hello it's thursday, it's ten o'clock, i'm victoria derbyshire, and we're live from new broadcasting house. harry and meghan are to step back from royal life, and they didn't tell the queen. it comes after meghan spoke out last year about the toll public life was having on the couple. not many people have asked if i'm ok but it's... ..it‘s a very real thing to be going through behind the scenes. and the answer is, would it be fair to say, not really, 0k, as in it's really been a struggle? yes. so, what next? is it even possible for them to exist half in, and half out of the monarchy, or will they be pressurised to step down from royal life altogether? and do you think they've made a brave choice, or an outrageous one? let me know.

also, in our exlcusive story today, "a sham" — that's how a rape victim describes a government inquiry into what alun cairns, the former welsh secretary, knew about his former aide's role in the collapse of a rape trial. the whole thing feels like a sham. what kind of investigation doesn't contact the person who is most affected? it makes me question how seriously it was actually carried out. the victim, we're calling her lucy, says that as soon as she reported the rape to police, she was subjected to a hate campaign by some members of the welsh conservatives. it felt like a complete smear campaign. like what, what kind of things were people saying? basically, trying to spread it about that i'd slept with certain people and therefore i must have deserved what had happened, i must have asked for it. they were trying to say i'd lied about other things. we'll bring you the full storyjust after 10.30. # yeah, you got that yummy—yum # that yummy—yum, that yummy—yummy (you stay flexin‘ on me)...#

justin bieber reveals he has been diagnosed with lyme disease. we diagnosed with lyme disease. will talk about that l and we'll talk to live to the shadow internation trade secretary, barry gardiner, in his first interview since it emerged he's considering standing to be leader. will he make up his mind air? hi, welcome to the programme. we're live until 11 this morning. so many comments from you already about harry and meghan. we will devote a proportion of our programme to their decision and the reasons for it and if it will work. do you back them? let us know. first, annita has the news. thank you very much, victoria. good morning. senior members of the royal family are said to be "hurt",

after the duke and duchess of sussex announced that they're stepping back from their royal roles. harry and meghan‘s decision is believed to have "shocked" the royal family, with reports the couple didn't consult the queen or prince william. the couple say they'll now work to become financially independent and split their time between the uk and north america. the foreign secretary, dominic raab, says talks in washington with his us counterpart about how to deal with iran have been "positive and constructive". the meeting with mike pompeo came after missiles were fired at air bases housing american troops in iraq. the attack was in retaliation for the killing of the top iranian military commander, general soleimani. we covered a whole range of bilateral issues, and particularly focused on the middle east. we made clear we recognised the danger and the threat that iran poses to the region. we also recognise the us‘s right to self defence. at the same time, of course, we want to see the tensions de—escalated. we want to find a diplomatic route through. ukraine's president has declared a day of national mourning after the plane crash in iran that

killed 176 people, including three british citizens. volodymyr zelensky says he has received an initial report about the flight bound for kyiv, but so far no evidence has been made public to suggest it was anything other than a catastrophic technical failure. a team of ukrainian experts and officials have arrived in tehran to assist with the investigation. a ministerial inquiry which cleared former welsh secretary, alun cairns, of misconduct over what he knew about the role of his former aide in the collapse of a rape trial, has been dismissed as a "sham" by the victim. in an exclusive interview with this programme, the woman says she wasn't even contacted as part of the investigation, which was focused on whether mr cairns had been "truthful". it's understood the cabinet office didn't feel it was necessary or appropriate to contact the victim as part of the investigation. a&e units in england have experienced their worst month since modern targets were introduced in 200a.

the target is 95% butjust 79.8% of patients were seen in four hours. it is the third month in a row performance has sunk to a new record low. the shadow international trade secretary, barry gardiner, has said he's considering running in the labour leadership contest. he's expected to make a decision today. candidates have until monday to win enough backing from mps to get their name on the ballot paper. yesterday, the shadow brexit secretary sir keir starmer became the first nominee to pass the threshold. 2019 was the worst year on record for british retailers, according to new figures. the industry's trade body says the all important christmas period also saw a decline in sales. the british retail consortium says total sales fell by 0.1% over the year — marking the first annual decline since 1995. the recall of more than 500,000 potentially dangerous whirlpool washing machines begins today.

if you're affected, you'll be offered either a repair or a replacement. but the consumer rights group, which?, says that's not enough and is urging the manufacturer to offer refunds instead. whirlpool has apologised to customers and says its solution is the most effective. the canadian singer, justin bieber, has confirmed that he's been diagnosed with lyme disease. there had been speculation on social media that he had a drug problem, after he was photographed looking unwell with blotches on his skin. lyme disease is a bacterial infection caused by ticks. justin bieber said it had been a rough couple of years, but he hoped the right treatment would help him recover from the disease. that is a summary of violent main story is so far, back to you, victoria. thank you very much. we talk about harry and meghan and the news that they will step back as senior royals and divide their time between the uk and north america. it has shocked the

world. ina north america. it has shocked the world. in a statement from the couple last night they said... last year prince harry meghan revealed their struggles in an itv documentary. thank you for asking because not many people have asked if i'm 0k because not many people have asked if i'm ok but it's... it's a very real thing to be going through behind—the—scenes. real thing to be going through behind-the-scenes. and the answer is, would it be fair to say, not really 0k, is, would it be fair to say, not really ok, it's really been a struggle? yes. it's just really ok, it's really been a struggle? yes. it'sjust over two yea rs struggle? yes. it'sjust over two years ago prince harry and meghan got engaged. at this time they spoke to the bbc notjust about their relationship but what they wanted to do together with their royal role. relationship but what they wanted to do together with their royal rolei know that she'll be really unbelievably good at the job part of it as well and that's a huge relief

