tv HAR Dtalk BBC News September 13, 2019 12:30am-1:00am BST
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the three front runners — joe biden, elizabeth warren and bernie sanders — are all in their 705. younger candidates have failed to have much impact in the campaign so far. more than 140 bushfires are already raging across parts of australia, an unusually early start to the annual fire season. experts say they are fuelled by strong winds and a prolonged drought. and this video is trending on bbc.com. it's the world's biggest construction crane, which has just started work at the hinkley point nuclear power plant currently being built in western england. it's called big carl and can lift 5,000 tonnes at a single time. that's all. stay with bbc world news. now on bbc news, stephen sackur speaks to independent mp heidi allen on hardtalk.
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welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. brexit is stress—testing britain's political and constitutional conventions to the very limit. with prime minister borisjohnson apparently intent on ignoring the will of parliament and exiting the eu at the end of october, the eye of the brexit storm is fast approaching. my guest is heidi allen mp, who quit the conservative party in early 2019 and co—founded a new pro—remain centrist party, but that bid to break the political mould failed. what does her experience tell us about the clarity and coherence of brexit‘s opponents?
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heidi allen, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. you quit the conservative party seven months ago. you clearly wanted to change the dynamic of the brexit debate in the united kingdom. seven months on, are you ready to say you failed? to be honest, i mean, brexit was the catalyst that drew us together, those that jumped was the catalyst that drew us together, those thatjumped at the same time from both labour and conservative but we all had slightly different reasons as well. for me i couldn't tolerate any more being associated with the conservative brand, i had deep concerns about the welfare state and the rolling out of the new benefits system so it was
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more about the way the party changed and what i could represent, but you're right, brexit was part of it stop you have said then which is what quite a lot of tories have said since, you feared party was looking like the brexit party. it pushed all the way to the right and it looks like we were trendsetters in hindsight. i go back to what changed asa hindsight. i go back to what changed as a result of what you did, what we have now is a prime minister in place since you left, borisjohnson, who is committed come what may to brexit on october the 31st and said he would rather die in a ditch and ask the eu for a deadline extension. so, if anything, the trends we saw seven months ago are even more so today? absolutely, which shows those who made the decision at the time we re who made the decision at the time were absolutely right. what you could say has changed is more collea g u es could say has changed is more colleagues now in the conservative party have recognised the same, they've been unable to stick by the brand and they voted against the government knowing that would mean they would have the whip removed. there is a more powerful bass now that can potentially influence what happens next. yes, now, talk to me
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about how you see the conservative party today, obviously no longer your party. some of your friends we re your party. some of your friends were among the 21 that were fired. where you hoping they would make common cause with you, declare themselves to be independent mps in themselves to be independent mps in the way that you have? coz that's not what they've actually done. at the time i didn't expect any of them tojump but did i overtime realise we would end most likely with boris johnson and no—deal? did i think there would be a significant number who say they can't support this any more? yes. a few have different views. some will stand down and won't stand in a general election again, a good number, others are talking about standing as an independent conservative but you can't have that on the ballot paper and i've been talking to them about that but it seems to me they will either have to choose to stand as another party or an independent or give up their seats. this is career changing for all of us. give us a sense of the conversations you've
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been having an who with. over the summer i've been building and organisation called unite to remain. 0ne organisation called unite to remain. one of the reasons the change uk party failed, those worried about brexit, a no—deal brexit particularly, were eagerfor brexit, a no—deal brexit particularly, were eager for remain parties and remain mps to work together and put the country before party ‘s. and it wasn't before european elections because they came so quickly but we have time to plan for a general election, more than the euros. i've been working with the euros. i've been working with the lib dems, the greens, plaid cymru and the independents to come up cymru and the independents to come up with a packed so when the general election comes, in as many seats as possible, like in brecon in the by—election we saw recently, there will be one remain candidate standing and i've been talking to those tory mps thinking perhaps they would have to resign the whip, what with their plans be and somehow we could offer them assistance in that. you talk of a general election, but isn't the truth you could have had a general election in mid—october because boris johnson general election in mid—october because borisjohnson daily general election in mid—october because boris johnson daily wanted general election in mid—october because borisjohnson daily wanted a snap election and he could only get
