hello, it's wednesday, it's ten o'clock, i'm victoria derbyshire, and we're live from new broadcasting house. the family of a man who wheeled himself out of hospital and took his own life after being locked out of a mental health ward have received damages from the two nhs trusts responsible for his care. you know by the look on his face, it is a look that you will never forget. and the last time i saw him, i got that look and i turned round to him at the hospital bed and i said, stay calm, i won't be long, you're coming home. that was the last time i saw

him. we will bring you the full interview with the family of tony collins in the next few minutes. also, the uk will begin monitoring to flights arriving from china after the spread of a new virus which has killed nine people and infected more than 400 others. so concerned are some scientists they have said people should not even travel to the to city of wuhan and nobody should leave it, that city is 11 million people and this is at a time of the spring festival, the most important couple of weeks really on the chinese calendar. pay—out! round the back! pay-out! round the back! we will talk to writer and director armando iannucci on his colour—blind casting for his new film, the personal life of david copperfield.” for his new film, the personal life of david copperfield. i could see him as david and after that, you

think, does he have an indian father? no, ijust want to choose people who just inhabit the spirit of the character, like dev. hi, welcome to the programme. we're live until 11 this morning. use the hashtag victorialive. email victoria@bbc.co.uk, text 61124 — it'll cost the standard network rate. first annita mcveigh has the news. thank you and good morning. health officials in china have warned the coronavirus could mutate and spread further. so far, nine people have died and more than 400 have been infected. the authorities say they are the most critical stage of controlling the virus. the government here is announcing a number of measures to monitor flights arriving in britain directly from china. the measures will apply to flights from wuhan province to heathrow airport.

the family of a man who killed himself while a patient at bedford hospital have won a five figure settlement with two nhs trusts, criticising the decision to discharge him from a secure unit. 41—year—old tony collins had a history of mental health problems, and had attempted suicide in the weeks before his death at the end of 2018. his family say there were repeated failings which led to his suicide. newest analysis for the bbc says poor mental health in the workplace has risen in the last two years. cost everton to more than £40 billion a year. they say it is down toa billion a year. they say it is down to a combination of rising wages and an increase in presenteeism, where employees come in even if they are u nwell employees come in even if they are unwell and less productive. strict new child safety standards for tech companies are being unveiled by the uk's data watchdog. the information commissioner says the so called "age appropriate design code" could be transformational.

it includes 15 standards which internet companies will be expected to use when designing products for young people. the duchess of cambridge has launched a uk—wide survey to help improve early childhood. in the survey, called five big questions, participants are asked for their opinion on what influences development and what period of childhood is most important for children's happiness. the nspcc says the survey will "provide fascinating insight into how we think about the early years and will be a vital source of information". the saudi authorities have denied that the phone of the amazon founder, jeff bezos, was hacked by the kingdom's crown prince, mohammed bin salman. a message from a phone number used by the prince had been implicated in the data breach, according to reports. in a tweet, saudi arabia's embassy in washington described the allegation in british and us newspapers as absurd. coca cola has said it won't stop using plastic bottles because it says consumers still want them.

a senior manager has told the bbc using only aluminium and glass packaging could push up the firm's carbon footprint. coca cola produces about 3 million tonnes of plastic packaging a year. at the company, one of the biggest producers of plastic raced, has promised to recycle as many plastic bottles as it uses by 2030. a long lost painting by the artist ls lowry has been sold at auction for more than £2.6 million. the work, called "the mill, pendlebury", depicts one of the artist's typical scenes in north—west england, and was painted in 1943. it had belonged to a manchester—born scientist who took the painting with him to the us in 1949, leaving the art world unaware the piece even existed. it was then rediscovered following his death in august last year. that's it. back to victoria. this is cctv footage

of 41—year—old tony collins, a mental health patient, on the day he took his own life. he wheeled himself out of his ward, past a nurses‘ station, out of hospital and to a multistorey block of flats. mr collins was missing for two and a half hours before medics noticed he'd disappeared. he had a long history of depression, anxiety and paranoia and had tried to take his own life five times before his death. despite that, at one point mr collins and his dad were physically locked out of a unit by a ward manager and told, "you'd be better off outside". his family say there were repeated failings by medical professionals including the decision to discharge him. two nhs trusts — bedford and east london — have paid the family a five figure sum in damages,

both denying liability. i have been speaking to their solicitor who helped the family bring the claim and mr collins‘ sister kelly and his parents, mick and beryl, in an exclusive interview, and i asked beryl how ill tony had been. on and off, used to run hot and cold. you could be talking to him on the phone, we could visit him and he would be talking and he would be bright as 9p and the next thing you know he was down, gone. and you knew by the look on his face. it was a look that you will never forget. in the last time i saw will never forget. in the last time isaw him, i will never forget. in the last time i saw him, i got that look and i turned to him at the hospital bed andi turned to him at the hospital bed and i said, stay calm i won‘t be long, you‘re coming home. that was the last time i saw him. i'm so sorry. he had had a number of years

where he had suffered depression and anxiety. they said he had a personality disorder but we didn‘t find none of this out until after the death. i want to ask you what happened on the day your son died. we knew that he was missing from the hospital and on the day he died, we was continually phoning the hospital. are you all right? you'll be all right. pictures in my head. we continually phoned the hospital and we said, have you found tony? the reply was, can't talk to you, can't talk to you. i was somebody tell me something. we can't, someone