to me because she will be able to deal with everything else that comes with it. but, no, we are a fantastic team, we know we are and we hope to, over time, try and have as much impact for all the things we care about as much as possible. i'm very excited about that. in their statement also posted on instagram, the couple said they made their decision after many months of reflection is internal discussions but it has emerged they didn't warn anyone in the royal family about their announcement last night just at buckingham palace put out a brief statement: some are making comparisons with the edward and wallis simpson affair of nearly ninety years ago when — the then king edward the eighth — abdicated from the throne

because the ‘royal institution‘ wouldn't allow him to marry a divorcee. let's talk to our royal correspondent, jonny dymond, youtuber and cultural commentator zeze millz, royal commentator and biographer angela levin, as well as fashion designer and tv presenter and meghan markle supporter amal fashanu. the royal biographer, hugo vickers, is also with us and the labour mp and deputy leadership candidate dawn butler will also join us in a few mins. so, they wanted to break free from the royal family, they have done it, what do you think? they have done indeed. to be honest, i was pretty shocked about the way they have done it. idid shocked about the way they have done it. i did expect it because in a way i think meghan is a strong, independent female of today, who is keen to pave her way and you can clearly see she is going to do what she wants to do. but, you know, the way that they did it, i'm not sure i com pletely way that they did it, i'm not sure i completely agree on. i do feel that you need to consult the royal family, you need to have consent and you need to do things the proper way. but, in a way, i am

you need to do things the proper way. but, in a way, iam happy you need to do things the proper way. but, in a way, i am happy for them. i think that's absolutely right. we all have a right to choose out right. we all have a right to choose our own way right. we all have a right to choose our own way of living but actually, not to tell the queen is so disrespectful, and then to put this thing that we will actually continue to honour her and do her work, it's absolute nonsense, isn't why do you say that? they say north america, they will probably be in new york, you can't be in two places at the same time and you can't support commercial organisations at the same time as you are a royal. is that true? they will run very quickly into problems and accusations of exploiting their position. to pick up exploiting their position. to pick up on something angela just said... 0n up on something angela just said... on one hand, this is a very, very sad. those two clips you played, awful to watch. it'sjust miserable, the whole thing, but the

contradictions in what is being proposed here are evident as soon as you look at that statement. i'm not having a go at them, i'm just saying it's in black and white. 0n having a go at them, i'm just saying it's in black and white. on one hand they say continue to work for the queen and respect the queen and respect royal tradition. 0n the other, they didn't bother or want to tell anyone in the palace, anyone at all, what they were doing. and i'm not criticising them for that decision, i'm simply saying that is already a contradiction in their plans. why? can ijust asked, we have plenty of time to chat so don't worry. the big question is — why, why do think they doing this?” think pretty unfair this has all kind of been pushed on meghan. do you think it is? even now, you said meghan isa you think it is? even now, you said meghan is a strong woman, as if harry is a feeble man who has let meghan come in and for all his life and she is the one who has made this decision, he isjust kind of there.

i think it's unfair it's all being pushed upon her. it was obviously a joint decision. i think why i think harry especially, as obviously i don't know him personally... none of us don't know him personally... none of us do! well, angela does.” don't know him personally... none of us do! well, angela does. i think the first time he had seen what the press ca n the first time he had seen what the press can do and he is a very conscious of it. i think before his son gets to a certain age where he can be affected by the paparazzi and affected by the media, i think they wa nt to affected by the media, i think they want to slowly draw themselves away from it. i don't think there's anything wrong with it. maybe, 0k, they should have consulted somebody first about it, but i think it's a bit weird because the statement said they had had internal discussions, who they wed? do you know what i mean? it's a bit misleading, to me it sounded like they had internal discussions. they had very, very stage discussions. they had discussion. there were discussions about africa, about a year ago. there have been discussions since

then. but, i mean... whilst they are still going on, this declaration of independence was being drafted. again, it's not a judgment about it, it'sjust on the one hand, it is there in black and white, we continue to serve the queen etc, on the other you don't actually bother to tell anyone you are doing it. this isjust the contradiction. why have they taken this decision? you have they taken this decision? you have to go on a minute, johnny. the decision to quit the job? yes. they don't like it, harry hates it. i think... meghan clearly was having a lousy time and just look at that interview she did with itv. clearly having a lousy time and together, they've worked out, or they think they've worked out, or they think they've worked out, a way out. so, people will hear the wayjohnny has described that and think, how can you hate it? it is a life of privilege, you get to hang out with the 0bamas get to fly to elton

john's home in the south of france... you have to have the sort of mind where you take the rough things, like a lack of privacy and the fact there is a hierarchy and meghan and harry would walk behind kate and william. so what? i think you have to have this thing where you have to have this thing where you say so what? if you feel it's outrageous, i don't want to be behind them... we don't know what's going on in the background, we are trying to say things but we don't know... i have to go, sorry, lovely to see you. hugo vickers, why do think they done it? i think it's very complicated all this. their main role of members of the royal family is to support the queen. you don't get the queen complaining about all the different think she has to do, like staying in windsor for ten days waiting for a new prime minister, going to open parliament within twice in a couple of months and that sort of thing. members of the royal family can do an enormous amount of good. prince harry was absolutely admirable. he'd had this

