welcome to hardtalk. thank you. i wa nt to welcome to hardtalk. thank you. i want to begin with that election boeing is temporarily suspending production of its 737 max airliner from january. result is itself. when you saw it, it was grounded in march after two fatal crashes in indonesia isa result is itself. when you saw it, is a tribally labour man, labour all and ethiopia that killed 346 people. your life but who has run into a the company says it won't lay off workers but the stoppage is likely series of robbins withjeremy corbyn to affect suppliers and his leadership, how did you respond to that result?” and his leadership, how did you respond to that result? i wasn't wholly surprised. i had privately and the wider us economy. predicted about 50, 60. majority for the tories. yes, and the reason for opposition parties in india have condemned the police‘s violent that as i think the country decided suppression of student protests over a new citizenship law. some time ago that it's not electing the congress party, responding to video footage of police beating protesters at a university in delhi, jeremy corbyn as prime minister. you accuses the government of declaring war on its own people. can argue if that's fair or unfair but i think that was something i sensed just going around the country. i felt really sad, to sensed just going around the country. ifelt really sad, to be honest. i felt sad for lots of reasons. i felt very sad that boris britain's prime minister is planning a new law to prevent johnson who i've known for a very any extension of the brexit transition process beyond long time and who i really don't the end of 2020. the withdrawal agreement will include a clause making think is a suitable guide to be further delays illegal. there's some concern this revives prime minister of one of the great the possibility of the uk leaving countries of the world, is going to

the eu without any trade deal. be in power with a lot of power and now on bbc news, it's hardtalk having seen what he done with a little bit of power, that is with stephen sackur. alarming and even though as you say i've been kicked out of the labour party for voting liberal democrat in welcome to hard tour, i'm stephen the european elections as a protest sacco. britain's collection divided vote, i feel very, very the european elections as a protest vote, ifeel very, very labour and i was really sad just to see what is binary clarity. borisjohnson has described in the introduction is potentially an existential threat to the kind of parliamentary mandate the labour party, it's very scary. the kind of parliamentary mandate the conservative party hasn't seen since the pratchett euro to take the what you didn't use and that answer was exit but the tories made this a uk out of the eu and roll out a tory brexit election, it was a decision vision for the country and the on brexit and it was a slap in the labour party, well, after one of the face for you personally. why? most crushing defeats in its history, it faces an existential crisis. my guest is alistair because you were one of the arch advocates of the labour party adopting a remain position or at campbell, close adviser to tony blair in the new labour years, least adopting a second referendum position. the british public but not passionate opponent of brexit. where does the left go now if it's ever least most importantly perhaps that win again? alistair campbell, element of the public that lives in labour heartlands, white working class voters in the north and midlands, clearly did not support your position. well, just a few

points on that. the first is that if the labour party had adopted a pure leave position, that i guarantee you that genuinely would have been existential. don't forget, far more. . . existential. don't forget, far more... and we talk about labour voters as if they are a homogenous mass and they only voted brexit. there are lots of reasons people voted in the general election and that's why i thought it was a huge mistake of falling into johnson's trap of falling into an election defined by the exit but as a matter of fa ct defined by the exit but as a matter of fact labour lost far more votes in this election to what you might call pure remain parties than they did to the tories. that may be true across the nation but in those particular seats where labour was annihilated, and i mean i could list some of them. you know them very well, in the north—east of england, seats like sedgefield and stockton—on—tees in the north—west where you spent some of your young

yea rs, where you spent some of your young years, leigh, never been tory before oi’ years, leigh, never been tory before or not the generations.” years, leigh, never been tory before or not the generations. i was in several of those seats during the campaign and while it is true, sedgefield for example and i was in bury before the election and while it's true you might meet the occasional person who was absolutely adamant that because labour was not just saying leave means leave and we are out, that they were no longer voting labour. they were dwarfed, and we have to be honest by this, they were dwarfed by people saying i'm not going to votejeremy corbyn downing street. let me quote you the words of dominic cummings, in many ways the intellectual architect boris johnson's campaign. 0n ways the intellectual architect borisjohnson‘s campaign. 0n the day after, he poured scorn direct from people like you. he said this election result is an education for the educated remain a campaign types you need to realise the conversation they've been having in london arei million miles away from the island. there are many myths that develop.

