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now on bbc news, it's hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. all of the conflicts and tensions in the wider middle east coalesce in one small nation — lebanon. currently a quarter of the lebanese population is made up of refugees from syria. iran wields huge influence in lebanon thanks to its sponsorship of the militant group hezbollah, and israel has a long history of intervention in its northern neighbour. my guest today is lebanon's foreign minister gebran bassil. is his government making lebanon's problems worse?

gebran bassil, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. once again, it looks as though lebanon could be drawn in to a dangerous regional conflict, and your government appears to be doing nothing right now to reduce the tension. why is that? actually, we want to avoid getting into any trouble. our policy is to be disassociated from any conflict in the region but we are obliged to protect our country and we are repeatedly aggressed by israeli violations of un resolution 1701. imagine that in the last two months, we had 480 israeli violations of our sovereignty by air, land and sea. but if you seriously want to avoid getting into any conflict, why do you continue to allow

the militant shia group hezbollah to expand its military presence across your country? there has never been an attack from lebanon against any country, and specifically israel. it's only an act of self defence. whenever we're attacked by israel like in the war 2006, lebanon has had to respond and since then, we lived 13 years of calm. but i'm talking about... what happened lately, israel attacked us and our capital using two drones with 6.7 kilograms of explosives for each. but we know why israel has conducted targeted attacks including drone strikes inside lebanese territory. we know why, because the israelis see what hezbollah is doing. they are developing their precision missile capability on your soil.

they're even boasting about it and israel says it will do whatever it takes to protect its own security in the face of this hezbollah militarisation. why israel has arrived to do whatever she wants outside the legitimacy, the international legitimacy? why lebanon does not have the right to defend himself? why israel has the right to have a nuclear bomb where lebanon cannot even defend itself? with respect, minister, this isn't about lebanon, it's about hezbollah. unless you're saying that hezbollah is the de facto armed force of the lebanese state? is that what you're saying? hezbollah is part of the lebanese population, hezbollah is part of the government, hezbollah is part of the parliament and hezbollah is defending lebanon when lebanon is being aggressed, along with the lebanese army.

so you are entirely happy, are you? i just want to get this straight for the people around the world, you're entirely happy that we know iran is funding, supplying and training hezbollah with a new precision—guided missiles. hezbollah just a couple of days ago boasted about its new anti—warship missiles. you are entirely happy for this military buildup to be taking place on your territory, not controlled by you, the lebanese state, but controlled by hezbollah and therefore, ultimately, controlled from iran. you're happy with all of that, are you? no, i will be happy when peace will prevail in my country and the region. and when this exceptional situation will end. and i will be happy when israel will respect the un resolution and will stop occupying my country and will stop aggressing the arab rights. then i will be happy.

now, i'm not happy to be in the situation where we are always threatened with war and with aggression from israel. no, i'm not happy. why is your message on this so out of step with your own boss, the prime minister of lebanon, saad hariri? mr hariri said just the other day of hezbollah, he said, "this organisation is not only lebanon's problem, it is the entire region's problem, and they are acting in southern lebanon contrary to our position." that's your prime minister talking about hezbollah. 0ur prime minister defended lebanon when he was aggressed by israel in the last two week's events. let's be clear, your prime minister describes hezbollah as a deep problem. why don't you? because hezbollah is considered by many countries as a problem and we cannot neglect that it is considered as such.

and we agree that this is not a usual situation in a country which is occupied where you have the army and you have an armed group and this is why we say we want to get rid of that situation by having peace in place, by having our territories freed from the occupation. then there will be no reason why we should have this unusual situation. well, you say occupation but of course, israeli troops pulled out of lebanese territory a long time ago. so i'm not quite clear what occupation you're talking about. i don't think anybody argues about the fact that the israeli forces are still occupying arab lands, syria and lebanon, shebaa farms, kfar shuba hills, and a part of ghajar village. it's interesting you mention one small pocket of territory... and nobody also argues that we still have hundreds of thousands of palestinians living in our country who were expelled from their country.