awful childhood and then he had his tea raway years, awful childhood and then he had his tearaway years, then he had very good service in the army and then he created the invictus games and is extremely popular. i saw him in the caribbean, they loved it, he played cricket with the children and all those sorts of things. wherever they went, for example royal visits in africa, apart from the interview and suing the newspaper, they were spreading joy and happiness in great measure and they were doing a really good job. i see them now, measure and they were doing a really good job. isee them now, to measure and they were doing a really good job. i see them now, to some extent, as setting up a kind of rival royal court or institution, away from things, which frankly never really works. as i say, their mainjob at the never really works. as i say, their main job at the royal family is to support the monarch, whoever that happens to be. prince philip, princess anne, brilliant, they were a lwa ys princess anne, brilliant, they were always there when they were needed. when they were not needed, they would quietly pursue their own endeavours. i don't see why you can't work within the system.” endeavours. i don't see why you can't work within the system. i want to bring in this picture, this photograph, of the queen, charles, william and george. it was released

over the new year and angela, there are some reports that it was this photo that apparently was the straw that broke the camel's back, in terms of harry and meghan‘s decision, can that be true? this is a very interesting picture because one of meghan's friends told a reporter that they felt they had been sidelined. the reason, the example that they gave was this picture. they said, you know, you saw all these four royals and we weren't in it. but that is absolute nonsense. anyone who knows anything about the royal family knows that every now and then they do the next heirs to the throne. that is all this is. it isn't about sidelining or snubbing anybody. do you think there is any truth in that report, this is the photo that... no, i think there are many reasons. i don't think this would be the reason. harry would say immediately to meghan, don't worry about that, this is what happens, it's only the

heirs to the throne. luckily, i'm not going to be king. i want to play this clip from the itv documentary, meghan talking about the fact it is effectively not enough just to exist. let's have a look. thank you for asking, because not many people have asked if i'm 0k thank you for asking, because not many people have asked if i'm ok but it's... many people have asked if i'm ok but it's. .. it's a many people have asked if i'm ok but it's... it's a very real thing to be going through behind—the—scenes. it's... it's a very real thing to be going through behind-the-scenes. and the answer is, would it be fair to say, not really 0k, as in it's really been a struggle? yes. that is not quite the right clip, we will play the right one in a moment. what you want to say? if you have to say what she's achieved, she's been to two continents, din two incredibly successful royal tours, she has the hell she wanted, she spent {2.4 million at that without having to pay for it, the taxman has. she can dress in extraordinary clothes...” guess... hang on. then nothing seems

to be enough. i guess that's the reason why they have decided to step back because then she won't have to use tax money and she won't have to give account... first—time mother, she's just got married recently, she's just got married recently, she's trying her best, she is in front of the whole of britain. it's a very, very difficult situation. she really trying her best are the kind of personality always looking for the next step? always looking for... ambitious? she is very ambitious but i think there is a difference between being ambitious, clever and articulate and being very dissatisfied. which might come back from her own childhood.” dissatisfied. which might come back from her own childhood. i don't think she is dissatisfied at all. i think she is dissatisfied at all. i think it's hard, especially we mentioned princess anne and all these other people. in the era we live, with social media, everything is so instant, it is a lot of pressure. being a first—time mother under the scrutiny of not just the uk but the whole world, that is a

lot. what is it going to take for something really horrible to happen to her for us to be like, maybe it was a bit too harsh on her? maybe we should step back? people are just blaming everything on her. i think it's actually bullying and i think there is underlying racism in there. i think it has to be stopped. i think we have pushed them to this point. we? the public. there are loads of people who adore meghan and harry. when you go online. .. it's online, isn't it? people say that but when you go online and consta ntly but when you go online and constantly say negative things over and overand overagain, constantly say negative things over and over and over again, it has an effect on you. some people are like this is the life she chose. harry was born into this life. she can't help who she falls in love with. lets play that clip, we do have it now. it's not enough to just survive something, right? that's not the point of life. you have to thrive, you have to feel happy. i think i

really tried to adopt this british sensibility of a stiff upper lip. really tried to adopt this british sensibility of a stiff upper lipm has its, you know, has its advantages, i guess. i've tried! but i think what that does is probably really damaging and the biggest thing that i know is that i never thought that this would be easy, but i thought it would be fair. so interesting watching back those clips, knowing what we know now. hugo vickers, do you have sympathy for meghan? yes, of course i do. i think it very difficult, but she talks a lot about things like being happy. go back to the duke of windsor when he set off. he decided that he didn't, partly he didn't wa nt to that he didn't, partly he didn't want to be king but he wanted to marry someone with two husbands living went to xl. the first thing he happened when he was there if he

wa nted he happened when he was there if he wanted to come back again first he wa nted wanted to come back again first he wanted his wife to get a royal title, he wanted her to be received by his family. in fact, they didn't even come to his wedding. 0ver by his family. in fact, they didn't even come to his wedding. over the rear elite mega years, he realised he'd put her in a terrible situation... inaudible he took what he thought was the perceived path of happiness. i compare him to the queen who always did her duty faithfully and doesn't complain at all and she looks amazing in her 90s. i saw the duke of windsor once and i never saw anyone with such sad eyes. he to lead a pointless and terrible existence. tricky. angela, do you see echoes... remember, we have a young audience, they might not know what happened with edward viii and wallis simpson, do you see echoes?” don't think so it. meghan can do things and organise things and she has contacts and aims and ambitions. i think that in this modern world, she can survive very well. my

concern is for harry. he is obviously besotted with her. but i think he's become very weak. what is your evidence for saying that?” think if you look at him when they are out together, she talks, she likes to talk rather than him. on the tour of south africa for example, she answered all the questions and then someone directly asked prince harry something and she came in with a sentence. i think she feels she is more articulate than him. if we go back to that interview when they got engaged, he said that when they got engaged, he said that when he looked at her through the door, he felt he had to up his game and make good conversation. that's very interesting for a multimillionaire prince, who immediately put himself in a secondary position. he is still a man and is still human, he's a young boy. he is very damaged. about what? he had a terrible childhood. that doesn't have anything to do with his