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it with the support of opposition mps, including yourself, you denied it to him and it seems you denied it to him because you look at the opinion polls and it seems the conservative party has a substantially healthy lead in the polls now. that's the conservative party, led by borisjohnson, determined to get a do or die brexit. as anyone who knows dominic cummings will tell you, he is a data man, he is saying push the button now, you can win a general election now. what the opposition parties dead, principally labour, it was jeremy corbyn who came round to the idea, they realised if we had allowed boris johnson idea, they realised if we had allowed borisjohnson to have a general election, he would have controlled the timetable, meaning he could still influence leaving with no—deal. we are not prepared to do that, we will push into the wire and resist the call for a general election until he goes to the eu council on. howcynical are you? in the end britain is politically deadlocked and there's no way that
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this mess can be sorted out in parliament, there is no majority, the executive, borisjohnson, wants to ta ke the executive, borisjohnson, wants to take britain out of october the sist. to take britain out of october the 31st. surely you should have axed to his request to let the people decide in the form of a general election in mid—0ctober before the october the sist mid—0ctober before the october the 31st deadline? he was game playing because he could have chosen a date after october the 31st. he wanted to give people a chance to voice their opinion before. do you know? i certainly don't, i don't know what date he would have chosen, he is not obliged to give us the election date before after october the 31st. there's growing appetite for this now and i suspect we would achieve it if we tried again. you're right, we are in deadlocked, therefore it needs to go back to the british people, we need a confirmatory vote, a second referendum, call it what you well, that's the only thing that can break the deadlock. we will go back to the second referendum in a
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minute but let's focus, because it's important, trying to understand british politics today, it's important to dig into the reasons why your decision to create a new movement that changed its name from the independent group to change uk, why did it fail and fail in a rather humiliating way within a couple of months of its creation? there's a number of reasons. i don't think brexit is necessarily at the heart of it stop ei think what we recognised when we got into... the opinions really changed us top when we first launched we were riding high in the polls and the best thing since sliced red, the local elections came and none of us factored in, to be truthful, and the polls shifted measurably. the lib dems did very well and then they we re dems did very well and then they were riding high suddenly and it was clear we won't the exciting new kids on the block anymore and in the european elections, people were saying we have to vote for who was more likely to win, and that was the lib dems. in retrospect would you
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say that the way british politics worked, you were hopelessly naive to think you could create a new remain centrist party with momentum, because you said this, you stand on your departure from the tories, you said," party try mirza ‘s and arthur to me and shouldn't reworking down might be working on the big issues in the country ‘s best interest, shouldn't we be searching for the right answers line to any colour..." i still feel the same way. that is naive, that's not how british politics works. i don't care but we should be pushing and pushing for that. its not the best way if you crash and burn within three months. it's ironic that the reason half of us it's ironic that the reason half of us left that's how we felt, that our young party, young as it was, wasn't prepared to put the country first when we weren't the favourite kids in town. we need to go for the lib dems, it's not about us, half the group unfortunately still felt that. that's interesting. you were only 11
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at the beginning and half of you, as you put it, refused to think strategically and long—term. you would say people like anna soubry, a fellow tory who quit, like you did, joined the independent group and then called the leader of the group is our because basically said if the lib dems have a chance of winning a particular seat then back the lib dems. anna soubry saw that as a com pletely dems. anna soubry saw that as a completely bizarre way to found a new partly. -- party. if we behave in tribal ways, we're never going to break the system stop either way the brexit thing will be fixed, finally movement in the house of commons, is parties are learning to work together. our country needs this more than any party and we have have to put that to one side. a number of collea g u es to put that to one side. a number of colleagues of yours, i'm thinking, for example, of chuka umunna and luciano bechio, both influential labour mps who joined the independent group, they have now continued their politicaljourney by
