tv HAR Dtalk BBC News September 12, 2019 2:30am-3:00am BST
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after scotland's highest civil court ruled its suspension was "unlawful". thejudges also said prime minister borisjohnson had effectively misled queen elizabeth in advising her to suspend parliament. the case will go to the uk supreme court next week. donald trump says he wants to ban flavoured e—cigarettes — after a series of vaping related deaths across the united states. six people are now known to have died, and there have been more than a50 cases of respiratory illness linked to the practice. ten days after hurricane dorian began causing devastation across the bahamas, officials say 2500 people have been registered as missing. the names are now being checked against records of evacuees and those staying in shelters. now on bbc news, hardtalk.
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welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. british prime minister borisjohnson has positioned himself as the country's brexit champion, but his pledge to take britain out of the eu on october the 31st is in trouble. parliament has passed a law requiring him to seek a deadline extension from the eu, so either he negotiates a new exit deal in short order or he attempts to defy the law. how is this british melodrama being viewed in europe? my guest is french mep and former europe minister, nathalie loiseau. has eu patience with british indecision run out?
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nathalie loiseau, in brussels, welcome to hardtalk. hello. i want to pick you up on something you said yesterday in fact. you talked of a brexit madness. how would you characterise this madness? who exactly is mad? well, first and foremost, i would say that, even if we respect the decision of the british people, we still regret it very much because,
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at a moment in history, where there is a need for unity, where we have big powers throughout the globe which are not always supporting of our priorities, the choice of being more isolated and weaker than what the uk is right now is difficult to understand and, if i was a british citizen, i would certainly ask myself, is it exactly what we wanted that is going to happen? you are, of course, not a british citizen, you're a french politician looking at britain. so i'm just wondering, when you talk about "brexit madness" whether that is your judgement on the first few weeks of boris johnson's premiership, because he is the new factor in all this, isn't he? well, for quite a long time, the eu 27 have waited with a lot of respect, with a lot of patience, and with a lot of concern, for a clear signal
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from the united kingdom. until now, we know what you don't want, but we still don't really know what you want. and especially now, we know that the british parliament wants an extension but we do not know what for. we know that the british parliament doesn't want a no deal, and we do understand why. we know that the british prime minister wants to leave, do or die, on october the 31st, so forgive me if i say that it is not exactly clear where you want to head and how you want to leave the european union. no, you lay out very succinctly some of the varying political currents in london right now, but my question to you comes back
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to prime minister borisjohnson, because he is the new factor in this protracted brexit mess — i think we can call it — and he says, and he said it again yesterday in dublin when talking to the leader of the irish government, he said he overwhelmingly wants a negotiated deal. do you believe him? the question is not exactly whether we believe him or not, but i might say that i am now lost in translation because we have a british prime minister saying that he does not want elections but still pushing for elections, saying that he wants a deal but his negotiator comes to brussels and provides with no proposal, no idea... strictly nothing to replace the withdrawal agreement, so it's a little bit confusing and, indeed, it doesn't really
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help to build trust. well, the government led by borisjohnson says, and ministers repeat this, that they are now straining every sinew to strike a new agreement with the european union negotiators in brussels. they say the old withdrawal agreement cannot stand and, as you well know, the prime concern they have is over the so—called irish backstop, that is, the plan to avoid a hard border in ireland, so they say we have serious negotiations about a different withdrawal agreement. to your knowledge, is that true or not true? if you remember, borisjohnson first said that he would not come to paris or berlin or brussels until we abandoned the backstop,
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then he changed his mind and he came to paris and to berlin and to biarritz, saying that he wanted a deal, and chancellor merkel as well as president macron told him, "well, come with ideas, come with proposals, which are credible, which respect the priorities that we set together — no hard border on the island of ireland, protection of the good friday agreement, peace and stability on the island of ireland, and consistency of the single market." so far i have not heard michel barnier, the european negotiator, coming back to us and saying, yes, there are new, credible proposals respecting these redlines. let me just clear up a couple of points of detail on ireland and then we can move on.