it's interesting, minister, you keep talk about "we" as though lebanon is united on this. of course, lebanon isn't united at all. you speak for your own party, the patriotic forces movement a christian party in lebanon. mmmm...not... hang on, let mejust finish the question. you, as one of the leading christian parties, movements, inside your country, have consistently sought partnership and alliance with hezbollah. you provide cover for what hezbollah is doing and what the iranians are doing inside your own country. no, not at all, we are united on this against israel and let me tell you why. well, you're clearly not united ‘cause your own prime minister regards hezbollah as a problem. let me tell you why, because we have a national unity government, headed by our prime minister saad hariri, in which all the lebanese factions and politicalforces are present and among them is hezbollah. and that government, that national unity government, unanimously declared its unity

behind the lebanese position and against israel. but the point is hezbollah takes... that same situation was in 2006. but, but, when you talk about... let me tell you something, we are united whenever israel is aggressing us. it seems to me, you, as lebanon's foreign minister is in a very difficult position because the united states, the united kingdom, a host of arab countries, regard hezbollah as an out and out terrorist organisation. we have the united states which in recent days has imposed sanctions on more hezbollah officials, including two members of parliament. they've also imposed sanctions on a lebanese bank saying it was a financial conduit for hezbollah. you, as foreign minister, how do you respond to what the americans are doing? in what sense? well, do you welcome it? do you oppose it? can you oppose it? first, we definitely oppose,

we don't agree, that our mps would be sanctioned. but we know that this is the us position, since long time, on which we disagree but still, we have good relations with the us. we have strong ties with the us. yeah, it's interesting, ‘cause you say... crosstalk. the us is supporting our armed forces, they are also supporting our country, we have our strong ties but we disagree on that. let me give you the words of your counterpart in the united states, secretary of state mike pompeo, earlier this year. "in lebanon", he said, "hezbollah puts all of the lebanese people at risk with unilateral and unaccountable decisions on war and peace, life and death. the lebanese people face a choice. they either bravely move forward as an independent nation or they allow the dark ambition of iran and hezbollah to dictate the future."

you have chosen the latter. you know, we received him in lebanon, secretary pompeo, and we answered him that our position is that hezbollah is not considered as a terrorist organisation because, you know why? you know why we cannot consider them as such? because hezbollah represents a big part of the lebanese population. there is 1a mps in parliament and we cannot accuse part of our population to be terrorists. so we are talking about our population and we are talking about our national unity. that's why we cannot but be in disagreement with that position. so don't tell me that you have a good relationship with washington because clearly, washington regards your position, particularly your christian party, your decision to go in alliance with hezbollah, as a fundamental threat to both israel's security and as the us would see it,

to american security. so you want to disregard the fact that the us is assisting our armed forces, paying money to our country. yes because they're dealing with the prime minister, with respect, foreign minister, they're not looking at you thinking "he's our guy in lebanon". no, i don't have the honour to be the guy of anyone in lebanon. i am the guy of lebanon, not of the united states, not of iran, not of saudi arabia. you know? i am the guy of lebanon. i am the foreign minister of lebanon, not of anybody. and that's why we have a policy that preserves our interests, not the interests of anybody else. that's why. .. in washington... that's why we take from washington what is in our interests and from any other foreign country. and we have the courage to disagree with what washington says. let me quote you the words of the relatively new assistant secretary of state in washington

for near eastern affairs, david schenker. he very pointedly said about his fears of hezbollah and its supporters lebanon. he said, "in the future, we will designate, because we have to, individuals in lebanon", this is for sanctions, "who are aiding and assisting hezbollah, regardless of their sect or religion." that was clearly a message pointed towards christian politicians such as yourself who are in alliance with hezbollah. you could face us sanctions. i am the foreign minister of lebanon and these sanctions would not be targeting my person, if they ever happen, and i doubt they will ever happen. these are circulated for some interests but if they ever happen then all of lebanon is sanctioned. and then all of lebanon will have to deal with this. i don't represent myself, i represent lebanon.

again, in an independent foreign policy, that i would like to preserve lebanon away from problems, but at the same time, i would like to protect lebanon against israeli aggressions that are disregarded by the international community. i hope that israel will abide by the un resolution, as lebanon is doing, and as such we will avoid all these problems and we will be facing peace. you in lebanon know better than most the chaos that can come with war and the problems that can come with mass movements of people. i believe roughly a quarter of your population today is actually syrian who fled the terrible war in syria. why is your government right now violating international conventions by forcing more and more of those syrian refugees out of your country, returning them to syria? this is really unjust, really unjust to treat a country

