hello. there's a battle between cold and mild air taking place across the uk at the moment to see this is bbc news, the headlines: the british prime minister, which wins out for the weekend. borisjohnson, has challenged the house of commons to approve spoiler — it is the a snap election in december. cold air that wins. it's already in place he suggested the british people across northern parts of the uk. should be given the opportunity 0n the dividing line to end the paralysis over brexit. between the two, before the cold air wins and heads south, some of us are about to get a lot in return — he's agreed to demands from parliament for more time of heavy rain through friday into at least early saturday, to scrutinise his eu from the moors of south—west england into wales, and northern england, withdrawal bill. from this waving weather front. finally, as it does clear, british police believe the 39people found dead by the end of saturday from south—east england, in the back of lorry in south—east england on wednesday that's when the cold air were chinese nationals. travels further south. now, as i mentioned, it's already in place the chinese embassy is in close across the northern half of the uk. contact with police, seeking clarification a touch of frost for you to start and confirmation. the day in scotland, officers have been given more time northern ireland and northern england. to question the driver, it is a mild start who's from northern ireland. the further south you are. it's a fine start for many of us. a few showers in scotland, wintry on hills. thousands of tourists have begun here comes the rain from the south—west and wales into the midlands, especially climbing one of australia's the west midlands, the eastern side best—known landmarks — of northern ireland uluru — for the last time. and southern scotland. the uk top—and—tailed a permanent ban on climbing it comes by strengthening winds, into effect from saturday. with coastal gales as well. indigenous people have long asked people not to scale the ancient sandstone monolith because it has so it is turning much wetterfor some of us, and we still have those big temperature contrasts across the uk,

such spiritual significance. but quite a lot of hill fog down towards the south—west of the uk in the mild air. now on bbc news it's hardtalk with stephen sackur. let's focus in on the rain, though, and these totals you're seeing here are some of the higher totals we may see in the higher ground a foundation in our move forward. this is the briefing. welcome to hardtalk. in the moors of south—west england, i'm victoria fritz. our top story: i'm stephen sackur. the welsh hills and pennines. armenia is a small state lower levels won't see as much borisjohnson tries again with outside strategic significance as this, but with that much rain to secure a new election, as eu ambassadors meet to discuss in a caucasus region beset falling for some, the potential for some flooding and perhaps another possible brexit delay. with tension and hostility. some travel disruption. there are some met office tens of thousands of people last year, popular protests yellow warnings in force, are forced to leave their homes, delivered a so—called details at the website. as wildfires rage through velvet revolution which saw so again, the possibility a new government of seeing some disruption, installed in yerevan especially to travel as we go california's wine country. into the start of the weekend. and this is how we start saturday. amid ambitious talk of reform. post—mortem examinations are to begin on the 39 people away from the area of rain my guest is the foreign overnight into saturday, who died in a shipping some clearer skies elsewhere minister in that government, in northern ireland and scotland, container bound for britain. still a few showers, and of course maybe a touch is it a bird? is it a plane? zohrab mnatsakanyan. is armenia looking east of frost too. no, it's an air taxi, or west for political and economic inspiration? coming soon to town near you — or is it? the rain does eventually move south on saturday, away from the wettest parts of england and wales, we'll explain in the to give a wet afternoon business briefing. towards east anglia and south—east england. elsewhere, brighter skies developing for many, with a few showers around, and the cold air pushing further southwards, still there in the far south—east by the end of the afternoon.

through saturday night and into sunday, get rid of this front, get rid of the rain. the blue is in charge. the cold air has won the battle. it's not going to be bitterly cold, and as you can see from this, on sunday, a lot of land showing up. zohrab mnatsakanyan, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. that means it's clear. a bit of patchy cloud, last year saw major political but quite a bit of sunshine coming through on sunday. upheaval in your country armenia, still a few showers dotted about, the so—called velvet revolution, more especially into scotland. after which you and your it's still quite breezy out there. government claimed that so yes, temperatures are coming down. 00:02:27,110 --> 2147483051:37:58,271 but by sunday, for many, 2147483051:37:58,271 --> 4294966103:13:29,430 it's drier and sunnier. you were working for a new armenia. sceptics will say it looks very much like the old armenia. so, what's different? why would they say that? because, for example, you were an official for many, many years, under previous regimes. you are a man of great governmental experience, you are not a new broom at all. i made a choice of my own, i made a choice to move from a diplomatic career to a politics — that's the major change. i took up the responsibility to share with the government in which i am and this