life, are your past is your past is past. doesn't this mean this could be him that has pushed this forward question that he has had a terrible childhood and maybe he doesn't want to bea childhood and maybe he doesn't want to be a part of it any more? what are your sources telling you? when i spoke to harry he said he spent a very, very long time speaking to meghan about whether she could cope, what would be expected of her, how she had to be, because the other two serious girlfriends he had had couldn't cope with the spotlight. he fell at last he had someone who could handle it. i want to ask you go if! could handle it. i want to ask you go if i make, about some of the practicalities. i have so many comments i need to read. can they continue to keep their titles, their home at frogmore cottage and their protection officers, which according to reports this morning, cost £600,000 a year? well, i don't think we know the answer to any of those questions at this point. but when they talked about wanting to be financially independent, i think

what they were saying is they didn't wish to be a burden on the queen or by default the british taxpayer. so i think it would be quite difficult. i think it would be quite difficult. i think is very, very difficult to be half in and half out. they well find that they have to do really one or the other. i don't quite see how it is going to work. they say they will continue with her patronage terror but half the year they will be in america or canada. on their fa ncy be in america or canada. on their fancy new website, sorry to interrupt, sussex royale dot—com, it does say on the subject of frogmore cottage, which was refurbished recently using £2.1i million of taxpayer money, frogmore cottage will continue to be the property of the queen. the duke and duchess of sussex will continue to use frogmore cottage with permission from the queen as their official residence as they continue to support the monarchy, so their family will a lwa ys monarchy, so their family will always have a place to call home in the uk. when you look at some of the m essa 9 es we the uk. when you look at some of the

messages we are receiving, there is a lot of support for the couple, saying yes, go for it, you need to be happy but please can you pay that money back for the refurbishment of the cottage. do you think that is fair? no. why not? iwas the cottage. do you think that is fair? no. why not? i was on the show here talking about it. when you break it down... the royal family, they bring in a lot of tourism, 0k? that is a lot of revenue to our country. so i don't see... when you break it down, it is something like we pay an extra 60p or something, something like that. in the grand scheme of things, it's not that big ofa scheme of things, it's not that big of a deal. but on the other hand i would say, if you're trying to make an example and if you are trying to do everything the proper way, you should give that back because it's not a problem. when you are millionaires, you can give the money back, you know? on the subject are millionaires, they talk about working to become financially independent. hugo vickers, they have inherited wealth. a lot of harry's

income comes from his dad and the duchy of cornwall but whatjobs can you see them doing in the future? what brands might they advertise in the future? well, prince harry also inherited a lot of money from his mother. he is not exactly on the breadline forced up the point is, what you have a ready scene, the things she is used to doing in the past, branding and all that sort of thing... this is usually rather unpopular with the royal family, getting involved in commercial things. it's never really worked terribly well. i don't think it worked well with prince edward with his film company and so forth. i keep going on, i'm sorry i'm a bit old—fashioned, but the royal family are there to support the queen and when they go into the services and things like that, when they are gainfully employed on behalf of the nation, this works extremely well. i think you will find there might be a lot of criticism if they use their name and royal titles for the making of money. it'sjust name and royal titles for the making of money. it's just what name and royal titles for the making of money. it'sjust what i think. let me say this, sorry. simon on

twitter, i guess the racists will ta ke twitter, i guess the racists will take this as another victory. another says, it's the best thing meghan and harry could have done. the racist media, especially the disgusting tabloids, have been merciless towards meghan. true, in your view? 100%. that's merciless towards meghan. true, in your view? 10096. that's what i was saying earlier. i think the media and the public, to a certain degree, not everyone, but when you do go on twitter and you read the feed, from people in the public, they are really harsh on meghan, a lot harsher than i believe they have been ona harsher than i believe they have been on a lot of other royal family members. i only wonder... been on a lot of other royal family members. ionly wonder... kate been on a lot of other royal family members. i only wonder... kate as well. i wonder if she was white if they'd have treated her the same way. no way. ithink they'd have treated her the same way. no way. i think a lot of the things, they are racist and that is appalling that a lot of people don't like being told what to do, they don't like the hypocrisy of saying don't like the hypocrisy of saying don't fly that i'm flying. they feel resentful because... the royal family as part of our family, in a

way. if you are british, i am very royal. that is the problem there because what you said is the royal family asa because what you said is the royal family as a part of our family and meghan, toa family as a part of our family and meghan, to a lot of people, does not fit what a royal family should look like. i think she was going to be a fantastic breath of fresh air.” think that is a problem, a lot of people don't really like her because it's not what a princess should look like. she is not about...” it's not what a princess should look like. she is not about... i think she does look like a princess, actually. she looks sensational when she dresses. what has she done wrong? i think she is not patient enough. i think she doesn't understand the difference between being a celebrity and being royal. i think that is really fair, there are differences. harry said he never, ever differences. harry said he never, ever wanted to be a celebrity. there isa ever wanted to be a celebrity. there is a narrow line, the celebrity choices when they are in the public eye and a royal has a duty 24 hours a day. what are they going to do in the future, in your view? think it

will be very hard for harry. i think meghan might go and get a starring role in a film or a player or anything like that. she could go back to acting? yes, she could. she is not obliged not to, she has a option. i don't know what harry would do. what is he qualified for? he is fantastic with the invictus games, but he is a vulnerable person. he hates being in an office. the army tried to put him in there when he came back from afghanistan. his charity work. will he, what charity work will he be able to do? he doesn't want to just go and smile. if he wants to do something and earn some money, i think it will be very difficult. hugo vickers, what will they do, how could this u nfold what will they do, how could this unfold over the next 12—24 months? well, can i just unfold over the next 12—24 months? well, can ijust get back to one point? you are talking about earlier, saying she was unpopular as the idea of a princess. think how popular that wedding was at the incredible goodwill there was

