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for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. it is 75 years since allied troops entered the nazi death camp at auschwitz. the very word auschwitz still stirs a unique level of horror. it was the place where hitler's genocide of european jewry was industrialised with evil precision. mindu hornick is one of the remaining auschwitz survivors. now 90 years old, she continues to speak of the past in the hope that we will learn from her experience. that is her challenge to us — to listen and to draw the right lessons.

mindu hornick, welcome to hardtalk. i want to begin by asking you how you feel about this moment, where there is so much sombre reflection and ceremonial marking the 75th anniversary of the liberation of auschwitz. for you, as a survivor, how do you feel? for me, as a survivor, very important. memorials, school events, and commemorations are school events, and commemorations a re really school events, and commemorations are really important to me, because

my fear is always that, with the passage of time, if we don't remember, we don't commemorate, and we do not teach children, that the memory of the 20th century, which was horrific, would erode, and would disappear with the passage of time. let's make it personal. yes. over the 75 years, have your own memories in any way faded, or not at all? well, have they faded? for instance, for over a0 yea rs well, have they faded? for instance, for over a0 years i could not speak about it. really? yes, i could not speak about the holocaust. you mean you didn't want to? yes and we couldn't, it was too difficult? there are several reasons. first of all, to begin with, i think in the first ten years, people didn't want

to know. the media didn't want to know, the publishers, there were books published in yiddish and polish and russian, and they weren't interested to do translations. and the second reason is, i think when you are traumatised from a place such as auschwitz, you need a healing time in between, before you could speak. some people took less time, and some people took more. but because of my life, how things worked out, it took me perhaps longer than some other ones. and we are going to get to that period, when you felt able to speak of your experience. but let us do it chronologically. let's take you back to your girlhood, being raised in a

rural environment in slovakia, what is now slovakia. yes, yes. close to prague, in fact. yes, yes. it was. you are 12 years old. nearly 13, 13 yea rs of you are 12 years old. nearly 13, 13 years of age. and the nazis, of course, were occupying your place of... course, were occupying your place of. . . they course, were occupying your place of... they were, yes. of residence. they rounded up thejews, and as i understand it, in the end, your father was already taken, but in the end, your mother, your siblings and you were put on a transport, a train. we were put... first of all, we we re train. we were put... first of all, we were taken in lorries to a ghetto. and, as you know what these ghettos were, it was they would take... they were to section off pa rt take... they were to section off part of the city, and we would... we had curfew, we couldn't allow... we

won't allowed to go out there. and what i remember, we... it was again a part of slovakia, we were in a hayloft for some weeks. and then suddenly they asked us to pack our luggage and took us down to the railway station and put us all into cattle wagons. i mean, at no point did we know where we were going or what was happening. because communication was not as we have it now. i mean, 75 years later, we didn't have mobiles. of course. we didn't have mobiles. of course. we didn't have mobiles. of course. we didn't have facebook, or anything. so really our communication was nothing, zero. and you were cramped, huge numbers crammed into these railway wagons. 70 of us were in those wagons, and they put a bucket

in the middle, and there were mothers and children. there were no men. you arrived on the platform at the dreadful auschwitz railway stop. stop, yes. and you and your family we re stop, yes. and you and your family were offloaded. yes, well, we had this terrible clutter. —— platter. yes, the gates opened, and i mean, the shock and disorientation that set in was unbelievable. and was their selection straightaway? no. well, let me tell you. a polish couple, the ones with the strapped clothing, jumped into our wagon, and he said to my mother in yiddish, which are your children? and she said, well, these two are my little boys and these two are my girls. and he said to her in yiddish language,

you must let these girls go ahead. let them go ahead. you will see them later. he was so persuasive. and i think the fact that he spoke to her in her language, she looked at us and she said we'd better do it this man says. because you can imagine the disorientation, there were ss men marching up and down with guns on their shoulders. they were —— they were barking dogs and blaring loudspeakers. they always had this noise. so he was helping us down these carriages, and we won't very tall, helping us down this cattle truck, and he said to me, he asked me how old i was, and he said, you say you are 17. my sister says you

