hello there. parts of england and wales look extremely wet with localised flooding in places and the risk the prime minister, borisjohnson, called on voters to get him the majority to be able of travel disruption all courtesy to deliver brexit. of this he told supporters in birmingham that once brexit was done, new area of low pressure a tory government could get on with which is going to park itself better education and infrastructure. opposition labour leaderjeremy across the uk and is very corbyn said he would be a different slow—moving front will bring some very wet conditions kind of pm, seeking are essential portions of the uk. early on thursday, the rain band power to share power. will be slowly spreading its way northwards so some places quite wet. democrats in the us have announced showers across the southwest they will begin public hearings and some showers across on impeaching mrtrump scotland which will be wintry next wednesday. so far, lawmakers have heard over the high ground. from witnesses behind closed doors. and video doing well on our wesbite is of a little bit of sunshine around police in california rescuing a bear and not quite as cold a start after it got trapped in a bin. as what we have seen the last few it got stuck after nights because we have cloud around. finding some food. too large to climb out of the small the rain band will grind to a halt openings in the lid, across parts of north wales, officers tried various the north midlands, northern england and the rain will be heavy and persistent at times. ways to free it. like i said, producing localised flooding and travel disruption in places and a key north—east wind

making it feel pretty raw so not pleasant conditions throughout the day on thursday here. now on bbc news, it's hardtalk, to the north of it, bright, probably the best sunshine for scotland. with stephen sackur. a few showers which will be wintry on the hill but quite blustery welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. here and some heavy maybe thundery last weekend in hong kong, showers across southern metro stations were torched, and south—western the chinese state news parts of england and agency was attacked, it will be quite blustery here, too. police fired water cannon and tear we should see some sunshine gas and 200 people were arrested. and slightly lighter winds. that is hong kong's new normal. it will be a chilly day wherever you are, just about 10 degrees across the south and single figure values in the north. like i mentioned, feeling chilly underneath the cloud and rain. how long can it go on without through thursday night, a slow improvement. that weather front with the band of rain continues to ease a major intervention from beijing? down and push towards the south and east so it will be a dry is there any way out of the impasse and chilly night across many between hong kong's government northern and southern areas and pro—democracy protesters? but where you have the cloud, well, my guest is a former senior not quite as cold, official in the territory's ranging from 2—6d. the pressure chart as we administration, anthony cheung. head into friday shows are hong kong's prospects bleak? an area of low pressure slipping off into the near continent. a bit ofa a bit of a hand back across the eastern side with this weather front

which will continue to bring a fair amount of cloud and one or two showers at a ridge of high pressure builds in across the north and west to here, after a chilly start, it should be a fine day with plenty of sunshine around. much of the country should see a bit of sunshine apart from the east of england. as we had through friday night, eventually we will see the cloud anthony cheung in hong kong, and the rain in the south—east clear welcome to hardtalk. you're welcome. away and it will be a cold night under clear skies with a widespread frost. from the outside, it looks as though the next weather front will arrive hong kong is sliding ever deeper across the west though not into chaos, is that the way it feels quite as called for northern ireland as it will be across much of to you, inside hong kong? well, it's really distressing britain. into saturday, a cold, to see what's happening. protests and violence seem to be frosty start for many and the rain continuing and the whole community will spill in from the west many areas and on sunday, it is a gradual improvement is getting very anxious. with some sunshine developing. some young people feel they don't see a breakthrough. they don't see light at the end of the tunnel. and indeed, for the whole city, we have yet to find a political solution to the crisis.

and this is really very worrying. and we can see that the central government in beijing is also getting very anxious and is worrying that hong kong might get out of control. and therefore, it has been emphasising the need for national security for stability. but unless a political solution is found, i don't think that prospect will come about very soon. do you admire the tenacity, and one could say the courage of the mostly young people who still take to the streets, despite knowing they may well face water cannon, tear gas, baton charges and rubber bullets? my feelings are rather mixed. on the one hand, i can see that many young people taking part in the current protests, they have their objectives, they want to see hong kong becoming better.

