welcome to hartog. they give having welcome to newsday. i'm samantha simmonds our top story: the us says its forces have killed in london, the headlines: the leader of the so—called the us says its forces have killed islamic state group, abu bakr al—baghdadi, me. it is extraordinary having you the leader of the so—called often described as the islamic state group, abu bakr al—baghdadi, often described as the world's most wanted man. world's most wanted man. a brutal killer, one who has caused in the studio given you are an undercover spy in the 70s and 80s at so much hardship and death, president donald trump says he was killed has violently been eliminated. during an operation by us an extraordinarily dangerous time in special forces in syria. northern ireland and you went in he said that al—baghdadi had blown hiding, you went in secret. why have you now, later in life, decided to himself up in a tunnel, killing three of his own children. come out of the shadows?” a state of emergency you now, later in life, decided to come out of the shadows? i think is because it's time. you know, i am 71 across california as wildfires continue to spread whipped now. and for the past, since 1985 until quite recently, i have been up by ferocious winds. reading books about 50 dead men i'm rico hizon in singapore. a state of emergency has been walking and how i saved and i'm also in the programme: declared across california as wildfires continue to spread, whipped up by strong winds. nearly 200,000 people in the north of the state have been going to think, ways and any —— when singing. ordered to leave their homes. and this story is trending on bbc.com. is anybody going to write a story vigils in vietnam, for some the lost rennaisance painting sold at auction for $26 million. about the truth of what has happened of the 39 people found dead the work by cimabue had been hanging in derry. i have read books about undiscovered for many years belfast and other places but i in a kitchen in france. think, 0k, belfast and other places but i think, ok, i belfast and other places but i that's all. think, 0k, iwouldjust stay with bbc world news. belfast and other places but i think, ok, i would just go back over my memory and see where it all fits in. my manuscript starts the day i was born. well, i am going to stop

now on bbc news, you right there because he use it stephen sackur speaks to former mi5 agent willie carlin on hardtalk telling this story that has been long kept secret and i think we do have to begin at the beginning because i think it is, for many people watching and listening to this, it will be very hard to understand how a boy, raised in a catholic family in one of the most welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. the long and bloody conflict in northern ireland was known nationalist areas neighbourhoods of euphemistically as the troubles, while one aspect of it got the city derry in northern ireland, a separate label, the dirty war. how you could, before you chose to become an agent, a spy, how you could originally decide to serve in the british, the british army, as a republican internationalist. that that was the name given to the covert operations nationalist. i was born in 1940, of the british state — both army and intelligence — republican internationalist. that nationalist. iwas born in 1940, i'm a war baby. lots of young boys infiltrating the ira, running informers and agents growing up my age, their parents, to undermine the republican their fathers, had been growing up my age, their parents, theirfathers, had been in the british —— british army. movement from within. theirfathers, had been in the british -- british army. catholics as well. catholics. when i inquired aboutjoining the army, my father stephen sackur interviews one of those agents, didn't see a problem because in willie carlin, who became an undercover spy within the political wing of the ira. 1965-66, didn't see a problem because in 1965—66, young guys my age from he's written a book exposing his secrets. 00:01:55,837 --> 4294966103:13:29,430 how does he justify what he did? derry. it was something that we did because our fathers did. and as you

say, it was before the troubles really started. but let us now move forward to the crucial year of 1974 when you had served nine years or so in the british army, you wanted to come home and you are approached by mi5, come home and you are approached by m15, by intelligence officers, asking you if you would go home and act as an agent informing on your own community and in particular, aiming to inform in the longer run on sinn fein, the political wing of the ira. how carefully did you think about the decision?” the ira. how carefully did you think about the decision? i didn't want to go home. i wanted to go back to germany and get a promotion. i was offered a promotion. but to go back a few months before that, my wife andi a few months before that, my wife and i had a little girl called sharon and she died of a cot death, six months. and it was decided she should go home to be with her mummy and daddy. she lived in a protestant area. anyway, when she came back, she was saying derry, is great, it's

