iain watson, bbc news. welcome to bbc news — i'm lewis vaughan jones. our top stories: this is bbc news, the headlines: at least three people have died in bushfires in australia, at least three people have died as forecasters and firefighters warn in bushfires on the east that more dangerous weather coast of australia. is on the way. weather forecasters and firefighters our real concern is actually moving have warned that more dangerous into tuesday where we are expecting weather is on the way, temperatures in the high 30s, early 40s. and told people at risk to leave humidity down to single digits for safety now as they might not be and winds gusting upwards of 80 kilometres an hour. able to provide help. bolivia's political crisis deepens, ceremonies have been taking with the opposition place in germany to mark refusing the president's offer of dialogue to resolve the election the thirtieth anniversary dispute, and the armed forces saying of the fall of the berlin wall, once a potent symbol of the cold war divide between east and west. they won't intervene. chancellor angela merkel, who grew up in east germany, called on europeans to stand up for freedom, tolerance around two million people in eastern and human rights. india and bangladesh are told to leave their homes as a powerful cyclone makes landfall.

rescue operations continue after some of the worst flooding in the north of england in recent years residents in parts of northern england and the midlands, are still being rescued from areas inundated with water. there are seven severe flood warnings still in place on the river don in south yorkshire which burst its banks. you're up to date with the headlines. now on bbc news, it's dateline london. hello and welcome to dateline london. i'm carrie gracie. this week... we devote most of the programme to discussing europe, since the fall of the berlin wall. but we'll leave a few minutes at the end, to distil week one of a british election campaign. my guests today, stephanie baker

of bloomberg news. italian journalist, annalisa piras. author and long—time correspondent for die welt, thomas kielinger. political commentator alexander nekrassov. 9th november 1989. the day the berlin wall came down. those who poured across it made history, others watched and wept. "europe whole and free" proclaimed the united states. some observers heralded the end of history, a conclusive victory for western liberal democracy. but three decades on, is europe still celebrating? that is the question we will consider but before we do that, thomas start us off by giving your recollection of that day, because of course you were already halfway through your adult life and indeed the wall

had been there for all of your life up until that point. so when you saw come down, how did you feel? i felt throughout, a must say. i participated in the bbc newsnight programme the night after it fell, asking a east german dissident and myself what i thought of the uniting of the country. i was honest and said i did not know much of east germany. i lived on the western side and never visited east germany in my previous life, i had never had any notion. i could not believe it was happening because we had been brought up on the basis of thinking the unification of germany can only happen as part and parcel of the unification of all of europe. in fact, it was thought to be dangerous for germans to go it alone as it were and unite an unsolved division of europe. so i was a bit apprehensive but the overjoyment that seized all of us,

after the show on the 10th of november, a taxi brought me to the berlin wall, our optimism did not turn out as we thought. we were disabused of some of our top of what peace and everything would mean. we will come to that in a moment but first, recollections, alexander you were a man in your early 30s, you grew up on the other side of the iron curtain, did you dance like a dervish when you saw the wall come down? first of all, i need to say something important. i think there is a misconception that the wind of change came from the west and even eastern europe, it came from the soviet union. because the change started in the soviet union. don't forget the changes started their... the attempt to liberalise? yes.

so the people were ready for something, it was not a surprise for us like it was a surprise for thomas. something surprise for thomas. had to happen, something had something had to happen, something had to give. this is the important part. people do not realise in the west that the people in the soviet union do not like communism. they were under oppression by communism. the reason why stalin killed millions, they were against communism. it was not like he wasjust in this indiscriminately killing people. his regime was despised and hated. that is why in russia and the soviet union generally, they were ready for something to start happening. that's why, an important point, there was no bloodshed. it was a peaceful revolution. and it was as celebrated, that moment in russia? well, it was not celebrated like in germany, but it was expected. nobody was shocked.

