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tv   Dateline London  BBC News  January 18, 2020 11:30am-12:01pm GMT

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"with god on our side we slap the face of the united states." 50 said iran's supreme leader ali khamenei when he led friday prayers this week for the first time in eight years. he warned anti—government protestors not to serve as stooges for enemies seeking to capitalise on the tragedy of the downed airliner. how compelling is this campaign for the hearts and minds of the iranian public? in, let's start with you. it has provoked a big yawn because he had nothing new to say, he repeated old themes about enemies and so on. but themes about enemies and so on. but the focus now is on the incompetence of his regime. they couldn't even handle the funeral is the general soleimani, 80 people were killed and the crowds in care man, and
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yesterday it turned out they had even made spelling error on the tombstone of the general. so they have to change the arabic they wrote, iranians don't speak arabic. so they have to change that, too. and during friday's prayers, we saw, you can still see it on the internet, the president leaving the assembly before the ayatollah even gets up from his prayers, talking to god and so on. suddenly you see the president getting up and walking away. was it in protest? did he get bored like the other iranians? it reminded me of nikolai chesky, in his last days... the romanian dictator, for those who remember.
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talking about how good socialism is, how they are surrounded by enemies, it would do the trick. the problem with a run at the moment is it is like a with a run at the moment is it is likea ship with a run at the moment is it is like a ship adrift in a storm, or in many different storms, without a captain. and this is really the dangerous point because at least until a year ago people within the regime would listen to khamenei, today they do not, they ignore him. at the same time, the vacuum that is created is not filled by anything else. society, like nature, theur is a vacuum, it doesn't want to see nothing in place of something. and thatis nothing in place of something. and that is the main problem iran is facing at the moment. ned, your reflections ? facing at the moment. ned, your reflections? i defer to their on how desperate this is. the anything i would say is, one, that over four decades the demise of this regime
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has been predicted more than once before. and as someone who was based in tehran during a hostage crisis after ayatollah khamenei took over, it is very unpredictable country in many ways, in that there is always at least two irans, one that paid lip service to the republic but went oi'i lip service to the republic but went on with life. and now two things are different, one, the dire economic straits because the so—called maximum pressure position by the us does seem to be having some effect, and the other, and this is kind of the elephant in the room, is it could be argued, assuming the islamic republic and the ayatollah survive this political challenge, that they are kind of blessed by having donald trump as an enemy, in that the americans are hostile and
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if you read some of trump's speeches and some of pompeo's speeches, there isa and some of pompeo's speeches, there is a real determination to confront iranians behaviour in the region, etc. but the other tide is trump really wants to get out, and so there is a temptation if you are the iranians to say, yes, this is a fearsome enemy, but does it have staying power? and that idea of trump isa staying power? and that idea of trump is a trump card for the iranian regime, we saw president trump in response to the friday prayers from ayatollah khamenei suggesting that the supreme leader, not so supreme and should be careful with his words. but that runs both ways. what i think is bizarre and was totally unpredictable about the events of the last ten days or so, if you look back before the airliner was shutdown, president trump was on
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an international hot seat for the attack and the legality of killing the iranian general, was really facing questioning all over the world for this really brazen and obviously completely effective targeted attack, but the shooting down has completely changed that and served to trump as max weber. he seems to be good at thinking short—term, and if you look at the last ten days or so he should have turned this to advantage domestically because he can say look at all the pressure the iranians are now under because of what we did. it has been a bizarre and unpredictable turn of events. the european damage, europeans have played an important role in getting around the nuclear table with a deal in 2015, and holding that together with all kinds of sticking plaster and bandages over the next couple of years, and after trump withdrew from it, and 110w after trump withdrew from it, and now the europeans are invoking the dispute mechanism which may call
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time on it altogether. and that is one of the saddest aspects of the current iranian crisis. the absolute absence of the eu diplomacy which has played such an extraordinary role to get to the iran nuclear deal. the former top eu diplomat would relentlessly make the iran nuclear deal work, now it is falling apart. —— worked relentlessly. now we see an absence of any strong voice from eu diplomacy as a block. and we see the supremacy of the voice of conflict, the american way of doing things. sol voice of conflict, the american way of doing things. so i think it is incredibly sad and worrying moment for the world as a whole. one brief sliver of hope is, before trump pulled the americans out of the nuclear deal, the europeans were
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working very hard behind the scenes to say, don't pull out, and we will negotiate with you, kind of new deal, a kind of deal plus one with trump tower logo on it, and then we can all claim victory and they won't have a nuclear weapon. it is interesting that boris johnson revived that idea. it is quite surprising. and trump tweeted that thatis surprising. and trump tweeted that that is a good idea, so if we are looking for hope maybe watch that space. do all of these challenges and threats from outside, if you are the iranian government facing all this, where can they go next? ned mentioned the economic crisis, we've heard about the european angle, you talked about a vacuum of leadership, where has it come from and where will it go? the problem in discussing iran is too much attention is paid to foreign policy
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aspects, for example a little bit of trump bashing, a little bit of european adulation, and things like that. for a nuclear deal... they are all irrelevant. at the moment in around there is an absence of leadership, the iranian government 01’ leadership, the iranian government or whatever it is called cannot take any decisions and they say they will neither fight any decisions and they say they will neitherfight a any decisions and they say they will neither fight a war no negotiate, so what you do? there are two ways of solving a problem. yes, but you talked about the vacuum before, but as ned points out the economic challenges, the imf are talking about nearly a 10% contraction of the iranians economy this year. how cani the iranians economy this year. how can i sit there doing nothing with a vacuum? they say they need $60 billion, they are trying to arrange loa n billion, they are trying to arrange loan share here and there, and survive until after the american presidential election. but that is not going to solve their problem.