no problems but i was trying to figure how am i going to, because she was bereaved, as was i. so i thought, i know what i will do, i will ask, give me word on the ground, there has got to be good information and i thought he would get me a letter and i would be able to give it to my wife and ensure that if i go dead if i go back there but the opposite happened. that information went up the ladder to mi5 information went up the ladder to m15 and they wanted me to meet them andi m15 and they wanted me to meet them and i did. and to be blunt about it, they saw you with all the background we have just discussed, they saw you with all the background we havejust discussed, as they saw you with all the background we have just discussed, as a they saw you with all the background we havejust discussed, as a hugely potentially useful intelligence asset and that is what you became. potentially useful intelligence asset and that is what you becamelj remember saying to this method that this man, listen, i am just a clerk in the army. he said no you are not. he said that blood is under wasn't what it made out to be and i was

told through the fes in journey that you had been writing. so he painted a different picture. so you had many reasons to hate the british but in fa ct reasons to hate the british but in fact you were embraced by the british and persuaded to work for the british. i suppose one of the important questions is, over the coming years from 1974 through to the 80s, how did you persuade the republican movement, including extremely senior figures like martin mcguinness who had been an ira commander at the very top, how did you persuade all these people to trust you? well, i settled down in a little house in the state on the waterside. republican. they came to me and wanted my discharge papers and wanted to make sure that i was really out of the british army. 0ne of the instructions i got from the people that sent me there... your handlers? yeah. get involved in

community work, have nothing to do with the ira. in fact they said to me if you report anything to do with the ira my people will have to toil people and you will be comparable — butjudgement compromised. get into community acts. —— compromised. i became the person to go to in that state if someone wanted something done. you are winning trust. it got to the point where sinn fein people and ira people used to come to me and ira people used to come to me and asked if they could do something that if i could do something about their mothers electric go over to a job centre and appeal this person was turned down for the benefit and i won this case. that these cases. and because of this community activism you did, you did get close to martin mcguinness. yes. but at

the time, he was a real big figure in the ira. yes, he was 0c northern command. and you, it seems, were tasked that tasked with finding out whether or not he was interested in developing a political organisation and approach to the northern ireland troubles. that is what the british wa nted troubles. that is what the british wanted to know. so how are you able to get it to martin mcguinness's head? well, during the hunger strike in the early 80s there was the election and anybody that was anybody, not even the people in sinn fein, were recruited to help with voting and stealing votes and stuff to get this man elected. so that was my introduction to working with sinn fein people. back in derry, a year later, the british government decided that they would be a northern ireland assembly and it was decided that martin mcguinness would

stand. so they needed canvas teams, they needed people who knew what they needed people who knew what they were doing. i had experience from bobby sands's election. from there i was recruited as one of the people, it was myjob to get martin mcguinness elected to the northern assembly in 1982 and even my handlers told me, and i have read it in the book, they said to me, look, it is vital that he gets elected to stop you do whatever you need to do. now, when you tell me that, that your british intelligence handlers we re your british intelligence handlers were telling you to ensure that martin mcguinness got elected, became a leader of republicans, both political as well as underground and military in northern ireland, it has perhaps played into a narrative amongst some in the republican movement that martin mcguinness must have been in some way or other an agent. he must have had links, ties to the british. he has always denied it but what do you think? well, i

have mixed feelings about it. martin mcguinness had all —— authorisation from the army council, way back as early as the mid—19 70s, to deal on a back channel with those people who we re a back channel with those people who were looking for an alternative way to solve this problem. do you think this is why the british saw martin mcguinness that from that very early stage they could do business with? of course was up you have to understand something. there is a famous quote. you think, well, why we re famous quote. you think, well, why were they trying to deal with maginness? so gerry adams was the man. well, in western part in 2001, all the parties were gathered there, including tony blair, and mark durkan, the leader of the sdlp at the time, complained about the amount of —— attention that martin was getting and he said, listen, mark, you have got it. the most famous quote that i remember from martin mcguinness was the ballot box will never deliver our freedom, only