0ne there are many myths that develop. one of them is that all of these mps up one of them is that all of these mps up north who, be frank, most of them spend as much time up there as they do in london and they live inside this m25 bubble. the whole country is divided. london is divided. we talk about the north is this homogenous match all gagging to get out of the european union. some were, a lot weren't. when you boil down why those seats have got in the way they have gone on by the way, i don'tjust blame way they have gone on by the way, i don't just blame jeremy corbyn, way they have gone on by the way, i don'tjust blamejeremy corbyn, a lot of this had been bubbling up for some time, a lot of it to do with the consequence of the crash and issues of identity, a lot of it to do with issues and again this does relate to jeremy corbyn about the sense of patriotism and this feeling that maybe you are not quite patriotic in the way i would define it, they would define it and all these things build—up so what happens after any election, we were guilty of this back in the day as

well, is when you have a big win as the tories have done, you embellish the tories have done, you embellish the reasons of your success and you try and rub your opponent's noses in the diet. it's more complicated. it is more complicated and will come onto a consideration ofjeremy corbyn and his brand of left politics and we will come onto other issues which may come back into the bladder years in your culpability but let us stick for now with this question of labour's response to the referendum in 2016. the bottom line is, 52-48 referendum in 2016. the bottom line is, 52—48 and a once—in—a—lifetime referendum, that is the way it was sold, the people of the united kingdom voted to leave, the proposition from dominic cummings was that you and many people like you could never, did never come to terms with that and now that we look at what has happened in this general election, are you prepared for a little self reflection to perhaps allow that cummings may have had a point. i do. it's allow that cummings may have had a point. ido. it's very interesting to hear in the labour party that jeremiah corbin expectjeremy corbyn

has said there has to be a period of reflection on virtually everybody who's come out thus far has said we need to reflect and conclude whatever it was i thought in the first base. —— jeremy corbyn. i was a lwa ys first base. —— jeremy corbyn. i was always conscious of the fact that if you have a referendum and don't immediate implement that you will have that democratic problem. we never found a way to address that and the reason for that is, i was pa rt and the reason for that is, i was part of people's boat campaign, i was trying to get a second referendum. i think that is a perfectly legitimate thing to do. the parties, they are in a very different position and i think the labour party's different position and i think the labour pa rty‘s decision different position and i think the labour party's decision from day one, instead of being swot along with the will of the people, will of the people, will of the people, no criticism can be raised against bragg had said, ok, this is happened, we have to respect the result, the government has to go on negotiate the best terms of agreement and we are entitled to judge that on its merits when they bring it back instead of which, leg got dragged... you're wanting to say in the end whatever the government doesin

in the end whatever the government does in terms of brexit has to be thrown back to the people but there was one moment in this brexit process. . . was one moment in this brexit process... the argument, if the labour party, at that time, had set that out as a long—term strategy. let me quote you and i don't want to get too stuck on brexit but let me quote you the son of lord kenrick who led the labour party in a time of crisis, his son stephen sits in the house of commons, he said, the decision to back a second referendum rather than ultimately going with theresa may's deal, perhaps venus it a little bit to ensure the customs union was very much a part of the deal, make it as labourfriendly as possible, work with theresa may to get over the line. the decision not to go with that but go for a second referendum was the worst political decision in the history of the labour party. this is exactly what i mean. people who want in this aftermath to say that whatever it was they were advising, if only we listened to them and i don't accept that. if the labour party had been

the party viewed by the public as having delivered theresa may's deal, the idea that would have been electorally sensible politics for labour is at a fantasy so i'm afraid, stephen is a very old friend of mine, we are very old family friends but i think this is a self—serving nonsense. friends but i think this is a self-serving nonsense. well, let's talk then aboutjeremy corbyn and his style of politics. you have made no secret of your frankly contempt of much of what he has done over the last couple of years and yetjeremy corbyn, in 2017, led a labour party which is many of his left—wing friends point out, got 40% of the vote, and saw labour actually surprise you, surprise all of the pundits with its relative success. the same jeremy corbyn pundits with its relative success. the samejeremy corbyn that pundits with its relative success. the same jeremy corbyn that you pundits with its relative success. the samejeremy corbyn that you are saying, i knew he'd lost, he couldn't possibly win. i've been fairly consistent. i don't have contempt, by the way. i think that