is a major change. the government has received a huge mandate from the people, from the public, as a result of the revolution. we have reacted, the government has reacted to those popular demands and received a strong mandate to deliver the change. the change and we have demonstrated the strong power of political will, in which, with political will, you can deliver very quickly results which were stemming from the popular demand. and those concerned corruption, those concerned fair, equal opportunities for all in social and economic life. those concerned the fair elections, and the biggest challenge we have today is the judicial reform. those are the various issues — it's onlyjust a short list of the various other issues that the government has been addressing. and you claim that work is being done very quickly, but we had yourjustice minister just the other day, mr hovhannisyan, announcing that the new agency to discover and investigate corruption crimes — the so—called

anti—corruption committee — won't be operational until 2021. absolutely, you know... we are in 2019! that's why i was talking about about the power of political will. we absolutely understand that, with political will, you can deliver results but that is not sufficient. you have to institutionally consolidate the system, which can react to those phenomena... does it take two years to set up a committee? no, no, no, this is something rather more complicated and more complex. you are working on institutional capacity, institutional capacity to address the phenomenon of corruption, and that is something more serious and, in fact, we are working on this notjust within the country, but also with our international partners, specifically the regional partners, the european union, the council of europe, others are very important... you're talking about the future but there is a hubris in your government you're talking about the future but there is some hubris in your government because the prime minister, mr pashinyan, told european meps not so long ago — and this is a direct quote, "we have managed to root out systemic corruption," he said,

but that is patently not true. why not? well, for example, only a few weeks after he said it, there were serious accusations put at the door of the head of the anti—corruption agency, the man that the prime minister himself had appointed. it did raise some very significant questions about whether the prime minister is really across what's happening in terms of official corruption. no, no, i do not know what you are referring to. but... as i am saying, within the country, within months, we have been capable to deliver a strong message that there will be no more suitcases carried to the powerhouse, there will be no more... you mean, suitcases full of money? yes, there will be no more... because that has been happening a long time in your country. no more unfair conditions in the economic—social field, no more of this phenomena and this has been addressed head—on... but you are saying you do not know what i am talking about, but mr sanasaryan, who is a close associate of the prime minister was put in charge of

the state—controlled service, the current anti—corru ption agency, and now he is facing charges himself. when the armenian people see this unfold, how can they have confidence... the system has been reacting. but my point is, that the prime minister assured europe that he rooted out systemic corruption before the latest round of allegation... the prime minister, the prime minister — let's not make it sort of simplistic. as i am saying, institutional capacity has to be in place. institutional capacity is our biggest challenge and the biggest priority today, to institutionally consolidate what we want to achieve in the country, what we have been delivering on the mandate of the people which has brought this government in power, that's our biggest challenge. will the rule of law come out on top? this is what we are absolutely aiming at. this is our mandate. there is no other priority for the government but exactly to deliver on those specific priorities — rule of law, independence, impartiality of the judiciary, creating a condition within which we can achieve that necessary

level of reasonable trust in thejudiciary. and you say it is about institution building, you say it will take some time. i understand that — anybody would understand that. in the meantime, we look at other signals to suggest there's real change as a result of the velvet revolution. one arena in which we must look for change is the state of the stalemated conflict between your country and neighbouring azerbaijan, over the disputed territory of nagorno—karabakh. i've seen no evidence that your government has brought new ideas, new imagination, to this conflict. thank you. look, when we achieved our objectives with the revolution, there was a question about what our foreign priorities... ourforeign policy priorities have been quite constant. this is about sustaining the national security architecture within armenia. nagorno—karabakh is a huge security challenge to armenia, to our people. for us, this is a question for,