but at the moment the methods they are using, in my view, are not really achieving too much. because as you can see, anger, violence, can also breed more anger and violence. and we see the whole society becoming more polarised and it appears to me that among many protesters, they don't really have an endgame. they know what they are not happy about, but i don't think they have a clear approach as to how i'm kasia madera in london. to bring about a better outcome. the headlines: if i may say so, mr cheung, the uk's election campaign gets formally under way, what really interests me is that but prime minister borisjohnson's big speech is overshadowed by resignations from while it is true it's mostly young both main parties. people on the streets confronting president trump's impeachment inquiry goes public. the police, what is also evident after weeks of testimony behind closed doors, is that there is a vast swathe hearings are set to be of hong kong opinion, including we could say middle—class be broadcast live. people, parents, professionals, i'm rico hizon in singapore. from doctors to teachers, also on the programme: all sorts of people

who are with the students in terms of sympathy for their demands for a change in hong kong. has hong kong become a city and recently we spoke of permanent protest? we investigate a city polarised by five months of unrest. to somebody i'm sure you know, and levelling the playing field. australia's female football team strike a landmark deal to earn equal anson chan who was chief secretary in the transition period, and for the first few years of post—1997 governance in hong kong. and she says "the disaffection with the current administration in hong kong spans a very broad section — spectrum of the community, prompting unprecedented protests from professionals and legal, educational, medical, social services. from the elderly to mothers of young children." so this is notjust about radical young people. you are right. i think it's a valid observation that the majority of the community is not happy about how

the government is performing, particularly in the way that the current crisis is being handled. but having said that, still, i mean, among those who are not happy with the government, they have to really find a way out, and that outcome can only be worked together with the government, and probably there is a need to create more room for trust between the protesters and government, and also between hong kong and the mainland. but maybe this hong kong government isn't up to the job? i'm mindful that a couple of months ago you went to a so—called "brainstorm session" with senior officials, including chief executive carrie lam. did you tell carrie lam that frankly it's time for her to go? she's part of the problem, not the solution?

at that time i did not really comment on whether she should leave the scene or not, but at that time i emphasised the need for an independent enquiry. because that must be a very important step towards reconciliation. and indeed, the vast majority of the companion in hong kong is in favour of an independent enquiry. but of course the independent enquiry is not the solution itself. the consolation is the process to bring people together. let me stop you, mr cheung, because some people won't understand what you mean by an independent enquiry. of course the protesters want a full, independent enquiry into what they called the brutality of the policing of the demonstrations going back now several months. it seems to me you're saying something slightly different. you want an enquiry which looks at violence, notjust in terms of the policing, but also in terms of the demonstrators. in some ways, you're drawing an equivalence between the two,

which the demonstrators regarded as completely unacceptable. well, i think for those who are in favour of an independent enquiry, they want to have an enquiry that is impartial, fair, and the enquiry should look at the whole saga. of course police actions unavoidably will be a part of what is to be investigated. but all those factors, circumstances, that have led to the escalation of the crisis, in my view, should be looked at. because this is the most serious crisis of governance in hong kong ever since 1997. and indeed, since 1967. right. well, that brainstorm session where you talked about the independent enquiry — the need for one — was back in august. we're now here in november, and there still isn't an independent enquiry. carrie lam in fact has hardened her position, she says "it's quite simple,

the situation we face now is anti—government violence, the most effective solution is to tackle the violence head—on, appeasing the violent rioters is not a solution." so, she is toughening her stance. so i ask you again, is it time for her to go? i think if any government faces the kind of crisis, challenge, that is now happening in hong kong, there is a need to consider how to reshuffle the government in order to open a new page in terms of post—crisis remedial work. reconciliation reform. of course the timing itself is a tricky one because it is not just for carrie lam herself to decide what to do because beijing obviously has a view. and the current crisis has already escalated to a level where beijing feels it's obliged to intervene and indeed, beijing has been much more vocal over the last few months.