annalisa, you were a young woman. just entering your adult life. what did you make of it? you —— for me, it was a life changing moment. for me, it was a life changing moment. i was a young journalist starting my studies in political science and to the moment of the fall of berlin wall was the key moment where ideologies came down. it was the end of the mirage of communism and ideas about, they were already not really powerful. something else came to fill that empty space. i remember very vividly the words of the playwright who became the leader of the velvet revolution who was proposing an idea of europe which was based on a new humanism, called a moral idealism. so i became passionate about the power of europe to become a kind of solution to

the illusions of ideologies. and europe was about pragmatism but ideals. so for me i started to believe in a europe as a kind of solution of most of the continent's problem. and it came true with a succession of... we were all disabused of this hope because two years after the fall of the wall, the war in the balkans began in europe did not appear to be the place where peace would break out... we will come to that, but stephanie, young generation, same as annalisa, that event brought you to europe? i was one of 100 or so americans who got on a plane and moved to prague right after the velvet revolution and the berlin wall came down and spent four years there and went on to moscow and lived there for several years as well.

for me, coming access, the fall of the berlin wall is such a strong image but there was so much else going on in the region at the time which overshadows that. it all began in poland around a round table that led to semi—free elections there. hungary played a huge role, when they turned off the barbed wire fence which allowed some east germans to escape and then the velvet revolution in what was czechoslovakia followed by the violent overthrow of ceausescu and rumania. so there are so many changes that happened and we are focusing on ronald reagan who gave the famous speech, i think the thing that gets overlooked are all the brave east europeans who risked everything to try to bring about political change. those are the people i spent most of my formative years

with at the time. thank you for reminding us of them. now, let's fast forward. as you said at the beginning thomas, everything has not lived up to the hopes. germany has in a way tradition for the reunification of germany, the difficulties of identity over the intervening 30 years. you referred to the yugoslav wars, we have seen so many other problems. tell is what you think is happened most importantly for germany and german citizens in that time. we have to recognise 30 years is not a long time to bring about a healing process. look at america, that took over 100 years after the civil war between north and south to become a united country. the same is happening in germany, east germans tend to feel neglected or overlooked almost. you can put it down to some hard—nosed facts, not a single

east german sits on the board of some bigger companies. not a single east german is head of the university. there is a sense of nostalgia going back to how life was simple, controlled yes, not free, but comfortable, amongst friends and so forth in the old established order and there is a sense that you wanted to go back to some of that humanity as it were, east germans think capitalism is unhuman and too raw and too cruel and they had a more human sort of life with neighbours and things like that. the alternative for germany coming to the fore in many parts of east germany, it has that imprint that it is a new voice of nostalgia and the left—wing party which has inherited the old sed, the communist party, all banding together

to create a sense of know, east germany is somewhat different than west germany. so we have to be patient and not artificially impose too much of homogeneity but allow east germans to come to leading positions. we have an east german chancellor, but that is an exception. the rest of east germans don't feel they are sufficiently represented in the all—german society. annalisa when you hear thomas talk about the east and west germany, do you feel the same about europe as an entire entity? do some of the same problems apply? they do indeed. if we look at the real issues now in this european integration project, today are the same, there are issues of division, misunderstandings, so they do apply, and what we're seeing is these kind of identity issues are getting deeper. so if there is one lesson looking

back and looking where we are now, it's 30 years ago, this continent united around some extraordinarily important values. freedom, democracy, human rights. how can we go back to the moment which was a moment of euphoria and history where the content was coming back on its common history. how can we go back for? because at the moment what we're seeing is a return to tribalism, nationalism, things which divide people. select that is an important reflection, it is to get back to that extraordinary feeling of we are back together where we belong. alexander, how do you think russia sits alongside that? because this question of values, russia has had a different experience in the past 30 years? for russia, 30 years later, the euphoria is over. i think that all expectations that something will change, that europe will become united,

the west will become friendly, that's gone. especially after events in ukraine. i think we are now at this stage when we have a semi cold war back. there are bits of hot war happening, actually, in parts. the information war between east and west, russia and the west, i have never seen anything like it during the cold war. we are witnessing a confrontation. and i think that mistakes were made on both sides. i think the expansion of nato eastwards was a huge mistake. because the whole point of that transformation 50 years ago was for the military alliances to stop and maybe even diminish. that happened, but nato aggressively is moving and already on the borders of russia.