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joining the liberal democrats. there isa joining the liberal democrats. there is a lot of talk that you are going tojoin the liberal is a lot of talk that you are going to join the liberal democrats. are you? if i had a pound for everyone that asked me that i would be very wealthy indeed. are not going to give you a pound, i want a straight answer. the unite to remain initiative is me helping to poker a deal between the remain parties. to do that effectively, to make a difference and we don't split the remain vote, that has to be brokered by an independent and that's why i've stayed as an independent and that puts me at risk in my career if they general election comes soon but i'm not prepared tojump into any other party until that's done. that's the big prize, returning a significant number of remain mps to the house of commons to shift our country's direction. that's more important than my own career so i'm determined to stay as an independent to do that. are you going to run in your current constituency, which, of course, you won as a conservative candidate telling the people of south cambridgeshire you are committed to brexit. you haven't had
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a by—election so you don't have a mandate for your new position as an independent mp, but are you going to back to your constituents and asked for their support again? in terms of my constituents, they voted overwhelmingly to remain and the reason i didn't have a by—election, it is true people vote for the person not the party but regardless of that... person not the party but regardless of that. .. says who? that is constitutionally accepted, you are voting for the person, not the party, it is in law. that may be a technical response but the people of south cambridgeshire, many will think i voted for a tory and now i have an mp that doesn't define herself as a tory as she did before but say she is something else, i need the chance to re—elect her. you're right, it's the views of my constituents that are the most important and i've had over 6500 e—mails from constituents, conversations in the street and supermarkets and pubs saying i did the right thing and at the last count 65 e—mails from people telling me i'm unhappy. my seat is not a
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right—wing conservative seat, it is true of science, technology and echoed academics and they realise what i've done is in the best interests of the country and it seems on evidence my constituents are very happy. this idea of unite to remain and building a strategic, very careful alliance of pro—remain forces to maximise the number of successful victories you can get in the next election, that might require you to stand down in favour of the lib dems? absolutely it might. my estate in south cambridgeshire, a remain seat in a conservative, lib dem target, that's one of the jigsaw pieces in the unite to remain jigsaw and every seat needs analysis and polling to see who wins their. you're right, it could be a problem. isn't the problem for this remain side, longer than three years, this protracted argument in britain, leave or remain, isn't the fundamental problem that the leave side has a
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very clear, understandable position. that is britain must leave the european union. 17.4 million people, 5296 european union. 17.4 million people, 52% of the vote in the referendum voted for that. a clear majority, and therefore britain must leave. the remain message is much, much more complicated. i don't think that's true at all. the leave message, that's the great worry for all of this, did people vote for no—deal and to lose trade ties? all of this, did people vote for no-deal and to lose trade ties? they voted to leave, it was a simple question before them. do you want to stay in the european union or do you wa nt to stay in the european union or do you want to leave it and they voted to leave ? want to leave it and they voted to leave? it was put to them it would be the easiest deal in the history of all dealmaking. the common market would go back to the old days. but none of that was on the ballot paper, it was binary, leave or remain, and the majority voted to leave. you can say that, but the point is, david cameron put that to
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the people and he said this is a once—in—a—lifetime chance to settle the argument. you, the people, will settle it and a clear majority voted to leave and the fundamental problem for remain, whether you be an independent, a lib dem or a labour remainer, the fundamental problem is you cannot match the simplicity clarity of the remain message. again, idisagree again, i disagree with that. a vision of how wonder full —— wonder for the future can be as i was going to be easier to sell than the status quo. the fact is, people didn't vote to leave with no deal and people did not vote for no transition period, not vote for no transition period, no regulation and medicines of movement of people or tariffs on goods. nobody voted to make themselves poorer and my responsibility as a member of parliament, it is to the security of this country, the economic security of mice at —— constituents. this country, the economic security of mice at -- constituents. we will
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get to yellowhammer which is the report that makes predictions about what might happen to the economy after a no—deal brexit but let's stick to this notion. you said your first priority is the economic ‘s —— economic and security of your constituents. surely it should be a healthy democracy. the reason he resigned the web as well was she could see no effort going into getting a deal and the government and cabinet were spending all their time looking at no deal. we have seen how damaging it would be to the economy. you haven't addressed my question, you have come back to your point that no deal is very dangerous but listen to michael gove and many others have said it," if we fail to deliver on the clear verdict backed by 17.4 million people who voted to leave the eu, it would be a fatal
