later this thursday. thank you very much, mariko oi. i'm kasia madera with bbc world news. our top story: president trump has sacked john bolton, his third national security adviser in three years. the president said he disagreed strongly with many of bolton's suggestions and that he was no longer needed. benjamin neta nyahu has promised to extend israeli sovereignty over the jordan valley if he's re—elected next week. the palestinians say the move would ‘bury any chance of peace for 100 years‘. and this video of an american adventurer becoming the first person to reach the deepest places in all five of the earth's oceans has caught people's attention on our website. in his finaldive, victor vescovo used a submersible to travel 5.5 kilometers down to the bottom of the arctic ocean. that's all. stay with bbc world news.

now on bbc news, it's hardtalk with stephen sackur. welcome to hardtalk. i'm at stephen sackur. —— i'm stephen sackur. indonesia has big ambitions to be a 21st—century regional superpower. it has the right kind of assets in terms of population, natural resources, and strategic position, but there are clouds on the horizon. not least in west papua, the vast territory incorporated into indonesia after the end of dutch colonial rule. for five decades, jakarta has suppressed a papuan independence movement. in recent months tensions have flared into violence. my guest is benny wenda, exiled leader of the west papuan liberation movement. can he take onjakarta and win?

benny wenda, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. last month we saw violent clashes between indonesian security personnel and civilians in west papua. there were a number of deaths, some very serious clashes. now the indonesians say the situation is now calm and order has been restored. you are in constant contact with west papua, what do you believe is going on?

this situation escalated from jakarta to west papua because of, you know, the indonesian police and military and local civilians came to west papua student dormitories in surabaya and accused them of the racist word, monkey, dog, and pig. that spark escalated across indonesia, across west papua. the papuans, if you call us monkey, then go home, we want to ask an independent referendum. then peacefully start with, peacefully from across west papua, all over west papua, then the indonesian response is killing six people a place called deiyai. that is the start of killing by the indonesian military. it's a complicated story, though, isn't it? you have said that the spark that

lit the flames of violence was racism directed towards young papuan students studying in an indonesian college. the indonesian authorities point to other sparks and they go back of course to last december when, as i understand it, separatist millitants, armed, murdered a group of workers construct a new road in west papua. —— constructing a new road in west papua. and those were separatists, presumably allies of your own. this is not new for west papua. indonesia always creates the violence. one example that — back in 2002, the indonesian military intelligence, one of the american citizens is killed near the grasberg freeport mine and then blamed on west papuan separatists.

it exactly — the number of dead — the event that the pattern is the same. well, hang on, it's important to get down to basics here. there are many allegations that armed militants working as papuan separatists, and you of course are the exiled leader of the main umbrella separatist organisation, they have conducted operations and they are deemed to have been responsible for the murder of those construction workers last december. yes or no? that — until today... we still — as soon as that happened i already make a statement. this is unacceptable and this is the propaganda done by indonesia, because... but it's no good just describing it as propaganda. do you accept that some papuan separatists are not only armed but are using those arms to kill other indonesians, particular those, for example, working for example,

particular those working, for example, on the big construction projects inside papua? i've already stated that those people, at a human level, i condemn what happened. but this is the history of what is happening now. we always — under my leadership we always maintain peacefully, come out on the street, demonstrating, end of the violence, end of colonialism. what's happening now, indonesia came illegally to our country, illegally occupied. since then indonesia, 500,000 men, women, children have been killed. up to now. indonesia brought the violence. we want to live peacefully. this is important to go through step—by—step, so let me stop you. are you claiming, i think you're claiming, halfa million of you fellow west papuans have been killed by the indonesian government, its security forces, since jakarta took responsibility for west papua in the 1960s. yes. 1963.