what can you expect russians to think of that wonderful, brave new world? stephanie, let's bring a kind of us perspective to this table because to some extent the post second world war shape of europe was underwritten by the united states and us diplomacy has been important and us military presence has been so important and yet we now see an administration which according to some european leaders is actually retreating from europe? right, and i assume you're alluding to the interview with emmanuel macron, the french president in the economist this week where he referred to the nato alliance as ‘brain—dead', i believe is the word he used. i think that is an accurate description of perhaps the rhetoric

of what trump has said, and kind of... especially given what donald trump has said about how europe needs to contribute more. i think it was very much a reaction to the west are all of us troops —— withdrawal, allowing turkey to roll in. that being done without consultation with the us‘s european allies, they obviously felt blindsided by that. but let's remember the us is still the linchpin of european security. it still contributes, accounts for about two thirds of nato members‘ defence spending, has thousands of troops still in europe. provides key missile defence system for europe. but i think what he was acknowledging was the reality that europe does need to start spending more on its own defence which is very much what trump wants to hear, right? but the reality of that is even if europe steps up with his plan to create a security framework, there will still be huge gaps,

like the missile defence system. and that it remains a real challenge regardless of whether or not trump is re—elected. we saw even before he was elected that 0bama was with drawing a bit from the international sphere... —— we saw even before he was elected that 0bama was with drawing a bit from the international sphere... is there a shift here, almost a recognition of some of the point that alexander was making? that military alliances pressing right up against russia's backyard, as it would like to see it, are not what the us want to be doing any more? part of what macron said here is an affront to members of central european countries, particularly the balkans and poland to view nato as essential for their own security. so for macron to be saying that he is almost undermining the support he might need from those countries. for greater european integration.

what we have seen is some of these central and eastern european countries pushing back against those efforts at closer european integration, moving towards a more nationalistic... i think that is a misreading of what macron was doing. i think what he's doing is try to make nato stronger, not weaker. what he's doing is saying nato as brain—dead because it was born 70 years ago, it is obsolete, as donald trump said at the beginning of his presidency and we need to reimagine it in a way that would take in account what alexander was rightly saying, that there have been mistakes. there have been mistakes in pushing nato to close to russia, mistakes in using this nato shield that was ok after second world war as a blunt instrument everywhere. so what he is saying when he is saying it is brain—dead is that it is not capable of thinking.

what he is asking is, ok, the world is changing, donald trump wants to separate from the role of policeman of the world but we europeans way, so thinking. yet it is not just about security. thomas, coming to something else, we have spoken about what emmanuel macron said but that is because he made an interesting speech. he also said we should not think about this as just a market. annalisa, coming back to a community of values, data, technology, saying we need a coherent apology? i want to come to the point that annalisa made before. that europe initially had a hope of becoming a more united, value—oriented community. look where we are now. i am saying something controversial when i blame brussels on the eu partly for having got the wrong end of the stick after ‘89 and forcing at a greater pace the ever—closer union. and the ever—closer union is not the new emerging national spirit

that individual countries want. great britain is a leading example. great britain was always set against ever closer union, she has a national identity. i think not everything is wrong with the renaissance of national identities in europe. in fact, the ever—closer union had something of a misconception in it because there is only a limit to how you can integrate so many different nations under one umbrella. you have to be very careful not to overdo it. you have to recognise the individual persona of nations. so is that, are you referring there, for example, to the euro crisis, spaniards and greek? yes. europe is the only area where i accept greater integration might be necessary.

you cannot operate an economic regime in europe with a common currency and having different budgets and so forth. in that area, i agree closer integration may be necessary or unavoidable, but other than that, we have to be careful not to denigrate the re—emergence of national identities. it is a natural development of the post—cold war world, that those nations who were surprised under soviet power are coming free and want to re—establish their national identity. there is nothing wrong with it. alexander, is that how you see it? and other analysis is that there is too much inequality, that some people are crushed at the bottom whereas kleptocratic saudi regulation or whatever one wants to call it, different administrations at the top and that pure people in marginalised places get angry and resentful and that has driven nationalisation? i would like to say that nato is obsolete because there is no external threat to europe. russia is not a threat to europe. the external threat has gone, the internal threats are massive.

look at the tensions, racial, national, religious, inside. look at the economy — the economy in europe is a virtual economy. it is not a proper free— market economy. it exists for the markets and the sake of the middleman. the producer is no longer king. read adam smith, the producer must be king, not the banker or the lender or the middleman. and that's the problem. europe is looking for external enemies, when the enemies are within. what about alleged russian interference in british politics? alleged russian interference. you should know something about this dossier that nobody wants us to know about. what is in their? i suspect it is not released because there is nothing in it, that is the reason it has not been released. if there is nothing in it...