the cutting—edge of the ira. will never deliver our freedom, only the cutting-edge of the ira. yes and in1982, we the cutting-edge of the ira. yes and in 1982, we used to drill up posters, martin's photograph was on it saying, "we will never achieve united through stormont". he continued to believe in the arms struggle. but if martin mcguinness had known that you were a spy, you are informing to your british handlers on every move, every thought he had, you would have been killed. i would have been dead. and in many times, i thought that i had been compromised. you have this thing in your head all the time. you lived in fear all the time. are used to get phone calls at one o'clock in the morning, you can you come and see me, don't bring your car. i thought it was certain death. but you are not just thought it was certain death. but you are notjust risking yourself, you are notjust risking yourself, you are notjust risking yourself, you are risking your family. to a certain extent, i was. you are risking your family. to a certain extent, iwas. did you are risking your family. to a certain extent, i was. did you think ha rd certain extent, i was. did you think hard about that level of selfishness? i didn't really, you know. here is the thing, it is hard

to explain, i was living on adrenaline. it is the greatest drug ever. in fact, adrenaline. it is the greatest drug ever. infact, i didn't adrenaline. it is the greatest drug ever. in fact, i didn't know what to do with myself when i left, i wasn't on the drug anymore. then i met journalists over the years and they told me the same thing. no more troubles, no more shooting, i am going to another life at the old centre. they were going through the same thing. you were telling me that your life as an informer, and agent, a spy. your life as an informer, and agent, a spy, it actually was the buzz you needed. absolutely loved it, my god. there is nothing greater than thinking you are going to get shot and then you go home to bed anything iam not and then you go home to bed anything i am not shot. every day. you can live on that every day? but i come back to the selfishness. they call it extraction from northern ireland, let's go back to this, they came a day in 1985 where you're handling that handlers, now you're handlers, it turned out to be a russian spy

and in prison, he had met some ira people and he told those ira people that martin mcguinness had a close associate who was working for the brits and it was you, willie carlin. you are in big trouble. the brits decided to get you out, they literally commandeered margaret thatcher's private plane, they brought it to northern ireland to ghost you out of northern ireland. correct. but you had to take your wife and your kids and they were given what, an hour or two to pack? kids, leave everything. what impact did you have on yourfamily — might dig that have? i came in and i thought, i have been doing that... did you say mary, i have essentially lived a lie with you for these last

nine years or whatever it was and now because of my lying, you and the kids have to get on this plane and you will probably never seen northern ireland again? welcome over the years, i thought, i wonder if i should tell her and then i thought ifi should tell her and then i thought if i tell and she has this information, if i am ever caught, they will shoot her too so i am never going to tell her because they we re never going to tell her because they were seven people who left derry, informers, and their wives were able to return because they were seen as not knowing very much about it. i thought i am not going to tell her. and that is why i didn't tell her. but here was i, this wee boy working in sinn fein and i was on the counter. i got promoted to what was then, i made a speech about raising funds because i was the treasurer. you are quite a big shot, yes. at the same time, i had seen some terrible things the british army did andi terrible things the british army did and i had seen some terrible things that the ira did so i mean, at one timei that the ira did so i mean, at one time i had kind of divide — make

divided loyalties and i had to remind yourself, listen, you are a soldier, stay focused. yourjob is to get this political thing even of this baby steps. when you had to remind yourself you are a soldier, you were a soldier in a war where your own family and community were on the other side. correct. you were, and i'm going to be blunt about it, you are a traitor and when you left because the brits had to get you out to save your life, when you left, you had to face the fact that you basically cut your ties and became isolated from your own home, pretty much forever. you are absolutely right. here's how i worked it out. i went in there to be one of them, i was never one of them. an informer is someone who turns on their comrades. ididn't go someone who turns on their comrades. i didn't go there. i was not between

