inquiry into president trump. the speaker of the house of representatives, nancy pelosi, accused him of violating the constitution and betraying his oath of office. he's called the move a "witch hunt" and " ha rassment". the uk's highest court has ruled that borisjohnson‘s decision to suspend parliament was unlawful. the prime minister says the verdict is wrong, but will respect it. a major operation is continuing to bring more than 150,000 people back to the uk after the collapse of thomas cook. around 16,000 passengers were repatriated on tuesday. emergency flights are set to continue for another ten days.

now on bbc news, it's hardtalk with stephen sackur. welcome to hardtalk, i am stephen sackur. it's tempting to ask what almost two decades of american intervention in afghanistan have achieved. even now, the death toll in the afghan conflict far outstrips the losses in syria and yemen, but the losses in syria and yemen, but the grim statistics tell only a part of afg hanistan‘s the the grim statistics tell only a part of afghanistan's the story, also important is the testimony of my guest today, kimberley motley, an american lawyer who went to kabul in a training capacity and stayed to become a respected litigator, fighting for the rights of the abused and powerless, especially women. does her experience give grounds for hope or despair?

kimberley motley, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me. i wa nt to ta ke hardtalk. thank you for having me. i want to take you back a little bit. i'm just wondering whatever prompted you as a young lawyer within the united states to sign up for this us government programme to go to afghanistan. it seems quite a remarkable decision to take a young woman? it definitely was. i went to afghanistan in 2008, basically to train and mentor defence attorneys. it really was a financial decision,

i have three kids, and i would be making more than triple my salary. you are in kimberley motley, now there is nothing wrong with milwaukee, but i just there is nothing wrong with milwaukee, but ijust wonder how much you knew about afghanistan? yeah i didn't know much other than what most people know from what they seen the news about it being a war—torn country. and frankly, i probably would have struggled to find it on the map. you since written a remarkable book. when you reflect on this early period, you say one of the biggest mistakes america made, and it was evident in my programme, was to employ a this way is the correct way mindset. it sounds like you weren't impressed with the thinking of what america was going to do in afghanistan. with the thinking of what america was going to do in afghanistanlj wasn't was going to do in afghanistan.” wasn't with impressed with our programme, it was a very top—down approach. so what was in the

programme, it wasn't about how the afg ha n programme, it wasn't about how the afghan legal system is, it is sort of like what the americans led the —— read the afghan laws to be. it was more like so—and—so of the constitution says this. within the training programme i was involved m, training programme i was involved in, afghan lawyers training to be better attorneys, in this programme. and wondering over time if you were wondering if this is notjust symptomatic of your programme but more generally the us attitude towards afghanistan. you seem to say there was a lack of local knowledge, a lack of context, a lack of nuance, a lack of context, a lack of nuance, a lack of sophistication in the effort to modernise, restructure and reform afghanistan.” effort to modernise, restructure and reform afghanistan. i always looked at my role being there was to support the afghan legal system, to support the afghan legal system, to support the afghan programmes. but i think a lot of people went over from america with a us versus them

mentality. their legal system should be like acts. so i think that was a problem, because cultural context is really important if you want people to be successful within their legal systems. —— be like. to be successful within their legal systems. -- be like. iwonder if language is important. you've indicated to me you had no indication of the language when you arrived. i was wondering about the day—to—day, empathetic contact you had with the afghans he was supposed to be training? everyone in my programme spoke english so i had a lot of direct contact with afghans, that was frankly rare compared to the demographic of the country. quite unusual. and they were more educated than the normal afghan would have been at that time, they we re would have been at that time, they were college graduates that we were working alongside. but they were

very good teachers, at least to me, teaching me what the afghan legal system was like and and things like that. and i did express my concern with frankly our embassy, my embassy, and i did express my concern with my managers when i felt my training was not effective at all. and you describe how you really felt overtime that you are out of sympathy with many of the americans on your programme, including some of the people who were your bosses. but you told them at some point, and this to me seems very important, i'm going to try and see what it is like actually inside and afghan court, rather than doing this all sort of based on paperwork and abs —— a bstra ct based on paperwork and abs —— abstract theory. they didn't really like that. they didn't. and me going to the chords, just to preserve —— going to the courts to observe, and