will be in touch. we rang and rang and eventually someone said, i'm sorry, and eventually someone said, i'm sorry, we and eventually someone said, i'm sorry, we can't talk to you you'll have somebody phone you up. i went, 0k, and a while later the phone went and they said, hello, mr collins, we can't say nothing on the phone but you'll be getting a call from the police. at that exact moment, a police. at that exact moment, a police car was coming round. they came into our house and they just said, i'm very sorry but we have just found your son. deceased. isaid, thank have just found your son. deceased. i said, thank christ, where is he? and they went, terribly sorry... and how it had your brother got out of the hospital? he was being looked after? we did tell them he needs to be ina after? we did tell them he needs to be in a secure unit, we knew he was suicidal and we wanted him to be in a secure suicidal and we wanted him to be in

a secure unit. some hospitals there isa a secure unit. some hospitals there is a security key and code, there wasn't even that. his bed was near the exit. and what he had done on the exit. and what he had done on the day he died was he wheeled past nurses, out of the ward. early in the morning. to a block of flats behind bedford hospital and he took his own life. did anyone notice he was missing? not for at least two and a half hours, and then they called the police. he was in a wheelchair because he had previously tried to take his own life a month before so he was in a wheelchair, he had a fractured back and two broken ankles and he just wheeled himself out and said goodbye. that is all we know, he said goodbye and wheeled himself out past the nurse station near the exit come out the doors and thatis near the exit come out the doors and that is all we knew. we were praying

that is all we knew. we were praying that he had gone to a friend's, that is what we thought. overnight, we woke up the next morning and they still hadn't found him. beryl, what you think about the fact he was able to leave the hospital and take his own life? i begged them. i begged. someone rang me and said they were getting him a safe house, six beds. a couple of days went by and i said to mick that i would ring because we don‘t know where he is, if he has gone. it was a place in shefford. i phoned him and the same man spoke to me and said it‘s not suitable. i asked why and he said it was because it was upstairs and he can‘t walk. i said put him downstairs in the downstairs upstairs. if not, i will pay for a stair lift and you can keep it when he is better and back with us. and that was it. never

heard no more. the fact that he was able to leave the hospital, the ward where he was being treated, and take his own life, what you think about that, mick? absolutely... the only words i can use is absolutely shocked, that knowing that he had tried to do things in the past, to my way of thinking, i think that somebody should have said, do not your eye —— do not take your eyes off him because he is liable. he was also found at one stage upstairs in the hospital. and we believe that is what he was looking for, to try it again. and yet theyjust let him wonder. i have been to the building andl wonder. i have been to the building and i have been all the way to the window and opened a window. there is

fio window and opened a window. there is no way, no way he done that just off chance. he has been there before. what i'm saying is a must have left that hospital before, this was not a one—off. that hospital before, this was not a one-off. there is cctv footage which i know you sometimes watch, beryl, of tony when he managed to get out of tony when he managed to get out of bedford hospital and was going to the block of flats next door. why do you look at it sometimes? because i can see him alive. and he was so calm. and i found can see him alive. and he was so calm. and ifound out since, when someone calm. and ifound out since, when someone is going to do this, it is not the day they do it, it‘s the day before. he planned it in his head. and we were going to see him the following tuesday. i want to take oui’ following tuesday. i want to take our audience back a little bit because there was a build—up to

this. you have already mentioned a month earlier tony tried to take his own life. an hour after a consultant had told him on the phone he had been discharged from their care. he did end up back in hospital because it attempted to take his own life, he broke both his feet and the medical notes show he was experiencing anxiety, paranoia, panic attacks and chest pains. and he broke his back. and yet, three weeks later, he was discharged and despite it also be noted he was not taking some of his medication. what you think about what you would see 110w you think about what you would see now is a failing? because they discharged him when he shouldn‘t have been? no way. he should have beenin have been? no way. he should have been ina have been? no way. he should have been in a secured unit from the off. the problem lies in the hospital itself, where the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. they don‘t talk.

know what the right hand is doing. they don't talk. you have four different commodities, the nurses, the matron, the consultant, the psychiatrists. they all do their paperwork and take it separately. it is like sitting here and all take what we take and what we are trying to fight for, which we think is being passed, isjust one man which 110w being passed, isjust one man which now i think has been passed, a consultant should be in charge of everybody and you should all recorded on a computer. when tony, it wasn't like that. they all had their own feelings. the psychiatrists saw tony very peaceful and calm. as we said to them, he is pulling the wool over your eyes. because he knows that if he acts normal and acts up, you will put him away, which he doesn't want. it was the best thing for him but he didn't wa nt the best thing for him but he didn't want it. but when that psychiatrist

left, he carried on. why didn't the nurse or whoever talk to each other, or talk to each other and find out? i want to ask you about the occasion, about a month or so before tony died, when you were physically locked out of a particular ward by the ward manager. and told that, "you would be better off outside." tell us what happened. tony was put on leave, a weekend's leave... home? sent home for a couple of days so i we nt sent home for a couple of days so i went to pick him up and he was in a real mess opened dressing gown hanging down, he was hanging over, dribbling. isaid hanging down, he was hanging over, dribbling. i said to him, come on, let's go. i don't want to leave, i don't want to go out there. you'll