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first of all, there is mooted in london now the possibility that boris johnson, over the next few days, will suggest to the european negotiating team that britain might accept some form of northern ireland—only backstop, that is, that the british would accept that northern ireland would abide by the regulatory framework of the single market and the customs union, that the rest of the united kingdom would not and thereby there would be some sort of regulatory border, if you like, notional border, along with the irish sea. would that be acceptable to the european union? if you remember, this was precisely the proposal from the eu 27 in the first place, when we were negotiating with prime minister may. the first version of the backstop was northern ireland only, in terms of regulatory alignment
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with the rest of the european union. at that time, it was changed due to the british negotiator, into customs union for the whole of the united kingdom. we, of course, have no problem with our own proposal but now, having said that, we all know that the devil is in the details and i have not seen and i have not heard of a precise proposal off borisjohnson. just one other thing on ireland, which puzzles me, the european union says that, if there is a no deal exit on the 31st of october, then there will have to be a hard border between northern ireland and the irish republic, to protect the single market. but that is strange because the british government say there is no way they are going to build the infrastructure of a hard border, and that europeans,
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at the same time, say, "oh, well, if the infrastructure is put on the border, that will threaten the good friday peace agreement and stability in ireland." so is the eu seriously saying it is going to put infrastructure on the border and thereby threaten the peace agreement in ireland? is that what the eu wants? what the eu want is pretty clear. it is within the withdrawal agreement which we adopted and, of course, we don't want a no—deal and we don't want hard border but coming to downing street comes with responsibilities. the british prime minister cannot say that he seriously considers a no deal and say, at the same time, that he has no interest in the protection of his own borders, when brexit was supposed to be about taking back control so it sounds weird to me to say, well, i am taking decisions but i'm not interested in consequences.
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let's get away from the detail and talk politics. is it true to say — and you are a very close ally of his — that president emmanuel macron has tired of this entire brexit process and just wants to see britain out as soon as possible? well, if you listen to everything that was said by emmanuel macron for two years, he has repeatedly said that he would prefer having the united kingdom inside the european union, because we face challenges together, in terms of security, in terms of defence, in terms of trade or environment, climate change — all these huge challenges which deserve to be addressed... i do understand that... if i may, just make this very clear, he has also said — and he said it again after he'd seen boris johnson — "we are not going to go through this sort of crisis every few months,"
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which indicates to me, that when people talk of a two or three—month extension, after october 31, the french are really against it. i would not advise that you single out one member state, compared to others. we have been united from day one on brexit. not against the united kingdom but in favour of a solution that protects the interests of our fellow citizens, of ireland, and there is strong unity and, indeed, there is strong brexit fatigue, not because of brexit but because the absence of a clear choice made by british authorities on the way forward. if we hear that no—deal is not a solution, that the withdrawal agreement is not a solution, and if we have nothing to build on, what can we do? and you know, in the european union, we are about to confirm a commission we have a lot of work to do...
