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now on bbc news — hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. like many of europe's long established party of the left, the uk's labour party is in big trouble. last december ‘s election, letter was not just beaten, last december ‘s election, letter was notjust beaten, it was humiliated, losing its grip on a working class heartlands and the north. jeremy corbyn serving his notice as leader, the party is in the midst of picking a successor. my guest today will have a say about choice. leonard mccluskey leads the united movement, which is labour's biggest initial backup. you can save letter from a slow death? —— labour.

biggest initial backup. you can save letterfr election, v death? —— labour. biggest initial backup. you can save letter fr election, i de you —— labour. biggest initial backup. you can save letter fr election, i de you honestler. general election, did you honestly think labour was going to win? no. honestly no. i was predicting that borisjohnson would gain a workable majority. i must admit i was shocked by the level of that majority but it had become evident to me for some time that labour's adrift into being a perceived remain party was going to pay some problems, give it some real problems in our heartlands. so

you draw your own personal conclusions even before the votes had been cast? yes, very much so. in fa ct, had been cast? yes, very much so. in fact, i draw on those conclusions for over a year and i was attempting, along with others to try and persuade at the labour leadership not to slip into that remain area. and unfortunately we did pay the consequences. softly convenience that the people around jeremy corbyn in various different forms have all concluded that the problem wasn'tjeremy corbyn or anything to do with the policies or the division within it the party, its all to do with confusion over brexit. that seems a very convenient conclusion. it's not convenient and all those other issues you mention add to what happened in december but ifi add to what happened in december but if i can take you back tojune 2017, colin went to the electorate with a

radical manifesto and he came to within touching distance of power. he lost? he came with entrusting two touching distance of our. (crosstalk) that's not true stephen. the reality is, the conservatives have lost another five seats, labour would have been in power. only because the scottish national party had other sets and various others. labour, if you compare it with the glory years of tony blair, labour is underperforming. it underperformed this time around. in a humiliating fashion. there is no doubt this was a massive defeat. let me take you back to 2017, it's not true to say that labour were not within touching distance of power. if the tories have lost five more seats, would have lost five more seats, would have had jeremy corbyn in 10 downing street, a minority labour government yes but in terms of underperforming. let me make this clear, 2017 and indeed 2019, jeremy corbyn had more

votes for labour in england than it tony blairdid. votes for labour in england than it tony blair did. but let's talk about the disaster that was the december election of 2019. it was very evident that as we drifted more and more towards a remain party, that in oui’ more towards a remain party, that in our heartlands, there was a feeling of betrayal. there is no doubt about that. some of us tried to point that out and unfortunately, when i was a policy that resulted in the type of defeats that we have seen. when you say betrayal, you're tying it to brexit. maybe the betrayal is much bigger than that. working—class people feel betrayed by the labour party is a movement because it no longer speaks to them. let me quote to you extensive research done by lord ashcroft, he normally poles for the tory party but has just released a report. diagnosis of defeat, labour's turned to smell the coffee. here is what key finding. he says while away to have once been true

that while they were part of us, being a mantra for the labour party and its supporters, labour today seems to be mostly for students, the unemployed and middle—class radicals. it seemed not to understand ordinary working people. it seemed to disdain what they consider to be mainstream views and to disapprove of success. but stephen, the reality is, brexit caused all of that. are you trying to tell me that in two years between 2017 and 2019, suddenly there was this turnaround about jeremy corbyn's leadership would the radical nature of labour's policies. there wasn't. the one thing that happened was brexit and brexit played into everything. brexit played into everything. brexit played into everything. brexit played into the belief that labour had let them down in our heartlands. it played into the belief that jeremy corbyn it wasn't a strong enough letter and of elements added to that. it sounds so simple you put it, 10,000 people were surveyed by ashcroft. there were 18 focus

groups, precisely with people in labour seats who had voted labour and now were no longer prepared to do so. again, i quoted to you, it wasn't just brexit stop just do so. again, i quoted to you, it wasn'tjust brexit stop just listen to what ashcroft found. these people found labour couldn't be trusted with public finances, the level looked down on people who disagree with it, the labour was two left wing and failto with it, the labour was two left wing and fail to understand and listen to the people it was supposed to represent. at the point i keep coming back to... (crosstalk) of course it is brexit. the whole question about being betrayed and let down. entrusted with the public finances, policies that were too left—wing... with the public finances, policies that were too left-wing. .. so what happened, was the difference in 2017 and 2019. the credibility argument comes from the fact that in an attempt to break through brexit, labour produced the manifesto which had way too many policies in it. and a desperate hope that people would push exit too one—sided. there is no doubt that there were too many policies and not enough focus.