if they release it and they cannot prove that for 3.5 years they were banging on about russian meddling, they would look stupid, won't they? that is what i suspect is the reason. the external enemy thing is overplayed. exaggerated. because how can russia with a budget which is ten times smaller of nato be a threat, it is impossible? but that's is the reason why, the threat has changed and for very little money, for very little effort, russia has been able to sow divisions on europe and the us. but what about internal threats that come from internal enemies? crosstalk we do not have time, we have a division. alexander thinks we are exaggerating or others are exaggerating the russian threat. you two to think there is a russian threat. we believe that they are. internal threat, one sentence on the internal threats alexander identifies? a return to nationalism and toxic tribalism, that is the internal threat.

and stephanie? the whole issue of immigration is something of immigration is something every european country is grappling with. that is, how do european leaders manage immigration in a way that perhaps respects the spirit of 1989, yet does not sow greater divisions like the we've seen following the 2015 refugee crisis in europe? we will have to leave this issue because i promised we would distil the british election. butjust one question to all of you and i will take an answer from anyone who's got one, does anyone feel any nostalgia for the simpler world pre—1989, of two huge blocs who moved slowly and had particular hatreds? how can i? i have brought with me a piece of the iron curtain. we are notjust remembering the fall of the berlin wall today. it is the fall of the iron curtain. i can't feel nostalgic about returning to the time before

the iron curtain and the wall. i am happier as we are in the liberated world. i would advise greater patience, that we accepted takes longer longer to bring divided countries together, starting with germany and europe. we have economic inequality in europe, and the immigration crisis, but other than that, i think we have the freedom to determine our own fate and what is there more to celebrate than this freedom ? on that note we believe this discussion, celebrating the freedom to determine our own fate. talking about that, britain faces an election. week one of a british election campaign and "oven ready brexit deal" is a favourite slogan for the conservative party. but is this election so far all about brexit? stephanie, i'll let you start. the tories would like to make it about brexit and labour would not. for me, i think the real dividing line that needs to be made sharper and i think will be made sharper over the coming weeks

are the battle over the tory and labour spending plans. the tories have finally abandoned their fiscal rules and have opened the spending gaps, tabs, and are willing to start spending. labour wants to spend double what the tories have outlined. that needs to come into sharper focus. for voters, it looks like one is spending so much, the other will spend that much more, can the tories show themselves as the competent ones who can carry out a loosening of this austerity in a way that benefits voters? what stands out for you, annalisa? what i think is extraordinary is the end of the 2—party political system. for the first time in 100 years, we have a coalition of parties.

it was 1988 last time we had one. we had the liberals, the greens and the welsh parties, they have formed an electoral collection. they have a clear message, we are the remain party. in the last poll, the lib dems have doubled their consensus in many, many areas, because they have a very clear message. i think the 2—party system is broken and that will be the most interesting thing to watch. alexander, what strikes you? it is a very boring election. a very boring campaign. a lot of people will turn off politics for a long time and i think the main problem is that none of the ruling elites as they are called understood what brexit is. brexit is not about immigration, it is not about the eu, brexit is a protest against the liberal values that do not work. we have to leave it there. thomas, one sentence only? what a waste to be talking about brexit still.

for 3.5 years, this country has lost its plot. what about the election? it is a tragedy to still be talking about brexit. we need to talk more about what needs to be done to change this country, its inward problems its unsolved problems. we are not talking about that enough. and there, we have to end it. that's it for dateline london for this week. back next week, same place, same time. goodbye. sunday gets off to a cold and frosty start for northern england, scotland and northern ireland where there is the risk of ice on untreated surfaces after such a wet saturday.

still some early wet weather, parts of southern england and south wales to clear away southwards but after that, there is a lot of dry weather on the way during sunday, maybe just the odd lie charitable easternmost parts of england and scotland. a chilly david feeling better than saturday with more sunshine around though clouding over in northern ireland, into the evening here comes more wet weather pushing across scott and with some snow but a higher ground, pennines, southern upland is, the highlands north of the central belt in scotland weather could be some significant snow the higher you are, getting some of the higher you are, getting some of the higher routes going into monday morning. all that wet weather does push on eastwards clearing the southeast on monday morning. behind that it sunshine and showers, the sale was most frequent and heaviest towards the north—west of the uk and 00:28:47,287 --> 4294966103:13:29,430 chilly wind.