towards both of them. windsor was absolutely packed with people, the global media where there, they were all terribly, terribly excited. actually, it's rather sad how it seems to have gone so wrong since then. so actually i have other concerns for the future, to be honest. i think... concerns for the future, to be honest. ithink... i hope they concerns for the future, to be honest. i think... i hope they will be happy but i have... i don't think it will work out terribly well, personally. you mean for their plans for how they want to live for them asa for how they want to live for them as a couple? we don't know what their plans are yet and i don't suppose they really know yet, despite all this internal discussion. it will be interesting to see what they come up with. usually, to cut yourself off, and go off somewhere else, into the unknown to some extent, a brave decision, and probably an unfortunate one, to be honest. what do you think is going to happen? i feelvery

be honest. what do you think is going to happen? i feel very sad about it, i think it will be very difficult to get someone to leave theirfamily, to difficult to get someone to leave their family, to leave their brother, have this very close thing about losing their mother, being royal, they know how hard it was in their childhood, i feel very sad about it. they are going to be happy, they are breaking free. so we had way people are acting, as if where they are, they won't have face time. do you know what i mean? she will be absolutely fine, millions of ideas. harry said he was leaving everything to meghan. they are a couple so they can work together.” think she is very dominant in the couple. i don't mind that as a couple. i don't mind that as a couple but i think harry, it is difficult for harry. angela, did you see this coming? i did. how? because if he is out with meghan, he is very

unhappy and stressed in case he said something wrong, puts a foot wrong. harry? this is what i mean, how are we harry? this is what i mean, how are we passing everything on to meghan and making it seem like she is this, you cannot speak unless i tell you to speak? i have never seen him as feeble, i have always seen him as... might actually be part of his character, he might not want to be in the limelight in that way. he has got the love of his life. she is the love of his life and he wants to leave the royal family, absolutely, i don't doubt that, but when i spent over a year with him, he was very lively, intuitive, funny. and you think he is now not because of meghan? i think he doesn't feel he is good enough for her, to be honest. i think he feels he does not

please her enough. it is not meghan's fault, it is his view of seeing himself. let me read more messages. carmont says, i think the tabloids are responsible for this decision. the attacks on meghan should have been stopped by buckingham palace. iam not sure buckingham palace. iam not sure buckingham palace. iam not sure buckingham palace could stop that. she says, prince harry, adored by the world, just as his mother was, quitting because of the media. daryl says, they need stripping off their titles if they are going to america. after all, us citizens do not use such titles are no uk taxpayers' money should be paid to them if they are living there. another says, i don't blame them, clear he adores her and doesn't want to see her unhappy, easy for us to think she has no right to be unhappy given how wealthy status, but that is not a lwa ys wealthy status, but that is not always enough. it is their life and they must live it in their own way.

we watched the clip from the interview with my colleague, mishal husain, when they had got engaged, harry was talking about how brilliant meghan would be in this role. hugo, why did it not work out like harry expected it to?” role. hugo, why did it not work out like harry expected it to? i don't think we know the answer to that question. i think it still could have worked out, actually. i still believe, as i said before, they were a dream team for the commonwealth, they had this role, they could go out and they undertook, as you said, very successful tour to australia, by and large successful tour to africa, and if i had been running their office, that is what i would have tried to keep them doing. i think they were really good at it and much better at making short, sharp visits, getting everyone terribly excited, both extremely good at it, and i think in a way they possibly offering quite a lot of that away which is a great shame.

lam sure of that away which is a great shame. i am sure other members of the royal family have suffered a lot —— they are possibly throwing quite a lot of way. they get on with the job and it usually pays off in the long run. it seems to me a very usually pays off in the long run. it seems to me a very quick decision andl seems to me a very quick decision and i don't think they have given it enough time. possibly a year—and—a—half is not long enough, they should have perhaps hung in longer and seen how things panned out. thank you. we were going to talk to dawn butler but she was called away to an urgent meeting, perhaps another time. we appreciate how much time you have given us this morning. breaking news, the northern rail franchise. it will only be able to continue for a number of months according to the most recent financial information. the transport secretary grant shapps has announced. northern has faced problems in recent years after new

timetables in may, 2018. let's talk to our transport correspondent, tom burridge. where do they run trains? it is huge for people in the north, biggest commuter network in the north, right across the country, in and out of big cities like manchester, leeds, places like that. bake for the rest of the country as well because it speaks about the mess the railways are in today —— big. and the action needed to sort them out and the punctuality we are seeing not only on northern in recent months, well below what passengers would expect for the money they pay for tickets. what the government has announced is, basically, the franchise, the northern franchise, has not got long left and it will be sorted quite soon, and in a matter of months, it will run out of money. not running to the end of its contract, it will end ina to the end of its contract, it will end in a couple of months because it will run out of money? at the end of last year, the government said before the election, look, northern

is in trouble, came clean about the extent of the problems and said, the franchise in its current state, current guise, the set up it is today, they are complicated contracts between train companies and the government and they stipulate goals and targets which train companies have to deliver within the course of a number of yea rs. within the course of a number of years. essentially, in october, before the election, the government says the franchise has to end, what we have on the table, two options, effectively. either we have to bring into the public sector, the operator of last resort, essentially a public train company which already runs trains on the london north—east railway, the intercity services at the east coast, essentially. the other option is a direct award, the government lets the train company keep operating while it gets things sorted. the announcement today is not a massive move. what does it mean for passengers? well the train