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the problem is that nobody within the present didn't tell the present regime is capable of coming up with a solution for around's main problems. we have to wait and see. of course this wayward ship will find a captain. i am confident of that. but at the moment, as our friend here said, there are two iran is, iran is a country and a nation, continuing life, and iran as khamenei ideology leading it into bigger and bigger problems. we are out of time on the problems of the iranian leadership. now we turn to the problems of the american leadership. the president is on trial for only the third time in american history. the senators responsible for trying him have sworn an oath to deliver impartial justice, but the impeachment drama has been bitterly partisan until now and this is an election year.
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so, greg, will we get impartial justice? no, not at all, not even close. it's not even clear whether witnesses will be called, what sort of testimony might be permissible. and the senate majority leader was talking about dismissing the charges out of hand, which will not happen. but given the strong majority in the senate for the republicans and the need for a two thirds vote, this is a predetermined result that the president will be acquitted. the key question and the difficult question is, if you look to november, our election, the only thing that really matters from this is what is the impact on 300, 400, 500,000 voters in the upper midwest and pennsylvania, wisconsin, michigan. will this drama over impeachment sway mines or will it reinforce in trump space... why do you say those
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are the only minds that matter?|j think are the only minds that matter?” think it is likely the democrats can hold on to the states they had last time around with hillary clinton, andi time around with hillary clinton, and i think it is likely trump can hold on to states with the exception of those contested states that gave the presidency to trump. and it is a relatively small number of voters who could swing there, and you could look at the street polling, you could look at how white where men are feeling this or how african—american voters are seeing it, but the real question is no one knows yet and that's way too early. that is what this means, how will it affect the electoral results, those states in november? ned? iwould only add there is a deeper irony to this, because even though the republicans, there is a vanishing small number of republican senators who are likely even to break ranks to ask the witnesses, for example, but it is against a background of
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unlike previous such controversies, the facts are already known. in other words, there is no great mystery, this happened. if it were not for the partisanship in the us theissue not for the partisanship in the us the issue the republicans would face is not whether this was wrong or whether it happened, but whether it rises to the level of an impeachable offe nce. rises to the level of an impeachable offence. do you have a view on that? whether it does? i have a view on that because i think this president has been bad on so many levels for the us. but my view is supremely irrelevant. the view i have that i think is more important is that i think is more important is that i think it is important for the american system of government that this impeachment, even if it ends an acquittal, which it well, that the process not be a circus, that there be some sort of sobriety. and one of
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the interesting things to watch as this unfolds will be the effect of the chiefjustice of the us who is the chiefjustice of the us who is the presiding officer, who will do everything he cannot to intervene, but who i think, given his record and his beliefs, does care about the importance of the institutions and making this a serious trial. there is not only donald trump on trial. there is the entire american constitutional system, because the impeachment process was never meant to be partisan and it was always this idea that evidence and proper trial would matter. what we are seeing now, which is extraordinary, is the complete demolition of any apparent respect for evidence and truths. so the fact that almost everybody assumes that donald trump
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will get away with it, regardless of the tonnes of evidence, damning evidence put on the table, that in my mind is blowing incredible damage from all over the world to america and really affecting the credibility of america is a constitutional system, because it has become a mockery ofjustice. going back to what the president himself can do to distract attention, i mentioned at the top that while the trial was beginning he was declaring and signing his trade deal with china. an contrasting himself with what he called the do nothing democrats. here i am, fulfilling my promise to bring backjobs. is that an effective stance for him? absolutely. i have been impressed with his media operation, may be a one—man show, but he has been really effective, in my view, since he
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escaped the molar report unscathed. the last six months he has really been able to set the agenda, to distract attention, to sort of sail through things, and my guess is he will sail through this senate trial relatively unscathed and just come out tweeting. and they are, we have not looked at the kind of trade element of the deal, because one of the things about the us china trade deal is it puts in place a kind of slightly different version of us free trade, it is a kind of managed trade, eu, china will deliver on this this and this, rather than the straight message we are used to of old. so not just straight message we are used to of old. so notjust the politics of the us on trial at the moment, but the economic model. the us has a was talked about free trade but not practised it when it came to its own interests. they will spend an excuse, there are hundreds of examples. even the rules they wrote, the us is the inventor of the modern
