hello. it's wednesday, it's 10:00, i'm victoria derbyshire and we're live from new broadcasting house. british airways has suspended all direct flights to and from china, because of the coronavirus. but this brit who's got a place on an evacuation flight from wuhan to the uk says he's not taking a seat on the plane, because the british government isn't planning to quarantine uk nationals. we have had a debate among the british community about how stupid and ludicrous it is compared to what other governments are doing, like the us. they are quarantining the citizens in alaska for m days. australia are planning to quarantine

their citizens on christmas island for m their citizens on christmas island for 14 days. when we get home we are allowed to walk the streets willy—nilly. controversial new proposals seen by this programme reveal women as young as 18 could be targeted by facebook and instagram ads encouraging them to become surrogate mums. we'll get reaction from two women who've carried a baby for someone else. people give to people all of the time. i see it no different from, you know, dropping a pound in a beggar‘s tin on the street to giving somebody, you know, the gift of life. if you can help somebody why wouldn't you do it? every surrogate hopes after they've gone through this they can give birth, hand the babies over and get on with their lives, but instead, i was left to relive the traumatic birth over and over again for two years and it was just awful. right now the law bans surrogacy advertising and the new plans have prompted a warning from the government's own fertility regulator.

we'll have the full story in a few minutes. coummuters on northern trains who've put up with years of terrible train journeys find out today if it's going to be sreturned to government control. it's late every day. half of them don't turn up. sometimes you just can't get on and it's shocking and when it comes to summer, people are fainting on the trains, as well cos it's so overcrowded and hot. and we'll hear about all the winners at last night's national television awards. i'm just so, so grateful that such a negative experience in my life turned into such a positive one and that's all thanks to you guys, so thank you so much. hi, welcome to the programme. we're live until 11 this morning. have you been a surrogate? or has someone else

carried a baby for you? that is our exclusive story which we will bring you in the next few minutes. get in touch with your own experiences because you know we do appreciate those and we can feed them into the conversation. use the hashtag victoria live. email victoria@bbc.co.uk. text 61124 — it'll cost the standard network rate. first, annita mcveigh has the news. good morning. british airways has suspended all flights to and from mainland china, following the foreign office advice against all but essential travel due to the coronavirus. japan and the us have begun evacuating their nationals from hubei province to escape the virus, which has now killed at least 132 people. almost 6000 cases have so far been confirmed — more than the number of people who were infected with sars in mainland china in 2002 and 2003. the government minister nicky morgan says the decision made by ba is understandable.

well, the foreign office has advised against all but essential travel and i think it's an understandable decision at british airways have taken. it's obviously a very worrying situation and ijust heard the last interview you were doing with the lady who is in wuhan. obviously the uk government is working very hard on measures about bringing uk nationals home. and again, people should watch the foreign office website for details of that. a decision on the future of the north of england's biggest railfranchise, northern, is expected to be made today. commuters will find out whether the service will be nationalised. northern has been losing money and has been plagued by problems resulting in cancellations and delays. well—placed sources are predicting that its services will be taken into public control. thousands of seriously ill patients in england each week have to wait more than an hour for an ambulance. the figure, uncovered by bbc news under the freedom of information act, includes some people suffering from heart attacks or strokes.

the chairman of the ambulance association of chief executives said the number of people needing help over christmas had contributed to the figures. certainly in the run—up to christmas, the numbers of 999 calls that the ambulance service was dealing with right across the country have reached levels that we've not seen previously. that's also been reflected in the numbers of patients arriving at emergency departments. we also saw flu levels and levels of norovirus increase in the run—up to christmas. thankfully those numbers have returned to a normal seasonal average in january, which has taken some of the pressure off which will ensure the performance continues to improve during january and for the rest of the winter. changes to the rules around surrogacy could see advertisements on facebook and instagram for the first time urging young women to become surrogate mothers. currently surrogacy is legal in the uk but only if it's not for profit — although expenses can be paid. but the government has asked the law commission to review the issue. under their new proposals, a blanket

ban on advertising could be lifted. prince andrew is said to have hit back at claims that he is refusing to assist us law enforcers in their investigation into the convicted sex offender, jeffrey epstein. sources close to the prince are quoted in a number of newspapers suggesting the duke of york was "angry and bewildered" after claims that he had provided "zero cooperation" to investigators. manchester united have condemned an attack on the home of their executive vice—chairman, ed woodward, which was reportedly carried out by angry fans hurling flares. the club said it was an "unwarranted attack" and warned that anyone found to be responsible would be banned for life. the european parliament is set to approve the terms of the uk's departure from the european union in an historic vote later. the 751 representatives in brussels are expected overwhelmingly to back ratification of the withdrawal agreement, paving the way for the uk to leave with a deal

in place on friday. and that is a summary of our main story so far. back to you now, victoria. thank you. let's talk more then about ba suspending all flights to china suspending all flights to china after the deaths of 132 people from the coronovirus. tomorrow brits are due to be evacuated under uk government plans, but a pe teacher from lancaster who's in lockdown in wuhan has told this programme he won't take his seat on the plane because, he says, the public safe here from the coronvirus are "stupid" and "ludicrous". kharn lambert is calling for brits to be quarantined for two weeks when they get home like other countries. he says his 81—year—old gran, who you can see here with him, will take up her place on the plane because her health condition means she's more at risk. australia plans to quarantine its 600 returning citizens for two weeks on christmas island —