be ok when you get outside. it went on for a while and in the end she said, go and get dressed. i said, come on, will get in the car and get something. anyhow... in the end she basically told him, you have got to go, it has been arranged and you're going. we went out, it was quite a long walk to get to the main doors and before we got to them, we got to the main doors and we let ourselves out and as we got out he hits the floor. he is banging his head on the floor, screaming, crying. and a young lady came up to me, she ran up to me... young lady came up to me, she ran up tome...a young lady came up to me, she ran up to me... a medic. she said, what the hell is going on. i said i have taken him out of there and here he is. she said he is having a total nervous breakdown. why have you got

it out here ? nervous breakdown. why have you got it out here? i said because they have given him leave and she said he is completely gone! i went, sorry, who are you? she went, i used to be in here and i'm now at next door and i'm on the psychiatric part of it because i have been there and i know what it does. you took him back in and that is when the ward manager... she said, get him and taken back in there and don't take no for an answer, just leave him there and walk away. so we went back. i got to the doors and banged on the doors and she says, now what you want. i saidi and she says, now what you want. i said i can't take him home like this. she said he will be ok. no, no, no, i have been told not to take fio no, no, i have been told not to take no foran no, no, i have been told not to take no for an answer. no, no, i have been told not to take 110 for an answer. we no, no, i have been told not to take no for an answer. we walked in the doors and she put her arms out like that and said no, he is going to. she said he'll be ok, i'm telling you when outside. is not. we started arguing and she ushered us out of the door and shut the door and locked it. and i'm calling her, i

banged on the door. she turned her back and walked away, overdo a desk and that like that as though she was writing i did not turn round and i ke pt writing i did not turn round and i kept banging and banging. i said we have been locked out. what you think about that? absolutely disgusting. it is the anger that comes out. about that? absolutely disgusting. it is the anger that comes outm is like we have lived through a horror movie. he went out against my will, against his will and within a couple of days later, he has tried to do it again. you are the solicitor who has helped bring a claim against the trusts involved, they have paid out a sum of money. a five figure sum sounds like a lot but it‘s not. i know you don‘t want to reveal the amount but it‘s not a lot of money. they have denied liability. what were the failings? we have heard some of them but in terms of the failings from both trusts, what were they? it starts as

basic as this was a man with depression, undiagnosed potential of that mental health issues, desperately seeking help. he was initially in the ward where they we re initially in the ward where they were locked out. he should never have been discharged in that state in the first place and to make him go on home leave in that state is not acceptable. to then not let them back in, physically shut them out when he is clearly having a crisis again isa when he is clearly having a crisis again is a clear feeling. fast forward sadly from that, he then tried to take his own life and was admitted to bedford hospital with the broken feet and the injuries to the broken feet and the injuries to the back. you have a man who is recorded as being highly suicidal increasing anxiety, increasing paranoia. he is there because of an attempt to take his own life and they allow him to wield himself out

of the hospital. that make it to wheel himself. he was in hospital for about a month and it was recorded over and over again in the notes by nurses, orthopaedic doctors, that his symptoms were getting worse. he was incredibly paranoid. you have classic symptoms of someone who is mentally unwell and despite the plan being that the psychiatric liaison team were meant to review him daily, it did not happen. beryl has explained she wa nted happen. beryl has explained she wanted him to be in a secure unit but there was not a place. that would have been a better way to treat him and support him? absolutely. and we would have been at home knowing when we go there that he will be there. absolutely. are you satisfied with this small pay—out and denial of liability from the hospital trusts involved ? pay—out and denial of liability from the hospital trusts involved? we

wa nt the hospital trusts involved? we want to do more in the future. i know they are implementing changes in the system because, as we said, they was not communicating amongst themselves, the staff. and apparently because of our inquest that was quite lengthy and in depth, they are implementing changes. because the coronet went through the failings. yes, she listed them out —— the coroner. as a family, we want to help other people. we don't want them to go through this. it‘s not fair. how are you coping without tony? she ain't. missing her brother. but that is your motivation for speaking out? in actual fact, i said the first time i met you, it wasn‘t about money, i don‘t want money, i want people to feel safe

and they can go somewhere and get the help. thank you very much, all of you, for talking to us. i know it has been really difficult, we can see that so we are really grateful and let‘s hope it changes things. let‘s hope. and let‘s hope it changes things. let's hope. let's hope this programme can help things. we will do our best. we have to make the statements from the nhs trusts in bath an east london nhs foundation trust told us, "we extend our sincere condolences at domestic and family. the trust undertook an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the events that led up to mr cullen is taking his life in 2018. we have learned from this and strive to improve practices and services into the future." the other trust said, "we send our deepest condolences and unreserved apology to the family are mr collins. as an nhs trust we take pride in delivering excellent patient care and evidencing learning

