hello, it's thursday, it's ten o'clock, i'm joanna gosling and we're live from new broadcasting house. scotland's finance secretary derek mackay has resigned with immediate effect after allegations emerged that he sent hundreds of messages to a 16—year—old boy. it could not have come at a worse time for scotland's finance secretary derek mackay, on the day of his budget announcement. it emerges that he has sent hundreds of text to a teenage boy. this programme has learned of dozens of cases where women who thought they were having a "complete mesh removal" found that some of the material that had been causing them debilitating pain had been left behind. we'll talk to two women who say they both had complications following their vaginal

mesh removal operations. and we'll talk to charlie gard's mum and dad, who are calling for a change in the law to stop parents like them battling doctors in court about decisions on the care of their sick children. chris gard and connie yates have been campaigning for "charlie's law" since their baby's death in 2017. and tomorrow it reaches the house of lords. hi. welcome to the programme. we're live until 11 this morning. dojoin our conversation this morning. are you a parent with strong views on why it might be that girls do better than boys at school? secondary school league tables are out today and they're expoected to show a significant gender gap in exam results. and we've got an update on our ongoing investigations into the impact of vaginal mesh on patients —

a story first brought to our attention by you at home, so as always, your voices are very welcome on that. use the hashtag #victorialive. first, the news. scotland's finance secretary derek mackay has resigned with immediate effect after allegations emerged that he sent hundreds of messages to a 16—year—old boy. in a statement issued this morning, derek mackay said he took, "full responsibility" for his actions and that he had behaved foolishly. he added, "i am truly sorry. i apologise unreservedly to the individual involved and his family." the government wants emergency legislation ending the automatic release of convicted terrorists rushed through parliament in less than three weeks. ministers are said to be concerned about a shopkeeperfrom sunderland — mohammed zahir khan — who is due to be freed at the end of the month. he was jailed for posting messages

supporting the islamic state group, and calling for shia muslims to be burnt alive. the white house says president trump has been fully vindicated and exonerated by his acquittal at his impeachment trial. senators voted along party lines in the republican—dominated chamber, and prosecutors failed to gain the two thirds majority necessary to convict mr trump on the charges of abuse of power and obstruction of congress. the democratic minority leader, chuck schumer, said the acquittal was without value as the republicans had refused to allow any witnesses. more than 560 people in mainland china have now died as a result of the new coronavirus. the number of people infected has reached 28,000. stringent measures are being taken across the country to restrict the spread of the disease. in the uk there are stilljust two confirmed cases, but some people in britain's chinese community say they‘ re being treated with fear, suspicion or even hostility

this programme has learned of dozens of cases where women who thought they were having a "complete mesh removal" found that some of the material that had been causing them debilitating pain had been left behind. in some cases, women say they paid more than 10,000 in some cases, women say they paid more than £10,000 for the removal and their condition then got worse, not better. mesh removal is extremely complicated — and specialist surgeons say partial removals can be beneficial and can help resolve complications. secondary school league tables are out today, where schools up and down the country are ranked based on the gcse and a—level results of their students. bbc analysis shows england's school boys have been performing worse than girls for a third of a century. the information, published by the department for education, takes last year's exam results down to school level. the hollywood legend, kirk douglas, has died at the age of 103. i'm spartacus! perhaps best remembered

for the 1960 classic spartacus, kirk douglas's acting career spanned six decades and he made more than 80 films. he secured three 0scar nominations for best actor, and in 1996 was awarded an honorary oscar for lifetime achievement. back to you, joanna. back to you, joanna. sorry i called you victoria! we can all be victoria. scotland's finance secretary has quit hours before delivering his budget over claims he messaged a 16—year—old boy on social media. the scottish sun reported that derek mackay contacted the boy over a six—month period, and told him that he was "cute". mr mackay said he had "behaved foolishly" and took full responsibility for his actions. let's get more from our correspondent james shaw in glasgow. what can you tell us? what we know from the account of the story that appears in the scottish edition of the sun is that these exchanges

began about six months ago, or last august. it happened out of the blue. derek mackay contacted this 16—year—old boy, initially on instagram and facebook, and initiated conversations which the boy did respond to. but over the course of that six month period, he was making suggestions that they should go to a rugby game together, that he should come out leafleting with mr mackay and then that they should have dinner, or that he should have dinner, or that he should go to a reception for the scottish rugby union at the scottish parliament. so i sort of invitation for there to be a relationship between the two of them, a 42—year—old man and a 16—year—old boy. later during the course of these conversations, at one point mr mackay does say, having seen a photo of the boy with a new haircut, he describes him as looking cute and asks whether he minds having confluence. the boy says he doesn't, and then mr mackay suggests that

perhaps some of these messages should be deleted. as we have heard, mr mackay has apologised unreservedly and described his behaviour as foolish. but some people have gone further than that. the leader of the scottish conservatives has described what derek mackay was doing as grooming. that is how he sees it and that's obviously a serious way of looking at what happened. it is certainly the case that mr mackay has paid a price. he has resigned as a scottish government ministerfor price. he has resigned as a scottish government minister for conduct that he himself has described as foolish. is that going to be the end of it? it is hard to see that it will be. i think there will be repercussions for the scottish government and the snp more widely. today, mr mackay will not be able to deliver his budget statement, the most important