the prison system, it seemed like to me, something that everyone being sent there should do. they had programmes in the uk, from france, from all over the world of experts that were sent there to capacity build within the programme. i think generally speaking the people within the programme were generally well—intentioned, but theyjust didn't know how to make that connection with the legal system in afghanistan without completely understanding that it is a different courtroom. you put it, you twist a few arms, you persuade a judge, it was a novelty to get inside the courtroom after all of this dries dust training —— dry as dust training you had been doing. what was your impression of the judicial system when he saw it first up close ? system when he saw it first up close? the money that is being funded to afghanistan with the

justice system, it's not being spent in the way that is the most effective to help build the capacity within the justice is done. the first case i saw was of a man shackled from his hands and feet, and they brought him in with a bag over his head, and this is in the national security court where reportedly they bring terrorists. long story short, the prosecutor stood up, he read the indictment and he basically said that this guy was being accused of being a terrorist because he was running a taxi. in the taxi they found three people, and they found guns and weapons in the car. so based on that, they charged sky with being a terrorist, and it was all the evidence they had. there had no witnesses, he was not allowed to present evidence, so it was ridiculous he was even being allowed to be charged like this. there was in fact no trial at all? there was in fact no trial at all? there was in fact no trial at all? there was a trial, but it was a travesty. this is the national

security court, trumpeted by the americans that the afghans were serious about confronting terrorism. it is funded by the uk and us governments, so, yes, both governments. it was one of the situations where it was funded by our governments and well—intentioned, but they are bringing a lot of innocent people through to justify the money that was being spent. was not a moment when you saw this unfold, and of course as a lawyer, with very basic principles of your own, was this a point where you said i need to not just be a trainer, i need to be an involved player. they need to play a role inside courts in afghanistan if my presence here is to mean anything. going into that court started my wheels turning, it wasn't that moment where i said i need to ta ke that moment where i said i need to take cases, because i was still new

to the game. but when it really designated with me was when i went to the prisons and i talked to hundreds of people that were locked up hundreds of people that were locked up and saying the same thing that this man was saying, they were tortured, they didn't have an attorney, no witnesses, no evidence, they didn't even understand, they didn't even realise they had a right to anna tawney or what anna tawney was “— to anna tawney or what anna tawney was —— and attorney was, because that was a relatively new concept. i was ina that was a relatively new concept. i was in a lot of women locked up with their children for moral crimes, adultery and running away, which also was frankly illegal. i saw a lot of that, and that is when i thought i probably need to get involved. i met a lot of foreigners that were locked up, english—speaking foreigners that we re english—speaking foreigners that were locked up the didn't have an attorney, they were english speakers, they didn't even know what their charges were. then i sort of felt compelled to get involved. what's fascinating is you made this extraordinary leap, you may —— began to see the fundamental folds in the

system and said you wanted to do something about this. but here you are, a young american woman, not speaking a word of the local languages, how did you go about convincing, frankly, everybody in the system from the judges to the defendants that you wanted to work with to your us bosses, who presumably had some say in what you did next month how did you convince everybody that you should take cases, become a litigator in the afg ha n cases, become a litigator in the afghan courts? yeah, it wasn't easy. iquit my afghan courts? yeah, it wasn't easy. i quit myjob with the us department justice fund programme, because it wasn't good as this was something i wasn't good as this was something i was doing independently on my own. i quit that and i sort ofjust went to the afghan bar association, i went to the ministry ofjustice, i went to the ministry ofjustice, i went to the ministry ofjustice, i went to the supreme court, and i went to ask permission to represent people. i had claims in prison that i wanted to represent. from these conversations from the heads of these different legal institutions, they all vary rightfully gave me my