when required. our continued thoughts are with the family during this difficult time. we have made a number of changes to processes and procedures in the light of this case to ensure this incident will never be repeated." an e—mail from amanda who tells us, my husband was discharged after an attempt on his life, then readmitted, then allowed out, then he took his own life. staff vote at the time that he was at the most severe risk of suicide and he had a history of depression. my and he had a history of depression. my life is destroyed. if you want to get in touch with us, you can e—mail us. and our actionline website is bbc.co.uk/actionline. if you need help, there are loads of organisations listed there who you can contact. airport checks are being set up in the uk to help prevent the spread of a new type of virus that has killed

nine people in china and infected more than 400. travellers from wuhan, the area at the centre of the outbreak of this new form of coronavirus, will be separated from other passengers on arrival at heathrow as a precautionary measure. chinese authorities have advised against travel to and from wuhan, it isa it is a city of 11 million people. the outbreak of coronavirus has now spread to several places in china including the capital beijing and shanghai. we will talk to our health editor in a moment to see if we should be a lump at first, stephen mcdonell is our correspondence there. —— if we should be alarmed. tell us about this virus firstly. the reason people are especially worried about this virus is that, as you can see behind me, the chinese new year means that hundreds of millions of people are on the move. they are

crisscrossing china and flying out overseas. attitudes here over the last 48 hours had completely changed to towards this sickness because of the mass migration. two days ago we found it difficult to speak to a traveller who was that concerned. now you have people lining up to bite and face masks, they are cancelling trips or having them cancelled for them to predict for example, north korea has announced that all tour groups coming into the neighbouring country have been cancelled for the lunar new year. in wuhan, tourgroups cancelled for the lunar new year. in wuhan, tour groups have been cancelled in terms of leaving the city where the sickness first started, or the outbreak was detected. and of course people will be worried when you have an announcement like today when officials say they are worried about the virus mutating and becoming potentially more contagious. one of

the reasons people are concerned about the travel patterns is not only obviously the numbers but if you compare the travel numbers now to 2002, for example, when we had the sars to 2002, for example, when we had the sa rs outbreak to 2002, for example, when we had the sars outbreak when 600 people died, comparing that, just in the province where this virus started, there are now twice as many train journeys. in terms of people leaving to china, there are six times as many passengers boarding flights. scientists are really worried about the potential for that to quickly spread, this virus they are trying to understand which causes pneumonia and has killed people and for that reason also, the world health organization is meeting in the coming hours to decide whether or not to declare this as a global emergency. thank you. we can talk to our health editor, hugh pym. planes being monitored at heathrow coming

from china but why? this is very much a precautionary measure given sources are stressing that with australia and the us already doing it with slightly tighter restrictions upon that what‘ll happen is three flights a week come in from happen is three flights a week come infrom wuhan happen is three flights a week come in from wuhan to heathrow and there will be public health officials at the terminal taking details from people who have arrived so that, if they develop symptoms, they have been given a leaflet to take away and they can ring up health officials who will follow it up. equally, airport crews arriving had been briefed to watch out for people who look particularly sick and passed that on to health officials. it is fairly low key as a response and indicative of the fact that the international health community is very much on close watch here. but not wanting to give any impression that the sudden it is going to spread around europe. and the symptoms are flu—like symptoms and thatis symptoms are flu—like symptoms and that is how it is spread, by people coughing and sneezing? the exact mode of transmission they are not

sure about, whether it is coughing or sneezing or you need to touch as somebody but it is respiratory, leading to pneumonia. that been nine deaths in china so the death rate is relatively low product they could be elderly people other conditions. i think the whole thing needs a bit of perspective but the world health organization is meeting as we had to decide whether to elevate it to a global health emergency status which puts all health systems on full alert. they might will not do that on this occasion but they are watching it closely. we will find out if they do that later. thank you. before 11. the man who brought us alan partidge and the thick of it tells us why he‘s turned his mischievous eye to the dickens classic, david copperfield. do get in touch with us through the morning.

neglect and serious failures in britain‘s prisons are a "national scandal" resulting in deaths which could be prevented according to a report out today. the charity which investigates deaths in publicly run facilities like prisons has found repeated failures in health care, communcation systems, emergency responses and medication. they‘ve analysed findings from 61 prison inquests in england and wales in 2018 and 2019 and criticise the government for not taking action on official recommendations. deaths in prisons have surged in recent years and are almost double what they were ten years ago. let‘s talk now to donna and mark saunders, the parents of dean saunders who took his own life in chelmsford prison. here he is pictured with his little son teddy.

and sandra landsberg, whose sister annabella died at hmp peterborough following severe dehydration and organ failure. also with us is deborah coles, director of the charity inquest, gethinjones ,who spent years in and out of prison, and now runs an organisation working with offenders. and mark fairhurst. a prison officer working at hmp liverpool and chair of the poa union. he‘s been a prison officerfor 28 years. welcome. thank you for coming on the programme. i‘d like to start with you both, if i may. why was dean in chelmsford jail? he was basically put in there as a place of safety because he had had a paranoid episode and they did not have a bed for him on the mental health ward. so he should never have been in jail? no. what happened? he went in there ina jail? no. what happened? he went in there in a high state of paranoia. he tried to take his own life at his