like lebanon who hosted 50% of its population as refugees and displaced, and provided the best example of humanity by receiving these huge numbers of peoples for seven years, of accusing a country like lebanon of forcing people to leave. we never forced one single syrian to leave our country. the director of... hang on. the director of middle east... crosstalk let me tell you, these false reports are very untrue, nobody provided us with one example as such and this is not how you reward a country like lebanon who did what he did. not one country in europe, no all of europe was able to host as much as lebanon hosted. there is no question lebanon has been strained by the number, the sheer scale of migration into your country from syria but you're not reading the same reports as me because there is clear evidence, the middle east director of human rights watch says lebanon is clearly putting syrians at grave risk by returning them to the country they fled from,

handing them to a government responsible for mass atrocities. the lebanese access centre for human rights issued a report the other day saying there is no evidence of a systematic policy of the lebanese authorities to push refugees to leave the country and return to syria. there is evidence. totally untrue and that is not evidence. totally untrue. you choose not to see it. you choose to close your eyes. you have, over time, said to your own people that these syrian refugees are less, less than the people of lebanon. let me tell you something. this is my country and i know much more than you what's going on in my country and i challenge you to provide us with one fact that one syrian was expelled from our country

whereas here in this country, orfrom where i am coming from now, germany, the interior minister of germany said that a syrian who is going back to his country is no longer classed as a refugee. in lebanon, we have a move of more than 11,000 syrians a month. people who are considered refugees and are able still to go back to their country, and they are taking ourjobs in lebanon, they are having assistance from lebanon and the international community and still, they are still very much welcome in our country and are still having the best refuge they can have. here in europe, you know how many countries expelled syrians or refused to host them? still, we are in a very weak economic situation and still, we are hosting them, an unprecedented humanism.

you want evidence. on april 26, at least 16 syrians were summarily deported after arriving at beirut airport despite most of those 16 people expressing explicit fears of torture and persecution should they be returned to syria. 0n the airport? how much evidence do you need? you are coming on the airport of beirut shows they are being oppressed in their country? you know how they come to the airport of lebanon? it means that they are not coming from syria. it doesn't mean they are not being persecuted in their own country. no, no, no, no. you told me there is no evidence of any syrian being returned forcibly to the country under fear of persecution. there is clear evidence. of course, there is not any one evidence, anyone name you can provide, this is totally untrue. why, just a couple of months ago, did you make a speech which worried many of your own people?

you said the lebanese are, above all, you said there is a genetic distinction which makes the lebanese superior to the syrians. many lebanese feared that you were being populist, nationalist, and some said even racist. this is not true. i always talked about the genetics of lebanon and our belonging. what's genetics got to do with it? let me tell you something, not in comparison with the syrians, this is totally untrue, and you bring the text and i challenge you again that this is untrue. i always talk about lebanity. lebanity is a sense of belonging to the lebanese. you know why i use this? to say we have our own belonging, not being affiliated to any other foreign country. and so you think, because this idea of lebanity, crosstalk. let me continue. this was never used versus any other people.

this was never used against the syrians. maybe you are aware... 0n the contrary, we always showed affection and the best behaviour to the syrians and when we are seeking their return, it's for their sake. it is because we care for the syrians, we want them to go back to our country. we are also saying those calling for syrians to stay out of the country, they are racists. your own party supporters have been going around with banners telling syrians to go home. they've attacked shops and businesses run by syrians and you may have forgotten that back in 2013, you said that syrians in lebanon should be deported. this is the politician that you are. no, not deported, they should go back to their country, of course. of course they should not stay... they do not feel safe in their country. and you say they should be forced into their country... i think they feel very safe

and i think that they have been living in lebanon for several years. nobody ever harmed them. and it's our right and their right to call for their return to their country and it is your obligation here to help a country like lebanon and to help the syrians to go back to their country, not because another misery to the syrian people to stay out of the country. isn't the truth... and this racism. well, isn't. .. and this is the lack of humanism. of their country and you force them to stay out of their country. and our good behaviour is to help them to go back to their country. many people listening to this will think you are indulging in a fantasy about the desire of the syrians in your country to rush back to syria but let us leave that on one side and discuss the nature of your politics. many people see you as a nationalist and a populist who is playing a dangerous game in lebanese politics.