people began to disbelieve the credibility, that only two years previously, they were prepared to embrace enthusiastically. labour's radical policies taken in isolation as individual policies are popular with the general public. many, many poles have proved that but it was brexit and the perception that jeremy was not a strong leader, a divided party, that did for us in the december election. so when rebecca long bailey, candidate for leadership from you and your union have put their weight behind in at this leadership contest. when she says when asked how to rate carbon's leadership of the labour party that she would give him ten out of ten. what would you give him? i'm not going to play the silly playground games. the fact of the matter is... forget marks out of ten, do you believe... i'm going to answer you. i don't play those playground games.

the fact of the matter is, jeremy corbyn, made mistakes, like any leader. his major mistake goes back two and a half years. labour went to the electorate on the basis of respecting the 2016 referendum. i'm pledging to take us out of the european union. he should have stuck with that policy. he should have stayed with that policy is labour's policy but that he would have had to dealt with the half of the nation at that believed in remain and he should have argued the case that we still would have respected the 2016 recommend two referendum and say because out of europe but decided whether protected jobs and investment are dealt with any of the fears that remain as had. what is so striking about your analysis is that you pile the blame on a brexit and if and when a borisjohnson does indeed deliver over the next five yea rs indeed deliver over the next five years on getting brexit done it in that problem will have gone and so you believe that the way will be open for labour to perform brilliantly at the next election and when it. that is absolutely a

challenge. you do not acknowledge at all 0liver‘s evidence ashcroft has uncovered that many people inside labour have alluded to that right now, there is a much deeper fundamental disconnect between labour and many of its former supporters and at the so—called labour heartlands. .. and brexit is the reason for that. (crosstalk) you're talking about ashcroft‘s polling. my union poles its members, 20,000, to find out different levels of what they think about various issues. which is why a new way in advance that labour's position of being perceived as a remain party was going to be disastrous for us. in terms of many of the other policies, the issues, of the other policies, the issues, of nationalisation of railway is, royal mail, £10 minimum whale two wage, abolition of zero hour contracts, investment bank within oui’ contracts, investment bank within our region is that we can distribute

wealth properly. 0thers our region is that we can distribute wealth properly. others are popular with my members in my members of the general public. my members at a society. will get to your members are and you know better than i do but fewer than a quarter of british workers are now in unions. you are not representative of all workers across the uk. we are still the largest sector body within society and we still speak for organised the labour and all of and we still speak for organised the labourand all of our and we still speak for organised the labour and all of our major set is of the economy where density is high. and you claim to represent the working class and who's what weiner genuinely working class former labour minister said, alan johnston, started life as a postman. here's what he said today, he said corbett was a disaster on the doorstep stop everybody knew that he couldn't lead at the working class out of a paper bag. alan johnston has been saying that from the minutes that he abandoned it the working class. he's been part of a blair —ite move in oui’ been part of a blair —ite move in our party that is in many respects

led to a disillusionment with working people. alan has made no secret of the fact that he has never supported, never ever supported jeremy corbyn and a radical alternative that putjeremy and john mcdonald put forward and almost took us mcdonald put forward and almost took us to power. do you acknowledge that a lot of the people who joined at the labour party in its 2015 and then went on to votejeremy corbyn and form their own internal movement within the particle momentum. do you acknowledge, many of them, far from being working class and from the highlands were talking about, a metropolitan, university educated middle—class people who have every right to their voice in the labour party but have taken the labour party but have taken the labour party ina party but have taken the labour party in a different direction. this is nonsense, this is a nonsense. if you are challenging a jeremy corbyn with bringing young people into politics once again it than it he com plete politics once again it than it he complete guilty and thankfully. the labour party was dying. the labour