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and we are still dealing with brexit. we'll get to that point of whether brexit is becoming a deeply unwelcome distraction to europe's other business in a moment butjust finishing up on this idea of whether an extension can happen — your foreign minister, jean—yves le drian, the other day, seemed to be pretty sure that — quoting him — that "in the current circumstances," he said, about an extension, "it is a no". but the truth is, france, as you say, does not want to be out of step with its european partners, most european member states appear to believe that, if britain asks for an extension, it will have to be given, so, in a sense, it seems to me france overstepped the mark, and is having to row back and now you're acknowledging that, if the member states agree to an extension. we in france will go along with it. um, there is no change
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in the french position and there is no change in the position of the eu27. there has to be a good reason for an extension. you cannot simply say that, after two years, you are not ready. you have to tell us, what would you do with an extension? if i may... ..is it general election, is it people's vote? if i may, you know when the vote is coming — you know because borisjohnson no longer has a majority, you know that a general election is coming in britain, if not before october 31 then certainly soon afterwards, so that clearly is a good enough reason to give an extension, is it not? let me tell you from experience about brexit, until things are confirmed, i know nothing. if there is a clear position from the prime minister and from the parliament about a general election with a date
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and with the need to prepare for the election, this might be a reason for an extension. if there is a clear position about a people's vote, that might be a reason for an extension. if there is a clear proposal which is credible and acceptable from the british side, supported by a majority in the parliament on a withdrawal agreement, this is a reason for an extension. if there is nothing, why should we wait longer? at some moment decisions have consequences and we cannot wait forever, if no—one takes responsibility on the british side. it is a very sad. it is heartbreaking but it is your choice to make. if i may say so, the confusions and indecisions aren't all on the british side. let me pick you up on what seems to be one of yours. because last year you said you were in favour of the uk
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going for a second, another referendum, to settle this issue and sort out britain's position. and in the recent past, in recent weeks and months, you've said a second referendum would not be a positive thing. you say it would simply leave the uk as divided as ever. and you said i think it is necessary that the uk simply moves forward and that brexit takes place. so you've ruled out a second referendum, have you ? from europe's point of view? we have not, because it's your choice. it's a political choice to be made by the brits. it's not ours. we have not chosen brexit in the first place. even if it has consequences on the eu 27, we will live with the decision that we have not taken part, too. if there has to be a second referendum, it has to come from the brits. it's not the eu 27, which would patronise or monitor the british people and tell them you have to go back to the polls.
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you have to decide, but please, make an effort. it's been more than two years we have been discussing this. everything has been discussed in detail. we know everything about how their withdrawal agreement should be decided, adopted, ratified, and the most important conversation has not even started on our future relationship. and on this i have a number of big question marks. because at the moment we had the government of theresa may, we knew that she was reassuring the eu 27 on the environment and labour laws, she didn't want to withdraw from the key communities. now we have a prime minister saying with brexit he will get rid of eu regulations on environment and labour, that has huge consequences for british citizens, for british business, but also for the european union. it's going to cost, according to the bertelsmann institute in germany, going to cost eu citizens at least a0 billion euros if a no—deal brexit goes ahead.
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we know it is going to cost the uk government and awful lot of money, in proportion, more. but it is going to cost europe a great deal. are you putting that firmly at the top of your mind as you consider what to do over the next few weeks? we have it fully in mind. when i was a member of the french government i prepared my country for this scenario of a no—deal, not because i wanted it, because i thought it may very well happen. and now we are prepared, we are ready, and we are going to face the consequences of a decision taken in the united kingdom. with all due respect,
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you also have to realise that these decisions will have consequences on the united kingdom, on british citizens, on french or european citizens living in the united kingdom. this is why i go back to yourfirst question. yes, this whole brexit story is pure madness. it was sold to voters as being stronger, being wealthier, being more in control, and what do we see today? that a no—deal brexit will mean that the uk is weaker, more isolated and it will cost an enormous amount of money. what do you say... really, if i have something to say... all right, given... ..i would say stop this madness. given what you've said,
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what do you say to those brexiteers, some of them very close to boris johnson himself, who say we will leave with no deal if we need to on october 31, we will than open ourselves to business with the rest of the world, but we will also then be in a great position to negotiate a preferentialfree trade — or pretty much free trade — deal with the european union because europe needs itjust as much as we need it. negotiating with the rest of the world when you are one single country is not as profitable as when you belong to the european union. and trade partners throughout the world are waiting with a lot of appetite to see a single united kingdom asking for trade agreements. they will probably take advantage of the fact that the united kingdom is isolated.
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regarding the negotiation, with the european union, for the future relationship, indeed we want a good relationship, a strong relationship, but it takes two to tango. and i would be very much interested in knowing exactly what borisjohnson wants to put in an agreement, and we all know that brexit doesn't end with the no deal. we will still have conversations about everything that is on the table now and needs to be settled. the irish border, peace and stability in ireland, the consistency of the single market, the alignment with all regulation, there are several possible scenarios for a trade agreement and they were explained in detail by michel barnier to his interlocutors many times.