indeed it has. in previous months it made a point of showing people in hong kong that military forces were gathering just beyond hong kong's borders in mainland china, and there was a clear message there. and in the last couple of days, we've had statements coming out of the communist party central committee meeting in beijing in which they have talked about, and i'm going to quote them here, "systemic changes to strengthen the communist party's overall right to govern hong kong in order to firmly safeguard national sovereignty and security. "

the signals coming from beijing now are quite clear, they've had enough and they are contemplating a major intervention in hong kong. how worried are you? beijing is taking the responsibility for governance in hong kong, it's not an entirely new message. because last time there was about — 2003, after the national security legislation bill itself, and article 23 of the basic law led to major protests of 500,000 people in hong kong. in the aftermath of that incident, actually the central government of the communist party did say that the communist party is responsible, ultimately, for the governance of hong kong. and i think it is fair enough for the central government to do so. hang on, if i may say so, in your effort to be emollient toward beijing you seem to be forgetting the fundamentals of the one country, two systems principle. there are supposed to be two systems. hong kong is governed differently.

the whole point is that hong kong has autonomy, and now beijing seems to be threatening to undermine that very principal of the two systems. well, i'm not saying that beijing should be running hong kong on a day—to—day basis, but what i'm trying to do is to understand why beijing has to say what it was saying. beijing is obviously very worried about the situation in hong kong. and i think the ultimate political solution has to allow the people in hong kong to have a strong sense of self administration under one country, two systems. and many of the problems we are now facing in a way indicate tensions, mistrust within this framework. and both sides, i think hong kong and the mainland, need to really reflect on what has gone wrong. well...

because ultimately, hong kong's solution for the future cannot get out of the overall china context. mr cheung, isn't the problem for — if i may say so — establishment figures in hong kong such as yourself, who have a long history of serving the hong kong government, of course, ultimately the paymaster of which is the government in beijing. the problem with people like you and the language you use is you try to find a middle ground, you try to be extremely delicate and diplomatic, when, as you say, if you accept that this is fundamentally a political legitimacy issue, you are either for democracy or you're not. so let me ask you, are you for universal suffrage and a meaningful democracy that gives every hong konger a legitimate choice as to who should be chief minister and who should be in the legislative council? yes, i've always been in favour of electing both the chief executive and the whole of the legislative council by universal suffrage. right.

well, thank you for being so clear. in that case, you're on the side of the protesters, you're not on the side of beijing, because there is no way that under the current governance of carrie lam, who of course has her hands tied by china, there's no way that the hong kong government is going to grant a meaningful universal suffrage with a truly representative range of candidates for chief executive and full, universal suffrage for the legislative council. it's just not happening. as far as the chief executive is concerned, under the law, even for electing the chief executive by universal suffrage, there has to be a nomination mechanism. there has to be a nominating committee so in order to achieve that ultimate goal, i think we need to talk to beijing because ultimately beijing has a vested interest in hong kong.

we need to elect beijing, have sufficient confidence in electoral democracy in hong kong. of course, we know that... but with respect, you know as well as i do, and it would be nice to hear it from you, you know beijing isn't interested in giving hong kong genuine meaningful democracy. you know it, don't you? hello well, from day one, the central government leadership, i mean, i'm talking about deng xiaoping back in the 1980s, they didn't really believe in western—style democracy. but in the basic law, it was committed in the i990s that ultimately hong kong should have direct election of a chief executive by universal suffrage as well as the direct election of the whole of the legislature. but of course, we need to really work on beijing.

how? how do you work on beijing without actually doing what the protesters are doing, which is taking to the streets and saying, enough, we're not prepared to take this anymore. the basic law gives us the right to a meaningful democracy and china will not recognise that. it seems to me that despite your politeness and your desire for middle ground and avoiding confrontation, in essence, your message about democracy is the same as the students in the street. well, i would not deny that the students protests is a way of expressing their preference or the aspiration for democracy but ultimately, after demonstration, after confrontation, you still need to sit down with beijing. i can't see continuing to demonstrate...