where is your evidence for that figure of 500,000 dead? we have a number of evidence coming out. amnesty international also investigated. half a million were killed. that is why i also say to the indonesian government, if you claim there is no genocide, there is no genocide — then why do they not allow journalists? journalists have been banned for 50 years. amnesty international are banned, the international peace brigade, even the bbc, even abc, all the internationaljournalists are totally banned. that's why indonesia gets away with impunity. so if you are alleging, and it is only an allegation, and as you say, international journalists and human rights workers find it very hard to work in west papua, if you are alleging, your word, a genocide, are you also saying that you believe

armed struggle is entirely legitimate? is that your position today? we never use the armed struggle. we always maintain peacefully. because you cannot win the asia—pacific, west papua as a militarised zone. when we use the armed struggle... indonesia can legitimately send out 10,000 of the military. that's why under my leadership we come out peacefully. since 2000, we had a congress, 2000, they came out peacefully and engaged with jakarta to solve the west papua issue through the international mechanism which is called a referendum. but if i may, the point is you claim to be the unified leader of the liberation movement for west papua, but it pattern isn't true. the other long—standing separatist organisation, the 0pm, doesn't recognise, it seems to me, your leadership.

the 0pm leader, jeffrey bomanak, said recently that his organisation and its armed wing, the tpnpb, reject and deny the claims and political statements made about the merger by you. he doesn't accept your authority. and also it is clear that the tpnpb continue their armed struggle. we — this isjust a number of people, an individual claim. but we — in 50 years we never became united. but this is 50 years. the last five years supported by the vanuatu government, the first time in our history, we became united. we have three politicalfactions... the fact is, mr wenda, you're not united, because one of the key factions that you claim to represent says you do not represent them. they are part of the liberation movement. 0pm is the name of the organisation. every west papuan is 0pm.

but now the political organisation we are united under the united —— the united liberation movement. by the chair of the united liberation movement. let us talk with deep emotions here. it's important for people to understand where you come from. obviously you were born in west papua. in actually quite a remote place, believe, but your family suffered a great deal as the indonesian military forces moved in. there was a lot of violence. and your family suffered from some of that. you yourself were educated in a school which was largely indonesian. and i know you claim you suffered serial racist incidents at school. you then, as a young man, became an activist against indonesian authority. they accuse you of leading a campaign of arson and violence. they put you on trial. were you a young millitant committed to violence? i — why i have to fight this injustice happening in west papua, because i'm myself became a witness.

i grow up, in the bush, five years, my auntie was raped in front of my eyes, my mother was beaten up in front — i could not do anything as a young boy. and then i, at the time i went to school, i studied, and people were talking about discrimination. i've myself have faced discrimination in this school, even in the campus. so that's why when i graduate... indonesia educated me to understand about that struggle. they liberated themselves from the dutch colonialism. so then they, what they are doing towards west papua is colonialism. it's not liberating west papua. so that is direct colonialism. that's why they look at west papua differently. and the — this discrimination, the racism, i don't want that happening in the next generation. i want to end it. that's why when i graduate of political science, i came out to lead peacefully on the street, 2000.

that answer was very telling in many ways, and indeed moving. but you didn't answer my question. were you, was young man, and i dare say are you today actually committed to violence because, according to your own version of events, so much violence has been perpetrated against your people that you seem to believe violence has to be part of your solution. i committed, since 2000, when i became a leader of the koteka tribal assembly, i declared the peaceful way is the only weapon we have. because 1970, 1960, iam not denying, there is an elder in the bush, they defend themselves. it's like a home guard. someone come to beat you up or kill you or beat your woman or your daughter has been raped in front of you, you can't let that happen. they have to defend. also rape. so i think in that sene.

but that is already, the revolutionary era is already ended. but now we want to democratically transition for west papua. we will get your political proposals injust a moment. but your description that all of the violence is in the past is not shared by the indonesian government. jakarta's co—ordinating ministerfor political, legal, and security affairs said just the other day that "i believe benny wenda took part in the violent conspiracy that indonesians believe they saw last month when so many young people in different towns across west papua attacked the security forces." are you today conspiring against the indonesian security forces?

so now my question, who started, the provocationin surabaya? i like simple answers to simple questions. are you actively conspiring with arms young people in your territory, west papua, today, to attack the indonesian security forces? no, i have not advised my people to attack indonesian security forces. i maintain as peacefully as possible. that's why the united liberation movement, from the beginning, when i am from zero to maintain peacefully, call a referendum. indonesia don't like call a referendum because they feel that west papua is part of the territory. but indonesia knows that they illegally occupied our country and that is why the root problem, it is illegal. but can you see where the indonesian authorities would be very suspicious of you? they charge you all those years ago when you are in your late 20s with arson and violence. you escaped before the trial could be completed. but even today, looking at what you say, there is reason to suspect you.