my conscience. are you saying you weren't a traitor because you never pretended to be? that isn't entirely true. when i first left they had this guilt trip, but now when i look at things i think, wait a minute. in the long game look where martin got? he was the peacemaker. the baby steps we took to get him elected in 1982 made it possible for government people to talk to an elected representative. you can justify to yourself by saying i was one piece of that jigsaw which lead to yourself by saying i was one piece of thatjigsaw which lead to peace in northern ireland. absolutely. i can imagine it helps you sleep at night but it doesn't really address the problem you've got with their own family. one example, a lot of people won't know your own sister, doreen, when you were teenagers and you decided tojoin doreen, when you were teenagers and you decided to join the doreen, when you were teenagers and you decided tojoin the british army, she made a very different

decision. shejoined the army, she made a very different decision. she joined the women's wing of the ira. she was your direct enemy, your sister. i wasn't that close to my sister when i was little. you decided to throw in your lot with the british state, she decided to throw in her lot with the ira. but it isn't even about her, it's your entire wider family and community. they could never, and even today, in 2019, they will never forgive you for what you did. they are wrong. i'm meeting people all the time, members of sinn fein who say listen, at the time we hated you but when we think about it, you actually helped us. really? you have been forgiven? absolutely. what about again, i don't wish to delve into private pain. no, go on. you had a lot of loss in your life. 0h, geez, it's terrible. you lost two of your grown—up children. geez, it's terrible. you lost two of your grown-up children. yes. one to

a horrible blood disease. they died far too young. yep. and they were buried in northern ireland and you can even go to the funeral. you said "i couldn't even send flowers because they might be able to trace where i had sent them from."|j wa nted where i had sent them from."|j wanted to go to my daughter's funeral, i booked a flight to sta nsted and another one funeral, i booked a flight to stansted and another one to derry, and when i was waiting in the departure lounge bit was up beside me and said listen, if you go, you will end up in pieces. when my son died, they reminded me not to send flowers because when he comes from there is only one florist. and if they see something with your name on it, even my daughter cosmic headstone, we had to discuss what to put on it and it was decided not to put on it and it was decided not to put my name on it in case people find out who she really was and vandalise the grave. that is the sort of thing i dealt with. what does that do to you? well... you

kind of have to stay focused and stay look, i hadn't seen my daughter in15 stay look, i hadn't seen my daughter in 15 years. this is going to sound really cold. if you've been around someone every day and that person dies, it devastates you. but if you haven't seen someone for 15 years and you've only spoken to them occasionally, let's put it this way, it's not as hard to take. you know? you can handle it. listen, i've been handling that all my life. i've been to that many funerals it doesn't make sense. but does it, willie carlin, if you like it was worth it? absolutely. i only have to close my eyes and see tony blair, albert reynolds, in heasley, secretary of state for northern ireland, and just think to myself, somewhere along the road, if there is going to be a big boulder erected for that story, in

the foundations there is a little willie carlin. the other thing to think about is you also, if you cite your eyes, can see so much of the bad stuff that happened in the name of the british state during that conflict and you, i mentioned at the beginning, where part of this dirty war, the secret war of informers and double agents and people who were in essence giving secret information which is deadly to the deaths of many people in northern ireland. there is now a call forfull accountability. example, the intelligence operative known as stea k intelligence operative known as steak knife, he was ultimately planted at the very top of the ira's internal security operation. he was working for the british but it seems he commanded the assassination of a number of other british informers. does the truth need to come out? absolutely. but here's the funny thing about steak knife, i'd been

working with the team for over a year. steak knife is the codename of this operative are now the british government investigation into what happened to try and get accountability, it is as you said, operation canova, have you spoken to them? i've been talking to them for over a year, they got in touch with me. i wasn't really what they wanted to hear because this person known as stea k k n ife to hear because this person known as steak knife saved my life. it was him that tipped off the people who we re him that tipped off the people who were on the way to get me. the angels of death, as they called them. the leader of the headhunters, them. the leader of the headhunters, the nothing squad. they shot you in the nothing squad. they shot you in the head. he saved you? absolutely! now, that wasn't what they wanted to hear. however, iwas now, that wasn't what they wanted to hear. however, i was able to tell them where i heard it first in 1985,