put it this way. there is nothing to talk about, and it's obvious, that even the forthcoming local council elections in kong, there are systems in place which weed out genuinely radical voices who are demanding democratic change. i'm thinking of course ofjoshua wong who wanted to put forward his name as a candidacy in the local elections. he has just been told he cannot stand. he has been barred from standing on the council elections and as he puts it, "i have been barred from my role championing democratic rights in hong kong and engaging on the issue on an international level. this is nothing short of political screening and censorship." so i come back to the question, what really, honestly, is there even to talk about what now with beijing, or carrie lam? we need to... i'm not happy with the current

situation and i think it's very unfortunate that candidates for elections have to be politically screened that way but having said that, let's put the so—called disqualification in context. it only started after the 2014 0ccu py central protest. it started after the newly elected legislatures when they took the oath of allegiance to the basic law. they made fun of the prc, they made fun of national identity and i think that was the beginning of worsening relations between hong kong and the mainland and the growing distrust between the two sides and therefore, i think we really need to regain trust on both sides. i can see the vicious cycle. it is a vicious cycle.

let me give you some statistics which probably give you more pause for thought. these are from surveys done in recent months of the mood in hong kong and they compare the figures from 2009 with figures in 2019 today. the number of people confident in the one country, two systems model has fallen from 68% to 33% and those numbers of hong kong people who feel themselves first and foremost to be hong kongers is up from 37% to 52% and those who feel themselves to be chinese is down from 24% to just 10% so what you have is a hong kong population which is increasingly feeling separate and different from the population on mainland china and yet in economic terms, the chinese appear to believe that they can integrate hong kong ever more closely into the mainland economy. you've got a fundamental dichotomy here. i'm not surprised with the trend that you've just made reference

to and indeed, there is a lot of hostility within hong kong towards the mainland. there is a lot of frustration from many people towards the central government but again, every day, we still need to make the best out of one country, two systems. it's the ultimate future of hong kong. we need to seek mutual understanding and obviously from the mainland's point of view, whou would like to integrate hong kong more into the motherland, so to speak, but from the hong kong people's point of view, they would like to be served their legacy, their rather unique institutions, their rather unique identity and that kind of mutual accommodation originally was intended to survive under one country, two systems.

there were lots of instances which haven't been met and i wonder if you would take some personal responsibility here for the growing feelings of alienation and disaffection in hong kong because after all, from 2012 until 2017, you were a de facto minister of transport and housing in the hong kong government and housing in particular has been a totalfailure in hong kong. many young people have no prospect of ever having their own home, such is the housing crisis and the unaffordability of housing. you said you would fix it, you didn't and you, if i may say so, are one of the reason why young hong kongers feel like they have nothing left to lose. housing is indeed the number one social problem in hong kong and in the last government,

which i served, we realised that this problem has to be resolved but unfortunately we face a situation where there is a mismatch between supply and demand. supply was very much in shortage because a lack of development and demand was very solid, both user demand and investment demand... because you were so in hock to big investors from mainland china and elsewhere, determined to sell off lands to private housing and other developments that you weren't prepared to put money into social and affordable housing. it's always been hong kong's story in recent years and i come back to this point, that young hong kongers have had enough and the only way to get a hong kong they would like to see is to have more democracy, more accountability and that means they have to take to the streets. well, that kind of sentiment is astute but let me put it

on record, the last government, we were not short of money for public housing. we had a housing fund of over hk$75 billion for housing but unfortunately we did not get enough land and that is a more complicated issue but i can really understand that young people, they want more democracy, like young people elsewhere and this is something that must be dealt with and therefore in my opening remarks in hong kong, i said we cannot get away from constitutional reform. yes, well, you at least are clear about that but let me ask you before we close about the future and about how bleak it may be for hong kongers going forward because you are now in recession, i think the last quarter saw hong kong's economy contract by 3% and more and the outlook economically in terms of tourism and other things is grim. you have a major problem with beijing. the surveys i point to suggest that hong kong is one of the gloomiest populations in the world today. do you share that gloominess? are you fearful for your territory? if the current situation does not

stop, if it continues for another half—year, then indeed hong kong's economic prospect is really in trouble. at the moment, we are in technical recession and we have negative growth over the two quarters but if we are able to find the way out to ease tensions, so that people can begin to have more trust in working together, i think the fundamentals of hong kong, whether in terms of the economy or the community spirit, i think we are able to do it quite easily but the important thing is, we need to have some trust, some confidence in each other in the future.

anthony cheung, we have to end there but i thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk from hong kong. 00:25:08,164 --> 4294966103:13:29,430 thank you.