come, on time, well i get a seat? there is complexity beyond a lot of people, i think, there is complexity beyond a lot of people, ithink, it there is complexity beyond a lot of people, i think, it is very technical —— will the train come? will i get a seat? will it come on time? the government saying it will get it sorted. yes, i think the government's message is, look, passengers in the north, we are doing something. in reality, what negotiation is, and the government's decision is based on the negotiation, very complex legal negotiation, very complex legal negotiation between the train company arriva and the government. it is not as simple as the government saying, this is what we wa nt to government saying, this is what we want to do. arriva are operating the trains and because i mentioned it is about also the mess the railways are in today, i don't think you have transport companies lining up to ta ke transport companies lining up to take arriva's position. the public company bringing them in, i'm not sure that would be the favoured

option of the government because it isa option of the government because it is a massive commuter network, not straightforward process. thank you. coming up... he's not got a drugs problem — he's got lyme disease. justin bieber comes clean about rumours surrounding his health. and could this man be the next leader of the labour party? veteran mp barry gardiner says he's considering becoming the seventh candidate to throw his hat into the ring. we'll be asking him why. next, to our exclusive story today — a ministerial inquiry which cleared former welsh secretary, alun cairns, of misconduct over what he knew about the role of his former aide in the collapse of a rape trial, has been dismissed as a sham by the victim. in an exclusive interview with this programme, the woman says she wasn't even contacted as part of the investigation, which was focused on whether mr cairns had been truthful. it's understood the cabinet office didn't feel it was necessary or appropriate to contact the victim as part of the investigation. for the first time, she also tells this programme she felt subjected to a smear campaign by some members

of the party from the moment she reported the rape, adding the conservative party has work to do to make it a safe environment for young women to work in. the victim worked for alun cairns at the time she was raped and says she feels he didn't take her concerns seriously. this is ross england. he used to work for the conservative mp and former welsh secretary, alun cairns. in april, 2018, ross england was thrown out of a court for derailing a rape case. whilst giving evidence, he made allegations about the victim's sexual history when he shouldn't have done. thejudge told him, "i have no doubt it was deliberate on your part to sabotage this trial." the anger that i felt, having gone through everything in court and being so close to the end, and hejust lied so brazenly, i thought, "this man feels like he's untouchable." and he was made to feel like that by the conservative party.

alun cairns resigned as welsh secretary in november last year over claims he knew as far back as august, 2018, what ross england had done when he endorsed him as conservative candidate for the welsh assembly. however, mr cairns always denied knowing what happened. now, in an exclusive interview, the victim, who we're calling lucy, says she was subjected to a smear campaign before the trial by members of the welsh conservative party. the only way that i can describe it is a campaign of hatred towards me that i'd had the gall to tell the police what happened, and why would i notjust let it go? it was as if i was making things very awkward for everybody else. lucy worked for alun cairns at the time she was attacked. i wonder if you could tell us as much or as little as you want to do about what happened? i was at a house—warming party for ross, who just moved

in with his girlfriend, kathryn. she told us, if we needed to stay there, then that wouldn't be an issue because it was quite a big house with a lot of bedrooms. and just to be clear, ross was your fellow conservative party worker? yes, he was. he worked for the same member of parliament. and kathryn was his girlfriend? yes, that's correct. we were all part of a friendship group. so, at the party, i went to bed not thinking anything of it, but when i woke up, i was being attacked. i thought i could just let this happen, but then something kicked in and i managed to fight him off. i ran downstairs and told a friend. lucy had been raped by a man called james hackett, who she met for the first time at the party that night. he also worked in politics. could you describe how some people in the conservative party treated you after it became clear that you were alleging that this man had raped you? even on the night that it happened, kathryn yelled to the police,

"she's making this up," before anybody had any facts, and i think thatjust kind of set the tone for the next two years. between that and the trials, my life was made absolutely miserable. it felt like a complete smear campaign. like what? what kind of things were people saying? basically trying to spread it about that i'd slept with certain people and therefore i must have deserved what had happened, i must have asked for it. they were trying to say i'd lied about other things. well, let me ask you, did you tell your boss, your direct boss, alun cairns, for whom you worked, did you tell him what other people were saying about you that was wrong and inaccurate? yeah, i told him unequivocally what was happening — he was my employer. i got a phone call from the police one day when i was at work telling me what kathryn had said to them and could i explain why she might have said this. and ijust broke down. i went into the office and wept, saying, "this is what i'm having to deal with." in a statement, kathryn kelloway,

who's a conservative councillor, told this programme... "this is a deeply distressing situation. i deny any wrongdoing whatsoever. i've told nothing but the truth throughout, including to the police and in court as a witness. and i complied fully with the conditions of the court before, during and after all three trials." what was alun cairns' response when you told him what was going on? word for word, "i think you're being a bit harsh." he said that to you? yes. one day we were in the car and i was angry, and i said, "do you realise how small i feel? "i feel tiny because nobody believes what i'm saying." and i remember that was the turning point where i just thought, "ok, you don't get it. "if that is your reaction, i can't help you any more." your boss, alun cairns, knew what was going on, you told him, he was aware of it, and yet he brought in ross england, who'd been smearing you, you say, to work alongside you in the office. yes.