he was elected leader, he made the decision to take the labour party in a direction that i have always felt will never win. i've never budged from that opinion. that doesn't mean that in 2017i from that opinion. that doesn't mean that in 20171 couldn't say yes, before to much campaign than i expected him to but that became one of the seeds of the disaster that we now have because 2017, no two elections are the same, 2017, he was up elections are the same, 2017, he was up against theresa may, not boris johnson, theresa may, possibly the worst campaign with ever seen in a election battlefield. borisjohnson, whatever you say, i've got a lot to say about him, he is a campaigner. the second thing is back then, for a lot of people, you and i, we live in this world and jeremy corbyn was a known quantity. for a lot of people, he wasn't and he did a lot in part because a lot of people thought there was no chance of him winning. you had labour mps going around saying vote for me but don't worry,

he can't win. this time, the conservatives successfully named this election, this is why it was such a disaster for labour to fall into the trap of having it, they made it as the brexit— corbin election. corbyn is the guy stopping brexit, we are about getting brexit done and that became a mix that labour couldn't resist. lynn mccluskey, one of the most important players in the labour movement, the unite union, says the people who have been sniping at corbin for yea rs, have been sniping at corbin for years, and he has you in his sights, they do it because they are co nsta ntly they do it because they are constantly hankering after a new labour past. they will not and have not accepted corbyn‘s leadership of the party. i spent this campaign, and i'd rather be able to be honest and i'd rather be able to be honest and look in the mirror rather than... it's time to do that because the labour party that you claim to have loved all your life is an existential crisis. exactly. so when i look existential crisis. exactly. so when ilook in existential crisis. exactly. so when i look in the mirror, i can say to

myself honestly, i've always had doubts aboutjeremy myself honestly, i've always had doubts about jeremy corbyn, myself honestly, i've always had doubts aboutjeremy corbyn, and i spent this campaign going around the country trying, we failed, trying to persuade people to vote tactically because i felt it reached a point where labour couldn't get a majority but the only possibility now of any hope of a second referendum was to stopjohnson getting hope of a second referendum was to stop johnson getting a hope of a second referendum was to stopjohnson getting a big majority. did that therefore play a part in his majority? maybe it did. none of us know because elections are about millions of people but for len mccluskey millions of people but for len m cclus key to millions of people but for len mccluskey to come out as is done and said this is all about the second referendum. for stephen to say, he's a lwa ys referendum. for stephen to say, he's always backed a version of theresa may's deal, if only we'd done that, thatis may's deal, if only we'd done that, that is nonsense. the public make up their minds over lots of wings and one of them in this election without a doubt was the state of today's labour party underjeremy corbyn and the influence of momentum. what we need to return to is the massive

disconnection between the labour party and its bedrock support, these working class voters we discussed earlier. a lot of these voters would no longer classify themselves as working class. the middle classes expanded across country. let's call them the more economically disadvantaged, the socio—economic groups that belong to the torah rather than the richer. there is a statistician who works for the financial times whose run the numbers since the election. —— poorer. he says it's wrong to suggest the disconnection between that group and the labour party began with the protracted exit crisis. it says labour has been gradually losing ground with the working class for decades and actually the period that you and tony blair were in charge of the labour party was a crucial part of this gradual disconnection. 0ne one of the tragedies for labour is thatis one of the tragedies for labour is that is a neighbour that the current labour party readership has pushed

himself... with respect, it is not a narrative it is a critical analysis. no, it is in and let me explain why. take the politics, 2005 and i am not pretending this is not an issue but to put facts into a, 2005, we won more than a0 thieves in scotland. we're now to one. that was after the iraq war. the middle classes, this sort of caricature of the working class and the relationship with labour, we lost a lot of middle—class supporters because of the road. tony blair pars mac majority was over 20,000. in most of these seeds that we have now lost, it has gone like that and it may have started... it is notjust about the numbers, it is about an attitude, complacency, and taking people and places for granted. that isa people and places for granted. that is a narrative and it is a myth stop