home address, so he was mentally assessed. because they couldn't find him a place, they basically use the prison as a holding day, until after christmas but, unfortunately, while he was in there over the christmas period, they reduced the constant watch which he should have been on. the review at the time to take off was held with no medical qualified personnel to take that assessment... mac at a prison officer made the decision? it's a multi disciplined review. prison staff, medical staff, head of health care. the head of health care was there but had no medical training to make this decision and later on in the inquest it came out that it was a money—saving operation. it came out that it was a money-saving operation. what you think about that? its false economy,

disgusting. it didn‘t save them any money because they had to pay out after his death. in that time when he wasn‘t being watched, constantly, he wasn‘t being watched, constantly, he took his own life? there were so many opportunities and failings where these opportunities arose and, you know, from our inquest we had 21 listings to prevent further deaths, and from the ppo report we had so many recommendations for the prison. you are led to believe this is kind of like a one off thing but i researched it myself, i went back ten years of reports, and there are clear patterns of same recommendations coming up again and again and you think if they changed

it when there were deaths before, may be our son would be here now. when did your son die? the 4th of january 2016. december, 2019, nearly four years later... for days and for days afterwards, we received an apology supposedly from the ministry ofjustice, but actually from the prison. the governor. ofjustice, but actually from the prison. the governorlj ofjustice, but actually from the prison. the governor. i think you are comfortable with reading a little bit of it to our audience. dear mrs saunders, i am writing to you as the governor of hmp chelmsford to offer you my sincere apologies on the death of your son dean. at this present on the 4th of january 2016 every death in custody deeply affects families and is a tragedy and affect other prisoners and improving safety and reducing self—inflicted deaths is a key

priority for hmp. i acknowledged there was a breach of article two in this case, and you have suffered grief and distress as a result of this for which the ministry of justice apologises. how do you take that apology? for years and four days for that? if they were sorry they would have made more improvements than they have. and other people wouldn‘t still be dying. we heard all the way through, lessons will be learned, well, these lessons will be learned, well, these lessons are clearly not learned. you look at the figures, the deaths are still high. the year dean died it was the record highest ever and they've only dropped a bit. i'm going to bring in if i may, donna, thank you for reading that to our audience, our other gas and talk to sandra. welcome to the programme. thank you for coming on. i want you

to talk to us about your sister annabella because she died injail after being restrained and then left ina after being restrained and then left in a cell for 20 when without being checked on. why wasn‘t she checked on? yes, she was left around 630. she was restrained with five officers. until 230 in the afternoon the next day one of the nurses poured water on her and kicked her legs and told her she was feckless and needed to get up. my sister was fighting for her life. they didn‘t ta ke fighting for her life. they didn‘t take her seriously. after restraining a person, you should

check them if they are ok for injuries and that never took place. she died of dehydration and organ failure. their were a long list of recommendations, i think, from your sisters inquest. have any been implemented? is enough being done to make sure this doesn‘t happen, these preve nta ble make sure this doesn‘t happen, these preventable deaths don‘t happen in the future? we are not sure if they are being done or not, because it‘s the same recommendations which have been happening in the past and nothing has changed so far because the number of deaths are so high and they have not been following the procedures and policies in management. i'm going to read the statement from the prisons minister, lucy fraser. let me put this to you, deborah coles, which says one of the most difficult thing to do here in my role is another person is taking their own life while in jail.

my role is another person is taking their own life while injail. i can‘t begin to imagine how families must feel when they get the news. far too many prisoners are self harming and it‘s one of the reasons we introduced the key worker scheme in 2018, supported by the recruitment of 4400 extra prison officers so that every offender can get dedicated support and have someone to talk to. we‘ve also given over 25,000 staff better training to spot and prevent self—harm and are investing an extra almost 3 billion to modernise prisons, combat drug use and improve the environment in which offenders can live. true? that‘s happening? which offenders can live. true? that's happening? i'm sorry but these are hollow words and i think we've heard very clearly from families the added trauma of families the added trauma of families going through what are really distressing intrusive processes in the hope that change will happen and what really concerns me and as evidence in our report, is that time and time again, we see the

same failings being repeated and we are told that action will be taken and yet, consistently, recommendations from coroners inquests, ombudsmen investigations, and the prison inspectorate, are being systematically ignored.“ and the prison inspectorate, are being systematically ignored. if you could implement three changes today, to try to prevent these kinds of deaths, what would they be? my first one would be to have a proper conversation about sentencing policy. and ending the unnecessary imprisonment of people who would be better looked after in the community. like dean. absolutely not. there's far too many people in prison who should not be there. we need to resource services in the community because, as our report shows, so many people who end up in prison have been failed by statutory services, mental health addictions, nowhere to live, so that's the first

thing. the second thing is they should be a mandatory requirement to act on the recommendations that are made because these are potentially life—saving and there is nobody within the prison service who was charged with actually monitoring and auditing what actually happens. they are paying those people to do those findings and then they are not doing anything with it. what‘s the point? it's anything with it. what‘s the point? it‘s a waste of money. anything with it. what‘s the point? it's a waste of money. they are just sitting in an intro somewhere. let me bring in mark, prison officerfor 28 years. chair of the poa union and gethinjones is with us, who spent eight years i think inside for various offences. tell us about this from your point of view and your officers point of view. all i've heard is harrowing in my heart does go out to as families that you suffered this. we are underfunded, under resourced, we don‘t get adequate training, and let‘s be