2,000km from the mainland. i've been speaking to kharn lambert in wuhan, along with independent community pharmacy owner 0livier picard who says he's sold out of face masks, and is struggling to buy more for his pharmacy. kharn tells us he received more information about british repatriation earlier today. this morning i received an e—mail when i woke up basically saying that they had planned a flight to evacuate from wuhan to london on thursday the 30th. and if we wanted to confirm our place on the flight, that we had to call the embassy to confirm that. so this is a british embassy e—mail you got today and when you read that, how did you react? i obviously got straight onto the phone to double check and make sure that my grandmother was on the flight, sure that my grandmother was on the flight, first of all. also they had

my details. you must have been relieved? i was relieved, my details. you must have been relieved? iwas relieved, untili heard the message they were reading out after we had confirmed our seats on the flight. what do you mean? the last pa rt on the flight. what do you mean? the last part that was read out to us, which was read out to every british citizen that called the embassy this morning, was that when we return to the uk it is our responsibility to find our own transport back to our home towns and that we must self isolate for 1h days. which, for us, asa isolate for 1h days. which, for us, as a british community, is quite ridiculous. because this virus has an incubation period of ridiculous. because this virus has an incubation period 01:14 days, which means it can spread, you know, within 1a which means it can spread, you know, within14 days and without any symptoms. so good news that you and your grant symptoms. so good news that you and yourgrantare symptoms. so good news that you and

your grant are on this flight for a start but when you get back here, you have to find some way of getting home, i don't know if a taxi would turn upforyou, home, i don't know if a taxi would turn up for you, but you have to sort that out and then you have to stay in your home for two weeks? for two weeks, yes, 1a days. once we arrived back home. but, you know, the potential to infect other people on the way home is a serious issue. what are you going to do then?” have actually taken the decision to withdraw my name from the evacuation list. i am not happy with that situation. i don't want to put the health of regular, everyday british citizens at risk. but i am evacuating my grandmother because her health, she suffers with copd and it is betterfor her to be at home than in china in case she

doesn't need any medical decision. that is an incredible gesture from you? to me it sounds ludicrous. maybe the government will change plans but this is exactly what the embassy said this morning. we had a heated and debated discussion among oui’ heated and debated discussion among u heated and debated discussion among ourgroup in the heated and debated discussion among our group in the british community about how stupid and ludicrous it is compared to other governments are doing it like the us, for example. they are quarantining their citizens in alaska for 1h days. australia are planning to send their citizens to christmas island for 1h days. so these countries who are quarantining their citizens, but when we get home we are allowed to walk the streets willy—nilly. we are allowed to walk the streets willy-nilly. i don't if you have thought this far, you say you want the quarantine period of isolation, where would you be comfortable with being sent to? it is not that we wa nt being sent to? it is not that we want it, it is what we would expect.

but where would be a practical place for you to go to? i am sure the government have air bases they could use. government have air bases they could use. for example, they have used air bases for outbreaks in the past. i am pretty sure they have an air base where they could isolate people and release the people that arrive in the uk, once they are certain they don't have the virus. how many british nationals in your whatsapp group out there? we have about 250, 260 nationals, but there are also issues with british nationals being married to chinese citizens, or citizens of other southeast asian countries. understood. do you know if any other british nationals have withdrawn from this british evacuation flight for similar reasons to you? i know a couple have a draw but that is because their

family are not allowed to travel with them so they have decided to stay in wuhan because the government have said, you can comfort your family must stay in wuhan. just respond to what he's saying, the government are going to bring brits back and they have told them to get home however they can and then stay indoors effectively for two weeks. it has been described as stupid and ludicrous, how would you describe it? i think it is precautionary. there has been no confirmation of the virus in the uk so at the moment it is precautionary they asked people to go back to their home and isolate themselves. is it enough of a precaution in your view? it is at the moment because there is no confirmed cases in the country. they are asked not to go on a school run and ask friends and family to take their children to school and the

isolation is precautionary. and the travelling to your home, do you have a concerns about that? there are always concerns because they are asking people to travel back from china and isolate themselves for 14 days, so there will be concerns. there are measures people can do and wearing the mask is one of the things that people can do. there are other health things people can do that we can discuss. however, i think if there was a confirmed case, the nhs has plans in place to quarantine people and people who would come back from china within14 days, they look for symptoms, a fever, sore throat and a cough and a test will be carried out and then they will be isolated if they are confirmed cases. how many people are coming into your pharmacies, you run four of them, on a daily basis asking for mass? my store in

