tv HAR Dtalk BBC News December 12, 2019 4:30am-5:00am GMT
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the debate begins on capitol hill over the articles of impeachment against president trump. thejudiciary committee of the us house of representatives will vote later, ahead of a vote in the full house next week. if the president is impeached, there will be a trial in the senate in the new year. reports suggest harvey weinstein has reached a $25 million settlement with dozens of his alleged victims. but he also faces criminal trial on charges of sexual assault, and a judge has increased his bail from $1 million dollars to $5 million for violating his release conditions. the woman who effectively leads myanmar has been defending her country against accusations of genocide at the international court ofjustice in the netherlands. aung san suu kyi said military action against rohingya muslims in 2017 which killed thousands was the result of necessary operations against militants.
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now on bbc news stephen sackur speaks to afghan singer aryanna sayeed. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. the fight for afg hanistan‘s future has beenjoined far beyond the frontlines between government forces and the taliban. my guest today is engaged in the struggle using her own potent weapons — that is her voice, her songs, and a spirit of defiance. aryana sayeed is afghanistan's biggest pop star. she has braved death threats to campaign for women's rights and artistic freedom. so is this a fight she can win?
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aryana sayeed, welcome to hardtalk. thank you so much. thanks for having me. it's nerve wracking to be on your show. well, it's a pleasure to have you in our london studio. i just wonder, how intimately connect do you feel to your homeland, afghanistan today? i know you go there a great deal, to work, to perform. but is that connection looser today? i still feel very connected to my country, and to my roots, of course, and ifeel for my people in afghanistan, back home. and that connection started... well, i left afg ha nista n and that connection started... well, i left afghanistan when i was eight yea rs i left afghanistan when i was eight years old. yes, you were a child. i
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was a child, and i was away for many, was a child, and i was away for any was a child, and i was away for many, many years. but then i went back to afghanistan in 2010, and that's when i really made that connection with afghanistan and the people, and what i felt and what i saw that really touched my heart, and it made me feel like i should give something back to that country, especially those innocent people. give something back to that country, especially those innocent peoplelj wa nt to especially those innocent peoplelj want to explore all the feelings involved in that. yes. and i want to start, actually, with fear. because it's very striking to me, when you have talked about your limited memories of being a little girl in carpal and afghanistan, you talk quite a lot about fear. —— kabul. i think there's one particular incident when a rocket shell landed very close to your family home, and you remember that very well. so wonder when you went back as a performer, as an artist, years later, whether fear was a performer, as an artist, years later, whetherfear was a big factor? it was. iwas later, whetherfear was a big factor? it was. i was so nervous, so scared, to be honest. because obviously i had seen even the bad
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afghanistan, even when we left during the... we left afghanistan i think towards the end of the regime of the mujahideen, just before the taliban took over, and even then afghanistan was at war, and we were born and kind of raised at war, and i've never seen a peaceful afghanistan. but to go back, it was even more scary, because obviously i spent so much of my time here in europe, where everything was, like, different. it was like a different planet, and to go back to afghanistan was very scary. but then i went there and, you know, took a chance, and when i first went, obviously, i was really sad, really shaken and really heartbroken by the poverty and the misery and everything around me. poverty and the misery and everything around melj poverty and the misery and everything around me. i am going to stop you there, because i want to go through this bit by bit, and i also wa nt to through this bit by bit, and i also want to get to the way in which you
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found your voice as a performer. because interestingly, for me, you develop your career and had your first thought of hit single and all of that while you weren't visiting afghanistan. no. because your pa rents afghanistan. no. because your parents took you first to pakistan and then as a family went to europe, switzerland and then the united kingdom. yes. and ijust wonder if you, reflecting on it now, whether you, reflecting on it now, whether you feel you wouldn't have developed your voice, your style, your performing talent, if you had stayed in afghanistan. absolutely not. you are right. if i was in afghanistan, i would have never been able to become a singer. 0r i would have never been able to become a singer. or to pursue a career in singing at all. because to most afg ha ns, career in singing at all. because to most afghans, singing is completely not good for a culture, according to them, orfor our religion. which not really, our culture and religion doesn't say that is either, but they