permission, and that is what allowed me to represent people in the courts —— they all gave me. me to represent people in the courts -- they all gave me. and you represented some extraordinary clients. cases that are difficult to read about, let alone deal with a face—to—face basis. let's start with a team that you dealt with, a young woman who was raped by her own cousin's husband, she became pregnant, she went to a doctor obviously highly distressed. the doctor then reported her and took her to the police. right. then she was the one who face criminal charges, very serious charges. she ended up being sentenced to 12 yea rs, ended up being sentenced to 12 years, i think it was defined under afg ha n years, i think it was defined under afghan law as adultery by force?m wasn't a crime that was codified in

the afghan law. it wasn't codified but it led to a sentence of 12 yea rs. but it led to a sentence of 12 years. right. she and her family then reached out to you... but i was wondering with a case like that, what could you offer?” wondering with a case like that, what could you offer? i thought i could offer legal representation. were there any afghans that could offer legal representation and, quite frankly within the culture, fight with that language that might have been more effective than you could? she did have an afghan lawyer, and this was frankly routine that afghan lawyers, if there was a rape victim, try to broker a deal with the rape victim and marry the perpetrator. that is what her attorney was trying to focus on. i was trying to focus on the law. the fa ct was trying to focus on the law. the fact that she should not have been charged or, frankly convicted of adultery by force. and i argued the semantics of the case and i argued the law. the afghan law. and that is what i do there i don't come in from

this morality approach and judge, i used the law with my clients. you have to have an extremely detailed knowledge of afghan law, you would have had to have gone deep into it yourself? absolutely. that is the job of a litigator, represent their clients and argue the law as it best relate into the interests of your clients. you so repeatedly i didn't see myself so much as a human rights lawyer, as myself very much an inside the courtroom litigator. you we re inside the courtroom litigator. you were just taking a grandstand overview of human rights in afghanistan, you were doing it on a case—by—case basis with an intimate knowledge of that particular afghan law that was relevant. exactly. to me, that is more effective. i definitely respect human rights lawyers, but i don't think petitioning, marching was going to help her. what i thought was that we need to legally argue this in court.

0ne need to legally argue this in court. one of the things they failed to bring, was according to islamic law, you need to bring four eyewitnesses to accuse someone of you need to bring four eyewitnesses to accuse someone of adultery stop there were not oh eyewitnesses, so i knew those were the semantics of it. who were the four eyewitnesses? and the fact that she was forced? she was raped, she should never have been charged with adultery in the first place. as we began this interview, you in the early days of your involvement in afghanistan, you talked about your doubts about the american mentality of sort of imposing a model on afghanistan and just assuming it would work without local knowledge. was there not a danger of you doing that too? you we re danger of you doing that too? you were so danger of you doing that too? you were so clearly an outsider. i may be wrong, you also made a point of not covering your hair because you regarded that as sort of misogynistic, a symbolic thing that you didn't need to do and wouldn't do. not quite. ididn't you didn't need to do and wouldn't do. not quite. i didn't not cover my head because i felt i was protesting. it's not obligatory.

it's not legally required for me to cover my head, it is not something i have ever done and ijust co mforta ble have ever done and ijust comfortable doing it. not something i've ever done and i just wasn't comfortable doing it so just wasn't comfortable doing it didn't do it. what about the wider point. maybe you are bringing some sort of cultural attitudes from outside and imposing them on the inside, just as you'd accused your federal employers of doing earlier in yourafghan federal employers of doing earlier in your afghan career. i think how i dress or choose to dress, that is not me imposing my views on people. leave that aside. in your mindset, you are a bright, smart young lawyer coming from the united states, you are now in a sense telling the judge, telling the court what is right and wrong in a very confident way and as you say, you were arguing the law. was there any sense in which you sometimes wondered whether you had the right to be doing this? imean, i you had the right to be doing this? i mean, i will be honest. in the beginning, i was sort of nervous how it would be taken with me