party was hollowed out in most of oui’ party was hollowed out in most of our constituencies throughout the uk. and what corbyn did, he reignited an enthusiasm that brought lots of people... it was lots of people, commentators, not necessarily you stephen, never telling us that young people were interested in politics and then suddenly, they saw something different and a fox to the labour party. these are decent, it is our future you want to dismiss them. you are. and try to make sense of the identity of the labour party today and how it is going to become electable again. let me ask you another question, did you vote for tony blair three times? and the general election, absolutely. wide do you, why do you len mcclusky, think tony blair was the most successful electoral politician in labour party history? there all kinds of reasons for that. try and condense it down to a brief answer. he felt the pulse of the nation. he felt that the pulse of the nation,

he gave a new, bright future and of course, he gave one of the best nights of my life to me in 19 97 when he won from the tory government. (crosstalk) jeremy corbyn, we knew he wasn't going to win the election. you don't want to dismiss that the fa ct of you don't want to dismiss that the fact of what happened in 2017. you wa nt to fact of what happened in 2017. you want to dismiss that the fact that since 1997, when i was delighted that tony had won and in previous elections, we went on a slide downwards. inequality, as a group, we lost a million jobs under downwards. inequality, as a group, we lost a millionjobs under a new labour, a million manufacturing jobs under new labour. and so there was a need for change. ed miliband tried to bring it in and in my opinion, he was slightly too timid in doing that and what mcdonald and corbyn came along to do was offer an alternative stop a radical alternative. how many times did you and i and everybody

here on the doorstep, hear that all of the politicians were the same. but you can't choose between them, between labour, tory and mcdonald did, was put forward a genuine alternative to see whether people like to be alternative. that is democracy, that is a good thing. as ajohn ashworth, democracy, that is a good thing. as a john ashworth, shadow minister revealed in a later phone call, he couldn't selljeremy corbyn on the doorsteps. people didn't like him. he said the situation was dire. of course it was. jamie became toxic in many of our working areas because they perceived —— jeremy, that they perceived he betrayed them on brexit. i want to touch on other issues with the bureaucrat, with the benefit of hindsight, the way you dismissed claims that emerged years ago of anti—semitism and at the labour party. i never dismissed that. you once described it as mood music and peddled by people out to underminejeremy music and peddled by people out to undermine jeremy corbyn. definitely

was. you think it was as they stick to beat corbyn with. festival, the use of the terminology mood music, was something i would not do again. if that caused offence, i'm sorry. it certainly did. are trying to point out was that there were individuals within it the labour party on the right wing of the labour party and the establishment of party who saw it as an opportunity to undermine jeremy corbyn. they looked for any reason to do that. (crosstalk) let me... as they continue argument you don't seem to have learned to... that i do nonsense and if you let me answer, because it is very important. i believe that the issue of anti—semitism is the most important thing in our society and the most evil thing in our society. i have ought against it all my life, including physically on the streets when i was younger. the reality is that some people who want to attack corbyn at quite disgracefully, used

anti—semitism to do that. what we have to do is make certain that all anti—semites in the labour party are kicked out and we have to fight against it in our society. and i will be at the forefront of the. late last year, the jewish will be at the forefront of the. late last year, thejewish labour movement published a compelling 47 page dossierfrom 70 movement published a compelling 47 page dossier from 70 whistleblowers compiling testimony that was shocking, the way the people inside the labour party have been called subhuman, cockroaches, child killers, there are wall catalogues by the jewish labour movement. killers, there are wall catalogues by thejewish labour movement. you responded to that report by saying and i'm quoting you, i am disappointed with thejewish labour movement. the true underlying this is that they actually don't support jeremy corbyn. you persist in this idea that anti—semitism and all of those charges are simply being used. body satisfying? that's absolute nonsense. if they said again is to make this point, because i'm not prepared to allow you or anybody else to try to class me as somebody