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just say that. it was banned. it was com pletely just say that. it was banned. it was completely banned, forget singing, women were banned from walking on the road, even. they were banned from working, singing, women had to com pletely from working, singing, women had to completely stay at home and just be the baby machines, and that's all. and cook and raise kids. and it would have been out of the question for me to become a singer. so i think i was quite lucky. 0ne for me to become a singer. so i think i was quite lucky. one of the luckiest in the millions, of course, millions of people had to stay in afghanistan and suffer, and we were the lucky ones who had the opportunity to get out of the country and make a life for ourselves. and yet, when you did start to sing and to write as well, it's striking that you chose to write in pashto and in farsi, afghan languages, even though you are now well ensconced in europe and the united kingdom, the pop scene here. you could have chosen to try to make it as you could have chosen to try to make itasa you could have chosen to try to make it as a popstar in england, singing in english. but you didn't. it as a popstar in england, singing in english. but you didn'tlj it as a popstar in england, singing in english. but you didn't. i could have, you are right. what happened
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was i actually wanted to become a thing earlier on, when i was a teenager. but even then, my family we re teenager. but even then, my family were still quite affected by the culture back home. and they were like, no, you are not allowed to become a singer. your own father was saying that. my father, yes. one show he had a problem with your singing. he did, to begin with. he didn't want me to become a singer. asi didn't want me to become a singer. as i said, you know, women singing in afghanistan, they are looked down upon stop you know, people think that if you become a female singer you must have a bad character or a bad background, which is not true. so obviously we were affected by that culture, which obviously later unchanged. so if i started as a teenager, i would unchanged. so if i started as a teenager, iwould have unchanged. so if i started as a teenager, i would have probably started writing english lyrics, but then when i was an adult and then i was affected by the persian afghanistan music, so i started writing in farsi. and at what point did you realise your songs were taking off inside afghanistan, that you are finding an audience in your
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own land ? you are finding an audience in your own land? it was crazy. i had no idea that my songs would explode like a idea that my songs would explode likea bomb idea that my songs would explode like a bomb inside afghanistan. i had no idea. ijust thought, like, i just thought i am going to record a song and just release a video. but it did amazingly well in afghanistan, to my surprise. like, people started loving it, and i started getting invitations from tv stations to go back home and perform there, and that's how i went for the first time. so let's get back to that first visit in 2010. yes. you have talked about the sadness, you have talked about the sadness, you have talked about driving into kabul and on the street seeing the suffering and the real poverty, and particularly noticing children and women who clearly were looking like their situation was very difficult. yes. were you a little naive? did you not realise that that was the way in which so many afghans were having to live their lives? you know what? when you are away from something for such a long time, you tend to forget. 0bviously something for such a long time, you tend to forget. obviously i was
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eight years old, and all i could remember was my school and my home, and nothing else. and that rocket that landed in our house. most of my memories have gone, but when i went back there, i was hit by reality. and, you know, isaw back there, i was hit by reality. and, you know, i saw everything in real life, and the reality, what it is in afghanistan. but obviously, you know, we knew that afghanistan is still under the war and poor, and there is misery, and property... and of course, you went back after the taliban, so it was no longer actually illegal to sing and to perform music. yes. but it remains, for women in particular, what was deemed by international agencies to be, quote, the most dangerous country in the world to be a woman. yes, yes. one looks at the levels of domestic violence, sexual violence against women, one looks at the fate of girls in education, long after
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the taliban left, it was still extremely discriminatory. yes, yes. won't make you look at all of this, and did this begin to affect your music, once you had come back? absolutely. as i said, once i started my career, i was just doing, like, pop songs. i was a pop singer. i still like, pop songs. i was a pop singer. istillam. like, pop songs. i was a pop singer. i still am. you were a poppy star. it made me realise i can use my music as a platform to change, you know, the society, and to make a difference in afghanistan, especially when it comes to women's rights. so i started writing for women. i have dedicated at least seven, eight, nine songs to — specifically for women's rights. and these lyrics that i sing, they are quite strong, and they are to leave an impact there on the society, and they have, actually. they have given energy to millions of women there, and asi energy to millions of women there, and as i hear the stories from them, it is really affecting. that is actually a great queue to bring in one of your most famous songs, it is