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world, all the institutions and so on, they wrote it themselves with a little bit of second violin from the british. so you are saying there is quite a big gap between rhetoric and reality? absolutely. and now trump finds china in a weak position because chinese growth rate is declining, china is finding some political problems in hong kong, the europeans are getting cool about china and so on. so he is trying to use the opportunity to put his own imprint ona use the opportunity to put his own imprint on a very small part of trade with china. but going back to the impeachment business, i think it is also important to note that the democrats are trying to cover their owi'i democrats are trying to cover their own nakedness with this impeachment. they have nothing to offer, they don't have a candidate, although candidates are weak, as you can have a look at them, and they don't have an alternative programme, so the best thing is to impeach. and this
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is bad for american democracy. just before we leave this topic, last word ned on the rhetoric and reality in the trade message, and the democrats. first, i think in the trade message, and the democrats. first, ithink the democrats. first, ithink the democrats were reluctant to go down this road, certainly nancy pelosi was. and i think the facts forced into this, and i think they realise the dangers. and i agree, i don't know how this election will transpire because the democrats don't have an obvious strong candidate yet, but that is what the nominating process is for. and finally come on trade, it is important to recognise this is a small sliver of the trade dispute with china, and i know it is just a first tranche, but some of the big issues like chinese state support for industries and deep competition issues have not yet even been addressed, so there is a lot of road ahead. we will leave the road ahead
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for now on that score and turn to a different big road. climate change. politicians once presented climate change as a crisis that might happen in the future if we're not careful now. but the natural historian sir david attenborough says australian bushfires have demonstrated that the crisis is now. tech company microsoft is among those vowing action, with a promise to be notjust carbon neutral but carbon negative by 2030. so what is holding up governments? annalisa? there are a lot of terrifying news and australia is one of those on the front of climate change. but this is a matter of life and death, and i think the tone is changing everywhere across the board. so there is a clear awareness 110w board. so there is a clear awareness now that capitalism and being profit driven is killing the planet so
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something has to change there. so there is to be a kind of complete radical shift in the money world, and this is happening... one of the interesting things about davos next week... interesting things about davos next week. . . the interesting things about davos next week... the meeting of the world's elite of government and business.“ that it will be entirely dedicated to climate change. yes, there will be greater, but there will also be mark carney, one of the most important bankers in the world, the former head of the bank of england, and there will be larry think who speaks for blackrock. the biggest investment fund in the world. and they are leading the way, saying it isa minor they are leading the way, saying it is a minor problem. so there is a sta nford is a minor problem. so there is a stanford university study which will be presented in davos which has put a price tag, so the world needs to find 73 trillions to change the way
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we run energy, to transition to carbon zero economy we need 73 trillion. where will it come from? did stamford come up with the answer? no, but the eu which is one of the richest blocks in the world has taken this direction very clearly, there will also be the new commission president in davos with the new green deal which has put the money on the table. and basically this plan is very detailed, the green dealfrom this plan is very detailed, the green deal from the this plan is very detailed, the green dealfrom the eu, it has been analysed last week in the european parliament, and it is real. it is basically putting a lot of money, 100 billion euros for the time being, which is going to go where it hurts, so how do we close down the carbon fossil fuels industry? hurts, so how do we close down the carbon fossilfuels industry? there will be a lot ofjob losses, a lot of restructuring to do, and how do
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we transition? that is the money on the table. and i think this is new. some will say, sir david attenborough said, it was china that needed to set an example. annalisa mentions europe, but what about the big vast growing economies, china, india, and of course what is the us doing? the us is not as catastrophic as one would think, because some of the big important industrial states like california are passing legislation and taking action and some of the us —based tech companies are taking a very strong, aggressive sta nce are taking a very strong, aggressive stance to go carbon negative in ten years is really ambitious. i'm not quite sure how one does that. but the federal government, donald trump does not believe in it, so that is having a very strong impact rippling through the system. so the us, the
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people who believe in climate change are hanging their heads at the white house on that. going back to the point about financial incentives and capitalism regulated to what degree, do you see 2020 as potentially a year that is a watershed, that people really do something different rather than just talking differently? i think the political atmosphere has changed. i am a little sceptical, i want to think this is a real watershed because i think it is such an important issue. i think we still have not seen the political proof of that, i think if you look at emmanuel macron in france, for instance, who raised fuel duties and, in part, led to the g illet fuel duties and, in part, led to the gillet shown and the national demonstrations against him. other leaders around the world will use that as either proof or a rationale oran that as either proof or a rationale or an excuse to say, look, this all sounds good on paper but this costs
