely different situation. there was a lot of mutual support with the authorities, the european military, particularly the italian coastguard. but then in 2017, the first rescue vessel, the iuventa was arrested. and from that moment onwards,

particularly the captains, but all the crew understand that there is a risk of criminalisation, so the scene over the years has changed completely. so when you picked up the — i believe it was a0 or 50 migrants who were in deep trouble in the sea about a0 or 50 miles off the coast of libya, was immediately in your mind that you had a problem here and you had to think very carefully about what to do? well, we were very aware of the difficult political situation. as you mentioned, this is a situation which has been growing over the years. so there's a lack of solidarity within the european union to distribute the people who arrive over the sea route, and due to the dublin iii system, that burden is carried by the states

of the southern border of italy, and that is a situation which is caused by the states in central europe and northern europe because they don't want to change the rules. no, and we will get to the politics of this in some detail later. butjust paint a picture for me of what condition the people were in that you came across on sea—watch 3 in early june, 2019? who were they, what condition? yeah, there were 53 people on a rubber dinghy, which we know from experience is very unstable, i have seen one sink within minutes once they deflate. none of the people had life jackets. there were two infants, pregnant women, no navigation equipment, no food and no water. so under by the maritime law, that is a distressed case because you can be sure these people cannot arrive to any port. and were they begging

you to take them onboard your vessel, the sea—watch? yeah, they were definitely aware of how dangerous the situation was. people were terrified onboard these boats. they know they can break, they can capsize, sometimes people fall overboard. in 2017, for example, i rescued a two—year—old boy whose father had fallen overboard three or four hours ago. you mentioned the infants and pregnant women, was it predominantly young men or was it a real mix of people? i think in this case we had about ten women and children and the rest were men. right. you of course had a choice to make at the beginning. you were much closer to the libyan coastline than you were to anywhere in southern europe, i believe roughly a0 miles off the coast of libya.

the libyan coast guard is now committed, thanks to eu support, eu finance, equipment and training, they are committed to clamping down on the people smuggling and they want all of those who attempt to cross to be returned to libya. why didn't you return them to libya? well, it would be breaking the geneva convention about the non—refoulement because we know that these people are suffering human rights abuses in libya, also in the detention centres. this could be kidnapping, torture, forced labour. but the eu are partners of the libyan coast guard. yeah. libya is working with the eu. are you saying you not for one second would trust the libyans to look after the basic human needs of these people? not for one second. we have a lot of experience with them and these human rights abuses are well documented by the eu as well. they know exactly what they are doing and who they are financing. the libyan coast guard has evolved from various warlords, which have just taken control of the boats which existed in 2015—2016. they are now financed, but they are also complicit

and that is known in many human rights abuses and there have been cases where the coastguard disrupted our rescues leading to the death of people in the rescue scene. now, as we've established, even in the course of this conversation, you were very well aware of the political context in italy but nonetheless you decided to take the sea—watch towards southern italy and towards sicily. you ultimately spent days and days floating around, i guess, beginning a dialogue with the italians, or at least asking them for permission to land — enter italian territorial waters and land your passengers. mm—hm. now, what did the italian say to you? well, the italians said they were not responsible for this rescue case because it had been carried out in the libyan‘s air zone. which is true.

which is true, which means the libyans have to co—ordinate it. however, the libya doesn't have any port of safety, and that also has been stated clearly by the eu commission. so we would be breaking the law bringing people to libya, so when we requested italy, after two days, there was a german city — a medium—sized city — which offered to take all the people and even send a bus to sicily to pick them up. but unfortunately, both the interior ministry of germany and of italy didn't want to agree on this solution. but the law is the law, passed by a democratic government in italy, and you were well aware of the law. that is, it's illegalfor a rescue vessel such as yours to enter italian territorial waters and still more illegal to attempt to land at an italian port, and yet, in the end, you did that. why? well, two laws are in conflict with each other here. there's the maritime law, which says that you have a duty to rescue, and your rescue is completed when you bring people to a port of safety, and then you have the national law,