first of all, a question of security of our compatriots, security of the human, of 150,000 compatriots. and we have engaged, our government has engaged without hesitation immediately in the process, and we have engaged in a constructive way. we're absolutely cognisa nt of the benefits of peace. we want peace, want to achieve that, but we want to do it in a way which sustains the reasonable parity of commitment of the parties so that we do address in a reasonable way, we do address our ultimate priorities of security and status for the people of nagorno—karabakh. you tell me, minister, you want peace. well, explain to me then why in august, just a few months ago, the prime minister made a very high—profile speech in which he declared, in no uncertain terms, "karabakh is armenia — period." right. and he wants peace? he does want peace because the prime

minister of armenia has been saying that the solution that we have to achieve has to be acceptable to the people of armenia, to the people of nagorno—karabakh, and the people of azerbaijan. we are waiting... given international law... we are waiting from azerbaijan a signal, a message which refers to the interest to our interest, which refers to our concerns which refers to the concerns of security of the people of nagorno—karabakh. they have been refusing to do that. i have to be honest with you, when a prime minister declares "karabakh is armenia — period," when he knows that flies in the face of international law, the position of the un and all of the independent international agencies, i am struggling to see how that is a move, a gesture towards peace. particularly when he also followed up by leading the crowd, during that particular speech, with chants of unification, nationalist slogans that had been heard in the ‘80s and ‘90s during the war with azerbaijan. and you're telling me this is a prime minister

that is devoted to making peace? no, i am telling you that because the armenian agenda, the pan—armenian agenda concerns nagorno—karabakh. armenia is following, is pursuing a development agenda, agenda of consolidation, and it doesn't leave out the people nagorno. that is a pan—armenian agenda. we are a nation which is within a territory of the republic of armenia but a nation of a global nature everywhere and... but you have to recognise international law, don't you? within that, nagorno—karabakh is a land with our compatriots. we haven't been claiming... 0h, there's no question that armenian people live on that territory, but that territory is not armenian. no, no, no, what i'm saying is that nagorno—karabakh is a territory in which our compatriots live. a territory in which we care about their security. we are the sole guarantors of their security. but we are committed to the peace process — committed to the peace process — in which the security and the status of nagorno—karabakh are ultimate priorities, and we are committed to the peace process. we have not been detracting from the peace process in any way... your closest military allies — hang on, minister, let mejust

ask you a question — your closest military allies in many ways are the russians. they have a military base on your territory, you've worked with them for a long, long time. sergey lavrov, the russian foreign minister, after this rather extraordinary statement by your prime ministerjust a couple of months ago, said, "the sides are making statements — serious ones. statements are heard that karabakh is armenia." he said, "it is the same as if the prime minister of albania said from tirana that kosovo is albania." so, even the russians are now saying your position is unacceptable. i have to repeat again, the prime minister of armenia has been consistently and consistently insisting that we need a message — a message of compromise from azerbaijan. but yours wasn't a message of compromise... hang on, hang on, we haven't been hearing... when the prime minister of armenia went out insisting that the solution should be acceptable to all the people, the people of armenia, the people of azerbaijan, and people of nagorno—karabakh, he has been receiving

a lot of criticism. 0ur government has been receiving a lot of criticism on that but we insist on that. we insist that compromise is the way out. the compromise in which there is a parity of commitment. i guess compromise. . . hang on, hang on. in that same speech he has been referring to the solution of the nagorno—karabakh within a separate paragraph in which he was quite consistent — quite consistent — with our approach on a compromise—based solution of the nagorno—karabakh. just a couple more things on this vexed issue of the conflict which of course began in the ‘80s and hasn't been solved. it seems to me it needs imagination to get out of the stalemate. are you prepared to be imaginative and, in the spirit of reconciliation, to acknowledge that over the last 20 years or more, the armenian military has been responsible for very serious abuses? the united nations has concluded that, the european court of human rights has concluded that, independent groups like