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when we shot this video and we gave it to tv stations, it almost didn't get broadcast, because of these lyrics. really? yes, we had trouble. we were like, why not? they were like, the symbols you are using, you say mohammed. you shouldn't. and i was like, there is nothing wrong with saying mohammed, mohammed was born from a woman. and that is a reality, that is a fact, there is nothing wrong to it. you must have known. you know, you knew enough of the... of course. of the cultural atmosphere in afghanistan to know that this sort of message, and that frankly the defiant way in which you presented, with the wagging of the finger, at afg hanistan‘s presented, with the wagging of the finger, at afghanistan's men. you must have known that, in particular for the molars, the religious authorities in afghanistan, this is going to be dynamite. this was going to infuriate them —— agro two. going to be dynamite. this was going to infuriate them -- agro two. and this one is not the only one, i have
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a few more like this, which are really strong, with strong messages. i know you do, because i am looking at the lyrics of another one. champion, i think you call it, in the translation from the pharmacy, i won't bow to you, no matter what your plan, because i know a day will finally come when my skyhigh thoughts, you will finally become. exactly. this is afghan feminism. this is... i don't know if i would call it feminism. you know what? i believe more in humanity, to be honest, and the thing is, afghanistan is a country that i think women have pleaded and then nice for so many years, for such a long time, and nobody is listening. i think it's time for me to, like, shout and say really who i am. you have to listen to me. i am a human. clearly it is important for you that you have a platform and you want to use it to get across a message. yes. but then there's the issue of what is the most effective way to get
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that message across. do you think your way, which is in yourface, it is defiant, and the way you present yourself, the way you dress, is clearly, again, going to upset the state —— to say the very least the conservative religious authorities in afghanistan. yes. is that the most effective way of getting a message across? i think it is, especially because, the person that iam in especially because, the person that i am in the singer that i am, people have accepted the way i am in afghanistan, the majority, i have to say, and they love my music and they listen to what i say. and it's effective because people in reality love music. they listen to music and they love songs. and i think more than politics, more than anything else, it's the best way to sing your message across through music. and people have started, like, hating politics and all these games that are going on in afghanistan, and is most powerful thing you can use. but
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ifi most powerful thing you can use. but if i may say so, you don't steer clear of politics. just a couple of days ago here in london, the nato leaders gathered for a nato summit. yes. who should turn up and be there to represent afghanistan but you. that is deeply political. i know, but i'm not there as a politician but a representative of women, to be honest, and representative of the normal population, people. iwent representative of the normal population, people. i went there to speak my mind and my concerns about theissues speak my mind and my concerns about the issues in afghanistan about the women and the situation about peace talks, the future of afghanistan and so on. i'll get to the peace talks in a minute because obviously like any afg ha n minute because obviously like any afghan you take an interest in the political context, but let's take with culture and religion for a moment longer. do you describe yourself as an observant muslim? i'm
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very close to god. i'm very... what do you call it, spiritual, and i'm a muslim, but it's something very personal to me. ijust wonder how, for example, you felt in 2017 when i think you were supposed to stage a concert in a stadium in kabul, which is of course infamous in kabul as the national stadium where so many awful things happened during the taliban regime and you were there to play music and to sing and you ran into big problems with religious authorities andi problems with religious authorities and i am going to quote to you a mueller, "we will never allow a non— muslim..." mueller, "we will never allow a non— muslim. that's mueller, "we will never allow a non— muslim..." that's what he called you, "a non— muslim to hold a concert in ghazi stadium. " these people, he meant you, they want to stand against our religion. how did
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that make you feel? it made me feel awful. there accusing me of things that i'm not. of course i'm a muslim, mum and dad were muslim, i ama muslim, mum and dad were muslim, i am a muslim, i pray, i have my own beliefs but i'm not an extremist. they are the ones who are extremists in this particular situation. the minute i talk about freedom... if i say freedom they suddenly think i'm talking about freedom as if wearing short dresses or appear with no clothes and things like that. they co nsta ntly clothes and things like that. they constantly attack me with that, and that's not true, that's not my personality and myself freedom. freedom of choosing, freedom of mind, freedom of being able to work and study and this and that and they've got me wrong. it's this co nsta nt they've got me wrong. it's this constant battle i have to fight in afghanistan, particularly with the muellers and obviously they hate me and everything i do, it's a problem
