in idlib province, and he's insisted his country couldn't cope with a new wave of refugees who might attempt to cross the border. there've been reports of civilian deaths in air strikes on towns and villages. more than 100 bushfires are still burning in new south wales in australia. as firefighters struggle to control blazes, prime minister scott morrison has acknowledged a link between global warming and extreme weather. he's apologised for being on holiday during the crisis. in india, prime minister and hindu nationalist leader narendra modi has tried to calm anger over a controversial new citizenship law, saying indian muslims have nothing to fear. at least 20 people have been killed in days of protests over the law. now on bbc news, it's dateline london.

hello, and welcome to dateline london. i'm carrie gracie. this week: it's almost christmas — a moment to examine religion and politics across the globe, starting with the citizenship bill that's triggering huge demonstrations in india. it's also the week donald trump became only the third american president in history to be impeached. does that energise or damage his campaign for re—election? my guests: catherine pepinster, commentator on religion and politics. french—algerian journalist nabila ramdani. stephanie baker of bloomberg news. and political writer

and broadcaster, jonathan sacerdoti. welcome to you all. so, on 25th december, christians celebrate a life story that began with the birth of a baby in a stable and ended with his execution as a common criminal. the point being that god is often closer to the weak than to the mighty, and christianity, like the world's other great faiths, preaches compassion and tolerance. but for 2,000 years, politicians have often preferred to politicise religious difference. and in this respect, 2019 has been true to form. so, let's begin in india. catherine, your first thoughts about the citizenship bill? do you see this as a form of religious discrimination? well, my reading but it does suggest that it is. if the indians... and we have to remember that india is supposed to have a secular state and that religion is supposed to be tolerated

and respected, but my understanding of this is that it's a way of giving an amnesty to illegal immigrants who come from particular countries and who are suffering from religious discrimination, but it leaves out the muslims. now, you might say it leaves out muslims because the countries they're talking about — afghanistan, pakistan — are places which have muslim majorities. but it's clearly causing a great deal of concern, and we've seen that on the streets. and, in fact, even if you're a christian coming into india now, it's not as if this would be a great place to be if you're fleeing persecution because many christians have suffered persecution at the hands of hindus in india. so this is a very complex web of problems between different faiths, and many individuals are suffering because of it. nabila, your thoughts on this? i suppose the three

countries mentioned are afghanistan, pakistan, as catherine said, and bangladesh and non—muslims do often suffer persecution in these societies, don't they? yes, and in the indian citizenship bill specifically, i think there are all manifestations of religious hate, but the cold bureaucratic ones are often the worst and the indian political establishment is currently pouring out antipathy towards muslims in its amendment to the citizenship bill. and it looks or sounds harmless enough but it is in fact a muslim ban aimed at preventing muslims from persecuted countries, as catherine said, from countries such as pakistan or bangladesh, from entering india. and we have seen crackdowns of protesters in the streets of india across the country, with demonstrators being killed or wounded, and now the government has banned protests altogether, and this is typical of the governance or lack

of narendra modi. he has been involved in the past in programmes against muslims and he's been involved in intense violence against regions such as kashmir, for example. jonathan, we will widen it out to other places in a moment, but any thoughts on the indian situation right now? i think it's important to look at the situation in terms of what is actually happening, not just what the law says or doesn't say. while the law says, or the amendments, don't mention muslims by name, it's clear exclusion going on there. and the action taken in relation to the protest, it is clear they are heavy—handed, raiding universities, beating people, people dying, these aren't the actions necessarily of a government that is trying to do its best to protect refugees, it's a government trying to oppress people who are trying to speak out against something they feel is totally unjust. that's really the bottom of it.

no politician, very few politicians would set out and say, here's my racist policy how do you like it? but their actions show what lies underneath what they are saying. stephanie? i think we should look at it as part of a broader set of measures that modi is pursuing. you know, we had the removal of autonomy for kashmir in august. there's also a new requirement for indians to register their citizenship and they need to prove that with documentation, that is also being seen as potentially discriminatory towards muslims. i think this is just another step in his agenda to advance his hindu majoritarian state. and i think the interesting thing, you've seen protests against it not just from muslims but from people of all faiths who are uncomfortable with this move away from india as a secular republic.