amnesty international have talked about the abuses of your armed forces. if you want to change the dynamic with this new government, are you prepared to say that, "yes, we have been responsible for serious abuses in the past"? you are twisting a little bit the narrative. the armenian... the state of armenia, happens to be the only guarantor of the security. please answer my question, minister. that's what i'm doing. we are the only guarantors. what we have is the security arrangement for the people of nagorno—karabakh, we have been responsible for that, we bear that security guarantee, the role of security guarantor. and we have been engaged in negotiations in a way that we work out the parameters... with respect, you're not answering my question. i will try one more time. the human rights watch report into the conflict, a big report — 1995. it said, "armenian forces, with the support of the republic

of armenia, were responsible for the majority of abuses during that period of war." and, as recently as 2017, the european court of human rights delivered 12judgements concerning armenia. 11 found the country in violation of the european convention of human rights. so all i'm asking is whether you are you prepared to say, "in the past, mistakes were made, abuses happened," and that you, as well as azerbaijan, need to express regret for that and try to seek a solution? that is part of moving forward, that is true. but, at the moment, we also have to figure out the way in which we can address our biggest priority, the security of our people... you do now express regret for some of the things your military did in the past? you know, at the beginning of the ‘90s, there was a situation when 40% of the population of nagorno—karabakh has been wiped out, 40% of the territory

of nagorno—karabakh has been taken control of. there have been abuses, there have been violations in a most outrageous way. we have a situation... let me finish. when the government of azerbaijan has gone so far as glorifying a murder of an armenian. not long ago, there was a situation where, in april 2016, azerbaijan attempted again an aggression against nagorno—karabakh. that only amplifies our sense of security. now, referring to your specific question, yes, iaccept that we need to move forward, all together, all of us, but it takes two to tango. it takes every party to engage in a constructive way. this is why the prime minister was saying a solution which is acceptable to all and we are waiting for the message from azerbaijan to reciprocate so that that spirit does get a foundation in our move forward. a final question on this and then i want to move on. but on the 17th of october,

the azeri government accused armenian armed forces of having violated the ceasefire across the line of contact between the two forces 20 times. no. is it possible that there could be a new surge of military conflict? this is what we are focused. and i think, you know, over this time since our government stepped in... and that's another very good indication of the seriousness of purpose on our side as the government of armenia, the new government of armenia. we have managed to establish some sort of trust, some sort of confidence in which over this year there has been a considerable reduction of ceasefire violations and we are focused on sustaining and consolidating that. that is one of our priorities and in fact that is what we have been focused on and continued to work with the azeri government, with authorities in the nagorno—karabakh. that's a very important part of the negotiating process. let's get to a much bigger picture now. it seems to me armenia faces a strategic choice in a sense over the next few years.

you've got your new government. you have to decide whether it is in the strategic interest of your country to put your priorities and your greatest effort into developing the relationship with russia and the eurasian economic union of which you are a part and i think you hold the presidency at the moment now... yes. 0r whether you actually refocus your efforts looking west to the european union and to nato in the long run. which are you going to do? our world is not bipolar. it's not that, you know, black and white. 0urforeign policy is based on consolidation of the partnerships for the integrity of our national security architecture. we have extensive relations with russia, that is an important dimension of our foreign policy and we work together in the eurasian economic union, in the collective treaty agreement 0rganization. equally, the european union is an extremely important partner and a security supplier to armenia and to the region.

and equally, the united states is a very important partner to armenia... i understand minister but frankly, to use a metaphor, if you try to ride two horses, you run the risk of a very grave injury. let me just quote you the words of your deputy prime minister who said recently, "since the coming of the new government, armenia has a completely different level of relationship with the european union." he said, "this new political team," that is you and your fellow ministers, "and this new political situation is now completely in line with the eu's views." but that really isn't true, is it? there is no contradiction. the european union has not been building relations with armenia in a way that would insist you have to have relations only in this dimension... our biggest showing an important priority for us now is to not build relations with one partner at the expense of another. this is a very difficult act but this is what is required. this will be a test of your reformist agenda and principles and values.