honest, there are people in prison with complex mental health needs, who need to be in secure units in the community. that‘s a government issue thing, they need to get their hands in their pocket and fund the services. so when the prisons minister says we‘ve got more prison officers being trained, recruiting more, more prison officers being trained to spot and prevent self—harm, more money going into modernising prisons, you say what?|j say i've been on the job 28 years andl say i've been on the job 28 years and i receive no mental health training whatsoever and all of that is on offer to our members is a three hour mental health awareness course. now, if you are serious about training us to do people with complex needs, why can't we shadow people in secure mental health units for a couple of months, spot the signs, spot the symptoms, and get methods to deal with people who are the most vulnerable in our care? that is all you get, you and your colleagues, three hour mental health

awareness course? if you are lucky because training is not a priority in the prison service. it's not even compulsory. it's not compulsory, it's as and when. gethin, you have been inside. what‘s it like from your point of view? for me, to give it context, prison became my life, so it context, prison became my life, soi it context, prison became my life, so i was born into the system, so i came to the care system, and it came up came to the care system, and it came up negative, my behaviour, i had my first custodial at 14, my second at 15, speights i spent eight years of my life in and out of prison and also developed a dependency on heroin, so for me, prison was my home. that's what it was for me. heroin, so for me, prison was my home. that's what it was for mem was the right place for you. 18 convictions. yes, 56 offences and 18 convictions. yes, 56 offences and 18 convictions which were the result of me acting out in my behaviours

through to the trauma i had experienced growing up as a child not getting myself support i needed to develop as a human being. what a lot of the stuff i advocate for todayis lot of the stuff i advocate for today is what we are doing is we are locking up the most vulnerable people in society and i've seen this shift and i've been in the system, and back of the 80s and 90s i would say 80% of the prison population where what i call career criminals and only 20% of the mental health, misuse of alcohol and substance issue, and today i would say 80% of the prison system is substance, mental health issue and alcohol issue, and what it is is the prison syste m issue, and what it is is the prison system isn't fully equipped to deal with that level of need. right, what is certainly popular with some voters in this country are policies that sound like tougher prison sentences, longer prison sentences, building more prisons, more prison places. what is less popular broadly

speaking, i know it‘s slightly more nuanced like that, is looking after people in the community, rehabilitation of such.|j people in the community, rehabilitation of such. i think what they should do is look outside the prison walls. invest outside before people get inside. that's where it is needed. they need to help out there and they are not getting the support they need. unfortunately, they find themselves on the wrong side of the law, end up in prison, totally the wrong environment. mental health shouldn‘t be put into prison as a place of safety, they should be put in hospitals. where they can get treatment. the fact you even have to say that out loud is unbelievable. i know. the challenges we are talking about a government here, using more prisons, having longer sentences, and i think one of the things we need to do is firstly the things we need to do is firstly the human stories of those who are dying should be read by all government ministers, so they understand the context in which people are ending up in the system,

but also in terms of public safety, we know that prisons don't work because people come out and then there's the revolving door of coming back in. some people would argue the reason prison doesn‘t work is because the sentences aren‘t long enough. i heard a really good governor one time and who said to me if someone goes to prison once or twice they have to take responsibility for the behaviour, if they come back to prison five, six, seven times, as a system, we need to look at what we are doing wrong. absolutely, but we are moving on now toa absolutely, but we are moving on now to a conversation about whether it‘s right for people to be in prison and everybody watching, politicians would agree, somebody with a mental health problem should not be put in a prison in the meantime because there is no bed available in a secure unit or at a hospital. everyone can agree with that. but that's the reality of what's happening about the issue we need to deal with. halfway happening about the issue we need to dealwith. halfway needs happening about the issue we need to deal with. halfway needs to be

changed. one thing i always say is we don't give out life sentences but for our son, we don't give out life sentences but for ourson, and we don't give out life sentences but for our son, and many, many others, that's exactly what they got.|j for our son, and many, many others, that's exactly what they got. i want to bring in... we will have to cope with what is done to us by the courts. it would complex mental health needs. and i agree with what you have said before, a cost saving exercise, because the public need to be aware that quite often one prison officer will be left on a wing with over 100 prisoners. there could be 12 people who need observations, some of those are on five observations an hour, and what i have said today... just so we can learn more, that means what? a prison officer going to check on them? five times an hour. through them? five times an hour. through the door? going on? interaction. if they are on lock—up, there will speak to the prisoner to the door to make sure they are all i could imagine being on a wing on your own especially at night, when the staffing levels a re especially at night, when the staffing levels are depleted, and

having to deal with one prisoner in distress, being at that door for one hour and you got 11 other people on five observations an hour, who need to be checked, what i‘m saying is if you are on five observations or more an hour that‘s a constant watch, it should be one—to—one supervision, so we know 20 47, that prisoner is catered for. i'm going to leave it there and read the messages. i‘ve just left jail after ten years, there and read the messages. i‘ve just leftjail after ten years, i self harmed all the way through. nothing has changed. the prisons have no money. the key worker scheme is just have no money. the key worker scheme isjust a have no money. the key worker scheme is just a rebrand have no money. the key worker scheme isjust a rebrand of have no money. the key worker scheme is just a rebrand of old have no money. the key worker scheme isjust a rebrand of old measures. jason says if we decided what prisons are for in this country these things might not happen. punishment or rehabilitation? thank you all of you for coming on the programme. i appreciate your time, thank you. and our actionline website is bbc.co.uk/actionline. if you need help there are loads of organisations listed there who you can contact. this friday sees the cinema release of a ground—breaking version of the charles dicken‘s classic,