in this case, which prohibits the entry. so we were waiting in order not to break the law. and were hoping for political solution, such as offered by this german city, so that people could disembark outside the territorial waters and that would have prevented the whole scenario which followed. and while you were waiting, i was wonder what conditions the passengers, the migrants on your ship were in and how much pressure did you feel to do something to get them off the ship? well, the situation was worsening every day, particularly the psychological situation. so nearly all these people have been in different types of prison camps or have suffered from human rights abuses as already mentioned, some suffered from post—traumatic stress disorders, some suffered from torture wounds which hadn't been treated properly

because they didn't have access to healthcare and the pure worry of not knowing where your future leads you and what will happen led to the fact that people were severely disturbed and the doctors in the end, my medical team, in the end said that they couldn't guarantee the safety of the people anymore. obviously you and your team spoke to some length of what was roughly in effect two weeks of this journey, you heard some of their stories. where were they from? did you form an opinion of whether these people are largely economic migrants or people seeking asylum because they were fleeing conflict and persecution? they came from various sub—saharan countries, most of them. and i think it's very interesting to think about why these people migrate and i think it largely has to do as well with the environmental breakdown, which industrial nations are causing. so most people like to stay at home, really, if they can. but the economic, socio—economic conditions are so difficult in many countries that people have no choice

other than to go somewhere else. that's yourjudgement, that doesn't necessarily match what international law constitutes refugee status, but we'll get back to that in a minute. i just want to finish the amazing story ofjune, because after not getting permission to land in italy, you, in the end, took the law into your own hands and piloted your own vessel into the sicilian port, against the wishes of the authorities. you slammed into what appears to have been some sort of police boat, squeezing it, according to the italians, against the harbour and they say in a very dangerous fashion. it does seem in the end you were pushing the very edge of safety, and responsible behaviour in your decision to land your boat? well, there's quite a few videos of the scene which everyone is invited to watch, you can see the boat moves very slow.

the people at risk really were the refugees who we had onboard. and the italian authorities had... ..well, 17 days to resolve the situation and they didn't. well, they say, and indeed they charged you with illegally entering their territorial waters and also for endangering the safety of an italian police vessel. and they charged you and for a while, it looked as though you were going to stay under arrest — house arrest in italy for some time. at that point, were you beginning to regret what you'd done? no. i certainly didn't regret what happened. i regret that there was such a lack of solidarity in the european union. i mean, it'sjust a,000 people who arrived from this route this year to italy. so i really regret that we do have that situation at all and i think it's outrageous that we cannot give

people access to their human rights. well, isn't the very point that you've just made that there are now so many fewer people making the crossing and ending up in italy or indeed malta or southern spain from the sea route, doesn't that make the point that mr salvini, who is the sort of the poster politician for a new, tough, anti—migrant policy in southern europe, his policy is working as a deterrent? it has deterred many, many would—be migrants were making that highly dangerous crossing. well we don't know that because we haven't spoken to them, i guess. but they're just not coming, that's the point. yeah, the question is why they are not coming. i mean, the european union is building a border — they're doing an externalisation of that border, already far south of libya. so they're already deterring people from entering into there. they are also pulling back via the libyan coast guard, people to a country at civil war

and the death numbers are as high as they have never been, in the relative death numbers. well, yeah, they're not as high in absolute terms. but the number of deaths of migrants at sea is proportionately higher now, as a proportion of the overall number making the crossing than it was in 2015—2016, when the overall figures were far higher, but let's get back to the figures, because they're quite extraordinary. arrivals by sea to italy have dropped from 8a% from the 2018 figure, 97% down from the 2017 figure. so, right now, as we speak today, italy, with its tough stand, has ensured, let us be honest, that thousands of people who were going to attempt to make that crossing and would have put themselves at risk are no longer doing so. that should be celebrated, shouldn't it? i am not sure that the credit here goes to italians. it is the whole of the european union which has

withdrawn their rescue vessels, and which is complicit in the libyan coastguard pulling back these people, as i said, to a country at civil war. would you not accept — and you are right, it's notjust italy, but spain and malta and greece as well, all of whom now have a real tough stand on not wanting to let these vessels land, actually launching criminal prosecutions of some of the rescue mission workers such as yourself. this has had a real effect on the mentality of people who might have made the crossing, and you surely don't want tens and tens of thousands of people to make that crossing, do you? i think we have to see the fact that migration, as such, isjust a fact of human life. i mean, everyone outside africa has come from africa at some time, right? the point is that due to the whole, say, history of colonisation, the large inequalities