representing afghan women getting into the moral crimes cases. in the beginning, i was representing exclusively foreigners locked up in afghanistan and afghans started coming to me, asking me to them so one of the things i was wrestling with is, are they ready for me to represent in court. 0ne with is, are they ready for me to represent in court. one of the things is, it's the islamic republic of afghanistan. in order to be an effective litigator, you need to be co mforta ble effective litigator, you need to be comfortable with understanding the holy koran and quoting from the holy koran and using it to represent your clients and so i wasn't sure how that would be received with me doing that would be received with me doing that but at the end of the day, i felt like, i'm a lawyer, i had people who needed a lawyer and i knew that if i wanted to be effective in afghanistan, i either practised law in the way it's supposed to be practised in afghanistan or just not

supposed to be practised in afghanistan orjust not do it so i definitely brought in some of my cultural... it's undeniable. you dealt with extraordinary cases. 0ther dealt with extraordinary cases. other cases which involved rape, then evolve —— involved forced marriage, torture, terrible domestic violence cases. bunkley, you won a lot of cases. you caused a real stir inside afghanistan but you also upset an awful lot of people, individuals, families. and you did get threatened. you had one extraordinary incident where a grenade which thankfully did not go off was put into your apartment. did you suffer in terms of stress and fear, feeling intimidated ? definitely. there are times when i'm fea rful definitely. there are times when i'm fearful and stress, i'm used to stress. frankly everyone in afghanistan has a certain amount of

fear and stress. it's not like i'm special because i am also stressed as well, it's part of the job. it is reasonable that people, everyone wouldn't be super happy with me representing people in afghanistan. it's reasonable i would have in threatened and things like that, these are reasonable things i knew would come. so i knew from the beginning that i needed to decide whether or not i was frankly going to get into the boxing ring or not. you have a choice. afghans live with stress every single day but most of them simply don't have a choice. we all live with stress every day. there is stress, and stress. you we re there is stress, and stress. you were in the serena hotel in 2014 when a group of gunmen entered, nine people ended up dead, they were going up and down the corridors, you barricaded yourself in a room. that's a level of stress you wouldn't have had if you stayed in milwaukee. there are issues in milwaukee. there are issues in milwaukee. there are issues in milwaukee, 0k.

milwaukee. there are issues in milwaukee, ok. i mean, my husband was shot in milwaukee. before we finish, we can get back to your perspective on the us, having spent so perspective on the us, having spent so much time and understand but finish on afghanistan, do you think you made a difference? some of your cases were extraordinarily high—profile, you fought for the powerless, particularly for young women who have suffered so much abuse and afghan society. do you believe looking back on the last decade, you've made a difference.- a minimum, i've made a difference with my clients and that was my primary goal. i wanted to make a longer standing difference with more people but i set realistic expectations for myself. when i started representing people, for me, even though i did want good judgements, thejudgements even though i did want good judgements, the judgements that protected women, to positively affect other women as well, my main goal was, represent this client, this lady, get her out of prison so

definitely, i have made a difference. i hope i did. i am mindful that donald trump in recent weeks has been pushing the idea of a peace deal with the taliban, there was that remarkable, it never quite happened, but remarkable idea of having a summit with taliban representatives that camp david. donald trump wants to pull out the remaining us forces, 11,000, however many, say america is finished with afghanistan, the taliban will be drawn back, integrated into the system of governance. how do you as a lawyer on the front line in kabul feel that would work for afg hanistan's? feel that would work for afghanistan's? i'm concerned about the peace talks and frankly part of me understands why he pulled out because the taliban doesn't deserve a trip to the white house if they keep bombing things in the taliban really needs to agree to adhering to women rights in a substantive way. 0ne women rights in a substantive way. one thing that has been happening in the peace talks is they vaguely have

said, we are going to support women's rights as long as it is sort of consistent with islamic values. they say they will do it in the context of sharia, they will not ta ke context of sharia, they will not take young girls out of school but they will have both sharia law and respect for women in afghanistan. but that doesn't mean anything, it's like saying nothing because it is the islamic republic of afghanistan so the islamic republic of afghanistan so of course, people that aren't in the taliban follow women's rights as it's related to islamic law. the first three articles within the constitution of afghanistan talk about how afghanistan is an islamic country and it's a country that does not only just country and it's a country that does not onlyjust respect people that are of the muslim faith was also people of other faiths as well so i think the taliban in those five horrible years when they ran afghanistan, they were very specific about what women couldn't do. women couldn't go to school or get healthcare go outside without a man.