you are scapegoating syrians, saying they're taking lebanese jobs, ruining the lebanese economy, when all of the evidence suggests the lebanese economy, which your government oversees, is in chaos because of fundamental mismanagement and corruption over many years inside lebanon. nothing to do with immigration. no, this is something that we are responsible about, our mistakes, or the corruption. this is something for which we hold the responsibility. but this is something, you know, and having the syrians or any other population living in our country and taking the jobs of lebanese, is something else for which we have the right to call for the lebanese to have theirjob opportunities. it is called scapegoating. you are seeking to blame the other for the problems created by your own government.

and i answered you clearly that these are two separate issues. this is something, and this is something different. it does not mean that in all cases, the syrians should not be staying there. their place is syria and not lebanon. and you cannotjustify their stay in lebanon by saying that we have our economic problems in lebanon. before we end, though, i just want to bring back to the connection between politics and economics. you have a disastrous economy. your debt level is one of the highest in the entire world. your deficit level is still out of control. your unemployment rate is over 30%. lebanese people are desperate. you have the possibility because the saudis and the americans are talking about big assistance to lebanon. but they will only deliver it if they change their policy on hezbollah. are you prepared to do so? we draw our own interests.

we don't want our economy to be seized by a foreign desire on how to shape our foreign policy. we want an unconditional assistance. yes, we need it, from the us, from the saudis, from any friendly country. and we can accept gladly but not on conditions of our internal policy. you know, our priority is our national unity. you know why? because we faced internal warfor 15 years. we don't want this to be repeated. we prefer to have an external war but not to have an internal war. we don't want neither external or internal. that's what we want to keep our national unity safeguarded and we want to accept assistance from others and friendship with others without dictating on us how we conduct our internal policy. the problem is, right now... our national unity...

we don't want anybody to obstruct our national unity because this means internal conflict in lebanon. and this means repeating the conflict in lebanon and we want to avoid this. we will have to enter there. —— we will have to end there. gebran bassil, i thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you. hello there. temperatures are set to climb over the next couple of days. friday morning will start off with some fog patches in places but that should tend to lift and clear fairly quickly and then we'll see a lot of sunshine and some real warmth as well. high pressure is centred just about here.

you can see the winds rotating around it in a clockwise direction. the high pressure keeping the rain—bearing cloud at bay for the time being out in the atlantic. one or two fog patches across southern scotland. northern england could be the odd dense patch of fog, some potentially for northern ireland as well but as we go through the day, any fog will lift and we will see patches of cloud drifting northwards but a lot of sunshine across most parts of the uk and temperatures widely between 19 and 22 degrees. but with the south or south—easterly winds blowing across the uk, the favoured spot for high temperatures will actually be the north of scotland, particularly when you get some shelter to the north of high ground. could well see 23 or 2a degrees. now, as we go through friday night, it's going to stay dry. there will be long, clear spells overhead. we'll see more of a breeze at this stage so i don't think there'll be too many problems with mist and fog and it's not going to be quite as chilly as some nights we've had recently. some spots holding up in double digits. 1a degrees there for plymouth, for example, dropping down to 9 in glasgow and newcastle. but for saturday, we have this feed of air coming up from the south or the south—east.

pretty warm wind direction, fairly humid as well. high pressure holding onto the first half of the weekend but notice these frontal systems out in the atlantic. these will eventually make their move and turn things quite a lot more unsettled. saturday then, the most reliably dry day for many parts of the uk. a lot of fine weather, lots of sunshine too but notice the odd thunderstorm late in the day through the south—west of england, parts of wales, maybe northern ireland as well. temperatures, though, 21 degrees in glasgow. the south—east of england could get to 25, maybe 26 degrees. through saturday night, though, there's the increasing chance we could see thundery downpours drifting across western areas ahead of this frontal system. it is a cold front. it could be moving erratically northeastwards as we move to sunday. some uncertainty about where it will come to rest with its outbreaks of rain for the afternoon but ahead of it, another warm day, 23 or 2a degrees but behind that cold front, the air turns colder. it will feel much cooler and much fresher and that leads us into a cooler, fresher week generally for all of us next week

and there will be some wind and rain at times. it is going to feel quite autumnal.

this is the briefing, i'm victoria fritz. our top story: students have joined office workers in australia as part of a global climate change day of demonstrations and strikes. storm imelda brings widespread flash—flooding to the southern us. at least 1,000 people have been rescued. the young kosovans and serbs meeting for the first time, as pressure mounts to reopen peace talks, 20 years after the war. in business, can the brexit deadlock be broken? sterling surges to a two—month high as european commission chief