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blow to faith in democracy". you argue for a new politics which isn't about tribalism or party but about real, recent debate. is there no pa rt real, recent debate. is there no part of you that can see what michael gove is saying? new politics has to be honest. it has to tell the public what the risks are and that is the entire reason there are many of us and i suspect a number in the commons now, believe a second referendum is to come out of it ——is the way out. please just say to me, do you do you not recognise that some truth in what michael gove says about failing to deliver on the referendum result, leading to a catastrophic lack of faith in the british public in the democratic system ? british public in the democratic system? democracy doesn't live on one day only. it doesn't ——it isn't owned by people that voted on one day only. we have had lots more elections since we had the
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referendum... and obviously overwhelmingly the votes went overwhelmingly the votes went overwhelmingly to parties to people who are committed to brexit. polling is showing that people are changing their mind and they want a say on this. because i believe democracy does not exist on one day, i believe there is no greater opportunity to show we embrace democracy than by checking with people and saying, this is your country, yourfuture, are you happy with this?” this is your country, yourfuture, are you happy with this? i want to continue with the idea of trust. an influential professor of politics, matthew goodwin, he is a survey delight, these are his views. the first time in a natural —— national history, a majority of people outside parliament, asked for something and the majority of people inside parliament didn't want to give them. do you understand that?|j give them. do you understand that?” do but the reality is, they were lies. there was no description of
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what the future would look like. michael gove, if you want to quote him, he and pretty much every other cabinet minister here is a said no deal would be catastrophic at some point. they would never let parliament to be pro— road. these mps would turn on their word. —— pro— broking. mps would turn on their word. —— pro- broking. are you saying they are liars? no, i said they were lied to. you are saying the leaders of the government today, michael gove, borisjohnson, that the government today, michael gove, boris johnson, that they are liars. they will pivot on a point is that every single one of them has been quoted, particularly in the leadership race, every single one of them, matt hancock, they all said pro— broking, no dealand them, matt hancock, they all said pro— broking, no deal and suddenly it is acceptable. ———— proroguing. when you talk about lies and when we talk about lies you have to assume that the people telling those things that the people telling those things that you regard as lies are liars,
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you seem to be part of the corrosive, toxic atmosphere in british politics. i want to be honest. i want people to be honest and that is why this week we voted to request the yellowhammer documents to be released because we think it is important that the british public have the eyes wide open. if we have a second referendum and they say, you know what, we understand the risks now and we understand the risks now and we understand what happens to food shortages, medicine shortages, then we understand that, we are ok with that, then find the top but my idea is that a lot of people in this country, polling shows, people are not happy with that. the biggest exercise on this is to ask people again. i want to stick with the trust thing because i believe that you personally have experienced the changing nature, worrying changing nature, of british politics in recent times. the head of the metropolitan police, there is ——
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says there is a rising threat level and our politicians and i know that personally have, since your flip from the tories to your new independent stance, you have been subject to real and significant threats, haven't you? yes, to be fair that happened before i left the conservative party. this isn't something that escalated as a consequence of that was up yes, as mps, we do face that. to be honest, i think it is women mps that tend to be targeted more. i have had threats and people have been sent to jail. it people are making death threats against you and i believe you have had to modify the way that you leave on police advice, isn't it incumbent upon, notjust on police advice, isn't it incumbent upon, not just you on police advice, isn't it incumbent upon, notjust you but everybody in politics to be extraordinarily careful about language? when you talk about people telling lies and recently you tweeted that the tory party behaves as if it is pantomime
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season. "i am now ashamed to say i was ever a member, they are disgraceful". when you engage in that type of politicking, and you making it worse? absolutely not and if you think i should power in my home because they decide to post my dress on social media, i am here to stand up for my constituents and to stand up for my constituents and to stand up for them. i am not conceding —— i am not saying you should... dial down on the inflammatory racket —— rhetoric. when we were having a debate on monday night when we were talking about having no deal, if you had beenin about having no deal, if you had been in the chamber, the laughing and during from the conservatives was intense. that is unacceptable. i am not telling people to rise up and