pa rt budget statement, the most important part of his political year, scottish government spending for the next four years, which is important to local authorities and all departments. that will not happen, but will be done by a junior minister. in the long term, there is a question as to what happens to who does mr mackay‘s role. this will cause serious waves within the scottish government and perhaps within the snp as well. they will be attempting to limit the damage as much as they can and hope it can be isolated. but it is probably too early to say what the impact will be for the scottish government and the scottish national party. thank you, james. this programme has learned of dozens of cases where women who thought they were having a "complete mesh removal" found that some of the material that had been causing them debilitating pain had been left behind. in some cases, women say they paid more than £10,000 for the removal and their condition then got worse, not better. mesh removal is extremely complicated — and specialist

surgeons say partial removals can be beneficial and can help resolve complications. 0ur reporter anna collinson has been investigating complications linked to vaginal mesh repairs for nearly three years — anna, can you start by reminding our audience about this story? it has been a constantly unfolding story. remind us what this is about. most surgical mesh is made from a plastic called polypropylene and it is used to repair damaged or weakened tissue. in the uk, there have been more than 100,000 women who have had vaginal mesh repairs, often to retreat prolapse or incontinence. and the majority suffer no side effects, but around one in ten can experience complications which can include chronic pain, difficulty walking, not being able to work or have sex, and that is something we have covered a lot on this programme. currently, the use of vaginal mesh is suspended on the nhs, except in exceptional circumstances. so the

women who are experiencing complications and then looking to get the mesh removed, what have some of them told you is happening?” have spoken to several women, but they have also spoken to dozens of women who say that when they have experienced these complications, they have gone to their surgeon and they have gone to their surgeon and they say the surgeon has said that they say the surgeon has said that they can give them a full or com plete they can give them a full or complete mesh removal. so they have gone through with the up and then afterwards they have still had complications and in some cases, they have been worse off than before. they have good then go gone for a second opinion to another surgeon for a second opinion to another surgeon who has then been able to see via scans that there is still mesh in their body. some of these women have paid more than £10,000. i heard of a case where a woman paid up heard of a case where a woman paid up to £24,000 for a removal, and these are sometimes women who don't have jobs these are sometimes women who don't havejobs and these are sometimes women who don't have jobs and can't work. the these are sometimes women who don't havejobs and can't work. the person who is leading an inquiry into vaginal mesh, baroness cumberlidge, says this issue is a concern. they

don't know how many women are affected by this and they are looking to the nhs for more detail. this morning, a member of the scottish parliament got in touch. he contacted me to say he has seen evidence from several women who say surgeons said they would receive a full or complete mesh removal. msp neil finlay says he has written to nicola sturgeon, asking her to call the general medical council to look at this matter. could this be a communication issue between surgeons and their patients? that is the suggestion from some experts. it is very much the surgeon's responsibility to make sure that patients are fully informed about surgery patients are fully informed about surgery before it happens and afterwards. women i have spoken to say they have been on this horrible journey and that when they say they we re journey and that when they say they were promised this full mesh removal, they thought thatjenny was over. to then discover that they we re over. to then discover that they were not mesh free is extremely distressing for them. baroness

cumberlidge says surgeons need to be 100% clear with patients. for example, a partial removal can also be called a full vaginal removal, which is very confusing. she says surgeons must be certain that patients are aware of that, and her tea m patients are aware of that, and her team will have mortify on this when the review is released next month. how difficult is it to get all the mesh out? it is extremely difficult. 0nce mesh out? it is extremely difficult. once it is implanted, it is difficult to remove. 0ne surgeon has compared it to removing hairfrom chewing gum, it is that complicated. nhs england is said to have started the process of establishing specialised mesh removal centres and it is hoped that that will lead to more surgeons who have this specialist expertise in this area. we have spoken to the work of obstetricians and gynaecologists about this, and they said, we take each competition caused by mesh very seriously, some of which can have a devastating effect on women's lives. it is essential that women with

complications related to mesh receive timely and comprehensive support and care from a multidisciplinary team of health ca re multidisciplinary team of health care professionals in a specialist unit. women can either suffer or be referred by their gp to any of their specialist centres across the country. the college also stresses that while total or partial removal may be recommended, in some cases that may not be the best thing. women need to be informed properly about all the options including the benefits and risks so they can make the best decision about their care. and if there are any complications, they are supposed to report it to they are supposed to report it to the regulator, the mhra. well, joining us now is a woman who has been affected this — we're not identifying her for legal reasons. "leila" — not her real name —