if you choose to stay wedded to putin's russia, the eurasian economic union, frankly you are going to probably continue many of the practices of the old regimes in armenia. centralisation, authoritarian rule, real problems with freedom of expression... or, you can adopt a different set of values, open yourself up, and embrace many of the values at the heart of the european union. that is your choice. i think you are making the same mistake. you are trying to see the armenian revolution is geopolitics. what happened was strictly an armenian matter. the revolution was a revolution of values. the revolutions was about democracy, human rights, about rule of law... this is what concerns armenia. and this is what we need for our country, what we are reacting with, to the mandate of the public. but there is no geopolitics in our revolution... so, when hillary clinton awhile back... no, hang on.

when she was secretary of state — this was awhile ago but nonetheless, it may be still relevant. she described the eurasian economic union as a move to quote, "re—sovietise the region led by vladimir putin." and she added, ominously, "we know what the goal is." that is a view that has been expressed and does not necessarily need to be shared. for us, the eurasian economic union is a 200 million market in which we have an access and, as members, we are also party and participants in the framing of the regulatory rules in the economic union, and we are participating in that. but it is not at the expense of what we do with the european union... crosstalk. in the european union we have a important value based relationship, we have a very important agreement the comprehensive and advanced partnership with the eu which has very significant political parts... i understand. sectoral reforms part... i understand and yes... crosstalk.

you have all these little deals and agreements. but i am talking about big vision, big future. there are many people, countrymen and women of yours, whose long—term dream is to see armenia in the european union or in a very close association with it and inside nato or in a very close association with it. you are not one of those people, are you? no—one in armenia is going to do something that will undermine... we are a security conscious people. we're not going to do something to undermine our security force. the bottom line, you stay with moscow. no, we are not staying with moscow! because in the end, moscow is the greatest guarantor of your security. we are not staying with moscow, washington, brussels or anyone else. we are only for the interest of armenia and that requires a difficult act. this is for the security and the interest of armenia, the national interest of armenia is what we are dealing with. this is what we reject entirely. the bipolar world — this way all that way. but we also reject... don'tjudge our democracy

by our geopolitical choices, because those choices are complex... and they are in integrity and we have a good understanding from all our partners whether this is russia, whether this is the european union, whether this is the us... if i may say so, you are walking a very delicate tightrope. it is difficult, i accept. before we end, just one very specific challenge. you live in a tough neighbourhood. you have, let us say, interesting neighbours. one of your neighbours is iran. you have an increasingly close economic relationship with iran. you are sharing a gas pipeline and all sorts of other projects. the americans are now demanding that you implement their sanctions on iran which would affect your economic relationship with iran. your prime minister and others in your government have said that they will not do that, that they are determined to maintain close economic relations with iran. so, what is your position? we have been engaged in a heavy conversation both with our iranian

partners and our american partners. you're absolutely right. it is a difficult act. a very difficult act when your partners are having problems of their own and we have the look out for us... crosstalk. this notjust a question of priorities... so what are you going to do. are you going to please the americans or will you displease the americans? we have neighbourhoods of strategic significance — georgia and iran. iran is the gateway, an important partner. it's a nation with whom we share centuries of relationships. it's a nation in which we have armenian presence, armenian heritage. it's a nation which is known to us very well. and we're of course, we are faithful to this relationship... crosstalk. so your message for donald trump, as it was tojohn bolton when he visited last year is "forget about it"? at the same time we have been very open with our iranian partners, figuring what is possible and what is not. because we are sensitive to our relationship with the united states and we're very sensitive about what's coming out from washington. but with our dialogue

with mr bolton, the dialogue with the administration has been exactly about how we combine our interest with what is happening in our region and that has been possible. it is a very difficult act. this is what we are required to do. to finish the metaphor, the problem with tightropes is you do yourself a great deal of damage if you fall off and you might fall off. if we stretch ourselves by way of going one way or another opening up for a major security vulnerability by way of making one choice or another, you would not think that if we do declare... tell me — if we do declare that we are going one way, is it going to work out immediately? or will we be in the queue for 10—15 years? we cannot afford security vacuum for 10—15 minutes let alone 10—15 years. and we have to end there but foreign minister mnatsakanyan, i thank you very much for being on hardtalk. 00:24:57,447 --> 4294966103:13:29,430 thank you very much.