them where i heard it first in 1985, the handlers that were looking after me in chatham. that led them to the handlers. the handlers than that on to peter, who was steak knife's handler, and that led to colonel ? in charge of the forces. this thing goes all the way up the top of steak knife. and this continues to be something where a lot of people in northern ireland want justice because it revives so much pain and hurt. i want to end with the thought of northern ireland today. do you think, given all of the focus that brexit has raised, the new questions of identity that come whether northern ireland cosmic economy is going to be aligned with the eu or whether it is going to be with the rest of the mainland, whether there could be a water in the rsc, all of this stuff. you think it raises new questions about the future stability of the place you are from? it certainly does. look, there is all

this talk about brexit, all they know is theirs. the people in ireland are united, it is economically united, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of transactions every day, up and down, across, children going to school across, children going to school across the border. farmers, the whole thing. if anybody does anything to interrupt that were divided or corner a piece of, it will destroy a part of the economy of the north of ireland. and the question for you reside there, in your still people in northern ireland who are prepared to kill to protect their identity and the community? yes. there are people circulating around who called themselves the new ira, they are only young people. 18—19 years of age. however, a number of ex—

volunteers, senior people, someone slightly younger than me have been, if you like, showing them how to do things. you could say training them. and because they didn't know how, they didn't know. and some of them are well—trained. and they are ready to do whatever they think they need to do whatever they think they need to do whatever they think they need to do in this new situation should the dup do this, should there be a border, should there be customs posts, should there be resman at the customs post, these people are ready. —— policemen. customs post, these people are ready. -- policemen. willie carlin, thank you for being on hardtalk. god bless you. thank you.

hello once again. it may have taken a time this weekend, but we've got a decent amount of sunshine. but it would have done nothing for the temperatures as you may well have noticed. and you can see on the bigger picture there's a lot of that fresher sort of regime on offer. and for the next few days, dry weather and sunshine as well but it won't do anything for the temperatures. it will be cold both by day and by night. that's the way we start monday morning, widespread frost, the first of the season on that sort of scale, you could be scraping the cars first thing up. a list a lot of sunshine for your commute and some dry weather, too. seems showers in northern scotland, maybe one or two in southern england, weather front close by to the far south—west, the cloudier with the odd bit and this the rain perhaps. changing the day, taking

you from monday to tuesday, the overall pattern doesn't seem to change very much at all except the isobars just beginning to open up there across the northern part of scotland. so that means less in the way of breeze. still a bit of an onshore here, so not overly warm. a frosty start again but a few showers for scotland, still about cloud with the odd bitten piece of rain across the south—western quarter. again those temperatures still struggling, nine, ten, 11. something about order for most of us. now, those weatherfronts haven't been around in the south—western quarter for a couple of days. a rather subsumed new set of fronts coming in from the atlantic with a bit more urgency and oomf. a chilly start across the greater part of central and eastern side and out towards the west maybe a dry start but eventually the cloud and wind and rain piling from the atlantic. just beginning to see signs of those

temperatures getting to tick up by a degree or two or so. through wednesday night on into thursday, eventually we all get to see some of that rain on that first set of runs, and then behind me there is a suggestion that new fronts may also develop. but they will just reinforce this change in weather regime cold and frosty two or three days into something a good deal milder. coming in from the atlantic but at something of a prize, more cloud and there will be some rain at times as well. thursday, a really murky start i would have thought. the rain over there over towards the east, a lot of murk in between these weather systems and then more rain gathering itself from the atlantic to affect southern scotland, north of england. but at least the temperatures are ticking up. 00:26:29,671 --> 2147483051:49:59,550 pretty much forever. you are 2147483051:49:59,550 --> 4294966103:13:29,430 absolutely right.