says her surgeon promised her a "full mesh removal" but was shocked when she was told more than 10cm of mesh had been left behind. take us back to the problems you had with the mesh from the start.” take us back to the problems you had with the mesh from the start. i had the mesh implanted several years ago for a the mesh implanted several years ago fora minor the mesh implanted several years ago for a minor stress urinary incontinence. and i woke from surgery incontinence. and i woke from surgery with chronic pain in my groin, my legs and my hips. so i knew immediately that i had a problem. and when i saw my implanting surgeon a couple of months post—the surgery, i was told that there can often be muscle damage after the surgery, so we would wait a period of time to see whether that result. a year later, i was told that it was likely that i had experienced nerve damage or potentially other nerve damage. when i asked what could be done and i asked, could it be removed from my body, i found out asked, could it be removed from my body, ifound out then asked, could it be removed from my body, i found out then that it was not possible. i was offered a solution of either cutting the mesh or taking solution of either cutting the mesh ortaking a

solution of either cutting the mesh or taking a partial section out of the mesh, but was told it was unlikely to lead to any resolution of my pain. so i knew then that i needed the whole of the mesh removed. it was clear in my mind that i need to do that, but when i askedif that i need to do that, but when i asked if there was a surgeon who could do that, i was told no, which was absolutely distressing. a year later, by scanning the internet and reading different blogs, i came across a surgeon who reading different blogs, i came across a surgeon who claimed they we re across a surgeon who claimed they were able to remove mesh fully from the body. i spoke to my gp, who had followed my journey and the body. i spoke to my gp, who had followed myjourney and being kind in supporting with my suffering, and made a referral immediately. and the first question i asked was, can this must be removed fully? and i was assured that it was possible and i had been told untruths that it wasn't possible to remove the mesh.

were there any caveats to that? none whatsoever. so you went in believing you would come out of the surgery with no mesh inside you. totally. i was told it would be a two stage removal and that after the second stage, i would removal and that after the second stage, iwould have removal and that after the second stage, i would have had the mesh fully removed. so i signed up to this surgeon. i went through with the first removal. they are major surgeries. women take months to recover from them. i was well supported afterwards, but i had a very difficult experience. many women do. lots of pain afterwards, needed huge support from my family and children. so it is notjust the women who go through this, it is their whole family and friends. it's a massive deal. then i went through the second surgery, having already experienced a difficult time in the five or six month recovery after the first one, and went through a similar experience recovering after

the second surgery, having been told it was completely removed. me and my family rejoiced, thinking that chapter of several years of my life of suffering was going to be over. but within a few months, the pain began to return in my groin and throughout the years, i have begun to experience increasing allergies and a number of symptoms like all over body pain, problems with my eyesight, problems with my teeth and gums, weird, unusual skin problems, a range of different things which many would never associate with an allergic reaction to plastic. but so many women are talking about them that they must be associated. and these things just didn't get better. in fact, i these things just didn't get better. infact, i began these things just didn't get better. in fact, i began to get worse. i felt more tired, more sick and my allergy specialist suggested, to my horror, that i might potentially have some mesh left and i should

urgently go and seek a scan to check. which of course i did, and the horror when they told me, i can't describe. i went into such shock that for weeks, i didn't want to talk about it. my whole world turned upside down because i had been seeking jobs for the first time in two years and i had just found a job, and! in two years and i had just found a job, and i had to turn down that opportunity because i knew i would need more surgery. opportunity because i knew i would need more surgery. but thankfully, i have an amazing family and friends who said they would help me find somebody who was honest and had integrity and who had the skill who

i could basically grill, because i would never trust anyone again without doing extensive research that i ended up doing before finding another surgeon who i would trust. i literally e—mailed every woman possible through every facebook group who mentioned any surgeons they had had good experiences with. and i spent weeks messaging people and asking for feedback on different surgeons all around the globe, not just the uk, and got feedback from dozens just the uk, and got feedback from d oze ns of just the uk, and got feedback from dozens of women before i made my decision about which surgeon to trust. i shared my medical notes with this person and they confirmed that i had only had a partial removal and i had only had the piece of mesh that sits behind the urethra

removed. and it was not clear how much i had had removed in that first and second surgery, possibly only five to eight centimetres. then i began to find out how long these meshes really are. i had been told they shrink, so small pieces of mesh we re they shrink, so small pieces of mesh were acceptable to be found when you remove them. but in fact, i was told that when you have removed thousands of these meshes, it becomes clear that they might shrink a little bit but actually, the length of the mesh can be 20 plus centimetres on average removed from most women. so then i realised i had extensive amounts of mesh still left in my body. so i was told it was with between 15 and 20 centimetres, but it depends how large you are as a woman, how large your hips are, a whole range of things. so every case is different and when the mesh was put in, nobody was instructed to

ta ke put in, nobody was instructed to take the measurements of how much mesh was cut off and what the original size of the mesh was. there are so many unknowns original size of the mesh was. there are so many unknowns that it is difficult to give assurances to women as to how much to expect to remove. this is why there is so much confusion over whether you have had a complete removal or not. and you say there were no caveats given to you prior to the surgery. we cannot name the surgeon, but have you had subsequent conversations and an explanation? i have had subsequent conversations and it became clear that the type of mesh i had was one of the most difficult to remove and actually, they were frightened to remove this type of mesh because it can cause significant nerve damage if not done properly. those conversations were not had with me at the beginning and ifeel very let down by that. i have lost a huge amount of trust in a surgeon that i really trusted. i really cared that they were going to do their best for