windsor, we have a lot of tourists, but i have in excess of 20 or 30 people, mostly chinese people to come and buy the masks. i am asking them why by the mass, are they travelling back to china are wearing in this country? in most cases, they are sending them back to china because they are unavailable in china or they are on a flight going back to china or hong kong. the chinese government is asking people to wear the mask as a compulsory measure. as a result you have sold out. it is still a small number but a relatively small number? it is a relatively small number, it is a stocked item but we have a very low volume. if i'd had 100 times the stock i had, i would have sold that many times over. thank you. thank you both, we will keep in touch with you both, we will keep in touch with you and good luck and best wishes to your grant. thank you very much,

thanks. just reading your messages, jack has tweeted, self isolate? how can he do that and coming home he would put many others at risk. this e—mailfrom paul says would put many others at risk. this e—mail from paul says a friend of mine is stuck with his family in china. he has been told he and his nine—year—old daughter can be evacuated from wuhan but his wife has to stay because she is a chinese national. he is faced with a horrible decision. and then paul sends this facebook message from a british national coal djere. he says, we have to make the decision that we either all stay here we have to stay here without my wife my daughter's mum cindy. cindy is the mother of a nine—year—old and has been asked to be treated as a special case but they say there are no guarantees. how can they put a family in this position and asks jeff on facebook, having to leave cindy in china would be the worst thing anybody could be put through.

how ami thing anybody could be put through. how am i going to telljasmine that her mum has to stay behind? we will try and talk to jeff her mum has to stay behind? we will try and talk tojeff if he can, get hold of him on facebook and tie and talk to him before the end of the programme. coming on the programme... jesy nelson from little mix wins a national television award for her documentary about experiencing trolling. we'll have news of that and chat about some other winners from last night's ntas. and will northern rail be nationalised? with passengers facing constant delays and cancellations — the government is likely to make a big announcement later today. we'll hear from passengers. controversial facebook and instagram adverts urging young women to become surrogate mums could be allowed for the first time under plans seen by this programme, prompting a warning from the government's own fertility regulator. right now it's against the law to advertise for a surrogate or pay

more than reasonable expenses for someone to carry a baby. but that could be about to change. 0ur reporterjim reed has the exclusive story. emily and charlotte are amazing little girls. they're very different. they're very happy. yeah. i think the weird thing for me is they switch on who's the naughty one and who's the nice one on any particular day. caroline and ian had been trying for a baby for years. but there were setbacks. health problems and a series of miscarriages. we had a black cloud over us, basically, but we were so determined that we wanted to have children, that you just keep going. was there ever a stage when you thought it's just not going to happen for us? we're going to have to decide this is not the route that we're going to go down? no, never. no.

it was never a factor that ever came into it. it was always a case of, come what may, that we would be parents somehow. ivf didn't work. so theyjoined surrogacy uk, a not—for—profit community of surrogates and would—be parents. they met another couple who already had their own children. i remember going home to my mum and dad... sorry. why am i crying in this bit? this is a good bit. and then the next day, which was a sunday, we got a call from surrogacy uk to say that shell and al wanted to help us to try and have a baby. there was a longer three—month getting to know period. then shell was implanted with caroline's fertilised eggs. we went for our first scan and i remember the doctor saying, "there's one heartbeat" and then we were getting ready to go, he went, "and there's another one." my heart literallyjumped out of my chest, i think, that when you suddenly realise that you've got a really good chance of becoming parents, of not only one, but two kids. you then worry about how on earth

you're going to bring up two children at once. as things stand, surrogacy in the uk is legal only if it's not for profit, though expenses can be paid. in most of europe, including france, germany and sweden, the practice is banned outright. in other countries, like parts of the us, commercial surrogacy for a fee has been legal for many years. the government has asked an advisory body to review the law in england, wales and scotland so this won't apply if the surrogate is overseas. the law commission has now published its provisional plans. surrogacy has always been legal in the uk. there was a framework put in place in 1985, but what we heard is it very much reflects a different era. so what we're doing is redesigning the law so that it provides much greater certainty and protection. under the plans the new or intended parents will take legal

responsibility for a baby at birth. agencies which match surrogates and parents will still be banned from making a profit. but, for the first time, it would be legal for firms to charge, to negotiate or advise on a surrogacy. a blanket ban on advertising would be lifted, something the fertility regulator has warned could lead to significant cultural change and perhaps criticism. the most controversial question, payments, is left open with the public asked for its views on whether surrogates should receive more than just expenses. some argue that would help meet rising demand and prevent other couples going overseas, where the risk of exploitation is higher. many women's rights groups, though, say they have serious concerns. the suggestion of new legislation from the law commission really paves the way for a more commercialised model of surrogacy. they include suggestions that young women who've never had children

before might be suitable surrogates, and they open up the possibility of appetising for surrogacy services. and again, very little consideration from the law commission of what that really means and what that would really look like so that in itself is also very concerning. you only hear the rose—tinted version of what happened. you never hear what happened when things go wrong. this is a side of surrogacy you rarely see. anna, not her real name, agreed to carry a baby for a friend. she was asked to go to a clinic for ivf. i had two embryos put inside me. then something happened. i started to encounter hostility from the intended mother. i think she was experiencing emotions ofjealousy. huge alarm bells, but it was too late and i was pregnant. then both the intended parents