so in my opinion, they need to be specific about what women's rights they are going to adhere to. someone needs to hold them to the buyer and say, i going to follow for instance the elimination of violence against women act which is a law that detects women, that is consistent with islamic values. stop saying these vague things and they know what they are doing, they are being vague on purpose. i would take you back to the united states, you reference the fact that your husband got shot in the face in milwaukee when one looks at the us judicial system today, one sees as far as many are concerned a systemic dissemination against african—americans inside the system, whether it's killings by police, incarceration rates, the numbers of black people on death row. you can look at it in many ways. why with all of your passion and commitment asa all of your passion and commitment as a lawyer are you not determined to go back to the us and use your skills back home rather than in

afghanistan. this is the thing, i still practice in the us. if the % of my work is in afghanistan but the other 50% involves me back to sing in the us as well as other countries. for me, a woman in afghanistan that is raped and charged with adultery, that situation is not just charged with adultery, that situation is notjust confined to the country of afghanistan. that is a problem that is virtually on every single country where women are raped and there is little to know consequences. they may have different names for it but it is an issue so i feel like what really is at stake and what sort of my thing is, is to educate people about the law through my cases. i do that in understand, i do that in the us and i agree with you, that is one thing thatis i agree with you, that is one thing that is happening, and lawyers need to step up to the plate in afghanistan, in the us and in every single country and fight for their

clients because democracy is really being attacked and our due process rights are being attacked. we have to fight for it. the fight continues. kimberly motley, i thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you for having me. thank you very much. hello there. well, we had some really heavy downpours yesterday, lengthy spells of rain and thunderstorms pretty much summed up the day's weather. some really heavy downpour is the

cause some localised surface water flooding and that was one of the storms, quite near the bbc around the oxford circus area in london. in boscombe down in wiltshire, we recorded 59 millimetres of rain over the space of around about 24 hours and that is exactly a month's with the rain and with more rain in the forecast, september for a number of us forecast, september for a number of us is going to be much wetter than normal. here we are, the rain continues to move in across the south of england, southern parts of wales. gusty winds around 30—40 miles per hour. wind light of the northern england and scotland but rain around as well. wednesday, low pressure will eventually start to pull away and the weather will get a little bit less soggy for a time although there will still be showers before the next weather system works in from the west. the rain around southern counties of england. there will be some heavy showers around.

the next area of rain that is going to work its way to northern ireland. temperatures 18, 19 degrees, not feeling particularly cold on into thursday's forecast, the next area of low pressure follows quickly. across the uk, followed by south—westerly winds. still a lot of showers so even south—westerly winds. still a lot of showers so even as south—westerly winds. still a lot of showers so even as the rain clears its way through, the skies brighten up its way through, the skies brighten upfora time its way through, the skies brighten up for a time and further showers coming in and those showers could be happy with some under mixed in so some heavy downpours to come. temperatures falling at feud agrees, the bit cooler. england and wales, little over all change. friday, another unsettled day, more rain pushing northwards and east across the country again followed by showers through the afternoon. some of those heavy and thundery. temperatures on friday, the coolest weather across scotland and northern ireland, 14 or 15 celsius.

temperatures coming down a bit across western areas with highs of 16 in cardiff. into the weekend, it stays unsettled and quite windy with showers or lengthier spells of rain at times.

this is the briefing. i'm sally bundock. our top story: back to work at westminster. british mps are set to return to parliament after the supreme court said its suspension by borisjohnson was unlawful. president trump faces a formal impeachment inquiry over allegations he asked a foreign power to help damage a political rival. critics say he's violated the constitution. climate change could leave hundreds of millions at risk of flooding by the end of the century. a fresh warning from the un. and the boss of wework steps down with immediate effect, amid investor worries over his leadership style at the office rental firm.