me. honestly, ithink they were going to do their best for me. honestly, i think some of the surgeons believe they are doing their best, but i'm not informing women of what their skill set is, they are doing more harm emotionally to women who might have made a different choice if they had known what was available to them. it is the same situation as putting mesh and in the first place. if we had been fully informed of the risks, we could have made an informed decision about what was happening. that was the point of the montgomeryjudgment in 2015 about all patients being given informed consent before surgery given informed consent before surgery and before any medical treatment. as we have heard on this programme many times, you are not alone. we arejoined now by programme many times, you are not alone. we are joined now by another person similarly affected on the line. it is fiona, which is also not her real name. she says the complications she experienced following her vaginal mesh repair left her feeling suicidal. fiona, you also went for a removal and you believed all the mesh was coming up.

what happened with you? unfortunately, within six months i needed to have it removed. i also researched trying to find the right surgeon researched trying to find the right surgeon for me, and this person was highly recommended. when you are in so highly recommended. when you are in so much trauma with pain and feeling so so much trauma with pain and feeling so ill, you put a lot of trust in somebody because it takes a lot to find that person as there are not enough surgeons in this country to help you. so when you find that person, you feel overwhelmed and you trust them 100% and you put your life in their hands that they will make you better. i went for my surgery make you better. i went for my surgery and from that day until now, i have never spoken or seen this person again. my partner was amazing. he paid for me privately for this surgery, and i began to

have a lot of complications quite soon have a lot of complications quite soon after the removal. is this person had written to my gp and said it was a complete removal, i then couldn't get any help and was hitting brick walls. i still felt poorly, i still had the same symptoms. i couldn't understand what was happening, and this letter of complete removal made my life very hard. even after the removal, complete removal made my life very hard. even afterthe removal, i complete removal made my life very hard. even after the removal, ifelt suicidal because i was still feeling the same. i was fortunate that we travelled all over the uk to get scans and find somebody else who would say what was wrong, because they kept blaming it on nerve damage. when they say you have nerve damage, you automatically assume that it means numb, so there is no feeling. but nerve damage actually

means a lot of pain and other symptoms. that was what they were blaming this on. so when i found a surgeon blaming this on. so when i found a surgeon two blaming this on. so when i found a surgeon two years blaming this on. so when i found a surgeon two years after my removal to state that this was not a full removal, the feelings of being let down go through the roof. and you feel betrayed all over again. so now you have this new person saying you have mesh left and then you have to trust the new person. that is coming through from both of you so strongly, this feeling of being let down. in both of you have been on a solitary mission, apart from support groups, trying to find the right people to get hold of. i want to read your statement from the roe couege read your statement from the roe college of obstetricians and gynaecologists. . they say the rcog

ta kes gynaecologists. . they say the rcog takes every day seriously, some of which can have a devastating effect on women's lives. it is essential that women with complications related to mesh receive support from a multidisciplinary team of health ca re a multidisciplinary team of health care professionals. women can self refer or be referred by their gp to any specialist centres across the country. how do you respond to that statement? can ijust say something? where are these specialist centres? please pinpoint where these centres are. the statement does go on to say that there is a list of specialist units available on the british society of your gynaecology and the british association of urological surgeons websites. but you think there has not been enough support. if you speak to all of the people with this problem, when you go to

yourgp, first of with this problem, when you go to your gp, first of all, they don't believe you. my second removal specialist, i had to self refer as my gp wouldn't even refer me. so if there are these specialist units around, how come your first port of call, your gp, doesn't even know or recognise that there are somewhere for you to go? and how much has this cost you ? for you to go? and how much has this cost you? we are looking at £12,000 at the moment and i am looking to have the rest removed. my bladder is now stuck to my pubic bone and i have other complications, so this is going to cost may be another £20,000 because i don't know who to go to and who to trust. it is a lot of money. and it's notjust the money, it is the massive effect it has on your whole family. your life becomes mesh, and you don't want it to become mesh. it is so restricting on your everyday life, just for a

simple walk. i can't walk unaided for long periods of time. that is not quality—of—life. and when you have had a removal, iwasn't not quality—of—life. and when you have had a removal, i wasn't told these things. if a surgeon you go to cannot remove all of your mesh, please just tell us. please give us the facts and don't hide behind each other and cover—up. it is covered up from the top to the bottom of society. sorry to interrupt. we are hearing this loud and clear from both of you about the impact of this. can i add, it is also about outcomes. it is fine to have met removal centres, but who has said that these people are qualified at removing every type of mesh? and how do the commissioners and the nhs determine whether the surgeons are telling the truth that they can

remove these meshes and do it fully? until there are outcome measures monitored for all the women who have had mesh removal or have had scans following their surgeries to identify whether they still have mesh, you can't determine the quality of the skill of each of those surgeons claiming to be a mesh removal surgeon. those surgeons claiming to be a mesh removal surgeon. people at home are getting in touch with similar experiences. 0ne says after my mesh was removed, my medical notes stated i had full removal of mesh. a couple of years ago i had a private cannon that showed i still had a lot of mesh inside me. after everything we have been through, it is very upsetting. another says, i have been told the mesh was all out. after i deep, found i had a partial. surgeon light. thank you for your comments and thank you both are talking to us. this is a story we have been able to cover because some of you at home have got in touch. it is a