it actually comes from a former ally of yours, guy woke closely with tony blair, peter hyman. he reflected on what happened during the latter yea rs, what happened during the latter years, actually a couple of years ago and he wrote, we failed to develop talent and cement organisational and cultural changes in the labour party and failed to secure our legacy. he's talking about the party and failures into those areas, far from about the party and failures into those areas, farfrom london about the party and failures into those areas, far from london where labour drew most of its vote. one of the brightest guys i have ever worked with and i agree with every word. we failed to secure our legacy and it is illustrating the point i am making. if you have today pars mac labour party, basically going around saying that new labour was an aberration, that tony blair is a swea rword aberration, that tony blair is a swearword within the party, that we neglected the heartland, where did we put the biggest investment in

schools and hospitals? why did we do minimal wage? why did we look after some of these are former industrial communities in the way that we did. why didn't you invest in the infrastructure of the north, the railways... infrastructure of the north, the railways. . . we infrastructure of the north, the railways... we could have done much more, much more but the idea that it was neglected compare with london and the south—east and let me say something else... you are now making a speech and this is an interview and we need to move it on. where labour is today and we both agree it is in crisis, is that labour has phenomenal support with young people, even in a disastrous defeat. it still has a major support in metropolitan areas, particularly london, the big cities seem to like labour but it does not have an ability to weave those constituencies with the small towns, the post industrial areas and as a

political strategist, how now it moves forward and begins to weave those different constituencies together. len mccluskey says we're sitting here harking to the past but there is no point we have to rediscover what we did. that never works. however, ifi rediscover what we did. that never works. however, if i say to you, if borisjohnson works. however, if i say to you, if boris johnson serves five years, which he is almost certain to do, by the end of that firstjohnson time, it would have been half a century since any labour leader, other than tony blair, one a general election in this country. all i say to people like len mccluskey, let's learn lessons but also learn lessons from defeats and victories. you have to build the coalition between, if you will, the labour part of labour and the liberal side of politics as well, the progressive values have to

be brought together in a way the majority can accept. let's talk about leadership because right now, they are gathering at the starting line. the prevailing view seems to be it has to be somebody from the north because of all the problems we have discussed and most people have said a woman because it has to look different to the past. said a woman because it has to look different to the pastlj said a woman because it has to look different to the past. i am not a member, unless i am allowed back in the party... rebuild rejoined that has become some sort of social media... are you going to try to persuade the party to let you back in? the idea that i am going to go to these people that destroyed the labour party and persuade them to let men is nonsense. does the left progressive party need, let's say, a

working—class leader because there is much discussion about how a relatively posh person in london... borisjohnson. the people we talk about have voted for borisjohnson. do you have to have a working—class leaderfor the labour do you have to have a working—class leader for the labour party? what you need is somebody the public look at and think, i can see them as prime minister. now, where they come from is less important. lisa mandy was talking yesterday. —— nandy. she was talking yesterday. —— nandy. she was talking yesterday. —— nandy. she was talking in the north, that may be in the end, what the country wa nts be in the end, what the country wants is a labour party that has leader, team, policies and we're not about people who spend the times is obsessing about politics, but people look at them and think, i can imagine you at number 10 butjeremy,

iam imagine you at number 10 butjeremy, i am sorry, but they did not. let's look at the travails of left politics. in the us, a form of nationalism and populism propels trump possibly to a second wind. borisjohnson has what trump possibly to a second wind. boris johnson has what floor. trump possibly to a second wind. borisjohnson has what floor. across europe, left of centre progressive are struggling to connect so how are the left of centre politicians and actors and campaigners such as yourself, how are you going to find what is missing? one of the problems we have had with the current labour party is there is always a danger that you address the world as you wa nt to that you address the world as you want to be rather than as it is. this analysis of defeat, it has to be honest. take back control was the 2016 message. it brexit done was the mantra this election. people could

connect. the idea that labour party can defeat that by thinking of a clever slogan, a slogan has to speak to some sort of reality that is strategic and connects with people and you can only build that over time. if you look at the issues absent in this election, there was next to know discussion about issues like artificial intelligence, the impact of globalisation, we were talking... next to nothing about the technological revolution and the changes it was bringing to people ‘s lives, you have from labour... are you saying move away from the left tradition of redistribution, possibly nationalisation... that may be part of it. focus on al, technology climate change. definitely climate change. when you looked at the plans discussed by either side on climate change, it did not have any sense of the urgency or challenge or intellectual