for example, here's a statement from you, again, very recently in the wake of this violence. "politically and militarily we are united, the international community can see without doubt we are ready to take over our country." "indonesia cannot stigmatise us as separatists or criminals anymore, we are a legitimate, unified, military and political state in waiting." if i was an indonesian minister i would regard that as quite simply an invitation to your people to undertake an armed uprising. no, i called my people, because all those years indonesia has stigmatised those people. they are criminal. they are stigmatised.

no, we are the legitimate — we are ready to engage with the world, engage with indonesia, that's why you can't stigmatise. that era is finished. we want to tell the world we are ready. so, because we are responsible... militarily, you said. no, militarily we are not engaged. militarily, politically, we are ready to show we are confident in.. we want the world to trust us. you can trust indonesia all those years, but now, no, just us because this is our territory. i am a leader of the independence movement for west papua and i'm ready to engage with the world and welcome any assistance to support our struggle for piece. that is our standing point. the indonesian government sees you as potentially dangerous, anti—state, anti—government actors. they claim some associations with islamic state. are you aware about? 95% of west papua is christian,

we are not enemies with anybody. my — against this is that indonesia's system opposed to my people. we believe in peace with ordinary people, particularly migrants coming in because we know those people are coming ? looking in because we know those people are coming, looking for a better life. west papua in independence, we are more welcome. you say that you do want engagement with the international community and indeed with indonesia, the state, itself. let's talk about your commitment to engagement. the president of indonesia, joko widodo, is a man who has repeatedly visited west papua and talked about the importance he gives to developing west papua. he says we will continue to maintain the honour of all the papuan people. he won 90% of the vote in west papua, he is unlike previous military leaders in indonesia, appearing to care. why don't you give

him an olive branch? yes, many presidents visit west papua from time to time. it never changes. you cannot develop west papua or build a bridge or seven story or bring development. but people you are killing. he was the development for? while the people are being killed, who can enjoy those developments? people in west papua are not asking for development, they are asking a simple question. hold the referendum, we want peace and harmony in our own land, that is what they are asking. you raise an interesting dilemma there, what is more important to the papuan people? getting great prosperity and development in your vast

territory, or, independence and your own political objectives? because it seems to me poverty is rife in west papua. we've seen malnutrition, we've seen disease killed children in a way that is a rare and the rest of the world. you need material development, and that is what the indonesian president is offering you. isn't that rather important? indonesia, look, west papua is a very rich country on this planet. my people are — because they suffer because indonesian military operations take place in west papua. this is 50 years, 58 years, under the indonesian illegal occupation... sorry to interrupt, but if they are offering to build tra ns—territory highways, advanced expense, if they are asking you to open up the resource extraction industries, and they say much of the profit from that will be invested in west papua, are these not objectives you can share?

no. why they build the roads? they are cutting down the trees. west papua has the third — second largest rainforest in this planet. they build that road in order to bring the military, cutting down the trees, cutting down our forests and mountain. the forests are sacred, and the mountains are sacred. now these multinational companies, logging and mining companies want to destroy our way of life, our environment. this is why we are saying the people of west papua are not asking for development, they are asking for a referendum on independence. so, to be clear, if you were to get your way and if there were to be a referendum, and you, as the figurehead of the movement for independence were to become the leader of an independent west papua, you are saying

to your own people and to the world that you would hold all the economic development. the gold mining, the road development, the mineral extraction, although it would be halted. the people, they may be free, but they might also be very, very poor. look, we want to settle with what we've got. but what we are asking now, we want to run our own affairs. that is a simple question we are asking the indonesian government. because we have everything, but we want to share. the west papuan independence is very unique, and as a country we want to create a green state in the world. we don't want to destroy our forests and mountains because west papua is the heart of the planet, heart of the land of the world. also, this west papua, we want west papuan independence and offer our brothers ancestors across the pacific, who will be disadvantaged by climate change, offer them a place.