david copperfield. starring dev patel in the lead role, the personal history of david copperfield is charming, funny, and completely colour—blind in its casting. and the man behind it all is armando iannucci. the writer and director is most famous for his comedy writing, from alan partridge, the thick of it, and veep a long—running satire all about washington politics. here‘s a clip from his latest film. i apologise for my rudeness. oh, he's apologising, jip. shall we forgive him? he says we shall. thank you,jip. think nothing of it, sir. speaks very well. it was actually me. i like to pretend he speaks. some people think it idiotic. oh no, i do it myself, all the time. don‘t i, mr... ..appletree? yes. i—i‘m david copperfield. are you still being the tree?

no. it is funny. armando told us why he was inspired to adapt this particular charles dickens story. it‘s actually, in many ways, true to the book. when i reread the book about eight, nine years ago, i was impressed by how modern and fresh and original... it‘s a funny, funny book. i think, yeah, we do have this image of dickens as being a fusty, dark victorian novelist who writes about mud and fog and street urchins and depression. and yes, there is that. and, you know, there are themes in the film that touch on that. but he‘s also very, very funny. he was really — by the age of 21, 22, he was, like, the most famous writer in the world. and he was famous for his funny comedy, really. and he was like the precursor to charlie chaplin, in a way in how internationalfame was. and ijust remember reading the book and just thinking a lot of the themes... you know, the whole book is really about status anxiety — david growing up, not quite knowing

whether he fits in, whether... who he really is. do you think there are parallels with our lives now in 2020? absolutely. it‘s funny. the younger audiences really seem to be connecting with the film because they say... it‘s all about david worrying about the friends he‘s made — are they the right friends? what will they say when they find out that, as a child, i worked in a factory? and it‘s all that, you know, do they know about me? and has he.... has he fallen in love with the right person? what does she think of me? have i made the right decision? there‘s this constant anxiety. and he only really resolves it at the end by deciding to write it down, to become a writer. and you wanted dev patel... yes. ..as david copperfield, i think after you saw him in lion. yes. and you have been deliberately colourblind in your casting. and i think you did have a conversation with dev patel about whether you should say in the script that he had an indian dad, but decided against it. the only person i could think of to play david was dev. he sort of inhabits the spirit of david so perfectly, because dev, i‘ve seen in skins playing this sort

of gawky, embarrassed teenager, which — there‘s elements of that there — and then in lion, be very strong and charismatic and focused. and david goes from one to the other. and dev... whoever plays david has to hold the film together because he‘s in every scene for two hours and dev does it perfectly. if he‘d said no, i‘m not sure i would have made the film, really, because i could see him as david. once that‘s done, you then say, ok, so... does he have an indian father? does he... and i thought, no, ijust want to choose people — like i‘ve chosen dev — who, for me, just inhabits the spirit of the character, the best person to play that part. and it happens in theatre all the time. for some reason, film, drama on television, it‘s all literal and i just think i want something that explores more the joy and variety that‘s in the book. and now you‘ve done that, do you think that will become the norm in films? because i‘ve read interviews with british actors — non—white british actors — who‘ve said, "i‘ll never get a part

in a costume drama in this country because all the roles are white so i‘m going to have to go to america to get decent roles." yes. and i hope that change people‘s minds about how they cast films. i‘m not saying this is prescriptive and how every programme should be made, every film should be made. but ijust think it‘s... there is such a lot of talent there. i mean, dev himself said, normally in a film like this he‘d be carrying the tea tray and standing at the back. and thatjust seems, for a man of his talent and ability — who should be front and centre of the screen — that‘s just tragic to think that that‘s a possibility. how do you respond, then, to other directors and writers like, for example, julian fellowes, who says, when something is set in a different historical period, you cannot make it untruthful? well, first of all, this is a work of fiction — as is downton abbey. i can make it any way i like. victoria laughs. ifjulian fellowes doesn‘t like the idea, he doesn‘t have to come and watch the film. you know, there are plenty other adaptations. yeah. do you think charles dickens would be on twitter if he were alive now? armando laughs.

i mean, he was a big social influence. and the idea of restricting him to whatever it is — 240 characters — is kind of interesting, in that he is so expansive a writer. i think he‘d be on instagram. he‘d be on instagram, yeah. he‘d blog — he‘d definitely blog. he‘d definitely blog. he‘d be on question time regularly. he‘d be on question time. and, you know, we forget he wrote his novels as serials — he serialized them. they were issued in monthly and weekly installments. very often when he was writing, he didn‘t know what was going to happen next. he‘d always end on a cliffhanger and he‘d then work out the plot — he‘d go on these long walks to work out the plot for next week‘s installment. so he‘d definitely be writing the equivalent of an eastenders or... he‘d probably write his own sunday evening serial. it‘s a very british film. it‘s a very multicultural film. i wanted to ask you, is there anything about this film that is a riposte to brexit from your point of view? armando laughs. well, only in that, you know... i think there‘s a danger that we see britain — because of what‘s been happening recently — we see britain as an enclosed, inward—looking defence of an exclusive country. and i‘ve never seen that.