and i think that's really important to remember. i think it's time to widen that out. it's notjust india, sadly. catherine, the question of global discrimination against different religions, and indeed persecution. we seen research from pew, the research group, suggesting that over the course of the decade it has risen both at a government level and from individuals and societies. what is going on? i think one of the problems when it comes to government persecution, for many places in the world, this is a form of control that certain governments are scapegoating different faiths because... well, partly because they want to control them but also because they want to be seen to be powerful and they can blame those particular members of those faiths for particular troubles in those nations. and then when it comes to groups, it does seem that groups who terrorise others do move

into areas where there's a chasm, where there's joblessness, there's poverty, and then these places develop this ferment against people of particular fates. and, as you say, this is rising more and more this decade. so anyone who had any idea that this 21st century would be a more peaceful one where religion would decline has been proven sadly wrong. the discussion of pakistan, afghanistan and bangladesh in terms of tolerance of non—muslims communities, a report from the foreign office on christians in the middle east and north africa, saying that persecution is reaching genocide levels in places. what can be done about that? well, i think it's often easy

to forget that christmas is all about religion, you said that in your introduction very clearly, and now it's certainly a very good time to think about this horrific amount of persecution against religious minorities, and it has to be said, all great monotheistic faiths are under attack. anti—muslim hatred, anti—semitism and indeed violence against christians are in the news every day, and this year we have seen large numbers of worshippers murdered in mosques, in synagogues, in churches, and religious sites had been vandalised, and online campaigns have continually spread hatred and fear against religious communities. and i think, sadly, these campaigns do notjust involve anonymous trolls online. all kinds of public figures, including journalists, think it is perfectly acceptable to spread hate against such communities, and they say that it's all about free speech, oddly enough, but to take the example of france,

where i am from, it often uses its obsession with secularism to attack people of faith. and not only amounts to extreme cruelty, but also to institutional racism. and we see how stereotypes are also used to falselyjustify attacks on jews and christians, and, as you said, christians across the world, not least in the middle east, and one of the most sinister aspects ci’oss. . . in such developments is that religious affiliations often ci’oss. . . there's a crossover with racial and cultural backgrounds, and that means that often muslims are demonised and indeed hated because millions of them have brown skins or come from countries that have been under attack by the west in recent decades. and i think that it's about time that we took action, because discrimination willjust amplify and grow and multiply.

you mentioned that foreign office report, i mean, last christmas the then foreign secretaryjeremy hunt said that more had to be done about persecution of christians. this report came outjust before he quit that office of foreign secretary. the report recommended that there should be sanctions against countries that carry out this kind of persecution, and frankly that report hasjust disappeared into the ether, nothing has happened. and that's one of the problems, i think, with persecution of people of different faiths — there are ways and means that governments elsewhere can do something about it and they don't. i mean, we have a situation in somewhere like burkina faso where christian leaders are saying that weapons being used against their people are being sold to them by countries such as this, and yet nothing is happening. indeed, a good point. stephanie, the american

president at the un general assembly made religious freedom one of the key points he wanted to raise back in the summer, and earlier this week i notice he said that no president had done as much for religion as himself. but his travel ban affected muslims disproportionately, i mean, making, isuppose, catherine and nabila's point. yes, he, in terms of moving the us embassy to jerusalem, i think that's what he was perhaps referring to there. but he has, you know... religious freedom for him is a relative concept, indeed with his muslim travel ban, and again he is quoting evangelicals in the us, where he has been in lockstep for the most part, because, except for this recent editorial by christianity today, this evangelical magazine which came out against him, calling him immoral. so i think he's played this whole religion game very

opportunistically, trying to play it in his favour, courting the evangelical vote as much as he can, many evangelicals came out in support of him after that editorial. and it's remarkable why he has maintained the support. he's twice married, twice divorced, admitted to sleeping with porn stars and his rhetoric is devoid of any kind of christianity, christian values of charity or contrition or mercy. there's no forgiveness in his rhetoric. it's very divisive. and, jonathan, coming back to a point that nabila was making earlier about online hate, i'm interested in... why do you think that anti—semitism and islamophobia are often on the rise in europe?

nabila was talking about france, but of course we've just seen a general election campaign in which both anti—semitism and islamophobia were big talking points. why do they often seem to be on the rise together? i don't think it's necessarilyjust online in terms of anti—semitism or any other kind of religious hate, and i don't think it'sjust in europe, either. if you look at the latest fbi hate crime statistics, jews were the most persecuted religious group in hate crimes in the us in the last study. in fact, between 2011 and 2017, jews are always top of that list in the us. and similarly, when we look at the persecution ofjewish people around europe, as you say, it's not online. in france, jewish people have been killed for being jewish over the last few years routinely. just recently one of those very well— known cases within the jewish community, at least, was of a 66—year—old women thrown off her balcony by a muslim