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money, it requires economic choices, and i'm not sure we are there yet. and i think annalisa is right, i think when you have people like mark carney saying that, serious members of the economic... financial elite insiders. and indeed greta sunbird. it takes around 50 years for an idea to become fashionable in the west, and this idea has not become fashionable. the first time they talked about it was harold wilson in 1964 during the general election, that the planet is in danger and so on. mrs thatcher talked about it at the united nations during her speech day, but gradually it has become fashionable, for example a few years ago it was the ozone hole we were worried about, before that it was
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colonialism, before that it was development... and is fashionable enough to trigger action?” development... and is fashionable enough to trigger action? i don't think so. i don't expect anything to come out of places like davos. i we nt come out of places like davos. i went to davos for the first meeting in 20 years because human affairs cannot be planned. this is a pseudo— marxian idea that some people can sit down... i am going to take your pseudo— marxian idea and one word from each of you on the individual action that can be planned, i know the big structural issues are less easy to plan. greg, what is your resolution for 2020? easy to plan. greg, what is your resolution for 2020 ?” easy to plan. greg, what is your resolution for 2020? i have dropped red meat and pretty much all meet. annalisa? yes, the same, trying to be much more vegan and i cycle and i re cycle. be much more vegan and i cycle and i recycle. ned, do you still fly? i fly less a nd recycle. ned, do you still fly? i fly less and less but it's a
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function of being 98 years old, i do a lot less of a lot of things! yeah, have you given up fast fashion? you look very fashionable. maybe i buy fewer issues, i am obsessed with shoes. but i never wear them. i wish we had longer to discuss that. that's it for dateline london for this week. we're back next week at the same time. goodbye. hello there. we have been used to mild wet and windy weather, so things this weekend are going to be very different. instead of low pressure, we actually have an area of high pressure building in, settling things down.
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that means for most of us this weekend it is going to be dry. the sunshine will be out, the winds could be strong, but it will be cold. we have already had a frost this morning. there will be another one this morning as well. this weather watcher picture gives a flavour of how it has been. down to —2, —3 or so. there have also been some showers of a wintry flavour in scotland already. those showers will start to become fewer through the rest of the day as the winds ease a bit and it should then turn dry for northern ireland and north—west england. more cloud coming in here spilling into wales in the south—west, otherwise blue skies and sunshine and lighter winds. maximum temperature around six to eight degrees. that is near normal for this time of year. clear skies, light winds and showers fading away from scotland, we are going to get a frost developing widely, and even in some towns and cities temperatures could be down to —2 or —3. the exception could be the highlands and islands of scotland. here we have a milder wind coming in from the atlantic around the top of the area of high pressure.
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follow the lines all around and into the southern part of the north sea and there could be some showers flirting with some of these coastal areas early in the morning. apart from that, and the cloud that is coming in and the stronger wind into the north—west of scotland, we have got light winds, plenty of blue skies, a cold crisp winter's day tomorrow. and again, temperatures typically seven or eight degrees. it will be milder where it is cloudier towards the highlands and islands. that milder atlantic air will eventually push its way south through next week as the high pressure gets squeezed southwards, but as we move into monday, quite a contrast across the uk. milder where it is cloudier and breezier further north, colder further south where it is clearer. there may be some mist and fog around in the morning, slowly lifting. then the sunshine develops once again. more of a breeze, though, for northern ireland, scotland, bringing in some more cloud, especially western scotland. pretty mild, though, for the north—east of scotland. further south, after a frosty start, again seven or eight degrees. into next week, you will notice,
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well, where does the sun go? it looks like is going to cloud over more. there could be some mist and fog patches, but with the cloud around it won't be as cold at night.
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this is bbc news. the headlines at midday. the chancellor warns business leaders that there will "not be alignment" with eu rules in any post—brexit trade agreement — and that some businesses will benefit while "some won't". a clock projected on the walls of downing street — one of a series of events announced to mark the moment the uk leaves the eu. and brexit is one of the subjects the contenders for the labour leadership are tackling in their first hustings event in liverpool. british scientists suggest the number of people already infected by a new virus emerging in china is far greater than official figures suggest. heavy rain and thunderstorms douse fires in eastern australia but bring flooding to some areas.

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