were trying to tell me how and where i should give birth. i really started to freak out. the birth was traumatic. one of the twins was starved of oxygen, and investigation into medicalfailings by hospital staff took two years. i didn't receive any support at all. every surrogate hopes after they've gone through this, they can give birth, hand the babies over and get on with their lives. instead, i was left to relive the traumatic birth over and over again for two years and it was just awful. i am now left with deep psychological scars, incontinence issues, my abdominal muscles are completely wrecked. pregnancy can go wrong. the law commission says it's the job

of politicians to decide if surrogacy should be allowed or not. a freedom of information request found that before launching its consultation to the public, the commission met with no women's rights groups. it did meet 11 companies with a commercial interest in surrogacy, including two north american law firms. it's understood at least some of those meetings were set up by the commission to better understand how the law works and the impacts of any possible changes. what we would ask the law commission to do as a starting point is to effectively go back to the drawing board and we would ask them to consult meaningfully with women's organisations and to look at the long term mental health effects of surrogacy, which, as far as we can see, haven't been considered at all in the run up to this consultation. the law commission says it has also been speaking to groups opposed to commercial surrogacy.

it claims its plans will better protect all sides, including the surrogate. that protection will include, for example, implications counselling by a qualified counsellor, and it will include independent legal advice, all of which would be paid for by the intended parents. so the surrogate, the women, considering surrogacy, is not left out of pocket. the concern by some people i've spoken to is that there is a slight agenda here that the law commission is starting from a point of let's see if we can liberalise this. this is a slow walk, slow march towards commercialisation. but there is absolutely no agenda here. our intention is not to liberalise surrogacy. to increase surrogacy. our intention is to provide a safe and effective legal framework for those people who are entering into surrogacy arrangements. welcome to the new house. i know, it's amazing. five years after the birth,

caroline and ian are still close friends with their surrogate shell and her husband. the twins know the role that shell played in their birth. and treat her as part of an extended family. people help people all the time. people give to people all of the time. i see it no different from, you know, dropping a pound into a beggar‘s tin on the street to, you know, giving somebody, you know, the gift of life. if you can help somebody, why wouldn't you do it? shell supports parts of the law commission's proposals, but thinks moves to legalise higher payments will create a more commercial form of surrogacy would be a mistake. it's not something i would advocate. surrogacy needs to be based on friendship, trust. and, you know, a commercial payment, itjust feels wrong. i'm not selling anything. the moment it becomes transactional, the moment it becomes a service, then there is reason for both sides

to then start having an argument about that transaction rather than about actually the output which is starting a family, this wonderful thing. this is not then an easy balance for the law commission to strike. the full consultation is expected to last until 2021, when a new law will shape surrogacy in this country for the next generation. we are going to have a conversation about those issues in a moment. 0ur health editor hugh pym is here with some breaking news. and the evacuation flight which is due to bring brits back from china tomorrow? we have just had it confirmed that matt hancock the health secretary, has told officials he wants the brits who come back to the uk to be put in quarantine for

up the uk to be put in quarantine for up to 14 days, the incubation period. we don't know where it is going to be, it could be at a military base somewhere in the uk. sources tell me that people will be looked after in the best possible way, the best possible medical care and advice but when they get back, almost certainly tomorrow, up to 200 will be in quarantine for that two—week period. will be in quarantine for that two-week period. which is very interesting because we have just spoken to a brit in wuhan who is not taking up his place on the evacuation place because he said the fa ct evacuation place because he said the fact that the british government didn't have plans to quarantine people was ludicrous and stupid. to quote his words. they have received an e—mail from the quote his words. they have received an e—mailfrom the british quote his words. they have received an e—mail from the british ability this morning to say you have a place on this flight, when you get here, make your own way home and self isolate, stay in your own home please for two weeks. he said that was stupid? clearly things have moved on very rapidly since then and the health secretary has decided the same precautions need to be taken in the uk as the us government is doing

with its citizens and australian citizens being put into quarantine. that the same should happen here. sounds as if that will be welcomed by those british people coming back and it will be two weeks when they are in some sort of secure area, possibly a military base, getting the best possible care and advice. we don't know where it is going to be but that has just been confirmed to me literally in the last few minutes. keep him, thank you very much. your reaction is welcome, send us an e—mail. just before he came m, us an e—mail. just before he came in, iwas us an e—mail. just before he came in, i was getting messages like this. claudia on twitter responding to our interview. i cannot believe what i'm hearing, because we don't have any cases of the coronavirus in the uk, people can bring it here with isolation being at their discretion. but as we have just heard, the british government does have plans to quarantine british nationals who are due to fly back from wuhan tomorrow. let's carry on