are 19, and you are a seamstress, that you have to be. which wasn't true. which wasn't true, but that's what he told us to say when we got to where? at that point, we never knew. but is it is extraordinary for me to think of you is that girl of 13, separated at that point from your mother. i know. and did you ever see her again? never saw her again. so let me tell you, as we join this enormous trail of people, we did look back, and i think my mother had a spotted scarf, and we waved to them. so we proceeded. the selection came when we came to the main gate. the selection was works make you free inscribed over it. the german. the german, yes. and we were directly proceeded to the main gate,

through the main gate to the main camp. in all honesty, years later, i thought about it, i never remember giving my name. i don't... because the shock was such. and people say why didn't you talk? you didn't talk because the trauma of it, even years later, was still there. so we... we didn't... no, we didn't. wejust went through the main gate, and the site that greeted us beyond the selection gate will stay with me for the rest of my life. there were watchtowers with machine—guns pointed at us, and there were corpses everywhere. and these emaciated looking men walking around in striped clothing, dragging those... they were like trolleys,

full of these skin and bones bodies. so after we were collected, a whole train of people, we were marched to be stripped naked, our hair shaven, and to be tested with a number. from then on, we have no name. they were given address and a pair of wooden clogs, but no underwear. nothing. you were given that advice, which probably saved your life, because you were regarded as useful. as useful, yes. and you survived for several months in auschwitz. yes, i did. before being sent to a slave labourcamp. did. before being sent to a slave labour camp. correct. looking back, when so many did not survive, what do you think gave you the strength

to get through it? was it like, or was there something more? well, it isa was there something more? well, it is a known fact that people survived in packs. my sister... you lived for each other, to have had a sister. and the second stroke of luck was my mother's older sister, who was a very beautiful lady, had already arrived in auschwitz, and she came to find us in block ia. and she decided... i mean, we were so terribly tearful and distraught, and we said this man promised we will see our mother, and she is not there. what happened? and somebody shouted in, can you see the smoke? and all this terrible ash. they are

already possibly burnt. and we never heard of crematorium. i didn't know the word crematoria. nor, who has ever heard of people being burnt? can you imagine it? anyway, she did some kind of exchange, i think it was possibly a day or two later. with another cousin or some relatives that wanted to be with their relatives, and took us into her block to take care of us. and yes, we lived for each other, and we cared for each other. and that was the reason i survived, and she was all the time with her daughters, looked after us. it is almost surreal to sit here in this co mforta ble surreal to sit here in this comfortable home of yours, which you have lived in for decades in the english midlands, and for your

extraordinarily expressive memory, to ta ke extraordinarily expressive memory, to take us back to auschwitz, and when you talk as you do with me, again, do you sort of smell the sights? how hard is it for you to conjure up these images? once i started speaking, can i tell you, i had to dig deep into my subconscious to think what happened. because let's face it. once we survived, we wa nted let's face it. once we survived, we wanted to get on with our lives. in a sense, you wanted to bury it. we wa nted a sense, you wanted to bury it. we wanted to bury it. we wanted to bury it, get on with our lives, and not live in the past. possibly that is why i am live in the past. possibly that is whyiami live in the past. possibly that is why i am i think reasonably normal, because i didn't live in the past.