i think britain is actually an outward—going, generous, kind, creative and talented country. and i think we mustn‘t lose sight of that. yeah. this film is tapping in on the kind of britain i see. did you by any chance watch question time last week with laurence fox? no, i‘ve been catching up. i‘ve been in edit for... i know what‘s going on. yes. imean, he... he also... he agreed with you on how he sees the nature of our country. we‘re the most tolerant, lovely country. yeah. he also described an audience member who called him a white privileged male as racist. and he‘s said in a follow—up interview, "identity politics is extremely racist, as well." i wondered what you thought of that. well, i... i mean, i‘m very much against labels, really, which is why, as i said, i just cast people for...for the spirit that they have rather than their skin tone or their, you know, what school they went from. you know, i‘m really not one

who wants to buy into the whole business of racial identity and class identity as weapons — i much prefer to kind of move on and just discuss who the person is, really. yeah. do you think it‘s a bad time to be a privileged white male? armando laughs. well, i refer you to the answer i‘ve just given, in that... i don‘t really mind who you are or where you‘re from. have you accepted brexit now? you wanted a people‘s vote. yes. absolutely. and i think it‘s important that, you know, those who supported remain — we lost. and, actually, it‘s now about making sure that britain is a fantastic place, rather than sitting at the sidelines hoping that this venture fails. i think we‘ve actually got to be positive. and, as i say, you know, the acting talent here, the creativity we have in this country, the bbc. everything — we have to... we have to cheer as something that‘s so important to what this country is.

obviously, you‘ve created many programmes at the bbc. you will know that the director—general is standing down in the summer. some people see this as a moment of threat, potentially, for the licence fee model, but do you think maybe that does have to change? well, i mean, iargued in the mactaggart lecture four years ago that the bbc mustn‘t be shy about making money internationally. it‘s such a strong name, that if it offered a subscription service internationally where you could — say, for $5 a month — buy into every past bbc programme, the way netflix operates and so on — i think that‘s good. i think what we mustn‘t do is try and price people out here from seeing bbc programmes. i think we have to make it as free as we can, but not feel afraid to make money elsewhere from the quality. and also go in partnerships with amazon, with netflix, with hbo, who have the money. yeah. obviously you are famous for your political writing. politics today in this country —

is it ripe for satire, or is it beyond satire? well, i personally find it‘s changing so much that if you want to do some long form — permanent... a response to what‘s going on, it would instantly be out of date within two weeks. really? the rules are changing all the time. and also, satire — for want of a better name — relies on there being a set of conventions. so then when people depart from those conventions, you can point out how they‘ve departed. but if there are no longer conventions... you know, if donald trump says, "i can go out, shoot someone in the face and still get elected." if a party can call itself factcheckuk because itjust wants to, then...then there are no rules. there are no rules. i think the people who are more effective are the ones who act like journalists, likejohn oliver, who has, like, a whole research team, you know. because the politicians are becoming their own entertainers. and boris johnson delivers a joke with every speech. trump is a salesperson — he‘s interested in ratings. so i think it‘s... i think the comedians

who are operating like investigative journalists are actually... and are looking forensically at what‘s happening on a weekly basis — are the ones who are having more impact than, say, me doing a kind of drama based on the situation. will you go back to political comedy or not, do you think? oh, yes. imean... yes. i mean, it depends what the form is. i‘m just about to do a sci—fi series on hbo that‘s coming out that‘s set 40 in the future, you know. this is avenue 5. but it‘s sort of looking at today, really. 0k. all sci—fi is looking at today, really. well, thank you very much forjoining us. pleasure. and good luck with the personal life of david copperfield. it is out on general release on the 24th, i think. yes. thank you. bbc newsroom live is coming up next. have a good day.

hello, good morning. a decent start for the favoured few but that the exception to essentially a dry day for most parts of the british isles. still really rather cloudy, more cloud perhaps than we saw across southern britain during the course of yesterday and for that you have to thank the high pressure drifting further towards the atlantic, so there is a moist flow across the northern and eastern flanks which is dragged to the cloud into central and southern parts of the british isles. it always was there over the past couple of days across the north and west of scotland particularly where it‘s given us the odd piece of rain. sunshine this afternoon, eastern side of the pennines on the grampians, and temperatures 9—12. during the evening and overnight, not a great deal changes for the cloud thick enough for the odd spot of light rain and drizzle, never amounting to very much at all, but the mist and fog will return but not necessarily in the same places as was the case this morning, so bear that one in mind if you are up

early. temperatures, 4—7. see you later. good morning. welcome to bbc newsroom live. the uk is to monitorflights. chinese authorities have admitted the country is now at the "most critical stage" of the virus. new bbc analysis finds the cost of poor mental health in the workplace

has increased dramatically in the last two years. and the duchess of cambridge is in cardiff helping to launch what has been described as