with our conversation about surrogacy and the law commission proposals we have seen exclusively which suggests there might be some lifting of restrictions around surrogacy in this country. now let's talk to natalie gamble who owns a not—for—profit surrogacy agency in this coutry and a commercial family law firm which specialises in surrogacy. natalie supports these new proposals, including lifting the ban on adveritsing for surrogates, and plans to pay surrogates more than just expenses. also with us isjulie bindel, a women's rights campaigner, who has studied and written extensively about surrogacy. julie is against all forms of surrogacy as she thinks it exploits women. and in glasgow this morning is dr gillian wright, a hospital doctor turned expert in medical ethics, who thinks the situation as it is in the uk is acceptable, but doesn't agree with any form of commercialisation of surrogacy. welcome, all of you. i am going to

show the kind of advert you can get in america, and we will show it to our audiences as well. it says, be passionate in helping couples who could not bear a child, help them to have a family. then it goes on to talk about how much a potential surrogate could earn in fears. from $55,000 up to $80,000. julie, this is the kind of advert you get in the us. what would be wrong with having those adverts here? we already see exploitation of young women, desperate women, poor women, and thatis desperate women, poor women, and that is what we are talking about. you can see the surrogate is the atypical poster girl. surrogacy is a trade, a nasty trade. it operates in some ways like a global sex trade in some ways like a global sex trade in some ways. the women's bodies are used and abused, they are often seen as vessels, often there is trafficking for surrogacy. there are

women i have met notjust in the india and other places i have been, where women are desperate. in california military wives who have been through domestic violence who are homeless, who are bullied into surrogacy by their husbands will do this, thinking this will solve all their problems. are you saying there is exploitation in this country? you are absolutely, it is a commercial trade. the inside of a woman's body is being used as a workplace. 0nly if the woman agrees. if you look at other forms of exploitation you do not have a gun to your head necessarily. if you look at what women are earning in california, people see it as a huge amount and people see it as a huge amount and people think it is great, how can you prevent them from earning this money? in effect she is earning less

than $4 an hour. why would you be happy with ads that we just saw there on instagram and facebook, encouraging young women to become surrogates? the advertising restrictions were written in 1985 and there has never been a prosecution under them, so we are already seeing advertising online around surrogacy. does that mean we should legalise it because it is already happening? the recommendations are that we provide more protections for women going into surrogacy to make sure they are doing it on an informed basis. it is that counter balance of making sure there are proper safeguards at the beginning. what do you say to julie's points about exploitation, it isa julie's points about exploitation, it is a trade, it is treating women as vessels. that does not reflect the experience of surrogacy that we see. i would love julie to meet the people we have worked with. they do this to help someone else, to have a family. they find it incredibly

empowering and rewarding. they are the atypical poster girls. there are people who smoked 60 cigarettes a day and never get cancer. there are the happy hookers who say the prostitution experience and they have never met a nasty client. the women i have met in the global north in rich countries as well as the developing world have to sign contracts, they are bullied throughout their pregnancy to do what the so—called intended parents, or the baby buyers, want them to do. the babies are born by cesarean section so the intended parents can turn up on the date that they want their produce and merchandise delivered. that is not the reality of surrogacy in the uk at all. surrogates and parents for incredible bonds. there has been research at cambridge university about long—term outcomes for children and for surrogates. excuse me, the outcomes are, and i quote from the research findings, that it

is only really as traumatic for the children further down the line born of surrogacy is adoption. adoption isa of surrogacy is adoption. adoption is a fairly traumatic experience also. these children are loved and wanted and they thrive. and they are purchased. even the altruistic surrogacy that we see, the poster girl, the women go through hell of separating themselves from those babies when they have to see them. 0ften babies when they have to see them. often these relationships break down, as we have seen. that isjust not the case. we have dealt with more than a thousand surrogacy arrangements and a tiny fraction of breakdowns. surrogates have relationships with their parents and the surrogate in the long term. you runa company the surrogate in the long term. you run a company which is a not—for—profit agency that charges £15,000 to match potential parents with surrogates and provide related services, legal advice, counselling and so on. how do you justify that

cost? through the legal work we have done around surrogacy we saw the difficulties parents and surrogates we re difficulties parents and surrogates were getting into around informal arrangements and parents going overseas and we wanted to make things better. this is a labour of love for us. it is not if you are charging £15,000. it is a not—for—profit basis and we spent an enormous amount of time screening and making sure everything is right. there is no cap on the salary you pay yourself or your staff? we pay the staff who come to work supporting parents and surrogates. but you are not a charity. this is how i have often heard others describe themselves. they do not use that term, it is very misleading. there is a huge amount of money to be made from this and often the women are paid a pittance to come paired what they promise. they are desperate. i am sure that many of your viewers will be sitting there

thinking, this isn't exactly how i would like to earn a living, going through a pregnancy, especially when pregnancy is dangerous. planting something that is alien to your dna, the body might try to reject it. two weeks ago we saw a woman die in pregnancy and she was a surrogate. let natalie respond. the whole purpose of the service we provide is to keep women and parents save and to keep women and parents save and to protect the best interests of children and we spend a huge amount of time and effort to make sure women really understand the risks they are going into and they are making a free choice. they are the kind of women who do this because i wa nt kind of women who do this because i want to do this to help others. the initial proposals argue there will be more protection for women because at the moment there is no obligation... let me finish, there is no obligation for intended