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for them. they appear to hate you and regard you as a threat, and they do try to intimidate you, there's no doubt about that. you have faced many threats. many, many. you've had people talk about cutting your head off. yes. you've had people talk about suicide operations to be launched against you in particular. ijust wonder, as launched against you in particular. i just wonder, as you launched against you in particular. ijust wonder, as you made the decision to start going back to afghanistan and engage in the music business but also then become involved in tv shows and whatever and build a big career in afghanistan, weather you ever thought to yourself, this isn't worth it. obviously we are all human beings and sometimes. i feel really down, sad and disappointed when i think, 0k, look at what my intentions are and what i'm trying to do for this country and how they treat me but then when i look at all those millions of innocent people there that absolutely have no fault in all this, that they are striving,
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they are urging for a normal life to happen but they cannot, because of this minor people that are out there that they try to enforce their own way of thinking on these innocent people, and that makes me realise, you know what, it's worth it, i have to do this for them. i'm notjust mindful of the stress that this must put on you, i'm mindful of the burden of responsibility that comes with attracting big audiences and women come to your shows with attracting big audiences and women come to your shows even with attracting big audiences and women come to your shows even though many religious authorities would not like them to be there, women do come to your performances. yes. but are you not in some ways endangering them too? because they then become targets to a certain extent for the very conservative religious authorities. yes, obviously at the end of the day they have their own choice not to. you pointed out
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something really interesting. when i did that concert on the independence day, which they wanted to stop from happening, i was quite shocked to see that there were more women than men at that conference that night, and it was quite crazy. 0bviously they had accepted death before even coming there. when they did the interviews, they said tonight we came to support her. even if we die, it's ok. that was quite surprising and crazy for me. but you know what, at the end of the day, you have to do what you have to do. if you bring change to make a difference, these are the battles you have to fight and that's what i'm doing. do you see change? you've been going on for a decade now? yes. ifi give you see change? you've been going on for a decade now? yes. if i give you an example, back in 2010, you could barely see women walking on the road even. there was more men than women. 100 men, only three orforward have
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been women but today there are women working, they are on the streets, they are shopping, they are studying. there has been changed and obviously there is a lot that needs to change, i have to say this, but there's a lot of change and it makes me hopefulfor a there's a lot of change and it makes me hopeful for a better change. you see some evolution, some trains on the streets, but you also see the political situation and you see donald trump's administration in the united states is trying first of all to withdraw forces from afghanistan and trying to draw the taliban into and trying to draw the taliban into a political process, to persuade them to integrate into the political system and give up their arms. yes. do you want to see that our band backin do you want to see that our band back in the system inside rather than outside the political system in afghanistan? not at all, i have to be honest. from what we experienced with caliban, it was totally, like,
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a nightmare. it was a nightmare and a nightmare. it was a nightmare and a bad experience and nobody is happy for taliban to come back and be part of the government. that's quite scary. but back to your own conversation we were having about your personal stance in afghanistan and the most effective way to stabilise and give peace and give afghanistan a future. isn't actually the most effective ways to do that to build bridges to those who might be your enemies, but build bridges to them rather than ostracise them, call them extremists and say you can never, ever deal with them? well, the thing is, even the peace talks they are doing with caliban right now, things are so not very obvious. for example, when it comes to women's rights, they've been asked, "0k, women's rights, they've been asked, "ok, if you become part of the government, how will you treat women, for example?" they aren't saying things, they are keeping things, which concerns me. saying things, they are keeping things, which concerns melj saying things, they are keeping things, which concerns me. i did look carefully at what they have been saying and they say two things,