who minimises anti—semitism. all my life i have fought against it. the reality is that within the labour party which has had an influx of hundreds of thousands of members, there are anti—semites. and we need to root out. so some of those things that you've just quoted are despicable and i would root them out and keep them out, not only of the labour party, but out of society. they are pariahs. the reality is that we need to work with the jewish labour movement, we need to work with otherjewish bodies in order to make certain that we read ourselves of that. the hrc are currently investigating to see whether or not there is any institutional anti—semitism in the labour party. by anti—semitism in the labour party. by believe that they will find that there is in. but why are whatever their recommendations come up with, labour should introduce. this will be hugely important for the next labour

leader. you have put your backing behind rebecca long—bailey. she has been called the continuity candidate for corbyn, because she says she thinks corbyn's leadership was absolutely great. all the signs are, at the moment, she is not the frontrunner, keir starmer is the clear front—runner. and a frontrunner, keir starmer is the clearfront—runner. and a lot frontrunner, keir starmer is the clear front—runner. and a lot of unions, unlike yours, have decided to back keir starmer. and a lot of unions have backed becky. this nonsense of attempting to divide the trade unions won't work. the three candidates who were running for leadership are all excellent. to be fair, there are four. and i hope emily gets on the ballot paper, but if she doesn't the three that are on our first class good people, and all of them will lead the labour party properly. and all of them will get my support. but at the end of the day, when push comes to shove, you can only choose one. my union has taken the view that becky is the

best place to win back our heartlands and to talk to the rest of the nation about the aspirational views that she has for everyone. this idea that she is a continuity corbin. that's an insult to her. she is an individual in her own right. she is demonstrating now her views, her priorities, her vision is a difference in some regards to jeremy's and she is notjeremy corbyn. she will be her own individuals. much of this is around ideas of collectability and radicalism. you have made it clear to me that labour has got to continue to be radical. your favoured candidate for deputy, richard berghan, went so far as to warn labour party members that they shouldn't be seduced by collectability and abandon radicalism, as though radicalism was clearly more important, ideological purity more important right now and thinking about getting elected stop is that sensible or dangerous?”

think it's misguided. the reality is this argument within labour has taken place in the 50 years that i have been a member. can you have power without principles? 0r have been a member. can you have power without principles? or are principles more important than power? of course, i believe in what they call principal pragmatism. we need a labour government and we need a party that speaks to the nation, that can connect with ordinary working people right throughout our nation. i believe in five years' time, when we have another election, labour can time, when we have another election, labourcan win time, when we have another election, labour can win back those seats that they've lost and start to give hope. and that's really what this is all about, giving hope to our nation. we are the fifth richest nation in the world. 13 million of our people live below the poverty line. it world. 13 million of our people live below the poverty line. 4 million of our kids, stephen, go to school every single day hungry stop is that the type of britain that we want? we step over homeless people in our streets, is that the type of britain

we want, because it is not the type of britain i want. the interesting challenge you've got is that boris johnson, in his first few days in power, clearly has a part —— vision for his leadership which is going to reach out to these traditional labour voters. yes. he talk about a bit in spending in the nhs, his document massive borrowing to build infrastructure across the nation. he talk about, interestingly, taxing the mansions of the ritz, taxing the rich people's pensions. the labour party is going to have to fight on the centre ground to beat this guy. well, the reality is we will have to wait to see what the prime minister does. let mejust wait to see what the prime minister does. let me just use your programme to say, as the leader of britain and ireland's largest union fly will be delighted to work with the prime minister and the government adjuster they have for the last ten years. do you think you can? of course they can! it depends on how the government response. remember since data's years, the edict was that no tory prime minister should meet a trade union leader and they never

have. john major, cameron, it was only when theresa may was in some difficulty that she called on us to come to talk to her. i would meet the prime minister tomorrow, he is a busy man, they already meet his ministers, i have a relationship with stephen barclay, had a very good relationship with greg... we know that. have you spoken to boris johnson? i have not. they have written to him. i have no doubt at an appropriate time he will get back to me. i have just an appropriate time he will get back to me. i havejust outline an appropriate time he will get back to me. i have just outline some of the policies that seemed directed at winning and keeping working—class voters. absolutely. boris johnson has also said he will take time to legislate to ensure that strikes in public transport have to do allow for a public transport have to do allow fora minimum public transport have to do allow for a minimum service to be maintained. he will make all out strikes illegal. what are you going to do about that? i'm in, the reality is, we will have to wait to see what these proposals are. —— i mean. a clever move by the prime minister would be to embrace trade unions and work with trade unions.