who was apparently not in capacity to be tried, they've now announced, because he was high on cannabis. the idea that in france, the judicial system is deciding that somebody's drug use makes them inadmissible for trial when they threw a jewish grandmother of a balcony and killed her is extraordinary forjewish people to hear. it's well beyond the idea of online hate. i'm not... coming to... if i implied it was just online, i didn't mean that, but why do you think these forms of hate are on the rise together? i suppose that in terms of anti—semitism and anti—muslim hate as well, there's a problem for minority communities across the world that they're often persecuted by a majority who may be riled by other things going in society. certainly forjewish people, it's been the case throughoutjewish people's history that they have been a useful scapegoat, whether in medieval times, whether for religious reasons, whether during the early 20th century whether or nazis

concentrated on quasi—scientific ideas of purity and racial ideas, whether it's now, even, when jews and the jewish state in particular are often targeted for perceived human rights abuses to an extent that is far beyond, let's say, what might be looked at elsewhere. look, for example, in china at the idea of the uighur muslims, perhaps one million of them being held in camps, forced eat pork and eat and drink alcohol during ramadan, these people are getting very little attention on the world stage. and this is also something that needs to be acted on by world leaders, with a political or religious. let's come back to that, catherine, that point there, the pope hasjust been, pope francis hasjust been in asia, he flew over to china, sent a goodwill message to president xijinping, obviously has been in talks for several years now of trying to get official recognition for the vatican for catholic bishops in china, and yet we have not heard him defending those uighur muslims in north—west china. why not?

surely the key messages from religious leaders, whether catholic or any other form, would be to look after the vulnerability of the other, rather than just their own community. i am not sure why he didn't mention the uighur muslims, but he certainly does talk about people of other faiths. there was a time when he went to visit refugees and rather than pick a group of catholics or christians, he took back to rome on his plane muslim families to provide them a home. and to use that gesture is a sign that we all need to be concerned about the other, that we can'tjust be concerned about our own. but to push a little further, do you think there are situations

where religious leaders decide what is politically expedient and safer for them to do in terms of reaching out to the other, but this other is too dangerous to reach because it destroys my other objectives? the that may be the case with china, because as you will know, particularly how difficult it is to deal with china. and pope francis has been involved in some very delicate negotiations at the last year or so with the chinese about catholics in china. something which has caused a great deal of controversy within the catholic church, as it is. but when it comes to solidarity between religious leaders, i was gratified to see when the chief rabbi here spoke recently about his concerns about anti—semitism, it was noticeable that christian leaders did support him in what he had to say about the rise of anti—semitism. so it does happen. and i also recall in this country, after the terrorist attack, that religious leaders of the muslim faith,

of christians, rabbis, etc, have stood together, been photographed together to say that we have to work together. just before we leave this topic, we've heard from catherine, stephanie, what message, briefly, would you like religious leaders to be delivering at christmas this year? you know, part of me thinks that's not as relevant as the broader trend, which is that pew research report showing that there is increasing secularisation in the west, declining churchgoing, and i think it's interesting that at the same time you do see this rise in right—wing extremism and acts of violence based largely on religion, where these right—wing groups often act online as quasi churches, they serve a similar function, they provide a community they call some of these right—wing extremist martyrs, there is a sort of online comfort for them. and i think that's

what's really dangerous. there is a double neck trends. —— those two trends. i don't know if they are related but there an aspect of this rise in anti—semitism as well as anti—muslim violence act that is concerning. nabila and jonathan, nabila first, a quick message you would like to hear from religious leaders whatever their persuasion? i think we live in a highly materialistic age where we see all kinds of new orthodoxies replacing the more traditional organised form of belief that, you know, used to be such a focal point for a national life and these range from environmentalism to football. in the end, they all are forms of belief, but i think traditional forms of organised faith should be revived for the cohesion of society. and, jonathan, a quick

word from you on that? i am a huge number of people across the world are still adhering to a fate, and i think, anyway, without wanting to sound like a miss world contestant, peace and love our great message and it would be good to hear that from religious leaders. to hear that from religious leaders. but i also want to see solidarity from people of our religion. when jewish people were threatened by the most anti—semitic leader possible becoming prime minister, the general population mentioned anti—semitism as one of the things that put them off voting forjeremy corbyn. manyjewish people will be breathing a sigh of relief over something that they narrowly dodged. we don't have time to go into that, though of course your talking about jeremy corbyn, he rejects all kinds of anti—semitism, we are going to leave the discussion of religion and move onto us politics. is "victim" a winning look