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number one, we won't go back to the ways of the 1990s when we were in power. the message is they won't be as strict, they won't ban girls from going to school, they won't necessarily ban you from singing in public but they say," we consider women as builders of a muslim society. we are committed to all the rights that women have and that are given to them by the sacred religion of islam. how does that sound to you? that doesn't sound so promising to me. there's no guarantee that they will actually act upon the words they are saying right now. there's no trust. we don't think that they will actually act upon this. because, as i said, even then when they were in power in afghanistan, they still were trying to, according to them, they were
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using islam, but they were not, actually, they were making things up from their own cells. given the uncertainty about the future and given the threats you've been very frank about, will you continue to go back? ion oversleep well, 100%. u nless back? ion oversleep well, 100%. unless they banned me from afghanistan! until then unless they banned me from afghanistan! untilthen i'm going unless they banned me from afghanistan! until then i'm going to go back and make a difference and give hope to that nation. and you we re give hope to that nation. and you were thought to leave with your family when you were eight years old. yes. can you ever imagine making afghanistan your permanent home again? if there's peace and prosperity, of course, why not, i will be there and i will serve the people as much as i can. but if the situation's like that, then obviously it's very hard but i'm spending most of my time in afghanistan even now, when the
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situation is really bad, i spend at least eight months of the year in afghanistan and i serve as one of thejudges on the afghanistan and i serve as one of the judges on the talent shows. i'm still there but you don't know about the future, i don't know. i can't say anything. aryana sayeed, we have to end there but i thank you very much indeed. thanks for having me. my much indeed. thanks for having me. my pleasure, thank you. it's been a pleasure. hello there. we've already had two deep areas of low pressure affecting the weather here in the uk so far this week with another on the way. this was tuesday's rain. the day on wednesday brought lots of showers and this massive cloud is coming in for the day ahead, and we've got further lumps with those weather fronts lying across the atlantic to bring us some further spells of rain. it's notjust rain for the concern for the day ahead. as it comes into the cold air,
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we could see some hill snow as well. we've seen snow, showers and thunderstorms have continued in the north through the night, and with those heavy showers, the potential‘s there to continue to wash the grit off the surfaces, the roads and the pavements, so quite slick conditions through the small hours and into the morning rush. it could be quite icy, notjust in the north of course. further south we've had a lot of damp weather and temperatures are forecast even in the towns and cities to get to around freezing. so, it could be icy and frosty certainly through this morning, but already in the west, we're seeing that change. now, as this comes in across the moors and the welsh mountains, there could be a smattering of snow, more likely a few centimetres across northern ireland, perhaps in the hills of northern england into southern scotland. we could stay in the showery cold regime all day in northern scotland, but it's going to feel quite raw as the clouds increasing all the time, bringing this rain eastwards into that cold air and giving us snow over the hills in the north. it does eventually get a bit milder in the south and west and more showery as you can see through the afternoon, so the sunshine returns,
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but with it, also some stronger winds. so those strong north—westerly winds will blow the rain away from southern areas, but it kind of hangs around in the north through the night and into friday, with showers rushing in on that north—westerly. so another cold feeling day, but we're back to sunshine and showers for most on friday except, as you can see, northern and north—eastern parts of scotland with their persistent rain here, hill snow too, and heavy showers elsewhere, some hail, some thunder in there as well, temperatures perhaps doing a little better than the day ahead but feeling cold with that wind. that wind which will continue to blow through friday night into saturday, blowing our weather front further southward. look at this — significant snow is expected again across the alpine regions, some really strong winds as well battering central parts of europe, another very deep area of low pressure heading towards the balkans. so, there are warnings out quite widely across parts of central and southern europe as well. look at this for turin — expecting some snow on friday and we wouldn't like to rule out some wintriness across many alpine regions over the coming few days. here in the uk this weekend, it's going to stay chilly, we'll see further sunny spells and showers, but it'll often be quite windy, especially
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this is the briefing — i'm sally bundock. our top story: in precisely two hours, polls open here in the uk as voters decide who will form their next government. the debate begins on capitol hill over the articles of impeachment against president trump. the international court ofjustice is set to hear from gambia's lawyers, that rohingya muslims still face an ongoing risk of genocide. and coming up in the business briefing: breaking the glass ceiling. european central bank boss christine lagarde heads a growing list of women in top business jobs. but men still dominate global boardrooms.
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