as mr cairn's campaign manager. yes, that's correct. what did you think about that? i knew there was a good chance he'd want ross to work on his campaign, as he was very good at his job and he'd worked with him before, so, when he brought him in, i walked out and said, "this isn't a case of me or him, but i can't work with him. therefore, if you do choose him, i'm going to have to go." in a statement to this programme, mr cairns told us, "i'm extremely sorry for the trauma and suffering lucy has faced. rape is a heinous crime. i believe that my parliamentary staff and i had supported her in a caring and compassionate way throughout. lucy recognised this in messages received at the time." before the first trial, you were contacted by someone from the conservative party and he asked you to meet him. you knew this person. we're not going name him cos it doesn't really make any

difference who it was. why did he want to meet you? well, he worked in conservative hq in wales, and i'd known him for years. he invited me for a coffee, which i assumed was to wish me well for the trial. but when i got there, he said, "there's a reason i've asked you here," and started listing lies that i'd supposedly told about him. apparently, i told kathryn that he had tried to rape me at a party before. i denied it because i never said it. i became very aware of how much he was looking at his phone. my gut instinct told me it was being recorded. and why do you think he was recording your conversation? to give to the defence. what other reason would he need a recording of us speaking? and the judge described it, this recorded conversation, as political machinations. is that right? yes, he did. in april, 2018, the trial was derailed when ross england gave evidence to the court. the prosecuting barrister asked him, "was she, lucy, a friend and work

colleague of yours at the time?" ross england replied, "yes, i was worried about her being there because we'd had casual sex on two..." and then the prosecuting barrister said, "i'm sorry?" to which mr england continued, "..on two occasions, "one of which was group sex." the trial was immediately halted and subsequently collapsed. ross england says, "i was not told that anything had been ruled inadmissible prior to my testimony. i gave an honest answer, honouring the oath i took to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth." the anger that i felt, having gone through everything in court and being so close to the end, and hejust lied so brazenly, i thought, "this man feels like he's untouchable, and he was made to feel like that by the conservative party." the trial was brought to an end and i thought,

"i'll never see justice now." but there was another trial and james hackett was found guilty. he was sentenced to five years in prison. in december, 2018, eight months after the trial collapsed, alun cairns endorsed ross england as a candidate for the welsh assembly. the following year, mr cairns claimed he didn't know what mr england had done. what about the email, mr cairns? but bbc wales obtained an email addressed to mr cairns discussing the very case. that had been sent back in august, 2018. as a result, mr cairns stepped down as welsh secretary. despite resigning from the cabinet, alun cairns went on to increase his majority in the vale of glamorgan in the general election. on december 20th, eight days after the election, a ministerial investigation concluded that alun cairns had not breached the ministerial code but did state it was unlikely that mr cairns would not have been told something about ross england's role in the collapse of the trial. the whole thing feels like a sham. what kind of investigation doesn't contact the person who is most affected?

it makes me question how seriously it was actually carried out. this was a deflection until after the general election, not a genuine investigation into alun's truthfulness. i would have hoped that alun would have used the inquiry as an opportunity to be honest, and it's regretful that he did not. fortunately, nobody with an ounce of common sense believes his ludicrous claim that he did not know. meanwhile, ross england has been suspended from the conservative party pending an investigation. again, what investigation? we know what he did. i don't understand. is that not enough? what do you think of the conservative party now? the conservative party has a lot of work to do to make this a safe environment for young women to work in. i'm not saying it's an old boys' club — it'sjust a boys' club. as long as you're male, you'll be fine. now, the conservative party in wales have said this in a statement. "we are deeply sorry for the circumstances surrounding

"the collapse of the trial and the deep distress this must "have caused the victim, her family and friends." do you accept that apology? i don't expect them to apologise for what ross did in collapsing the trial, because they didn't do it. what i am expecting them to apologise for is the fact that they didn't think it was a big enough problem before them selecting him as a candidate. how much regret do you feel about the fact that you felt forced to leave yourjob in politics, working for the conservative party in wales, when that was a really big part of your life? it definitely felt like members of the conservative party were putting me on trial. they tried their very best, but they just didn't win. the cabinet office declined to comment. there's still a few days for candidates to announce they're running to be next leader of the labour party. and a new potential runner emerged last night. he's called barry gardiner. he's the shadow international trade

secretary, he's a veteran of the labour party — he's been mp for brent north since 1997 and has served in mr corbyn's front bench team since 2016. he's the son of olympic footballerjohn gardiner. and he's currently in the united arab emirates at a conference. are you going to stand? i have not quite made up my mind, i'm still talking with people. i will make a decision very soon. leaders need to be decisive, the fact you cannot make up your mind whether to stand is perhaps not a good sign. look, i have enormous respect for all of my collea g u es have enormous respect for all of my colleagues who are standing. i think any one of them would make a much better prime minister than boris johnson, quite frankly. if i do stand, it will be because i believe that i have the best chance of winning a general election that can bring ina winning a general election that can bring in a labour government, that can give hope to people. everybody wa nts to can give hope to people. everybody wants to succeed in life, they want to do well. they want a secure job,

decent home. forfar too many of them for the past ten years, that seemed out of reach. i believe that under my leadership, we could bring ina labour under my leadership, we could bring in a labour government that could give them that hope. that is your pitch, i don't know why you are being so coy about this, just tell us being so coy about this, just tell us now, being so coy about this, just tell us now, you are being so coy about this, just tell us now, you are going to stand. no, i'm not going to say that. i will not stand unless it is very late now to be entering this race and i do so because i want to energise it, because i want to energise it, because i want to energise it, because i want to be sure that it can get the sort of dynamism into the debate that it needs. you are the debate that it needs. you are the man to bring dynamism into the debate, are you? what i will do is, ifi debate, are you? what i will do is, if i know that i can secure the 22 votes necessary in order to go forward to the next stage, then i will stand. but until i have that assurance from my colleagues, than i am not going to go any further than