depth. it was a green jobs revolution, a green new deal... you cannot spring that in an election campaign. you have to build it over time otherwise you will fall victim to my view of a chancellor like johnson coming along to a smart slogan. do you see anywhere in the world this sort of politics winning elections? i remember built clinton -- bill elections? i remember built clinton —— bill clinton saying it is harder for the left because the right a lwa ys for the left because the right always had the best chance. they can do the patriotism and all that and thatis do the patriotism and all that and that is why it is so wrong for the left side to lose that. when we build new labour, it was saying yes social justice but build new labour, it was saying yes socialjustice but you have to also speak to aspiration and patriotism and that these things that the right for too long have held onto. if you

look at the elections in denmark recently, it was interesting that there was a fear of the right getting away with it. in france, emmanuel macron is centre—right but actually i think you spoke to he spoke to a lot of people on the ce ntre—left spoke to a lot of people on the centre—left and build the coalition ina centre—left and build the coalition in a slightly different place you have to reach beyond your base and your tribe. is the labour party going to be the vehicle for that or are you thinking of a political movement in the next five years?” hope the labour party is the vehicle for that but i do not think you can ta ke for that but i do not think you can take anything for granted. a party has a next 0racle right to exist just because it has been around for a long time. labour has to move beyond its base and what i have seen in the debate since that defeat has not filled me with much hope. alastair campbell we have to and there. thank you for being on

hardtalk. it has been pretty cold across northern scotland in the past few hours, temperatures have been down to —6, there has been some snow around too, but the main message in the forecast is that it is going to be mild this week, some wet and windy weather on the way, gale force winds, not surprising for this time of year. but it is already starting to happen out there in the atlantic. low pressures are forming, weather fronts will be heading our way, we have a fair bit of cloud and some light rain affecting the south and south—east at the moment. we have got one weather front here keeping things a little bit milder. we have got clear skies, but also mist and fog across northern england and scotland, and that's where we've had the colder air.

temperatures have been down to —6 degrees but actually rising a little bit through the early hours of tuesday morning. tuesday starts off grey, cloudy, and drizzly in the south, mist and murk across the midlands and parts of northern england, and still a little bit of winteryness left over from the night across scotland. four degrees in aberdeen, five in newcastle, eight or nine in the south, and east anglia and london probably staying quite cloudy and damp across the course of tuesday. tuesday night into wednesday we are actually in between weather systems, one moving away towards the east and this next big low pressure is dominating a huge chunk of the atlantic, that is going to be a real dominating part of our weather as we go through the course of the second half of the week. on wednesday, it starts off really foggy across parts of the midlands and northern england but then the winds will freshen and we start to see the arrival of this weather front with very strong winds, in fact winds around coast of south—western england, wales, a little bit further north, could be approaching 70 miles an hour. that is around the coast —

inland windy enough, too. look what happens across the course of wednesday and into thursday: that weather front sweeps across the uk, strong winds as well, potential for some wintryness, across the high ground there, scotland and then that takes us into thursday, quite a blustery day with showers as well. towards the end of the week, that big low pressure with lots of weather fronts circling in. it is dominating a huge chunk of europe. we are not the only ones getting the bad weather, there will be spells of wind and rain and other parts of europe as well. unsurprising really, for the time of year. but the temperatures really will be rising in southerlies by the end of thursday. we could be approaching 13 degrees celsius in london and there will be some rain around, too. bye bye.

this is the briefing, i'm sally bundock. our top story: many fled war and disaster — now increasing numbers of children

are self—harming and attempting suicide in a greek refugee camp. we have a spoecial report. the greek government recently announced plans to move 20,000 people of this island, and neighbouring ireland by 2020. movement on that has been extremely slow. —— neighbouring island. britain's prime minister plans a new law to prevent any extension of the brexit transition process beyond the end of 2020. the floodgates that should have saved venice — are they a billion—euro lifeline? or will they sink into the adriatic?