pa rents to is no obligation for intended parents to provide legal advice or counselling for their surrogates and under these plans they will be. that will be a good thing. it will not happen. there cannot be protection when we talk about major health risks. women sell eggs, they are called egg donors, they sell them through catalogues. they choose eggs and then they choose the room to plan it into like this is some kind of going out and buy a car. the women cannot be protected by this because there will always be exploiters in this trade. i cannot think of anyone who would run a surrogacy trade for profit that is not an exploitive. let me bring in doctor gillian wright, a hospital doctor turned expert in medical ethics. you are involved in some sense in this consultation, unlike other women's rights groups and so on. what do you think of these proposals? i think they are difficult in that they shift the

balance of power towards the intended parents, rather than to the surrogate mother. ithink intended parents, rather than to the surrogate mother. i think that is an important and difficult step that has been taken forward. we are really concerned about the welfare of the surrogate mother and her interests and we are concerned that power instead has been given to the intended parents. for example, a legal parent who is no longer going to be the prerogative of the surrogate mother, but that of the intended parents. we are concerned there has been a shift, particularly from the medical ethics perspective. we would want there to be robust, informed consent when women are taking this step to be surrogate mothers. we want them to know... your piece was very representative, there are many successful and safe pregnancies, but there are pregnancies, but there are pregnancies which are extremely high risk and the recent death in california brings that into point.

do you think there is a risk that if the restrictions on ads are banned, if intended parents are allowed to pay more than reasonable expenses, is there a risk that young women, 18—year—olds and 19—year—olds who have never had a baby, could be potentially exploited asjulie says? i think it is interesting that this seems to be what happens in most countries. we need to learn lessons from other countries. india has re ce ntly from other countries. india has recently banned commercial surrogacy because it was serving in a place where people were seeking out surrogates and young women were being abused by tourists who were seeking them for a baby. could that happen in this country?” seeking them for a baby. could that happen in this country? i think it certainly could. if we are providing a framework for commercial surrogacy, we are letting that potential open. this person says, i

have carried two babies for two different couples. they were not my eggs or my husband's spam, so i did not have the same emotional attachment that i have had to my own children. if it had been my egg, i know i could not have done it. to me it was like i was holding someone else's baby for a while and i give it back. both times were very happy, emotional events that brought great happiness to three people and they sent me regular updates. ajay on twitter says, this is the handmaids tale version in 2020. women's bodies are not for sale, it is disgraceful and disgusting exploitation. maddie says, iam and disgusting exploitation. maddie says, i am a surrogate currently 14 weeks pregnant. i do this to help amazing people become parents who would not otherwise be able to, not for money. moving towards a commercial model will lead to exploitation on both sides, however. john says, surrogacy should be made

illegal. if anyone who cannot have a child can adopt, there are plenty of children in need of a good home. why do you think it has been made illegal in certain european countries, but not here. what we see is parents from those countries go overseas to other destinations, so it does not prevent surrogacy from happening. in the uk we take a more middle path and we want to make sure that it middle path and we want to make sure thatitis middle path and we want to make sure that it is done properly. it is important to stress the whole purpose of the law commission recommendations is to make surrogacy safer. it is happening and we want to provide those protections to make sure that surrogates and children and parents going into these arrangements are better protected. what would be your message to politicians who will ultimately make any decision on future regulations around surrogacy? don't further normalise surrogacy. let's make it illegal in all of the countries where people are going to exploit women. stop saying that this is a right for people to have their own child grown in another woman's room

and let's put money into counselling for women and men whose lives are undermined if they cannot have children. thank you for your conversations. feel free to get in touch. iam going i am going to bring you breaking news from the grenfell enquiry. phase two started on monday. witnesses involved in designing and choosing materials and the grenfell enquiry are applied to claim, quote, privilege against self—incrimination, privilege against self—incrimination, to protect themselves from the prospect of prosecution. that has just been heard this morning at the enquiry. people in the room groaned as the chairman said that counsel for external wall contractor and the

te na nt external wall contractor and the tenant management organisation had made this application on tuesday. they won immunity from prosecution it would appear, before they give evidence. more to come before 11. more to come before 11. coummuters on northern trains who've put up with years of terrible train journeys find out today if it's going to be returned to government control. we'll chat to passengers. the national television awards were last night and winners included mrs brown's boys, jesy nelson, peaky blinders and sir michael palin. ant and dec won best presenters for the 19th year running. how many years, colin? 19. and they we re how many years, colin? 19. and they were sick with nerves before their names were called out. some surprises, but let's romaine people these are the awards voted for by viewers. that is the big thing, they

are voted for by the public, so let's ta ke are voted for by the public, so let's take best comedy. during award seasonit let's take best comedy. during award season it has been dominated by flea bag and it season it has been dominated by fleabag and it won all the awards in the states, but come back to britain and the viewer say, no, we are not having it, mrs brown's boys one. we don't have that clip. tell us what brendan 0'carroll said. he said he thought they had no chance this year because the competition was so strong. they were up against ricky gervais is. he turned up at the awards and you only get someone of his standing turning up if they were tipped off that they were going to win. but he went home empty—handed. there was a big award for gavin and stacey as well. it was actually not