because a lot of the people that lived in the past and could never get it out of their minds ended up on psychiatrists‘ couches, and so on, and they were sick people, right, through life. it was understandable. a lot of young fathers and mothers who have survived, and they have lost all theirfamily, they survived, and they have lost all their family, they were the only ones who survived, they couldn‘t come to terms with anything. it seems to me the extreme trauma that you went through and, let‘s not forget you were just 13 years old, it involved seeing the absolute worst of your fellow human beings. and ijust wonder worst of your fellow human beings. and i just wonder whether, worst of your fellow human beings. and ijust wonder whether, as you think about, for example, to the way that man, doctorjoseph mengele was in yourcamp and

that man, doctorjoseph mengele was in your camp and walking up and down the lines virtually every day select in children such as yourself from the most horrifying experiment. he was called the angel of death. that is what we called him. did you use that phrase at the time? yes. we called him the angel of death. that phrase at the time? yes. we called him the angel of deathm the end, these were nazis, fanatical people who we cannot quite understand or get inside the heads of that they are human beings. we have you have seen human beings at the very worst and yet you clearly, as you have said, you were merged and you were not consumed with anger norfear and you were not consumed with anger nor fear or and you were not consumed with anger norfear or damage. you and you were not consumed with anger nor fear or damage. you got and you were not consumed with anger norfear or damage. you got beyond it. we had damage. we had plenty of damage. we had nightmares, terrible nightmares for years afterward stop and in the nightmare you thought to yourself well, this could not have happened again. you woke up in a

nightmare to, to convince yourself that you are dreaming that it is not happening again. we had terrible nightmares for years. it was not just me, i think, most people who survived auschwitz and the terrors of the cruelty of the german soldiers, i mean, how they could stoop to such cruelty is beyond anyone‘s imagination. germany was the most cultured nation in europe. how could this stoop to such inhumanity? of course, more than 1 million people died in auschwitz and the vast majority were jewish. million people died in auschwitz and the vast majority werejewish. not all but the vast majority were because hitler‘s plan was to

eliminate european jury. so because hitler‘s plan was to eliminate europeanjury. so when because hitler‘s plan was to eliminate european jury. so when you came to the uk, after that unimaginable experience, i guess you had to figure out how to live as a jewish person and find a comfortable place for yourself in this new person that backcountry. has that been easy? was it a process?m person that backcountry. has that been easy? was it a process? it was definitely a process. because i came to england with the last group in i9a8, i went back to prague for three years but the russians were closing the orders and the family and the few people who survived were emigrating to australia and to israel and so on. and to help an auntand israel and so on. and to help an aunt and uncle in england who were

very orthodox and they had traditional hope. so to be quite honest, when i got back to prague i did not think we would have chosen —— we were the chosen people. religion did not mean anything to me. when i came to england to a very observant home and on a stateless passport it is some kind of stigma. you feel you need to belong. so i joined ajewish you feel you need to belong. so i joined a jewish community and reconnected with my judaism joined a jewish community and reconnected with myjudaism which i had left behind for some years and i contributed to the community with my work and various activities. as you said for some time you really did not talk about the experience in

auschwitz. we did not talk at all about it. not at all. in the course of your life have you come to believe that it is vitally important that the story is told, particularly to young people, and that it is part of everybody‘s education. to young people, and that it is part of everybody's education. that is very important to me really, really important that we tell our story to educators, two children at school and that we have these events at school and we have memorials because otherwise, as i said before, with the passage of time it could just erode and that would be quite unbearable to me. what we're talking about when we reflect on what happened to you in your and the horrors of auschwitz, we are talking about the most extreme form of hate.

genocidal race hate which was absolutely targeting the jewish people of europe. you have since spent many decades living in the united kingdom as a jewish woman. have you, over time, united kingdom as a jewish woman. have you, overtime, come united kingdom as a jewish woman. have you, over time, come to believe that anti—semitism is slowly being eradicated or, in recent times have you come to fear that the horrors of the past have not entirely been eliminated? anti-semitism is on the rise which frightens me greatly as i get older and thinking of my grandchildren, heaven forbid they should have to go through anything like that. but i am always an optimist and i was hoping that this