between the global poor and the global rich, there is a lot of reasons for people to migrate, and there is a lot of injustice between people around the globe, and as long as we don't resolve that, people willjust migrate, and particularly due to the climate breakdown. we will get to the climate breakdown and how important you feel that is as a push factor away from sub—saharan africa in particular, but let'sjust stick with this notion of yours that migration is just a fact of life. i come back to the figures which suggest actually there has been a fundamental change in the last couple of years, and i also come to the fact that some players in the mediterranean are quite clear that the rescue missions that the private humanitarian organisations such as sea—watch run are actually counter—productive. the head of the eu border agency said, frontex, fabrice leggeri, aid this a couple of years ago when he was looking at what groups

like yours were doing — he said that rescue operations need re—evaluating. he said that ngos are, ineffectively, cooperating with national security agencies, and he said ngos who rescue people in the sea off libya are actually encouraging the people traffickers who profit from dangerous mediterranean crossings. yeah, and such accusations have been also mentioned against the italian coastguard, when they were rescuing during mare nostrum. .. which they no longer do. ..which they no longer do, but it was the absolutely same accusations. in the week that sea—watch started their operation, 1,000 people drowned, so it was first — first, people were trying to cross the sea and then the civil ngos were a reply to that. it wasn't the other way around. but address frontex‘s testimony — they've had officials

in north africa who have spoken, for example, to the people smugglers, the traffickers in libya who have said, who have openly acknowledged putting people onto these dinghies, which are clearly not seaworthy, not capable of travelling the 200 miles to southern italy, and they say, "well, we don't care if they can't make the 200—mile crossing." all they need to do is get 20 or 30 miles offshore, out of libyan territorial waters and we know that these ngos will pick them up and take them to italy. you are, in a sense, offering a taxi service and the people smugglers are exploiting you. well, they can also look at the numbers from this year where, for example, on the days where there were rescue ships out there, on average, there were 33 people leaving from the shore, and on the other days, when there was no ships, the number was 35. i just wonder if you feel you are not being a little patronising, not least to the libyans.

throughout this interview, you have said that you don't trust a word the libyans say, that you think the conditions inside libya and the detention centres for migrants are appalling and inhumane and contravene international law. the libyans respond by saying that you, ngos, do not respect them and that you won't work with them and that you are consistently undermining their activities. well, we do co—operate to the degree, which is complicit with the law, but we can, of course, not accept instructions such as bringing people back to libya, because that will be a non—compliance with the geneva convention on refugee rights. you have mentioned the international conventions concerning migrants at several points in this interview. i just wonder from your experience, yourself, working with sea—watch for some time, whether you truly believe that most of the people crossing from north africa, attempting to get into southern europe are genuinely fleeing persecution and conflict or whether so many of them are actually, for very

understandable reasons, economic migrants? well, they all come from libya and it is a country... most of them are not libyans. libya is a country at civil war, so, in my position, i am the sea captain, right, and i see the boat in distress and it really is not my position to judge how and why someone came here, and if you wanted to know that, i think it would be interesting if you were talking to these people and then you could ask them why they are travelling and they could give you the reasons. but you see, you say "it's not my position to judge," and i well understand that, but it seems to me, at points, you dojudge. for example, you have said to me or many of these people who have come through libya from sub—saharan africa, they are what you call ‘climate refugees‘. you have said in the past that

europe has a duty to accept these climate refugees. but, i mean, that may well be your moral, ethical position, but that doesn't match international law and it certainly doesn't mean that they are eligible for refugee status. yeah, i mean, international law or law, as such, is an interesting thing because it is always formed by the society, right, and it can change. you see there were times where, for example, slavery was legal, women didn't have a right to vote. it doesn't mean it is morally right and climate breakdown as such is still a fairly new topic, if you want. so, it is still not included in the un refugee rights. no, it's not. but it doesn't mean that it's not going to happen in the future. it also doesn't mean it's morally right... well, sorry to interrupt. i am just exercised by this, because if you are to take your logic to its conclusion, you would, and other ngos, would recognise the obligation to help these — what you call climate refugees — and there could be millions of them, literally millions of them, seeking over the next ten, 20, 30 years, to enter europe. are you saying that europe has