eligible for the awards, but they made up an award, the impact award. 18.5 million people watched that christmas special. people thought those days had gone, having that big, communal viewing figures. those days had gone, having that big, communalviewing figures. 0n stage ruth jones big, communalviewing figures. 0n stage ruthjones was there. do we have this clip? let's have a look. i am on the edge of my heat seat. 0h, 0lly... yes. what's omurring ? cheering and applause. i don't know what you're laughing at, tom. you never writes, you never phones. there's still a lot of electricity between me and sir tom... ..and don't you knows it. i don't really talk like that. thank you so much for this. thank you to the national television awards. what else? tell us. michael palin

won the lifetime achievement award and when he got on stage he did not speak about his career, he decided to use his acceptance speech to pay tribute to his great friend terry jones, his monty python colleague, who died last week. let's see a bit of that. most of all, to the man for whom i might not have been here tonight at all, my dear friend of 60 yea rs, tonight at all, my dear friend of 60 years, terryjones, thank you. and of course ant and deck. 19 times in a row and this was in the year when they did not do their saturday night show. they were enthusiastic to win it. dec said he had to build a

bigger cabinet. every year you feel like you will vomit a bit more intensely, the nerves get more and more, and then when you open the envelope and see your name you feel so grateful to everybody for having taken the time to work for you. you are more grateful as you get older to get these awards, because it is voted for by the viewers and we have been around for so long and we are still up there and they are still voting for us and we are very thankful. got through a couple of difficult years as well. yes, our viewers have stuck with us and they are still voting for us and for that we will be eternally grateful. they will win next year. 20 years, it is a no—brainer. will win next year. 20 years, it is a no-brainer. that is about as absolutely as sure thing that we can be. i am happy for them. they are

brilliant, they have got great ideas, they are creative. thank you. now your messages on surrogacy. anthony says, we are a gay couple and our sister—in—law offered to be and our sister—in—law offered to be a surrogate for us. we are a close family and she sees our son most weeks. i am sure there are disruptions that go wrong, but i do not accept that all women who are surrogates are being exploited. keep getting in touch. next, some really sad news. a young football player in an under 12's side in south wales has collapsed with a suspected cardiac arrest during a training session. let's get more from our correspondent tomos morgan. tell our audience what you know so far. what we do know is this happened late last night when the under twelves were training at penland football club in the centre of swa nsea penland football club in the centre of swansea in an area called townhill. at a training session one of the young boys did collapse. it

is understood parents try to help the young child with his breathing, administering cpr. the first team coach, posting as crabby on twitter, said the parents were able to help the child breathe before 20 to seven and an ambulance was called. the young boy was transferred directly to the university hospital of wales in cardiff. the first team coach added on twitter that the thoughts and prayers are with the family and they are praying the boy makes a full recovery. also posting about that incident last night, at the training session, was a former boxer and he echoed what had been said and said without a doubt it was the most frightened he had ever been. he will be in my prayers tonight. we do not have an update on the lads condition, but as soon as we have word, i will let you know. thank you

very much. we send all our love and best wishes to the family. thank you very much. the government will announce today if the north of england's biggest rail operator northern will be nationalised. passengers have endured years of unreliable services. the transport seceretary has already said performance is "unacceptable". northern connects towns and cities like preston and blackburn in the west to places like york and hull in the east via manchester and leeds. let's talk to simon kendall, who filmed that journey, and fellow commuter vicki coleman. simon commutes to manchester from west yorkshire and vicki commutes to manchester from middleton, near rochdale. also with us is kristinna counsell, a wheelchair user from preston who tweeted about how helpful northern were when she got the train on saturday, and robert nisbet, the director of nations and regions for the rail delivery group, an umbrella organisation for the various rail

companies in the country. welcome, all of you. simon, you live in hebden bridge, but you don't travel from your local station, you travel from your local station, you travel half an hour away in the car to littleborough to get your train into manchester. why? mainly because of the frequency of trains. it is an hour from of the frequency of trains. it is an hourfrom littleborough, of the frequency of trains. it is an hour from littleborough, it of the frequency of trains. it is an hourfrom littleborough, it is of the frequency of trains. it is an hour from littleborough, it is easy to park and it is a cheaperfare than going from my local station. the fares are cheaper. how bad can your commute be on certain days?m can be terrible. last year, for example, i counted 43 continuous journeys that i attempted to go on which were either delayed or cancelled. that is 43 times in a row and that is unacceptable. that is really poor service. will it make any difference if the government ta kes any difference if the government takes over the running of it or if