think it would be a mistake if he tries to kind of attack trade unions once again, some of his have done. he doesn't need to do that.” understand what you're saying, but maybe there is a feeling a government that trade unions aren't that relevant anymore. we talked all about —— earlier about a quarter of all... if they are not that relevant all... if they are not that relevant all the more —— anymore, and reid is in the media, why do they keep attacking us? if we're not relevant anymore why don't they let us quietly wither on the vine? the reason they don't, stephen, is because they know we are relevant. we are the first and last a defence for ordinary working people stop and we are the largest voluntary set the body in our society. and we should be dealt with respect, just like trade unions in the rest of europe are dealt with respectfully by their governments. that's what should happen in this country. and they appeal to the prime minister to do exactly that, not to make the m ista kes exactly that, not to make the mistakes of his predecessors. you've let unite for a long time. ethical

dilemmas you do and in 2022. there is some speculation you have had another mike person. are you going to go in 2020 west you will have to wait to see what my executives, they are the people i will be talking to, and, frankly, you will have to put up and, frankly, you will have to put up with me a little bit longer. len mccluskey, we have got to went right there. thank you very much for being on hardtalk. you very much. hello there. there really is an awful lot of weather being thrown our way over the next few days. eventually we will get into something milder and wetter from the atlantic. right now it's cold air and a cold

wind driving across the uk and that's putting in all these shower clouds answer more to come, mainly for the northern half of the uk where, earlier on, of course, it was particularly treacherous across parts of southern scotland. now the winds are easing down a little bit, allowing temperatures to fall away close to if not below freezing. ice more likely across scotland, northern ireland, and north—west england. this is where we are seeing showers continuing overnight and into the morning. and again, snow, even to low levels for a while. gradually through the day we will see the winds easing down a bit. we will also see the showers become fewer, more places turning dry, particularly northern ireland and much of england and wales during the afternoon. some sunshine around here. temperatures similar to what we had on tuesday, but because it won't be as windy it probably won't feel as cold. now towards the south—west we will see some changes later on in the day as the cloud thickens and we start to see some showers coming in here. that's ahead of this main rainband that sweeps its way eastwards, heading northwards it then meets the cold air and slows down.

so we will find a mixture of rain and some snow, even to lower levels for a while overnight before lifting onto the hills as that wetter weather peters out. to the south will have some showers, gales running through the english channel, temperatures may make double figures across the southernmost parts of england. but if you are stuck under that cold, wet weather in the north—east of england and temperatures only four degrees at best. it should be drying off overnight and by the time we get to early friday may well be some ice, some frost, and if you box of mist and fog, too. it won't be as cold though for northern ireland, because here winds will be picking up by the morning and we will have some rain, too. the stronger winds will push the rain eastward, so more likely of the mountains of scotland this time. the rain turning later as it runs across england and wales. but because it's a southerly windless temperatures will be higher. it will be turning milder everywhere. probably not much rain for eastern england until the evening is that we weather front move through. and then we look out into the atlantic, deepening area of low pressure heading towards iceland. this is storm dennis.

probably not quite as severe as storm ciara was last weekend, but this weekend we are expecting some widespread gales, the winds could be still gusting, 60—70 mph, the biggest impact is likely to be across england and wales from the strength of the wind and some more rain, which will be heavy at times, and that will lead to some more flooding.

i'm katty kay, live in new hampshire, where the polls have now closed in the democratic primary. the the democratic primary. polls in this state have now the polls in this state have now closed and the earliest returns suggest it is a 3—way race at the very top was not bernie sanders on the top and amy klobuchar and pete buttigieg vying for second place. i'm kasia madera in london. also in the programme, as the world health 0rganization calls the coronavirus "a very grave threat", we hear about the businessman who'd been working in singapore now linked to 11 cases.