a legal, as well as moral obligation to take all of these migrants? well, we have to look at the facts, which are first and foremost, that most people, when they migrate, they go very, very short distances because, especially the global poor, just don't have the money to move very far. so when we are thinking of the facts of climate breakdown, like changes in precipitation, crop failures, famine, most people will starve very close to their homes. they are not going to come here. you know, the percentage of people who cross a border is very low, most then stay in neighbouring countries. so, really, we are talking about possibly or much — yeah, likely, higher numbers than we have now, but most people who will be displaced — think of wales, you have coastal erosion, for example. some people will have to move homes and so on, but they are not going to canada. they are going a short distance, they're going... yes, your view of the moral ethical obligations is very different from that of most people in europe. do you recognise that in the end, democracy has to be acknowledged

and recognised and respected in europe? according to the pew research center, 71% of italians want fewer immigrants or no immigrants at all — very different from your perspective. yeah, and i think that opinion probably comes from, as i already pointed out several times, the lack of solidarity within europe, when we are talking about receiving these people. people have a solidarity, they have a solidarity to what they see as defending their national interest. yeah, and when we see, for example, people in germany, which have been surveyed, i think injune, then 65% said they would like to welcome people. so there is differences within the european union, and i certainly understand that italy was bearing a far—too—great share of the responsibility within the eu. final thing — will you go back to sea again and conduct more rescue missions? yes, i certainly would. however, i am a nature

conservationist, so i might work on other issues in the future. carola rackete, it has been a pleasure to have you on hardtalk. thank you very much indeed. thank you, stephen. hi there. many northern areas were quite chilly on wednesday. it was a very windy day, gusts of 50, close to 60 mph across the north and the west of the uk. but today, it's not looking that bad. we've got pressure building, so fewer showers around. although it will still be quite breezy, it will be less windy than what we had on wednesday. there's wednesday's low, slowly pushing off into scandinavia, high pressure building

in from the south—west. you'll notice isobars still quite close together across the north—west, and a warm front moving in. that will introduce thicker cloud with showery bursts of rain for scotland and northern ireland and that will spread its way southwards as it fizzles out into the rest of scotland and northern england, perhaps the midlands. but it will introduce something a little less cold into the north—west corner of the country. so we'll see 15—17 degrees here, but elsewhere plenty of sunshine, highs around 18 to maybe 20 degrees. so that's how thursday is looking. through thursday night, high pressure continues to bring drier weather for england and wales, and we see the weather system pushing into the north—west, a band of rain slowly spilling its way south—eastwards. it will also turn fairly breezy, even windy once again. as the temperatures range between 9—12 degrees to start friday morning. area of low pressure, then, to the north of the uk will introduce this band of rain which will continue to spread its way into central and southern areas as friday wears on. behind it, blustery showers, but also some sunny spells. so a rather cloudy day, i think, for much of england and wales. outbreaks of rain which will eventually become confined to more

southern counties of england by the end of the afternoon. elsewhere, it could be quite bright. there's some good sunny spells, a few blustery showers in the north—west, and those temperatures still below the seasonal average, 1a—18 degrees. that cold front slips its way southwards into the near continent. it'll be quite a chilly start to saturday, but high pressure builds in again, notjust for saturday but also for sunday, so we could be looking at quite a bit of dry and sunny weather for the weekend. for saturday, still quite breezy down the east coast as that low pressure clears away, maybe just one or two showers here. but for most, it's dry, with lengthy sunny spells, a little bit of cloud building in the north and west. and on the fairly cool side in the north, 1a—16 degrees. 18 or 19 in the south. there's a chilly start to sunday, as well, under those clear skies, but high pressure again dominating the scene for most. weather fronts trying to push into the north—west on sunday could introduce more cloud to the hebrides, the northern isles, maybe northern ireland. but for much of the country,

again, lighter winds, thanks to high pressure, sunny spells and a little bit of cloud, and those temperatures range from 15—18 degrees.

i guess.

this is the briefing. i'm ben bland. our top story. in britain, the bill to stop a no—deal brexit makes its way through parliament as the eu's negotiator says negotiations are in paralysis. officials in the bahamas say at least 20 people were killed by hurricane dorian. the storm strengthens as it moves along the us east coast. hong kong protesters say they're not done yet, despite the withdrawal of the extradition bill that sparked months of unrest. in business, uk recession fears grow as manufacturers warn