story we have stayed with over three yea rs. coming up later in the programme... plans for a new "breathing space" period for people in severe debt — we'll talk to someone who owed tens of thousands of pounds on her credit card to find out what she thinks about the idea. and we speak to the parents of charlie gard about the new law to help parents of terminally ill children have more power over their hospital care and spend less time in court. this the white house has said the outcome of the impeachment trial in the us senate is a "full vindication and exoneration" of president trump. senators voted almost entirely along party lines, and prosecutors failed to gain the two thirds majority necessary to convict mr trump and remove him from office. he will become the first impeached president to seek re—election. democrats charged mr trump in december with pressuring ukraine to smear a potential white house rival.

in his speech following his aquittal president trump focused on the economy. jobs are booming, incomes are soaring, poverty is plummeting, crime is falling, confidence is surging, and our country is thriving and highly respected again. elex michaelson is the anchor of the issue is, which broadcasts nightly on fox affiliate channel 11 across california. hejoins me now from los angeles. it is not a surprise he has been cleared but what are your thoughts on the legacies of this? good morning. it is a historic moment in america. it's something we all pretty much predicted, that he would be acquitted. the interesting moment nobody saw coming was what mitt romney did. mitt romney was the republican nominee to be president

in 2012, the last republican nominee to be president other than donald trump. back then the republican party was behind him spending hundreds of millions to get him elected president, threw him a big convention. he came out against president trump saying what he did was wrong, immoral, against national security and that president trump should be thrown out of office. this was not something the white house saw coming. the interesting thing as well, mitt romney is completely out on an island on this by himself. he knows he is, he knows he's going to get a lot of criticism from the party and a lot of criticism from the president and his allies and yet he did it anyway because he said it was the moral thing to do. you talk about the criticism that's going to be coming his way, there has already been some on the president's twitter

account. he put out a video accusing him of being an undercover democrat agent. mitt romney had us fooled. having his endorsement is a delight. posing asa his endorsement is a delight. posing as a republican he tried to infiltrate trump's administration as secretary of state. now his cover is blown. exposed by news reports as a democrat secret asset. barack obama will be re—elected. .. democrat secret asset. barack obama will be re-elected... the democrat secret asset. barack obama will be re-elected. .. the president has come back fighting against any of his critics. in the end, what does this due to his re—election hopes? might it strengthen him? mitt romney has been a republican for his whole life, donald trump endorsed him to be president, endorsed him

for his run as utah senator. it's interesting to see some of that. what does this do for re—election? it looks like it's helping right now. his poll numbers are at a record high, he said 49% approval, 5196 record high, he said 49% approval, 51% disapproval. he is completely unified the republican base other than mitt romney apparently. his fundraising numbers are way up because of this. we saw this when bill clinton was impeached, it actually helped him in terms of his popularity. he wasn't able to run but right now the republicans are behind donald trump and the democrats are in this away. we had this incident in iowa which was a total mess. the president right now is looking good but what you really look into the numbers and you spend time on the campaign trail, impeachment is not the animating issue for most people. most people

are more focused on health care, the economy, climate change. it will be interesting to think months down the line, so many news cycles to go, whether impeachment is something people will even be thinking about in november. thank you. we speak to the parents of charlie guard about the new law to help parents of terminally ill children have more power over their hospital care and spend less time in court. today's secondary school league tables have revealed that boys in england have had worse exam results that girls for a third of a century. we take a look at the difference in results and discuss why boys are lagging behind. tell us know if you have any thoughts on that. the government has announced

the introduction of a new 60—day "breathing space" period for those who find themselves with severe debt problems. it means people wouldn't be charged fees or contacted by debt collectors, and interest would be frozen, to stop the problem getting worse. but do the measures go far enough? we can speak now to caroline siarkiewicz, who is the chief executive of the money and pensions service — which is sponsored by the department of work and pensions — and selene jordan, who accumulated 23k of credit card debt whilst in her 20s. thank you forjoining us. tell us why you went into debt and how easy it was. it was foolishness. i needed a new bed, i wanted a new guitar, just things that i could get easily and it was too easy. i had all these invitations coming through my pa rents invitations coming through my parents letterbox. invitations coming through my pa rents letterbox. for invitations coming through my parents letterbox. for a long time they went real, i didn't consider them as real and i thought let's see what happens if i feel the sin and this in and then i got all of this

free money but wasn't real to me. at what point did you panic?” free money but wasn't real to me. at what point did you panic? i was a few years in and my mum opened one of my statements and came charging into my room. she sent my dad in, actually. what is this, what's happening? it was at that point i had to face what i had done and i was about £17,000 in debt at the time and that was the only reason why i faced it. how hard was it to get out of debt? 0bviously why i faced it. how hard was it to get out of debt? obviously the interest payments, it's not straightforward about paying down the initial amount. i had a few credit cards as well as loans and an overdraft which kept being offered even though i already owed so much over different cards. i don't know what it was that was the breaking point or caused me to say, actually, i have to face it. sorry, i forgotten the question.” i have to face it. sorry, i forgotten the question. i wondered how difficult it was to get out of