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so... and the more you want, the more you put yourself on the table, there are advantages that come with commitments. and the higher the commitment, the bigger the advantage is. so, you are certainly saying no closure, no sense of resolution if there is a no—deal brexit on october 31. but ijust wonder, i want to thank you in one different direction before we close, and that is whether you, as a french politician, a very close friend and an ally of emmanuel macron see a moment of opportunity here, in particularly for france, inside europe and the european union. you said, at least according to newspaper reports the other day that angela merkel was one of the problems with europe, you seem to be suggesting only mr macron could provide the dynamic leadership to take europe forward post—brexit. is that macron's ambition?
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to take the space — perhaps more space — left by the exit of the uk from the european union and imprint france's power on the project? well, first of all i will not comment on press reports on which i issued strong denials. but coming back to europe and what we're doing right now, it is not a question of imposing power from one member state to the others. it's a question of living up to the expectancies to what our voters have asked for when we went to the european elections and our voters are asking for a more united european defence, a more efficient european security, a way to deal with the digital transformation of our societies and our economies. this is precisely what ursula von
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der leyen is preparing with the next commission and what we will be working on. the member states and the council, the european commission, and the european parliament, where i belong to a group, renew europe, will be key to defining all majorities for our projects. so this is not a question of a person, even if emmanuel macron has put in a lot of input, a lot of vision on the european union's future, but this vision is shared by his counterparts throughout europe. alright. and we are ambitious for europe because we are ambitious for our citizens. nathalie loiseau, we're out of time, but i thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk.
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hello. just wanting to bring you right up—to—date with how we see the weather panning out across the british isles for the next few days. wednesday was a slow start across southern parts. and in fact, that same weather front links back to another area of cloud and rain in the heart of the atlantic. that's an area of low pressure that started life way down across the mid—atlantic, so it's bringing mild, moisture—laden air across the british isles and feeling really quite humid. to the south of the weather front, in the heart of that system, the cloud at its thickest so rain from the word go for parts of northern ireland, getting into scotland,
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eventually across the border into the far north of england. following on behind, somewhat brightest skies to the south of that weather front, quite a bit of cloud around, for sure, and some of it, really quite low in the atmosphere across the south—west on what is going to be quite a blustery day. but those mild, moist air are coming in from the south—west, not a cold direction by any means at all. and you'll find temperatures pushing on towards 23—24 degrees somewhere across east anglia and the south—east, just that wee bit bit fresher further to north. but all the while, once that weather front is pushed away, despite the fact skies begin to clear, it will be a slightly fresher night with temperatures down in single figures across the north, but where you keep the cloud in the south, 12, 13, or 1a degrees as the starting mark for friday. friday sees an area of high pressure building in behind that weather front as it moves in towards the near continent, and in that circulation, at this stage, the air is fairly fresh, it has to be said. so, friday is a dry, fine day for the most part, enough cloud for the odd passing shower across the north and north—west of scotland, but many areas dry.
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and despite the presence of the sunshine, well, is not the warmest of days over the next few days. you'll see the top temperature there in the south at around about 20 degrees, but as we move from friday on towards the weekend, the centre of that high moves a little bit further towards the east. so we then begin to tap into those mild airs again coming from way down in the atlantic. and for the greater part for southern scotland, england and wales, and for a time, northern ireland, it's going to be dry, fine and sunny. and certainly a warmer day for many, the notable exception is that front across the northern and western parts of scotland which becomes this weakening band of weather, robbing some areas of their sunshine as we move into sunday. still, many areas will be dry but that cloud could give the odd spot of rain to the south it where the temperatures are again rising to about the mid—20s.
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welcome to bbc news — i'm aaron safir. our top stories: another twist in the brexit drama — mps demand parliament's immediate recall, after scottish judges rule prime minister borisjohnson acted unlawfully when he suspended it. the advice given by the government to her majesty the queen to prorogue parliament from the 9th of september to the 14th of october was unlawful, and that, therefore, the prorogation itself is unlawful. president trump says he may ban flavoured e—cigarettes, after a number of deaths in the united states.
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