for a president seeking re—election? impeached for abuse of power, president trump is telling american voters this is an attempted coup by enemies who can't beat him any other way. the stage is set for a partisan senate trial and an ugly election campaign. stephanie, do you think this impeachment process is going to work for president trump? he is the third president to be impeached in the house, but the first to fight for re—election after having experienced that. so this is unprecedented in that respect. the news cycle moves so fast that it is unclear that by november this will be the defining think that he will be running on. i think people are so set

in their opinions on this, the country is so divided, that the number of people whose votes will be altered by this will be relatively small. and i think the way the senate trial pans out could have an influence on it. there's this big battle over whether or not the senate republicans will call witnesses and get documents, the house speaker, nancy pelosi, has refused to send us articles of impeachment over to the senate until she gets some clarity over how the whole process will run. and remember, you know, the democrats and they only need four republican senators to flip and degree these new rules to call witnesses and push for documents. and the investigation is still ongoing, they could be additional information coming out. if we get from's chief of staff, mick mulvaney, or his former national security adviser, john bolton, testifying, that could be different.

there is new information that could sway voters. nabila, so the president would be wrong to be overconfident in that analysis? one of the most notable elements in this entire trump story is how pretty much every time, we have been told he is close to the end, this was said through during his campaign when all sorts of appalling scandals emerge, from his treatment of women to his business dealings. and everyone expected his campaign to explode within days or weeks. but here we are. here we are after three years and he is still going strong, and i cannot see future events going against him. 0n the contrary, i think he and his aides see the senate trial is the biggest transfer vindication. and he certainly wants it to happen quick enough in time to be re—elected. there is evidence that not only from supporters but beyond his fan base, people are not interested in the slightest about what his relationship with ukraine might have been, and i suspect many wouldn't know anything about the country at all. and most of these people would...

they are the types he would actually see trump is caught up in a massive witchhunt orchestrated by the democrats and indeed the fake news media, and if he can get rid of this quickly enough, he's got very good chances of being re—elected. i think the shame of this whole impeachment process is that while it may be focusing somewhat on the dodgy foreign policyjudgment of donald trump, the democrats have made it clear that they are not really impeaching trump because of ukraine. there are more interested in the fact that they believe he is unfit to be president altogether.

and this is one in an arsenal of measures that they have tried to take in order to undermine what they see, i suppose, is his likelihood of winning again in just 46 weeks. and i think the risk of that back firing is also great, because rather than coming up with strong policy and strong leadership that could challenge him at the next election, this is a huge distraction, as you say, donald trump is going to be able to use because he will probably be acquitted because of the way the process works and then he will be able to add that to his list of reasons why he is a winner and democrats are losers, to use his kind of language, and on top of that he's going to be focusing on notjust using those kinds of things, you don't get re—elected simply because you impeach or went removed from the presidency, you get re—elected because you have a bright optimistic message for the future. he has plenty of things he can use to get re—elected but he is going to have to try harder, as well, to find things that will give people hope, not just concentrate on this partisan squabbling. and we have just got time, catherine, once round the table on this issue, your turn! i'm interested in the way

nancy pelosi is playing this because they have gone trying to get impeachment when, but now she is stalling somewhat and trying to get the witnesses to be able to give their evidence. but while she stalling, it means he's got impeachment hanging over him rather than the words acquittal. and that's why he wants it to happen fast. sorry we didn't have much time at the end. that's it for dateline london for this week — we're back next week at the same time. goodbye. hello.

sunday saw the winter solstice, that means that at least from an astronomer‘s point of view, we are officially into winter. some we are officially into winter. very sunny, pleasant v the some very sunny, pleasant weather on the way. in the short term we have a few shelves across the country through the early hours of monday. for most of us it is largely clear. not singularly cold early on monday, around six or seven in the south. a touch of frost across northern and eastern scotland. monday will bring sunshine and showers. most of the showers will be across northern parts of the country. in the south you are likely to have sunny skies. mild, around 11 in cardiff and london, around about nine degrees in the lowlands of scotland. monday evening, the possibility of rain in the south—west.

and also this is bbc news. welcome if you're watching here in the uk or around the globe. i'm aaron safir. our top stories: syria's refugee crisis worsens. turkey's president warns 80,000 people have fled fighting in idlib province. the battle to control australia's bushfires. more than 100 are still raging in new south wales. the country's prime minister defends the coal industry and defies calls for new carbon targets. india's prime minister defends his new citizenship law after days of protests left at least 20 people dead. it's a beautiful day in this neighbourhood... a beautiful day. and fresh from playing an american tv icon, candid confessions from tom hanks. iam kind of loud, iam needy in some ways, i probably