2ist optimist and i was hoping that this 21st century will bring something better than the 20th. on that note i am interested to hear about your own return to germany. and to auschwitz which you did a few years ago. how was that for you? how difficult was it? it was difficult but the fact i went with people who cared for me and looked after me and it made it that much easier. but the emotion, i felt drained when we got home, particularly when i went the first time. ijust could not... it was surreal to think that i have come out, it was literally held. so the memories come back and you go to germany and i am mindful that in the

last day or two the german president at one of the commemorations in jerusalem he, with real passion he said we germans recognise the burden of guilt that we have to carry. in your mind and in your heart, when your mind and in your heart, when you go to germany and you meet german people, are you able to forgive? is that a word that is releva nt forgive? is that a word that is relevant in this case? i can't forgive them for losing my parents that my little brothers. and many many other members of my family. what we have been through as children, as young women. i cannot forgive them. but i am preaching not

to hate. that hatred has catastrophic consequences. you cannot live with hate, people‘s hate hurts you all your life. i tell you what strikes me so very clearly, you sit with me, 90 years old and so positive, still with such incredible faith in the ability of human beings to ove rco m e faith in the ability of human beings to overcome their differences. we have to do. i have to believe that there is good in people. i really do. whether it is because of my religious belief, i don‘t know. but i must leave that there is some good in people and they will strive for antiracism, and he islamophobia and anti—semitism. so let‘s hope it is to be done. i must be hope for. let

us to be done. i must be hope for. let us hope. let us take you.” to be done. i must be hope for. let us hope. let us take you. i hope the 2ist us hope. let us take you. i hope the 21st century will bring a more positive outlook. mindu hornick, it has been a privilege to talk to you and have you on hardtalk. thank you very much. hello. after a largely dry and settled week last week, things are now changing. we had some rain on many parts on sunday which cleared. clear skies during sunset. this was a stunning picture from the shetland on sunday evening. things will be

turning colder over the next day or so because of the blue colours on the map showing a westerly influence. the mild area is being pushed away towards the east. a chilly start to monday morning with temperatures below freezing on the northern half of the uk, cold and rural spots with sleet and snow showers around as well. likely to bring some icy stretches to monday morning across parts of scotland, northern ireland and northern england as well. a sharp frost, watch out for some ice around first thing with sleet and snow showers. not only on the hills but down to relatively lower levels as well. further south across england and wales as well rain showers here with some sleepiness over high ground in wales. some hail and thunder the with the heaviest of the showers. a bit of dry weather around on monday for parts of east anglia, northern england to eastern scotland as well but further south and west that is where you see the bulk of the showers and once again they will be

wintry across parts of northern ireland and scotland as well. colder than recent days with temperatures around a—9d on monday and quite blustery as well. that breeze picks up blustery as well. that breeze picks up during monday evening, blustery through the english channel, the bristol channel for instance as well with more heavy showers rattling through as we had three monday night and on into tuesday morning. simply spells will bring us to another cold night, widespread frost and a risk of eisinger‘s for almost anywhere on tuesday, particularly for scotland, northern ireland, northern england and north wales as well. tuesday dawns on a cold night with wintry showers again in the north. sunny spells through the day. eastern scotla nd spells through the day. eastern scotland much of central and east england see dry weather but more showers rattling in from the west elsewhere and a little colder once again, eight degrees on tuesday. then we have a ridge of high pressure working in from the atla ntic pressure working in from the atlantic as we head on into wednesday. that will quieten the weather down for a day or so, especially in the south. a dry day for england and wales and northern ireland tending to dry out as well.

the rain until snow will put across scotla nd the rain until snow will put across scotland the day on wednesday. still relatively cool at this stage in the week, 7— io relatively cool at this stage in the week, 7— 10 degrees but things will then turn mild and we return to double figures more widely towards the end of the week. a chilly start with snow and ice, dry through the middle of the week and then things once again turn mild and unsettled later in the week.

this is newsday on the bbc. i am rico hizon in singapore. the headlines: basketball great kobe bryant dies in a helicopter crash aged ai. it is sad to see a basketball great path like that but we will keep his legacy alive. the private helicopter he was travelling in crashed in california and burst into flames, killing nine people, including his i3—year—old daughter. i‘m lewis vaughanjones in london. also in the programme: china reveals the coronavirus,