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ta ke am not telling people to rise up and take arms... before we end, let's talk about how britain emerges from which we have decided is an extraordinary and difficult situation. you clearly believe the only way out, ultimately, is a second referendum. i do. only way out, ultimately, is a second referendum. ido. but only way out, ultimately, is a second referendum. i do. but should no deal be an option for the british people? the polls suggest a significant portion of the country believes in no deal, for all of the economic pain it would cause, is still the right and proper cause. there are two schools of thought and iam not there are two schools of thought and i am not settled on the answer. the electoral commission would have a view on this as well. either it will be whatever the latest deal is, and the labour party have come out and said that as well, whatever that deal is, versus remain. and there is an argument for a third reference boat that would have no deal on the ballot papers as well. because otherwise how would you ever heal some of the wounds in this country? there are millions of people who have looked at theresa may was make deal, they do not like it, they call
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it brexit in name only and they say they want that clean break. clean. and you are suggesting it is possible that might not even be an option? it wouldn't be up to me. it would be the house of commons and the commission would have a say. i understand why people would have a sympathy to that view. the other thing parliamentarians would have to ta ke thing parliamentarians would have to take into account, that no deal would put us in fringe of international law because we wouldn't be able to uphold the good friday agreement. i know a lot of mps have an issue with no deal going on the ballot paperjust on that basis alone because they wouldn't be able to ensure the no hard border in ireland. that is a real consideration. but at the end of the day, no deal would make our constituents poorer. this is not an overnight thing, this will take decades for us to recover our economy. that is something serious that parliamentarians have to take into account when they are deciding. should we get to that point want to
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settle accurate —— second referendum is approved by the house of commons will stop i don't believe there is a single member of this country that would thank any politician for them losing theirjob being less well off. that, to me, and many others, is what no deal would do. what would happen. nevermind new politics, for you, the fight goes on. a second referendum would deal with this over and —— almost overnight. referendum would deal with this over and -- almost overnight. heidi allen, thank you very much for being on hardtalk. hello there. over the last couple of days, the remnants of two different ex—tropical weather systems have been in charge of our weather. first we had the leftovers of what was hurricane dorian passing to the north of the uk.
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we saw outbreaks of rain and brisk winds and during thursday, it was ex—tropical storm gabriel. not much left of it. and as a cold front moves away from the south on friday, high pressure builds in behind. we will be left with a lot of fine weather, good spells of sunshine but a significantly fresher field. —— feel. humid air that has been associated with that x tropical storm pushed up to the continent. we start off with cloud in the channel islands and a bit of rain but that will clear quite quickly to than a lot of sunshine and drive the majority. it will be windy in scotland but further south, the winds light. however, in the fresher air, temperatures a bit lower. temperatures of 20—21 degrees for plymouth, cardiff, london, more like 17 in aberdeen. through friday night,
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temperatures will dip away. particularly down towards the south—west where winds will remain light. further north, more in the way of a breeze in northern ireland and scotland and some rain pushing back into the far north—west. the overnight lows seeing one or two spots down towards the south getting down to three or four degrees. high pressure still in charge for most of us as we go into saturday morning but notice frontal systems trying to squash in towards the north—west, bringing some outbreaks of rain and also some pretty strong winds. much of the rain on saturday is likely to be confined to the northern and western parts of scotland and a bit more cloud into northern ireland and the far north of england. further south, a lot more sunshine and temperatures creeping up in southern parts. 22-23. always cooler and fresher across the north where it will be windy and particularly windy on saturday night through the far north of scotland and then into sunday, it looks like this
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frontal system will try to push a bit further south but uncertain as to how far it will get. maybe patchy rain into northern england and north—west wales. to the north something fresher and to the south, we could get up to 25 degrees. all of us getting into fresher airfor the start of the new working week. with high pressure in charge, it will be largely dry.
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i'm sharanjit leyl in singapore. the headlines: a vital debate gets underway between the top ten democrats looking to win the party's presidential nomination. it's only the start of australia's fire season down under, but more than 140 bushfires are already raging. i'm nuala mcgovern in london. also in the programme: the british prime minister insists he did not lie to the queen in order to suspend parliament. reporter: did you like to the queen when you advised her to prorogue, to suspend parliament? absolutely not. —— live to. and a special report from inside the deadly, dirty world of myanmar‘s jade mines
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