debt. it was hard because the interest was so much on each card andi interest was so much on each card and i was taking from one credit ca rd to and i was taking from one credit card to pay the other and then to pay off the loan. i then lost myjob and became redundant. it was impossible, it was basically impossible. i was onjobseekers' allowa nce impossible. i was onjobseekers' allowance and as most people will know, that doesn't actually give you enough to go through life let alone pay off your bills. becoming redundant was actually a blessing because i then came upon an organisation called christians against poverty and they acted as a barrier between my creditors and myself and helped me put me on a payment plan and saw me through the end. 0k. now the government is introducing a breeding period to help people like you who got into debt. caroline can tell us all about it. how would it work? good morning.

we really welcome this change to help people struggling with debt. it's really interesting that your guest talks about how easy it was to build up that debt and then trigger that makes things fall into crisis. 0ne that makes things fall into crisis. one of the things that is really important is to talk about your situation, to take some advice and get someone to help you, work your way through. we note people who go for debt advice start to take back control, they re pay for debt advice start to take back control, they repay their debts and start sleeping again and it improves their financial well— being. start sleeping again and it improves their financial well-being. this new idea is about helping people who find themselves with a severe problem. it is classified as severe? the thing about struggling with debts as we ask people on an annual basis, at three months behind with their payments? that feels like a real problem for people who can't make their payments. also, do they

feel it is a heavy burden? 0ne make their payments. also, do they feel it is a heavy burden? one of the things about struggling with debt is we know the impact it has on an individual. they start to struggle with their relationships, they feel ashamed that they got into this difficulty and they really want to be able to find someone who can help them work their way through to get to a better, stronger fitting where they are back in control. the 60 day breathing space, is that enough? one of the things we know when people are struggling with debt as they start to ignore the letters and the bills coming in. they try and the bills coming in. they try and hide. there is this feeling of being completely overwhelmed. it does take time to actually work through and find a solution to get out of the situation they are in. the business of stopping the interest charges and fees is going to help people stop, take a breath and worked through with a professional adviser who will give them free independent impartial advice and help them work through

the situation. 60 days is really important because it will help them to stop, take a breath and know the situation won't get worse and they can start to work through it. there will be people at home watching in this position feeling overwhelmed by the situation they can't control. he said for you the moment came when your parents opened a letter and you are effectively outed. what advice would you give people a time? whether you are outed or you just actually say i'm going to take responsibility, it is one thing to be open about it and another thing to get help. a lot of people think, what i did was, i kept it to myself and it's my problem and i'm going to deal with it on my own. even though i knew i couldn't, i didn't have enough money, my income didn't match what i had spent. so, you have to own up to what you've done and go and get help, that is basically it. citizens advice bureau, i went to

them first before i went to cap and they have templates for letters to write to your creditors saying, can you help me. i went to my bank, some helped and some didn't. there is so much out there like cap and other organisations. the first point is to admit what you've done, take responsibility and go and get help. thank you. just before we talk to our next guests, i want to let you know that next week, we're going to be bringing the labour leadership candidates together with some of you — for our live audience debate. the audience will be made up of labour party members and those who have traditionally voted labour, but didn't at the last election. if you are interested in being part of our labour leadership audience on february 13th, please send your details to... victoria@bbc.co.uk on friday, measures to improve the often heart—breaking situation parents of children with life—limiting illnessses can find themselves in. this has been in the spotlight

recently with the cases of charlie gard, whose parents battled with doctors in court to keep alive. and tafida raqeeb whose life support machine was kept on after her mum and dad won a smiliar case in the high court. the so—called "charlie's law" would help avoid otherfamilies being taken to court. we can talk now to baroness finlay, who's bringing forward her proposed new law in the house of lords on friday. and also with us are charlie's parents chris and connie. welcome. i know it has been a long, ha rd battle for you welcome. i know it has been a long, hard battle for you both. how are you feeling about the prospect of this becoming law? it's good, we've been working on this for over two yea rs been working on this for over two years and we've got the backing of many senior people. we've spoken to professors of ethics and got their backing and senior politicians and doctors themselves, other parents. we are trying to find a way to come together and prevent cases going to court in future. it's been a long road but i feel like we are

hopefully getting somewhere now and preventing people going through what we went through. we were plunged into something unimaginable, you had a son who was in a very serious health condition and you found yourself having to fight the doctors. what was that like? he died before he was one and for much of his life you were fighting with those who were caring for him. i'm sure many people would agree there's not many worse things in life than losing a child. when you've got a child with a life limiting disease and being taken to court at the same time, it doesn't get any more distressing. we know as we've been through it that we've got to try and find a way of making it better for everybody, not just for parents. find a way of making it better for everybody, notjust for parents. it seems like we were two parents who lost a court case and the law needs to change but i think everyone has seen something needs to change, including former heads of the bma and so on. it's about finding a way