northern or the owners have some sort of short—term management contract? i don't see that happening. there has been a lack of investment in the last 15 years, we are putting up with very old trains, trains that come with only two carriages on peak time travel. this morning i was on peak time travel at eight o'clock and the train was already full and people were standing on the journey to manchester. why have two carriages ona manchester. why have two carriages on a peak—time service? i don't see that happening straightaway. if the government take over, they have got to make sure that we have more carriages, more trains available on peak times. vicki, you say you are often in a bad mood by the time you get into the office because of your horrific commute. talk us through a typical morning. it is horrendous. if yourtrain typical morning. it is horrendous. if your train turns up. many times theyjust cancel if your train turns up. many times they just cancel them and if your train turns up. many times theyjust cancel them and there is no explanation. it just

theyjust cancel them and there is no explanation. itjust disappears off the board. if it turns up, again we have got two carriages and by the time it gets to middleton people are crammed in so much. if you do get on the train it is so uncomfortable because you are jammed in. everybody is on top of each other and you are hot and bothered. by the time you get to work you are not wanting to face a day plus mat work because you are that frustrated and it does put you ina are that frustrated and it does put you in a bad mood. it is not a great way to start the day. then you know you have got to do it all again going home at night. christina, you have had a really positive experience. tell us about saturday and had the staff went above and beyond at northern will stop we spontaneously decided to travel to manchester on saturday and when we got there i hadn't booked disabled facilities, which i had done in the

past. i had my husband with me and i thought if there is anything wrong, he can get into the carriage and help me. but when i got there the guy behind the desk was really good and he went straight to the platform and he went straight to the platform and he went straight to the platform and he got the ramps out ready on the train and made sure i was near another passenger in a wheelchair because we were getting off at the same station, so it made it easier for us to get off at the same time. when we got off at manchester straightaway there was somebody there with a ramp and got off the train and there were no delays or problems. it was a new train, there we re problems. it was a new train, there were several carriages, everybody had somewhere to sit. coming home we had somewhere to sit. coming home we had not booked either for the disabled assistant and we just went to the platform and there was a lady with a vest and the little handset thing and what have you, and she was saying she had been doing training with staff over the last fortnight. she had had a good 30 staff that had

been doing ramp training. that is good to hear. robert nisbet is a spokesperson for the rail delivery group, the umbrella organisation. why is northern so terrible? let's put this in context. no, why is northern so terrible?” put this in context. no, why is northern so terrible? i would disagree it is terrible. there have been challenges and the challenges you have to put in context. there has been under investment, as we heard from one of your guests. there has been delayed infrastructure. the franchise was let on the promise of infrastructure being delivered which did not turn up. it was late or delayed. are the poor service is anything to do with northern, or is it to do with other organisations? where northern has made mistakes it has apologised for those. you have not let me finish all of the context, which is rolling stock which they were expecting at a

certain time was also delayed. there has been a problem with industrial relations which has affected sunday travel and overtime payments. those are the contexts. we are northern has been struggling with issues such as driver training they have apologised, but you have to see the context within that. then the positive, and it is good to hear positives, especially about the new rolling stock, 52 out of 101 new trains have been delivered. you have just said from northern's point of view it is nothing to do with us, but when it is we apologise. that is the consolation? i am saying there are systemic issues in the industry that need to be resolved. we are not saying it is perfect and it is not right that we are hearing the stories from passengers and we apologise when they have bad journeys. in january we saw another 2.796 journeys. in january we saw another 2.7% increase in fares, but the

service is getting progressively worse. that is a matter for government, half of the fares are set by government and not us. we wa nt to set by government and not us. we want to see fundamental reform that will change franchises that will also bring about proper reform in fa res also bring about proper reform in fares and bring it into with the way we live our lives today and we want the government to deliver the white paper to make the industry work better. that is the end of the programme. thank you very much, all of you. we will see what happens when the transport secretary makes his decision today. good luck vicky and simon and christine. thank you for your company, we are back tomorrow at ten. across england and wales we have got some sunny spells at the moment, the cloud is thicker the further north you go. that is an example of wakefield this morning. a bit of cloud in the sky. it will increase

gradually across england and wales and move into cumbria and lancashire. this rain is moving its way through central and southern scotland. a bit of snow on higher ground. temperature is not quite as low as they were yesterday. about 8-12. low as they were yesterday. about 8—12. some outbreaks of rain tonight in scotland, clouding over and there will be missed and fog into tomorrow morning. a fairly mild start compared to recent morning. a frost free and ice free start to thursday with rain still in scotland. a bit of rain at times in southern areas of rain at times in southern areas of england and south wales in the morning. still quite cloudy. a mile day, temperatures 10—13.

you're watching bbc newsroom live, it's11am, and these are the main stories this morning: british citizens flown from wuhan in china will be put into quarantine for two weeks when they return to the uk as a precaution against the spread of the coronavirus. it comes as british airways suspends all but essential flights to and from mainland china following advice from the foreign office. after years of delays and cancellations, a decision is expected over the future of the northern railfranchise. it's late every day. half of them don't turn up. some days you just can't get on and it's shocking. and, like, when it comes to summer, people are fainting on the trains as well because it's so overcrowded and hot. a bbc investigation finds more than 4,000 seriously ill pateints