consider it at the moment. right, you might have to wait, nominations close on monday, 2:30pm, you might ta ke close on monday, 2:30pm, you might take it to the wire. there is a lot of talking time to do, but many collea g u es of talking time to do, but many colleagues have already committed themselves and i respect that. talking of talking, len mccluskey, has he talk to you, the boss of unite community the backings of unions, he said it was fake news he had encouraged you to stand? he is absolutely right. let me be clear. he did not phone me, he did not ask me to stand, nor did anybody else on his behalf. but i would say of course, len mccluskey, if you are watching, i would course, len mccluskey, if you are watching, iwould be course, len mccluskey, if you are watching, i would be very pleased to get a phone call from you, i would like to talk through with you how we can improve employment rights in this country, how we can have safer standards at work, all the things we ca re standards at work, all the things we care about, both of us, in terms of creating a good and dynamic economy. and i would of course love to have

his support. that is a come and get me plea, if ever i heard one. you we re me plea, if ever i heard one. you were recorded in 2018 saying your pa rty‘s were recorded in 2018 saying your party's brexit strategy was, i'm going to say, the b word, bullocks. keir starmer was one of the advocates of that strategy. what message would it send to voters if he wins the leadership? i'm not going to get into disparaging any of my colleagues, those remarks were at a private meeting and they were taken at a private meeting out of context, that is in the past. the brexit debate has moved on substantially since then. you were right, it would seem. look, what i was saying was you cannot think you can maintain all the benefits of the clu b can maintain all the benefits of the club when you are leaving it. that

is the simple message i had then. i expressed myself in a rather forceful and perhaps unfortunate way. but that has brought around —— thatis way. but that has brought around —— that is water under the bridge. i have huge respect for my colleagues andi have huge respect for my colleagues and i don't want to get into argy—bargy. and i don't want to get into argy-bargy. just be clear, for example, keir starmer, clive lewis, what are you offering that they can't, or rebecca long—bailey?” what are you offering that they can't, or rebecca long-bailey? i can wina can't, or rebecca long-bailey? i can win a general election. and they can't? i am setting out what i believe is the key reason colleagues, many of whom have spoken to me and encouraged me to stand, have said... how are you so confident you could win a general election against boris johnson?” believe i have the ability to communicate, bring back the dynamism of debate that is necessary. i believe all of my colleagues

standing are eminently capable, eminently capable of being a better prime minister than boris johnson, but the key thing is, we have to win the keys to downing street, we have to become a labour government, we have to stop talking to ourselves and start talking to the country. final chance before i say goodbye to you in abu dhabi to announce you are standing for the leadership of the labour party. i am here in abu dhabi because i care passionately about climate change, i have worked on it... did you fly there? yes, of course. that is not good. it will be offset. we are looking today at the way in which 3 billion people in the world suffer from cooking way in which 3 billion people in the world sufferfrom cooking on charcoal and the impact it has on forestry, the impacts on their lungs and the fact that 4 million people each year die from respiratory diseases because of that. thank you.

climate change affects all of our lives. thank you for talking to us from abu dhabi. 0n the edge of our seats to see what his decision will be. justin bieber has revealed on instagram that he's been diagosed with lyme disease. let's talk to our reporter anna collinson. 0ver over the past year, fans ofjustin bieber have been quite concerned, photographed several times looking visibly upset, crying, and there has been speculation on social media it might bea been speculation on social media it might be a drug problem, depression. he has posted on instagram saying that, while some of you suggested i look like i was en masse, they fail to realise he had recently been diagnosed with lyme disease and a serious case of what he calls chronic momo —— on meth. he said he would be back better than ever? it isa would be back better than ever? it is a bacterial infection caused by text, muscle pain, tiredness, fever,

normally develops after a bite. spread by ticks. for some, normally develops after a bite. spread by ticks. forsome, it normally develops after a bite. spread by ticks. for some, it can ta ke yea rs spread by ticks. for some, it can take years to clear up. if you are concerned, talk to your doctor. justin bieber is saying he will be talking about his problems in a new series on youtube and you can learn all about what he has been battling and overcoming and whenever a celebrity talks about a health condition, it raises awareness. this is not any celebrity, justin bieber, 120 million followers on instagram, one of the most followed accounts. it is big. thank you. thank you for your company. back tomorrow at 10am. have a lovely day. bbc newsroom live is next. good morning. many saw rain this morning and even hill snow in northern england, central and southern areas of scotland. that is coming from the area of low pressure here, moving north and east, hot of

its heels, another area of low pressure bringing thundery rain this afternoon and this evening. as the rain cleared from the north—east, it could linger in eastern scotland, drizzle here on the east coast of england. 0therwise dry and brighter skies developing. real difference in temperatures. 10—14 for england and wales. chilly for scotland and northern ireland. 4—6 here. thundery rain in the south will gradually clear away and some clear skies going into tomorrow morning and that will allow a frost across northern england and scotland and further south not quite as cold. friday, quite quiet for many, dry, bright, some sunshine. later in the day, cloud increasing, strengthening winds, and rain moving into scotland and northern ireland. goodbye for now.

you re watching bbc newsroom live. it's11am and these are the main stories this morning: senior royals are said to be "hurt" by prince harry and meghan's decision to step back from the family. the couple will split their time between the us and uk. meghan and harry have torpedoed the palace and the ripple effects have even hit here in hollywood, where they're rolling out the red carpet for pretty much the two biggest a—listers in the world. december was the worst month for a&e departments in england since the current targets were introduced — with a fifth of patients waiting more than four hours to be seen. america says it is ready to engage in serious negotiations with iran, the day after its bases in iraq were hit by iranian missiles.