that's better for parents and doctors. i'm sure doctors would prefer to be on wards doing their job rather than preparing witness statements and attending court. it's about finding something that's better for everybody that doesn't go against the best interests of the child. what could have made it better for you? mediation is a major pa rt of better for you? mediation is a major part of this bill because we asked for mediation and it was refused. the very least it would have done for us would have been, as charlie's parents it felt like at the time that whatever we said it didn't matter. me and connie have not got medical degrees so it was kind of, you don't know what you're talking about. whereas with mediation, the least it would have done is made us feel like we had a voice, what we said matted and it'sjust something that we feel needs to be done. —— what we said matters. you've got this bill going through, charlie's law. why did you feel it's so important to do that? well, the part

of the bill is part of a whole package of access to palliative care for people, wherever they are, that's all ages. when you have this very distressing situation of the child who can't speak for themselves and the parents are trying to represent what they view as the child's wishes and feelings and their values, and they feel they aren't being listened to, that compounds their anguish and it makes it more difficult for people to make good decisions. are you surprised they were refused mediation? you got mediation but in the end it was right at the end. we got it in july but we asked for it before the court case started and it was refused.“ people are beginning to diverge then there is a communication problem emerging and at that point you need to say, how do we improve communication and understanding on both sides? how do we develop trust

ain? both sides? how do we develop trust again? that is where mediation should come on really early, not late. once people have diverged, they've ta ken fixed late. once people have diverged, they've taken fixed points and views and that conflict doesn't help anybody. it doesn't help clinicians either. what would your building? -- what would the new law do?“ either. what would your building? -- what would the new law do? it would require that wherever the child is being looked after must be offered mediation early when there is a dispute emerging. when that happens, for mediation to work well of course, for mediation to work well of course , you for mediation to work well of course, you need the information and parents would need information shared with them without having to fight for it, to know what the results are from investigations and so on. but also, but their views are taken into account, notjust so on. but also, but their views are taken into account, not just the medical views but their perspective of the child, what the child is responding to, what they view as the child's feelings and wishes. it

wouldn't change the concept of a best interest but it would say that what is really in the child's best interest as a whole human being goes wider than the clinical view. how important was it to you to feel like you had done everything you could do? that's all you can wish for, as a parent of a sick child you need to know you've done everything you can. we still live with that. i know at the time we did everything we could but i strongly feel that if we could go back and if i knew now, if i knew then what i know now, then things would be different. i still feel guilty, i still feel bad and that i could have done more. he went to court. i know. we were taken to court, we didn't want to. all they wa nted court, we didn't want to. all they wanted was to give our son a trial

of medication that wasn't going to harm him for three months and it would have cost £1000 a month. in the end we had to raise the money to get him to america and in the end we went allowed to take him. so, everything was set up, it was a reputable hospital, one of the best in the world in new york. we had the plane set up, he was fit to fly, there was nothing preventing us but then suddenly we went allowed to ta ke then suddenly we went allowed to take him. we think parents, as long as they are not harming their children, should be able to give them that opportunity to get better. we were told it would be a 58% chance of working. i don't know who wouldn't want to try that. how important is it to you both emotionally to see this law come in? it is massive for charlie's legacy. one thing we are passionate about is making sure that charlie's legacy is a positive one. we received a lot of negativity because we were up

against a children's hospital. we wa nt against a children's hospital. we want his legacy to be a positive one and if we can prevent one family going through what we went through in court, thenjob done. it's so important to us because we've had a child with a life limiting illness and we've lost him butjust going through the hell of the courts, we need to try and do anything we can to avoid that. it's not good for anyone, the patient, the family or the doctors or the judges. they've got to make difficult decisions. if we can find any way of stopping going to court then it will be done and we think charlie's law does that. people getting in touch. they facebook says, unless someone has been through this themselves they can't understand the pain the family has gone luna says, the law needs to protect medical professionals decisions. pamela says, sorry but we should be allowed to question the establishment when they are making decisions about our children, they don't always get it right.

england's schoolboys have had worse exam results than girls for a third of a century, secondary school league table data just out this morning confirms. girls are now 14% more likely to pass english and maths gcse than boys, with 64% of girls doing so and 56% of boys. fiona mcgrother is a mother to two teenage boys in durham. will mackinstosh is headteacher of arkjohn keats academy. meanwhile, the charity teach first, is calling for change to address the gender gaps found across careers in science, technology, engineering and maths. they want to encourage more girls to pursue these subjects at gcse and beyond. one of the people calling for more girls in science is tv presenter konnie huq, who's new kids book out today is about a girl who loves science. welcome. thank you forjoining us. do you see an obvious decision between boys and girls in the classroom —— distinction. between boys and girls in the classroom -- distinction. we put a