because west papua is a great biggest land after greenland. there is no doubt of the natural riches in west papua. you talk about your brothers and sisters in the region, are you very disappointed with the international lack of support, if we're honest, that you in west papua have received for your independence campaign? australia, in particular, has a close relationship with the indonesian government and doesn't seem interested in backing your claims for independence. but, look, australia is a big power in the pacific. one thing that you know, we had a pacific islands meeting in tuvalu, we lobbied for 19 years but the first time west papua was adopted, 18 countries. including new zealand and australia.

it is time to change the foreign policy. this is talking about a humanitarian crisis. this is the 21st century. we are fighting colonialism in west papua. indonesia colonised west papua. 0ppressed my people. 50—20 is down, iam 0ppressed my people. 50—20 is down, i am worried, we don't want to repeat the history and what happened in other parts of the world, north america and indigenous people around the world as well. i hear your passion, but do you think the world cares or indeed cares enough? i think our world is already finding out. in almost the entire of my life, i have travelled the world, educated the world to understand what is going on. they don't know that indonesia closed west papua to journalists for 58 years. they got away with impunity, but now because of internet and social media, people are finding out.

across the pacific, caribbean, european. we must end in a moment. they want to end with this personal thought. you were forced to flee your homeland, west papua, in 2002 because you are facing women or charges. when do you believe you would be able to go home? when west papua's free i will go a free man. that is my mission. i'm forced to leave because i'm not guilty, but indonesia are trying to accuse me of false charges and they have tried to kill me three times in prison, but i managed to escape. many great leaders have been killed and assassinated in prison — poisoned. the world doesn't know what indonesia is doing in west papua. we are like in prison. since i came out and i brought that message in the united kingdom, from here i educate the world,

understand about our struggle. do you think you will live long enough to go home? i believe within my life in west papua will be free because indonesia cannot stop us. benny wanda, thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you. good morning. we really are experiencing all flavours of autumn this week. it was rather cool and disappointing on monday, wasn't it? but tuesday made up for it. some lovely spells of sunshine for most of us — as you can see by this beautiful weather watcher picture sent in from leeds.

however, today it's again a different story. we are seeing some wet and windy weather arriving, so some rain at times today and a noticeable blustery wind. and that's because of the remnants of ex—hurricane dorian. an area of low pressure that's been arriving over the last few hours bringing some wet and windy weather into scotland and northern ireland. and we've got these weather fronts straddled across the country first thing in the morning. not producing that much in the way of rain, but some patchy light rain across parts of east anglia and the south—east to start with. 0vercast skies and some rain into north wales and north—west england. but already, behind it, into scotland and northern ireland you'll start off with some sunny spells and a few scattered showers. now, we can't rule out the odd rumble of thunder with those showers, but hopefully they should be few and far between. something that will be late noticeable will be the strength of the wind, a strong westerly gusting in excess of a0 maybe 45 mph on exposed west facing coasts.

but there will be some sunny spells coming through later on in the day. and as a temperatures will improve. highs of 22 degrees, 72 fahrenheit. so that weather front will trail away then it's going to be replaced by another area of low pressure pushing in from the atlantic. this one has more in the way of tropical moisture tucked in behind it, which means a real difference in the weather to the north and the south. it will bring some rain into northern ireland, southern scotland, and north—west england for a time and some strong blustery winds here. but with that south—westerly flow and some sunny spells across much of england and wales temperatures will improve. and in the sunshine it will feel quite pleasant. we could see highs, maybe, of around 2a degrees, the mid—70s fahrenheit. a contrast to the north with 13—17 degrees the high. now, as we move out of thursday into friday, and the start of the weekend, an area of high pressure is going to build in across from the atlantic over england and wales.

just allowing weather fronts to topple across the high and bringing occasional spells of wet and windy weather to the extreme north—west. but for many of us it does mean that friday and into the weekend conditions will dry up and warm up and we could see temperatures somewhere in the south—east of 25 degrees by sunday afternoon. take care.

i'm rico hizon in singapore, the headlines: another change to team trump as the president sacks his national security advisorjohn bolton. colleagues deny the administration's in disarray. the president's entitled to the staff that he wants. he should have people that he trusts and values and whose methods and judgements benefit him in delivering american foreign policy. benjamin netanyahu vows to extend israeli sovereignty over thejordan valley if he's re—elected next week. palestinians say the move would ‘bury any chance of peace'. i'm kasia madera in london. also in the programme: where fear of hunger

is worse than the bombing.