lot of work into making sure every pupil is able to access the key ritalin. we are delighted and the results out this morning. boys make on average two thirds of a grade faster than expected progress across all subjects at our school. it sounds like you are putting special effort into the boys, what is going on with them that they need that?” think it's something going on much more widely, that every people needs a great school, every pupil needs great teachers. we put an enormous amount of thought into how we develop their aspirations. the statistics show that in the same environment girls are doing better than boys. a cross national averages, absolutely and i can only talk from my experience but it's really important to think about the work we can do around raising pupils aspirations, teaching them what options are available to them. all of our pupils visit universities and our taught the traits they need to

succeed in life to help them succeed academically. what is your perspective as a mother of boys?” can speak from that perspective myself. i don't necessarily think it is as much a gender issue as how we socialise our children perhaps. i run an online facebook group and quite often there are discussions about, it'sjust quite often there are discussions about, it's just boys quite often there are discussions about, it'sjust boys and it'sjust girls being girls. whether or not that has an impact i'm not sure. the fa ct that has an impact i'm not sure. the fact the statistics indicate that the 33 years boys haven't been doing as well as girls, it would indicate there is something around gender going on. i know you said it is around socialisation but what is it thatis around socialisation but what is it that is particularly impacting on boys? i don't have any theories but

certainly i think girls, i learned time ago that their brains develop faster and they mature faster than boys do. and possibly that when it comes to revising for tests, it may be girls are slightly further ahead in terms of maturing. being ready to focus and ready to get their heads down and into the books. konnie, your book is about getting girls to do more of the stuff that it is perceived boys are doing. what's interesting, because the statistics show boys are doing as well, but its co nve rse show boys are doing as well, but its converse when it comes to sciences in that girlsjust do not go into sciences as much as boys. there is a real dearth. there is a death across the board in the uk are people going into stem professions but more so with girls. once again it's to do with girls. once again it's to do

with social conditioning and norms, in that there is no female role models on the gcse syllabus, a teach first study found that 49% of people couldn't name a female scientist. women scientists are just less recognised. they are out there. they are out there, my favourite ada lovelace saw that computers had capabilities beyond just being calculators, which is how charles babbage envisaged them. when you think about how we use computers today, smartphones, we use them to make music, draw pictures, that was her foresight that's all that. there's loads of great female scientists but if you don't see represented in all avenues of life, evil close certain doors thinking that isn't for me. —— you will close off certain doors. what is the a nswer off certain doors. what is the answer because these things are getting caught up in gender issues?

there are so many wide—ranging parts to education and they are so interlinked. to me, the fundamental thing we can do is improve the quality of education for all peoples and that will raise the attainment of boys and disadvantaged pupils. one of the main thing is that schools are struggling with is getting enough really great people into be teachers. what about science issue on the curriculum, not a single female scientist? it's outrageous. does that mean girls need to see role models?” outrageous. does that mean girls need to see role models? i think all peoples need to see role models and female scientists have been neglected as part of the gcse specification. i love teaching gcse science. schools can add in their own female role models and mentions of scientists into their lessons and lots of schools did that because they feel passionately about it, but ultimately i think we should be adding female scientists into the

gcse specifications. do we go down the path of gender stereotypes when wondering whether it is uncool for boys to study and they are doing more sport? in my own children, i tried really hard not... you get sucked into these thing sometimes, but in terms of raising my children, i tried very hard not to go down the stereotyping. my eldest child had a pink buggy at school when he was a toddler and i really tried hard, although it's quite difficult sometimes because you are bombarded with the marketing. but yes, i often hear conversations about, girls doing things because they are girls and boys doing things because they are boys. there might be some primal thing going on, i guess, but as parents i think we can begin the

process of making sure that our children are not gender stereotyped from babies upwards. children are born as a blank canvas. they only know what society puts on them. they will react to that. for instance, this book is about a girl that is into science but i was told by publishers, boys don't read books about girls. we are out of time. thank you very much. thank you for your company today. bbc newsroom live is coming up next. have a good day. we had a chilly start with fog around and still quite stubborn to clear away from parts of southern england. the fog in the valley and the sunshine above that, it is quite

a thin layer of fog it will clear and move away. it might stick around into the afternoon across the south but otherwise, plenty of sunshine out there. calmer conditions, temperatures getting up to 7—9. tonight, with this area of high pressure we will see a bit of fog developing. leading towards the east. one weather system moving into northern ireland. on friday, a bit more cloud is moving in. more sunshine to come and temperatures getting up to 6—9. a heads up for the weekend, storm ciara moving in and that will bring strong winds during saturday afternoon through the night and into sunday. if you've got plans over the weekend, stay tuned to the forecast, these winds could bring damaging and disruptive conditions. bye—bye.

you're watching bbc newsroom live. it's11am and these are the main stories this morning: scotland's finance secretary derek mackay quits hours before the budget. he admits he "behaved foolishly" in messaging a 16—year—old boy on social media. the government wants to rush through new rules in less than three weeks, in a bid to prevent a terrorist from being automatically released from prison. thejustice secretary insists it's not a knee—jerk reaction. there was a lot of muscle clenching, we are tough, this is all about punishment. this is about public protection. it is the firstjob of government to get that right, and that is what we are doing. president trump is cleared of abuse of power and obstructing congress after an impeachment trial which bitterly divided the united states.